Cutting the thief's hand- the debate raging on
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Salamun alaykum
Is it wrong for me to presume that the main thrust and emphasis of The Qur'an when it comes to legal matters is Justice ? Most if not all of us here are familiar with the Qur'an verse 318 . So if you think that cutting off the hands of thieves is just in your heart of hearts ( using all your faculties ) then , may The Lord have mercy on all of us . Just because we are told to judge in accordance with Scriptural Laws as per 544-50 , does it mean that we have to implement the literal meanings of these laws however inhumane they are ?
We know that all legal systems in the world stem from one basic law i.e. The Contitution of each and every country and the legislations en-acted must be in accord with the spirit if not the letter of the constitution . So what is inadequate about the Qur'an in setting up legal frame work and justice systems ? As long as the law enacted comply with the spirit and letter of The Qur'an ( based on Justice , Fairness and Compassion ) there should not be any resistance from the people where this supposed legal system is applied .
My own understanding and observation of hands and arms of thieves being cut off was in Saudi Arabia some years ago , then the thief's hand will only be cut off if and when the value of the stolen item was more than 5000 Saudi Rial and increases in severity such as up to the elbow and arm below the shoulder if the value of the stolen goods reach a certain threshold . The carrying out of these punishments were done every Friday and people who wish to go and watch can do so . You can ask any Saudis living in Mecca about this as I was only there for two months and spoken to a few hundred local residents about this matter . Actually , I met a couple of guess workers who were just being released from police custody with their finger nails pulled out for a crime of reading a People's magazine with pictures of women in bikinis and other female pictures considered pornographic by the police in Mecca . So , I hope "The Legal Framework" work out from The Qur'an is thoroughly examined by expert Jurists and ethicists before implementing it .
Peace
almarh0m
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Salamun alaykum
Is it wrong for me to presume that the main thrust and emphasis of The Qur'an when it comes to legal matters is Justice ? Most if not all of us here are familiar with the Qur'an verse 318 . So if you think that cutting off the hands of thieves is just in your heart of hearts ( using all your faculties ) then , may The Lord have mercy on all of us . Just because we are told to judge in accordance with Scriptural Laws as per 544-50 , does it mean that we have to implement the literal meanings of these laws however inhumane they are ?
We know that all legal systems in the world stem from one basic law i.e. The Contitution of each and every country and the legislations en-acted must be in accord with the spirit if not the letter of the constitution . So what is inadequate about the Qur'an in setting up legal frame work and justice systems ? As long as the law enacted comply with the spirit and letter of The Qur'an ( based on Justice , Fairness and Compassion ) there should not be any resistance from the people where this supposed legal system is applied .
My own understanding and observation of hands and arms of thieves being cut off was in Saudi Arabia some years ago , then the thief's hand will only be cut off if and when the value of the stolen item was more than 5000 Saudi Rial and increases in severity such as up to the elbow and arm below the shoulder if the value of the stolen goods reach a certain threshold . The carrying out of these punishments were done every Friday and people who wish to go and watch can do so . You can ask any Saudis living in Mecca about this as I was only there for two months and spoken to a few hundred local residents about this matter . Actually , I met a couple of guess workers who were just being released from police custody with their finger nails pulled out for a crime of reading a People's magazine with pictures of women in bikinis and other female pictures considered pornographic by the police in Mecca . So , I hope "The Legal Framework" work out from The Qur'an is thoroughly examined by expert Jurists and ethicists before implementing it .
Peace
almarh0m
Salaam Brother
Thanks for this information. I am not sure if these punishment are the reason that the crime rate is very low in Saudi Arabia. It may be some other reason.British
Total crimes 6,523,706
http//www.nationmaster.com/country/uk-united-kingdom/cri-crimeMaxico
Total crimes 1,516,029
http//www.nationmaster.com/country/mx-mexico/cri-crimeSaudi Arabia
Total crimes 84,599
http//www.nationmaster.com/country/sa-saudi-arabia/cri-crimeRegards
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peace,
My own understanding and observation of hands and arms of thieves being cut off was in Saudi Arabia some years ago , then the thief's hand will only be cut off if and when the value of the stolen item was more than 5000 Saudi Rial and increases in severity such as up to the elbow and arm below the shoulder if the value of the stolen goods reach a certain threshold .
Thanks for this information.
As an aside, quite often when I study a certain topic or review content, I often see or get an idea of how the traditional position came about. For example, with the hand cutting, taking into account the theme of equivalence in punishment, that is likely the reason the Saudis (or whatever they were basing this on) set a minimum of 5000 Rial. That is not my view however, but I can see where this reasoning might stem from.
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5000 Riyals can be stolen only from the king and king's men; and from the princes and the princes' men; and from the shaiks. So it is crime! But if from a poor who could earn only 10 or 20 riyals per day for their day to day living is stolen by a thief, it is no crime, even if it meant costing the life of him and his family. Why is there so much difficulty to consider a crime as a crime whether it is a boot from the poor; or a booty from the rich?
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Salaam Brother Simple
JK said "
You saidI agree with you in principle. But unfortunately their attitude towards Quran is absolutely opposite.
Take the example of the verse under discussion.No doubt word "Qata3a " has been used in literal and metaphorical meanings
No doubt word "Yad" has been used in literal and metaphorical meaning.
But the Phrase "Qa3tul Yad" has never been used in metaphorical meaning in whole arabic literature including standard classical arabic dictionaries.It is exactly like this if someone says
-Allah has given "ilm" to prophet Muhammad PBUH
-Allah has told "Ghaib" to Prophet Muhammad PBUhSo Prophet Muhammad PBUH has become "Alimul Ghaib" (maazallah).
I need just a single example in any Classical arabic dictionary or Arabic literature that "qat3ul Yad " is being used in a metaphorical sense. You will see certain other phrases like "qat3ul lisan " qat3ul Nahr" being used in metaphorical sense but not qat3ul yad.
Unless the linguists use that word or phrase in metaphorical sense you can put your ideas in the mouth of the language.
You cannot translate a book as a tiger. You cannot translate a ship as an owl.I wonder if the word means hands any where in the quran.
So did the ladies cut thier hands? not a chance.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8731.0
It either means power/ strength or it is a metaphorical expression- an idiom.
Does God have hands bro? you think so ...... I think they are mentioned somewhere in the quran arn't they?
In other languages you have idioms like "Don't bite the hand that feeds you"
"The broken man", In urdu you say "he cut his own hands off", or "He broke his legs"
"cut off your nose to spite your face" e.t.c
So does God Allmighty want us to cut people's thingies off wow
peace
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Salamun alaykum
The sad thing about "Cutting the thief's hand" is that, this seemingly cruel law / punishment for the thieves do not act as deterrence for other future offenders as we can see these punishments are being carried out on a weekly basis , although largely unreported by the media . Most of the offenders appear to be migrants from other muslim countries and a lot of them were/are illegal people who arrived on visa for Umrah then overstayed . Unfortunately for these people being illegal migrants , finding regular employments are extremely difficult and even if they managed to find one , he or she is likely to be exploited or abused by their master . So their plight is exponential and the only easy way out is to steal with all its consequences .
My personal opinion on this cruel punishment is that it is not necessary and it is not effective as a solution to a socio-legal problems . All these cutting of limbs do is create permanent beggars who carry stigmas for the rest of their lives as they would be unwilling to go back to their country of origins voluntarily . These amputees ex thieves beg during the Hajj and Ramadhan Umrah seasons and save their money to keep them going till the next hajj and ramadhan . So what this law does is solve one problem by creating other more serious ones . Should you go for a visit during Hajj season you would be able to see them and talk to them around Mina , Arafah and Musdalifah . I have never seen so many amputees and grotesquely deformed people until I went to Mecca as an individual hajj ( un-attached to any Jama'ah ) to prove that what I learn from The Qur'an about Hajj is correct .
Peace
almarh0m
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Salamun alaykum
The sad thing about "Cutting the thief's hand" is that, this seemingly cruel law / punishment for the thieves do not act as deterrence for other future offenders ....
Nor does it affect thieves embezzling millions and trillions of riyals of the people's monies
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I wonder if the word means hands any where in the quran.
So did the ladies cut thier hands? not a chance.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8731.0
It either means power/ strength or it is a metaphorical expression- an idiom.
Does God have hands bro? you think so ...... I think they are mentioned somewhere in the quran arn't they?
In other languages you have idioms like "Don't bite the hand that feeds you"
"The broken man", In urdu you say "he cut his own hands off", or "He broke his legs"
"cut off your nose to spite your face" e.t.c
So does God Allmighty want us to cut people's thingies off wow
peace
Dear Simple
Every language has its own dimensions. Rules and principles of one language cannot be applied necessarily on other languages. ARabic language is such a language with the same alphabets ,if you change the voweling ,the entire meaning is changed which is not present in Urdu or English.
I still stand
Any evidence from classical Arabic literature or Classical Arabic dicitionary using "qat3ul Yad " in the metaphorical sense.
If no then all other arguements are just wastage of time.
Regards -
Dear Simple
Every language has its own dimensions. Rules and principles of one language cannot be applied necessarily on other languages. ARabic language is such a language with the same alphabets ,if you change the voweling ,the entire meaning is changed which is not present in Urdu or English.
I still stand
Any evidence from classical Arabic literature or Classical Arabic dicitionary using "qat3ul Yad " in the metaphorical sense.
If no then all other arguements are just wastage of time.
RegardsBro, we can't take a Classical Arabic dicitionary for a god neither as not everything may be there!
Look at this and let us use a little reasoning;
070.030
YUSUFALI Except with their wives and the (captives) whom their right hands possess,- for (then) they are not to be blamed,The translation is faulty, but "whom their right hands posses" are they truly in the palm of your hand or something else?
067.001
YUSUFALI Blessed be He in Whose hands is Dominion; and He over all things hath Power;-Is the dominion in the physical hands of something? or does it merely mean the one who has the ultimate power of the dominion?
peace
God Bless.
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Bro, we can't take a Classical Arabic dicitionary for a god neither as not everything may be there!
Look at this and let us use a little reasoning;
070.030
YUSUFALI Except with their wives and the (captives) whom their right hands possess,- for (then) they are not to be blamed,The translation is faulty, but "whom their right hands posses" are they truly in the palm of your hand or something else?
067.001
YUSUFALI Blessed be He in Whose hands is Dominion; and He over all things hath Power;-Is the dominion in the physical hands of something? or does it merely mean the one who has the ultimate power of the dominion?
peace
God Bless.
Brother Salaam
As I told you in my first post.No doubt word "Qata3a " has been used in literal and metaphorical meanings
No doubt word "Yad" has been used in literal and metaphorical meaning.
But the Phrase "Qa3tul Yad" has never been used in metaphorical meaning in whole arabic literature including standard classical arabic dictionaries.Neither Arabic dictionaries nor "Yousaf Ali " is God (Agreed).
Regards
