Salaat includes kneeling and bowing
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Peace Tanty
Great post
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Peace,
I've read that book before, and it provides some very interesting perspectives on the concept of submission ("islaam". However, some of the ideas mentioned are incorrect and inconsistent with Arabic language and grammar. I've found some incorrect views concerning 'salaat' (which the author calls 'sol-laa', the worship of the God, and even the consumption of pig meat... Overall, the book is good for anyone who wishes to do an indepth study of the practice of 'Islam' outside of the traditional box, but it's certainly not flawless, and it has it's own errors and inconsistencies. I do, however, agree with the author's objectives in separating the modern concept of what a "muslim" is and does, and also exposing the gross mistranslations of many interpreters to fit their concept of the 'Arab religion'...
Peace,
Ahmad
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The context for interpretation is the Qur'an. The context for application is situational.
You say the same thing. Quran is a Guide for any situation present and future. If any deviation to this, please explain.
So given that context or situation, would you seek to redefine the Qur'anic position on homosexuality?
I feel you got me wrong! The content of any text is context. Quran is not an ordinary text book that speaks of hearsay but Scripture of eternal truth of past, present and future; and the hereafter. This eternal truth is the contextual verses of Quran from each of which we have to derive the way out of all inequitable situation. Such is the Guidance in the Quran for those who understand. What you are asking me is "would I seek to redefine the Qur'anic position on homosexuality?"
I seek to get at the Guidance from the verses with reference to the context to safeguard myself from the situation surrounding me. A situation is the real happening or incidence. But when you text it, or refer it, or narrate it, it becomes a context. This is all the difference between the situation and context. I believe you get me correct now when I say If the context is not situational, then Quran is useless as Guidance."
How about if you were fooled into believing that homosexuality is genetic? (There is ironclad evidence which refutes this by the way, twin studies).
Relate the situation to the context or content of Quran get at the Guidance; never allow yourself to be fooled by the twin studies or any number of multifolds to their rotten twin studies.
Would you then say "oh well, Allah cannot punish people if they have no control over what they do" and then go about using that situation to change the guidance of the Qur'an on this? So on and so on.
Is there any reasons for such question, especially when you are on the Right Course?
Salaam,
.]
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Peace to All!
Not here to argue with anyone, or to say who is right or who is wrong.
But I take "We appointed Abraham to establish the Shrine "You shall not idolize any other god beside Me, and purify My shrine for those who visit it, those who live near it, and those who bow and prostrate." (Qur?an, 2226) and "Perform prayer (Salaat) and give the alms and bow with those who bow". (Qur?an, 243) to mean 3 things, the shrine is a physical place as it can be visited and lived near and those who visit it bow and prostrate,and charity is real. Nothing here suggests that any of these things are only spiritual, if prayer,bowing,kneeling etc. are spiritual only, then so would giving alms...
There is another surah I wanted to quote, but cant recall it at the time. It states if we are in danger or distress that we may perform salat while setting or riding or to some effect. This to me means that salat is physical, because if it were just a mental/spiritual practice, there would be no need to describe it being done one way then allowing for it to be done another way if need arises.
Sorry to jump in the thread. -
Salaam,
The last phrase in 2226 is war-rukka?is-sujud, which means those who humble themselves consenting. The religionists have mangled the meaning here and say it means to physically bow and prostrate. It embroils a regimented body movement only worthy of pagan rituals.
Physical bowing and prostrating have become the critical components of the body movements in the Arab religion. Without these pantomimed movements their rituals will become redundant and useless. They believe the instruction of these body movements were ordained by God by virtue of 2125 and 2226.
For many centuries, non-Arabs who have mastered the Arabic language have allowed themselves to be subjugated by the religionists without verifying simple words by reference to other verses in the Quran. Having discovered this, I feel sorry for the Muslims who perform these silly body movements without verifying the correctness of their understanding from their own Book.
In the Quran the word sujud means to consent or to agree to something. The religionists have consistently said that in many verses of the Quran this word does not mean a physical act of prostration, but they try to make it an exception when the word is used to refer to human beings. They realise it is ridiculous to say the sun, the moon, the stars, and the trees prostrate themselves to God when the Quran uses the same word sujud.
Qor-laqol-insan a?lama-hul bayan ash-shamsu wal-qomaror bil-husban wal-najmu wal-sajaru yasjudan was-sama?a ro-fa?aha wa-watho?a mi-zan. (553-7)
He created the human. He teaches him clearly. The sun and the moon with calculated movements, and the stars and the trees are all consenting (yasjudan) and the skies, which He raised with a just balance. (553-7)
God created human beings and He teaches them clearly that the movements of the sun, the moon, and the stars in the sky are on their own consent (yasjudan). This word is derived from the root word sajada, which means to give consent or to agree to something or to admit something is true. Perhaps the religionists and their Arabic scholars may want to describe how the sun and the moon prostrate to God before they insist that everyone should prostrate physically to the Lord of the Universe.
In the Arab religion they say the word ruk?u means bowing. Again, this is another misconception propagated by the religionists.
The word ruk?u means to humble oneself, to lower oneself in humility. There is absolutely no verse in the Quran which says a committed man must bow down physically at specific times of the day.
Woe on that day to those who lied. And when they are told to be humble (irka?au) they do not humble themselves (laa yar ka?uun) (7747-4
Both irka?au and yar ka?uun derive from the root ruk?u. A person?s sincerity is judged by his humbleness not through his actions of bowing up and down.
The Quran narrates the history of Mary who was about to receive news from God. God transformed the energy to appear as a perfect man telling her to give her consent and to humble herself with those who humble themselves in accepting the news, she was told
O Mary, Surely God has chosen you and He purified you (tho-hara) and He raised you above all the women in the world. O Mary, obey God and give your consent (sujudi) and humble (ruk?u) yourself with those who humble (ruk?u) themselves.? (342-43)
She humbled herself to accept the news. But it was strange to her that she could possibly conceive a son as a chaste girl. So she questioned the human-looked energy
She said, ?How could I have a son, when no man has touched me?? Then she was told, ?God creates whatever He wills. To have anything done, He simply says to it, ?Be? and it is?. (346)
Mary is not being asked to ritually or physically bow and prostrate with anyone whilst listening to the news.
http//mentalbondageinthenameofgod.wordpress.com/2009/01/06/ruk%E2%80%99u-does-not-mean-physical-bowing/
http//mentalbondageinthenameofgod.wordpress.com/2009/01/06/sujud-does-not-mean-physical-prostration/
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People cant see spiritual kneeling and bowing, sorry! Even the Bible states that David prayed three times a day and that he kneeled and bowed. The Hebrew means exactly that, to physically do them. The Greek Gospels are similar when it says Jesus fell to the ground and prayed. He didnt fall spiritually, he fell physically. The Jewish and Christian bibles also mention prostrations, which are physical acts aswell. Some of these prayers were actually viewd by others, again someone else cannot see a "spiritual/mental" prayer.
Im not saying we shouldnt be in a spiritual state, but there are physical actions involved, nor am I saying it should be regimental like the Sunni and Shiite sects. (I like the http//www.quranists.org/prayer.html websites explaination).
To humble themselves consenting in 2226, to me, implies that we willingly consent, not because we are told or commanded to do it. We do it because we want to please God. And of course there are some places in the Quran, as is there is in the Judeo-Christian Bible, that have words that are used as metaphors and symbolic, but that doesnt mean that when they are used to decribe a physical act that they are just spiritual or symbolic acts. Thats the way I see it and some may not, thats fine.
Peace
Kadeen -
Salaam,
I see so much now that qur'an aloners take the chance (due to rightly discarding hadith) to try and discard anything else they dislike in Islam under the guise that it is from Hadith. Woman's dress and place, salaat, halal and haram food etc etc...
There is a direct trajectory towards liberalisation and ease, even when there is no warrant or evidence. Mental gymnastics have become the norm.
I have on my site www.detailedquran.com papers on salaat, food and dress code and inshallah there will be others forthcoming in the future (when exactly, I cannot be sure).
As this section of the forum is about salaat, please read my salaat document on that site and give me logical and evidential reasons why you oppose salaat as an act of remembrance and worship which involves standing, bowing and kneeling.
I look forward to your responses.
Peace,
Second generation followers of prophet Muhammad discarded Salat. Salat is NOT performed by the so called Muslims for about 1300 years. Salat does not include bowing or prostrating. Method of Salat as taught by God is entirely different from what so called Muslims think and believe to be and followed by them. God willing, I shall post an article detailing the true method of Salat with requisite scriptural evidence.
Peace,
K.Vivekanandan
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Peace Vivek,
Second generation followers of prophet Muhammad discarded Salat. Salat is NOT performed by the so called Muslims for about 1300 years. Salat does not include bowing or prostrating. Method of Salat as taught by God is entirely different from what so called Muslims think and believe to be and followed by them.
So, you're saying that Muhammad and his followers were taught a different religion than those before him? It's very clear in the Torah that G-d commanded His worshippers to bow and prostrate in prayer, and all of the prophets and scribes did this, including Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, Jeremiah, Daniel, and Jesus. In fact, Ezra is recorded as teaching the Jews to pray on many different occasions several times throughout the day, but to "bow and prostrate" themselves to Hashem (G-d) three times per day in formal prayer, just as Jews and some Muslims do today... Saying that G-d told Muhammad to perform salaat a different way other than what was already decreed to the early submitters is alleging that Muhammad learned and taught a different religion than his predecessors. This is not in harmony with the scriptures, especially considering the fact that Muhammad was told to follow the "religion of Abraham".
Now, you said the Muslims stopped performing the proper salaat 1300 years ago... Okay... So, where did they learn their "incorrect" practice of salaat? Why is it so similar to the prayers of the other monotheistic doctrines (i.e. Judaism and Nazaritism)? Why does the Qur'aan speak of bowing and prostrating in a figurative ("spiritual" sense, while the Torah, Prophets, and Writings (Tanakh) speak of the exact same actions in a literal sense? What made the Muslims change the way they were already performing salaat, the proper way, 1300 years ago? And what does the "true" salaat look like?
By alleging that your method to be correct, then you are forming the implication that (1) the method prescribed in the Torah is wrong or (2) the scribes, rabbis, and believers have been misinterpreting the scriptural command to "bow and prostrate" for thousands of years...
Peace,
Ahmad
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Incense burning lol.. btw the correct meaning of Allahu Akbar is actually "God is the greatest".