Exposing The 3 Salaat Theory
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Peace all, Samia
In a previous post I've put this
Salam to all,about Salat AL WUSTA what do you think about this verse 629
Yusuf Ali O ye who believe! when the call is proclaimed to prayer on Friday (the Day of Assembly), hasten earnestly to the Remembrance of Allah, and leave off business (and traffic) that is best for you if ye but knew!
This can only be during the day, not al fajr neither at sun down it has to be somewhere in the middle.
This is to reject the assertion of 2 prayers a day!Allah best knows
I know we are talking about the congregational prayer occuring during the day.
So for you the congregational prayer is an extra prayer?????
Peace
I agree with you that this disproves the 2 salaat theory, since this (to me) CLEARLY points out a prayer being during the day.
Peace
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Peace everyone,
Fajr and isha salats are to be performed in solitude without the person engaged in them being interrupted. This is the opposite of the congregational salaat, where it's done with others, during the day and it should interrupt business.
Evidence from the qur'aan to support this statement will be appreciated. This is completely false as far as my understanding of these salaats is concerned. Both these salaats can be performed alone or in congregation.
"On day of gathering" and "cease all business" in 629 does not mean "during the daytime".
In many countries many businesses are ROUTINELY conducted until late at night so "day of gathering" and "cease all business" in 629 does not necessarily mean daytime. The 3isha salaat can interrupt the business being conducted at dusk. "Yawm" does not mean only daytime but refers to the whole 24 hour day or a time period as used in the qur'aan. The word for daytime is "nahaar" as used in the qur'aan.
I do not think it has to be done everyday, (and interrupt business everyday), but on the day of gathering. So, yes, it's an extra salaat (not daily, if this is what you mean).
No, it does not necessarily mean an extra salaat. That is just a personal conjecture. I am conducting business on the day of gathering, and during dusk I hear the call to the 3isha salaat; I should cease my business and hasten to the salaat. This is what I hear in 629.
It seems very odd that God would mention "yawm al-jum'a" and then not give us any clue as to when that day is. In my understanding He does tell us which day is the day of gathering/assembly and that is when all mankind gathers/assembles for hajj. Please see the following post
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12309.msg96387#msg96387
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Salaam all, herbman
verse 3017
So (give) glory to Allah, when ye reach eventide and when ye rise in the morning;
I would interpret it as glory be to God....
But that's not the problem, as one can understand it the way you put it. It's the phrase of which is an expression meaning "all the time". It's still in use in the expression " " (morning and evening) and it means all the day; all the time.My argument for 2 salaats is verse 2458 where the fajr and 3ishaa salat are mentioned by name during a whole day of an average person. No other slaat is ever mentioned by name in the whole quraan.
I agree. It says Glory to God and not glorify God although it could be understood that way but thats not what it says.
However the 2 salat is not necessarily fajr and evening as there are verses that says to pray during the ends of the day till nightfall. Fajr could be the begining of one the ends and evening is the end of the other end. Between them is a long time. So even if you take 2 salats, it does not mean fajr and Isha, it could be morning and afternoon. The verse about the two ends of the day tells more since lays what are the times of the salat while the verse about fajr and isha simply says how the prophet and his companions were performing at the time. There is nothing that say it has to be at those specific time.
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I take it as fajr and isha, being the only necessary prayers, and that these are the ends of the day. I also take it that the prayer times extend into the darkness of night that approximate these two times. So, night before sunrise, sunrise twilight and sunrise is the time for fajr. And as the sunsets, sunset twilight and the night directly after sunset is the time for 'Isha. That's how I see it.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace Anwar,
I take it as fajr and isha, being the only necessary prayers, and that these are the ends of the day. I also take it that the prayer times extend into the darkness of night that approximate these two times. So, night before sunrise, sunrise twilight and sunrise is the time for fajr. And as the sunsets, sunset twilight and the night directly after sunset is the time for 'Isha. That's how I see it.
Thank you for this understanding. This would explain the usage of "zulafan min al-layl" in 11114 meaning 3 or more parts of the night
2 parts for isha = sunset twilight + darkness of night close to sunset twilight
2 parts for fajr = sunrise twilight + preceding darkness close to the sunrise twilightIn addition to that, the two ends of the daytime have to be the ones approximating the near parts of the night. The usage of "atraaf al-nahaar" in 20130 implies there are 3 or more edges of the daytime and 11114 clarifies which two edges of the daytime; the ones approximating the near parts of the night.
Peace and The God bless.
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Peace Anwar,
Thank you for this understanding. This would explain the usage of "zulafan min al-layl" in 11114 meaning 3 or more parts of the night
2 parts for isha = sunset twilight + darkness of night close to sunset twilight
2 parts for fajr = sunrise twilight + preceding darkness close to the sunrise twilightIn addition to that, the two ends of the daytime have to be the ones approximating the near parts of the night. The usage of "atraaf al-nahaar" in 20130 implies there are 3 or more edges of the daytime and 11114 clarifies which two edges of the daytime; the ones approximating the near parts of the night.
Peace and The God bless.
fajr and Isha is the time the poeple then prayed. The Koran did not say thats when to pray. It tells us when to pray as at the two ends of the nahar, meaning daylight, and then to night. The two ends of daylight are morning and afternoon. Fajr is the earliets time for that and Isha are the latest time. Thats how I see it. Since fajr is still morning and night is still after daylight. The the Koran mentions the two extremes. It does not mean its only two, it just mentions the two extremes. Thats how I see it.
And when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; (now his windows were open in his chamber toward Jerusalem and he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime. Daniel 6-10
, - ; , . Psalms 17 As for me, I will call upon God; and the LORD shall save me.
, ; . Pslams 18 Evening, and morning, and at noon, will I complain, and moan; and He hath heard my voice
These indicate three, but notice the timings, morning, noon and night. This is what I meant by fajr and Isha being the two extremes. There is no verse in the Koran that says it has to be fajr and isha. Just because these are whats mentioned does not mean that these are the only times. The Koran says there was one angel that came to Mary. But later says there was more than one. It never said only one angel came. Then we could say its contradictory. The Koran says that if the disbelievers would pay the worth of this world twice that would not escape them from punishment, it does not mean that if they pay three times as much they will escape the punishment. The lack of something mentioned does not mean it does not exist.
I see it as the two ends of daytime, fajr at one extreme and after noon as the other. Then the third from sunrise to night time(Darkness). But two is also Ok and so is 5. Depending on your length of prayer.
And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him. (Matthew 65-
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Peace,
I am not concerned with what the Bible says about the prophets -God bless them all- but with what the prophets actually say in the Bible. So I do not take that Biblical passage about Daniel praying 3 times a day as any evidence. Sorry. In the case of prayer you are gonna have to stick to the Quran and the Classical Arabic language for me to take your points seriously. And Im only talking about prayer here. Nothing else. No offense.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace Anwar,
Thank you for this understanding. This would explain the usage of "zulafan min al-layl" in 11114 meaning 3 or more parts of the night
2 parts for isha = sunset twilight + darkness of night close to sunset twilight
2 parts for fajr = sunrise twilight + preceding darkness close to the sunrise twilightIn addition to that, the two ends of the daytime have to be the ones approximating the near parts of the night. The usage of "atraaf al-nahaar" in 20130 implies there are 3 or more edges of the daytime and 11114 clarifies which two edges of the daytime; the ones approximating the near parts of the night.
Peace and The God bless.
Nice observation with "zulufan min al layl"
But in 20130 "atraf" means "(three or more) parts". "Taraf" can mean "end, edge, terminal, extremity, part, etc."
It's always what fits the context best. There are no 3 ends of the day, only two. -
Nice observation with "zulufan min al layl"
But in 20130 "atraf" means "(three or more) parts". "Taraf" can mean "end, edge, terminal, extremity, part, etc."
It's always what fits the context best. There are no 3 ends of the day, only two.Salaam
This plural word "atraaf" means
Start of the day = first end
End of first halft and start of second half of the day (noon) = Second end
End of the day = Third end
The verse may may be pointing to
_Fajar Prayer
-Zohar prayer
-Asr prayer
Just an idea
Regards -
Peace all, Samia
In a previous post I've put this
Salam to all,about Salat AL WUSTA what do you think about this verse 629
Yusuf Ali O ye who believe! when the call is proclaimed to prayer on Friday (the Day of Assembly), hasten earnestly to the Remembrance of Allah, and leave off business (and traffic) that is best for you if ye but knew!
This can only be during the day, not al fajr neither at sun down it has to be somewhere in the middle.
This is to reject the assertion of 2 prayers a day!Allah best knows
I know we are talking about the congregational prayer occuring during the day.
So for you the congregational prayer is an extra prayer?????
Peace
What is your opinion of the timings/amount of prayers?
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Peace everyone,
Evidence from the qur'aan to support this statement will be appreciated. This is completely false as far as my understanding of these salaats is concerned. Both these salaats can be performed alone or in congregation.
"On day of gathering" and "cease all business" in 629 does not mean "during the daytime".
I will now destroy your arguement...
"GOD is the light of the heavens and the earth. The allegory of His light is that of a concave mirror behind a lamp that is placed inside a glass container. The glass container is like a bright, pearl-like star. The fuel thereof is supplied from a blessed oil-producing tree, that is neither eastern, nor western. Its oil is almost self-radiating; needs no fire to ignite it.
Light upon light. GOD guides to His light whoever wills (to be guided). GOD thus cites the parables for the people.
GOD is fully aware of all things." (2435)"(Lit is such a Light) in houses, which God hath permitted to be raised to honour; for the celebration, in them, of His name In them is He glorified in the mornings and in the evenings." (2436)
"By men whom neither traffic nor merchandise can divert from the Remembrance of God, nor from regular Prayer, nor from the practice of regular Charity Their (only) fear is for the Day when hearts and eyes will be transformed (in a world wholly new)." (2437)
God is giving us an example of men who are in mosques and glorify God MORNING AND EVENING. These men are NOT DISTRACTED FROM TRADE.
Compare this to O ye who believe! When the call is proclaimed to prayer on Friday (the Day of Assembly), hasten earnestly to the Remembrance of God, and leave off business (and traffic) That is best for you if ye but knew! (629)
Notice that God is teling us that we should leave off business here. This means it is NEITHER IN THE MORNING NOR IN THE EVENING. BEFORE, GOD SAID THAT MEN WHO GLORIFY HIM MORNINGS AND EVENINGS IN MOSQUES (OR OTHER PRAYER HOUSES) ARE NOT DISTRACTED BY TRADE. BUT WHEN REFERRING TO THE CONGREGATIONAL PRAYER, GOD TELLS US THAT WE SHOULD LEAVE OFF BUSINESS, MEANING THAT IT IS DURING THE DAY.
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Nice observation with "zulufan min al layl"
But in 20130 "atraf" means "(three or more) parts". "Taraf" can mean "end, edge, terminal, extremity, part, etc."
It's always what fits the context best. There are no 3 ends of the day, only two.I don't understand this line of reasoning which seems to imply that we live and die in only one day. Tthat's a hyperbole, but my point still stands. There is obviously more than one day to our lives, so of course we will witness more than one set of tarafaan of the many times of daylight that we experience. If we are blessed to witness even two days of the earth's time we will have witnessed two sets of tarafaan, making that 4 atraaf. If God says pray at sunrise and sunset (implying one day) or if he says pray at every sunrise and sunset, what is the difference? This is the direct equivalent of arguing about how God uses atraaf in a certain verse or tarafaan in another, and trying to imply that they mean separate things. If you disagree that's okay. But if you want to argue me down on the difference between the two, I will not participate because this is a trivial argument to me.
Godbless,
Anwar -
I don't understand this line of reasoning which seems to imply that we live and die in only one day. Tthat's a hyperbole, but my point still stands. There is obviously more than one day to our lives, so of course we will witness more than one set of tarafaan of the many times of daylight that we experience. If we are blessed to witness even two days of the earth's time we will have witnessed two sets of tarafaan, making that 4 atraaf. If God says pray at sunrise and sunset (implying one day) or if he says pray at every sunrise and sunset, what is the difference? This is the direct equivalent of arguing about how God uses atraaf in a certain verse or tarafaan in another, and trying to imply that they mean separate things. If you disagree that's okay. But if you want to argue me down on the difference between the two, I will not participate because this is a trivial argument to me.
Godbless,
AnwarWhat do you mean?? What I have said has nothing to do with living one day or two on earth. It has to do with grammar and the prayer times. "taraf" can mean "terminal, part, side, extremity, end". There are only 2 ends of the day (24-hour period). Do you think I meant day as in life?? When "atraf" is used then it can not mean "ends or sides of the day" since the day only has two ends - sunrise and sunset.
In 20130 some translators make the mistake of saying "(three or more) ends of the day". In this context it means "parts". What I am saying is that we need to choose the meaning which suits the context best.
Peace
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Peace,
You have completely misunderstood. Believe as you will. Good day and . . .
Godbless,
AnwarYou have misunderstood my point. I meant there are only two ends of the day in a 24-hour period (day). I dont mean in the whole life as in birth and death. We are talking about prayer here. I dont get why you make a metaphor with life and day when we are talking about prayer.
Anyhow, look at my post in the new topic "Refuting The 2 Salaat Theory".
Peace
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Peace,
BEFORE, GOD SAID THAT MEN WHO GLORIFY HIM MORNINGS AND EVENINGS IN MOSQUES (OR OTHER PRAYER HOUSES) ARE NOT DISTRACTED BY TRADE. BUT WHEN REFERRING TO THE CONGREGATIONAL PRAYER, GOD TELLS US THAT WE SHOULD LEAVE OFF BUSINESS, MEANING THAT IT IS DURING THE DAY.
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All salaats can be individual or congregational.
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Thank you for proving my point. MEN WHO GLORIFY HIM MORNINGS AND EVENINGS ARE NOT DISTRACTED BY TRADE, AND BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT DISTRACTED BY TRADE, WHEN THEY ARE CALLED FOR DUSK OR DAWN SALAAT ON THE DAY OF GATHERING, THEY LEAVE OFF BUSINESS ------------> ONLY TWO SALAATS PER DAY.
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Leave off business does not mean it is during daytime. Business is routinely conducted until late at night in many parts of the world and some businesses are 24 hour so one can leave off business at dusk or dawn when called for salaat on day of gathering.
But in 20130 "atraf" means "(three or more) parts".
Using "parts" does not change anything. I will use "parts" instead of "edges" in my earlier statement and re-quote
The usage of "atraaf al-nahaar" in 20130 implies there are 3 or more "parts" of the daytime and 11114 clarifies which two "parts" of the daytime; the ones approximating the near parts of the night.
You have done nothing to prove a third salaat. Sorry
No more responses from me to rude posts.
486 And if you are greeted with a greeting, then return an even better greeting or return the same. God is Reckoning over all things.
Peace
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Peace Anwar,
Your point can be correct only if the plural of "nahaar" was used with "atraaf". "Atraaf al-nahaar" refers to 3 or more parts/edges of a single daytime.
Peace
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Peace,
I want to say two things.
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An-nahaaru can also be understood as a collective plural. It can be understood as 'the daytime' or 'daytime.' An example of this collective plural is al-kalbu huwa sadiqul-insaani. Archaic translation The dog is man's best friend. Modern Translation Dogs are man's best friend(s). I could easily say in Arabic Law laa lin-nahaari feel-ayyaami lamaa ra'aina shay'an. Translation Were it not for the daylight of the day we would not be able to see a thing. In the english 'the daylight' is a collective plural and 'the day' is a collective plural. In the Arabic you could use the plural form or the singular form as a collective plural with both nahaar or ayyaam. Ayyaam is plural of yawm but I could have just as easily used al-yawm.
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Nahaar does not equal 24 hour period of time. It only implies the time of daylight. And only nahaar is pertinent to the topic of the number of mandatory prayers in a day.
Godbless,
Anwar -
