Well Here Goes...
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Peace Bro Ayman
Peace Meteora,
So you think that the god revealed the names of the chapters!? If so, then how come the early manuscripts of the great reading don't have chapter titles and the only separators are the Bismallahs? What do you think the divine title of Chapter 9 is?
Decorations have everything to do with your position that chapter 9 doesn't have a Bismallah. It is not surprising that you don't know the ultimate basis for your position because all those attracted to Code 19 are unfortunately ignorant of many basic facts.
Peace,
Ayman
Could you please tell us who added "The Chapters Names" in the AQ and when ? Thank you .
Peace
almarh0m
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From what I have heard, the Quran was compiled i its current form by the third caliph Usman. Im not sure how true that is though.
Ayman You obviously believe in the Quran being of divine origins, but do you mean to tell me that all the things pointed out by RK are just gigantic coincidences? Please present some proof or at least a link to an article. Thanks!
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Peace $aze
The information we want regarding this 'adding of chapters' names/titles' to the AQ is not from hadiths , why would Brother ayman bother giving us this information if it was from the hadiths ? We already knew ages ago about the hadiths things and The Compilation by Uthman of The Qur'an . The "Muslims" claim the present copies of AQ that we use today is of the Uthman era . Hopefully Bro ayman can give us this important information .
Peace
almarh0m
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The issue isn't so much about whether or not the chapter titles are by man or God. Ayman was questioning how we know when a Sura (particularly Sura 9) starts and ends. Isn't it common knowledge that a sura was delivered one by one to Muhammad? Does someone really think that man took ayats out of a sura and placed it in another sura or jumbled them up? I don't think this is true, but anyway, I took a couple of minutes to see if submission.org had anything to say about it; it does http//submission.org/quran/app1.html
Starting from "Editorial addition to appx 1", and down, it pretty much confirms no one has messed with the Quran, in terms of where ayats go and when sura's start/end, at least for the ORIGINAL Quran, not the ones we may have in our homes (even the arabic ones) that have been slightly altered but not in the sense someone did so on purpose (except 128&129 of sura 9, of course). The alterations (except 128&129 of sura 9) do not change the meanings of the ayats but the people of that site have found a way to decipher the true Quran (the one given to Muhammad). Here's the info http//www.submission.org/quran/protect.html
That aside, some interesting facts about myself...
God saved my life when I was 19...
...I was born on the 19th of February, 1989...(8 would be 9 minus the first number of that year)
&
Peace
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The information we want regarding this 'adding of chapters' names/titles' to the AQ is not from hadiths , why would Brother ayman bother giving us this information if it was from the hadiths ? We already knew ages ago about the hadiths things and The Compilation by Uthman of The Qur'an . The "Muslims" claim the present copies of AQ that we use today is of the Uthman era . Hopefully Bro ayman can give us this important information .
Brother, I think you misunderstand me. I do not care much about the origins or the chapter titles, I was asking Ayman to provide proof of what the 19 code might be about since he claims it is not what people think it is.
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Peace $aze
Peace Bro Ayman
Could you please tell us who added "The Chapters Names" in the AQ and when ? Thank you .
Peace
almarh0m
The information I requested from Brother Ayman was regarding "The Chapters Names" and when it was added . I assume that Sarah was asking for the same info as well . As for me having misunderstood you ? Sorry , I don't see how Ayman would cite Hadiths to reference the adding of chapters' names and titles . For your information , I do not care one bit about Code19 , and this thread is for everyone who posted here .
Peace
almarh0m
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Peace Sarah,
Do you have an answer for that Ayman?
Without the manmade chapter titles and decorations and relying on the god, then the only way to know where chapters start and end is by the interjecting Bismallahs. Of course, by relying on the god, it all becomes very simple and we end up with a long Chapter 8 and the great reading turns out to have 113 chapters. Unfortunately, those who have more faith in Code 19 than in the god will not like this, since relying on the god alone destroys their beloved Code 19.
I hope this helps.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Meteora,
It's crazy to think someone created this mathematical system within the book (they could never have done it in such a primitive era and without a calculator/computer)
What mathematical "system"? A system implies some organized repeatable formula and not just whatever works by hook or by crook to give a 19 divisible while hiding all the thousands upon thousands of failed trials where no one got a 19 divisible. If you disagree then tell us what is the formula of Code 19?
And 1- The first verse 11 known as "Basmalla" consists of 19 letters.
So do many other passages such as 1052. How come you don't say that 1052 is a "mathematical miracle"?
2-This verse was revealed to Muhammed after 7430, which states "Over it is 19". not a coincidence.
And how do you know that it was revealed after it?
Allah in the next verse reveals the importance of this number "We appointed angels to be guardians of Hell, and we assigned their number (19) (1) to disturb the disbelievers, (2) to convince the Christians and Jews (that this is a divine scripture), (3) to strengthen the faith of the faithful, (4) to remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as the believers, and (5) to expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and the disbelievers; they will say, "What did GOD mean by this allegory?" GOD thus sends astray whomever He wills, and guides whomever He wills. None knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. This is a reminder for the people."
These are not the god's words. These are RK's lies.
Why would God talk about this number as a sign/miracle when it has no purpose? If its purpose isn't to do what it clearly does, then we may as well not believe in the Quran, as this is the most obvious miracle thanks to the coming of the computer age.
Where does the god say that 19 is a sign/?ayat?? Even RK?s above distorted translation doesn?t claim that.
Your words are exactly like those of Hadith lovers who also say that without Hadiths ?we may as well not believe in the Quran?.
See the bottom http//www.submission.org/miracle/order.html
Another coincidence?Where did the guy in the link get this supposed order of revelation from?
And the other way I can tell is simple. I'll use one as an example. Surat "Al-nas" is a sura by itself, obviously because every verse within it ends with "Al-nas" and the placements of the verse MUST be where they are, because each verse is simply a phrase of an entire sentence. Jumble that up, and we have a children's book. Surat "Al-nas" clearly begins with "Qul" and ends with the last "Al-nas".
I guess if one is too blind to see the obvious Bismallah on top of the chapter then this would be a desperate last resort that wouldn?t work except for the few chapters that start with ?qul?.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace brother Almarh0m,
Could you please tell us who added "The Chapters Names" in the AQ and when ? Thank you .
I don't know.
All I know is that the chapter titles were added several generations after the great reading was descended and they were added simply as a matter of convenience for ease of reference. The titles simply reflect some theme about the chapter that people thought would be a good title. Thus, to this day there are different names for some of the chapters. This is the same as, for example, other manmade conveniences such as the 30 parts (Ajzaa), which are divisions made for recitation convenience.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace $aze,
From what I have heard, the Quran was compiled i its current form by the third caliph Usman. Im not sure how true that is though.
How about all the passages that refer to the great reading as a book? How about the passage which says that the god taught by the pen? How about the passage that instructs the prophet (and us) to read? How about the word "quran" itself which means reading? Clearly reading is from a written document.
So all the stories that talk about the great reading not being fully written down until the time of Usman are nothing but fiction.
Ayman You obviously believe in the Quran being of divine origins, but do you mean to tell me that all the things pointed out by RK are just gigantic coincidences? Please present some proof or at least a link to an article. Thanks!
They are not coincidences. They are deliberate deception on the part of RK. He has made thousands of trials and what he is showing you are the inevitable 1 in 19 successes that you would get in any random sample while hiding all his failed trials.
Here are some links, but browsing the forum and the Code 19 section would net you many more
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9721.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16958.0
http//www.free-minds.org/debate19
I hope this helps.
Peace,
Ayman
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it all becomes very simple and we end up with a long Chapter 8 and the great reading turns out to have 113 chapters.
Ummm I'm quite sure that one of the chapters (29 I think) has bismillah twice, once at the start and once somewhere in the chapter. This would still equal 114 chapters.
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Ayman, thank you for the reply. I shall look into what you suggested and you will hear from me soon iA.
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Peace $aze,
Ummm I'm quite sure that one of the chapters (29 I think) has bismillah twice, once at the start and once somewhere in the chapter. This would still equal 114 chapters.
No. The extra one in the chapter is not interjecting by itself. The passage says
- "inahu min Sulayman wa inahu bism allah alrahman alrahim"
- "And it is from Sulayman and it is in the name of the god, the almighty, the merciful".
If you stop with a new chapter then it would reduce the entire passage to nonsense
"inahu min Sulayman wa inahu...!?"
"And it is from Sulayman and it is ...!?".
Doesn't make any sense.So, clearly this is not an interjecting Bismallah but is part of the context of the passage.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Ayman
So are you saying the start of the Bismillah?s is the indicator of a new chapter?? Did you notice that in most of the verses don?t have bismillah numbered? Other than alfatiha and the verse in altaqba? Any reason why you think that is the case?
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What mathematical "system"? A system implies some organized repeatable formula and not just whatever works by hook or by crook to give a 19 divisible while hiding all the thousands upon thousands of failed trials where no one got a 19 divisible. If you disagree then tell us what is the formula of Code 19?
Of course not everything will work with the #19. Where's the sense in adding any 2 random numbers mentioned in the Quran, for example? All the facts presented regarding the #19 give people a way to decipher what is and isn't the true Quran. The link again is here http//www.submission.org/quran/protect.html
If Allah talks about "preserving the Quran" (the true Quran that is) why would he not give us a way to decipher the original one? Please check the link instead of asking again what the purpose of the #19 is.
So do many other passages such as 1052. How come you don't say that 1052 is a "mathematical miracle"?
Because there's nothing special about it. Being the first or last verse/ayah gives a little bit of status. Also, it's not like I just mentioned that fact by itself. What about all the other countless facts about the #19. Should we reject them too?
And how do you know that it was revealed after it?
[email protected] should know.
These are not the god's words. These are RK's lies.
They must then be the lies of
Yusuf Ali "And We have set none but angels as Guardians of the Fire; and We have fixed their number only as a trial for Unbelievers,- in order that the People of the Book may arrive at certainty, and the Believers may increase in Faith,- and that no doubts may be left for the People of the Book and the Believers, and that those in whose hearts is a disease and the Unbelievers may say, "What symbol doth allah intend by this ?" Thus doth allah leave to stray whom He pleaseth, and guide whom He pleaseth and none can know the forces of thy Lord, except He and this is no other than a warning to mankind."
Shakir And We have not made the wardens of the fire others than angels, and We have not made their number but as a trial for those who disbelieve, that those who have been given the book may be certain and those who believe may increase in faith, and those who have been given the book and the believers may not doubt, and that those in whose hearts is a disease and the unbelievers may say What does allah mean by this parable? Thus does allah make err whom He pleases, and He guides whom He pleases, and none knows the hosts of your Lord but He Himself; and this is naught but a reminder to the mortals.
and Pickthal We have appointed only angels to be wardens of the Fire, and their number have We made to be a stumbling-block for those who disbelieve; that those to whom the Scripture hath been given may have certainty, and that believers may increase in faith; and that those to whom the Scripture hath been given and believers may not doubt; and that those in whose hearts there is disease, and disbelievers, may say What meaneth allah by this similitude? Thus allah sendeth astray whom He will, and whom He will He guideth. None knoweth the hosts of thy Lord save Him. This is naught else than a Reminder unto mortals.
What is different between these translations and Khalifa's?
Where does the god say that 19 is a sign/?ayat?? Even RK?s above distorted translation doesn?t claim that.
Read the ayah carefully. He does not have to outright state it's a miracle. The way he talks about it shows that it clearly is one.
He calls it a "fitnah" in Arabic (which means test/trial) meant to eliminate doubt and make the people of the book (Jews, Christians) increase in faith, and that it would disturb only the disbelievers. Miracles are only rejected by disbelievers.
Your words are exactly like those of Hadith lovers who also say that without Hadiths ?we may as well not believe in the Quran?.
Not at all. I actually have evidence when I argue, unlike Hadithists who have nothing besides "this is sahih so it must be right!1".
Where did the guy in the link get this supposed order of revelation from?
It's a little crazy to think that gigantic number is a multiple of 19, yet was divised by someone...
and you can find the order here as well http//www.missionislam.com/quran/revealationorder.htm
As well as in many other links. No one has a different order than what is shown.
I guess if one is too blind to see the obvious Bismallah on top of the chapter then this would be a desperate last resort that wouldn?t work except for the few chapters that start with ?qul?.
Please read again. the entire chapter is 1 sentence, and each ayah is a phrase of the sentence. misplace any verse in it, it becomes an incomplete sentence. This isn't rocket science.
Salam.
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Peace Sarah,
So are you saying the start of the Bismillah?s is the indicator of a new chapter?? Did you notice that in most of the verses don?t have bismillah numbered? Other than alfatiha and the verse in altaqba? Any reason why you think that is the case?
What does numbering or not numbering have to do with anything? The early manuscripts of the great reading were not numbered. Numbers were inserted for ease of reference. Thus the numbering even in later manuscripts differs greatly from the numbering today.
As I indicated, where chapters start and end can be easily found by using the interjecting Bismallahs as markers for the chapters. It is simple and free of any manmade stuff. Of course, if we stick with what the god gave us and disregard manmade junk then this results in 113 chapters.
Peace,
Ayman
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Maybe the inclusions of bismillah were man made? or a tradition otherwise why not count them in numbers? I'm not doubting the inclusion of bismillah i'm just trying to reason why they weren't numbered were they in older manuscripts?
Numbering is useful for references that makes sense but is it really important how many chapters there are? or how many numbers there are?
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Peace Meteora,
Of course not everything will work with the #19. Where's the sense in adding any 2 random numbers mentioned in the Quran, for example? All the facts presented regarding the #19 give people a way to decipher what is and isn't the true Quran. The link again is here http//www.submission.org/quran/protect.html
If Allah talks about "preserving the Quran" (the true Quran that is) why would he not give us a way to decipher the original one? Please check the link instead of asking again what the purpose of the #19 is.I didn't ask you about the purpose of 19. I asked you to give everyone the formula for the stupid Code 19, which you falsely claimed to be a "mathematical system". Every "mathematical system" has a repeatable formula that one can apply consistently and get a predictable result. You can't provide such formula and thus you evade the question and instead provide a useless link to some 19ers nonsense. Again, the question is
If Code 19 is a "mathematical system" then it has a repeatable formula that one can apply consistently and get a predictable result, what is the formula for Code 19?
Hopefully, you can read it better now.
Because there's nothing special about it. Being the first or last verse/ayah gives a little bit of status. Also, it's not like I just mentioned that fact by itself. What about all the other countless facts about the #19. Should we reject them too?
These are not facts. These are the inevitable 1 in 19 random successful results out of the thousands of trials that Khalifa conducted.
[email protected] should know.
[email protected] are hypocrites because they know that the order of revelation is based on Hadiths and Sunni Scholars and yet they shamelessly use Hadith-based junk when it suits their purposes.
They must then be the lies of
Yusuf Ali "And We have set none but angels as Guardians of the Fire; and We have fixed their number only as a trial for Unbelievers,- in order that the People of the Book may arrive at certainty, and the Believers may increase in Faith,- and that no doubts may be left for the People of the Book and the Believers, and that those in whose hearts is a disease and the Unbelievers may say, "What symbol doth allah intend by this ?" Thus doth allah leave to stray whom He pleaseth, and guide whom He pleaseth and none can know the forces of thy Lord, except He and this is no other than a warning to mankind."
Shakir And We have not made the wardens of the fire others than angels, and We have not made their number but as a trial for those who disbelieve, that those who have been given the book may be certain and those who believe may increase in faith, and those who have been given the book and the believers may not doubt, and that those in whose hearts is a disease and the unbelievers may say What does allah mean by this parable? Thus does allah make err whom He pleases, and He guides whom He pleases, and none knows the hosts of your Lord but He Himself; and this is naught but a reminder to the mortals.
and Pickthal We have appointed only angels to be wardens of the Fire, and their number have We made to be a stumbling-block for those who disbelieve; that those to whom the Scripture hath been given may have certainty, and that believers may increase in faith; and that those to whom the Scripture hath been given and believers may not doubt; and that those in whose hearts there is disease, and disbelievers, may say What meaneth allah by this similitude? Thus allah sendeth astray whom He will, and whom He will He guideth. None knoweth the hosts of thy Lord save Him. This is naught else than a Reminder unto mortals.
What is different between these translations and Khalifa's?
Unlike the liar Khalifa, all the above translations say that the number is ONLY a trial for the disbelievers. Unlike the liar, they all preserve the correct cause (underlined) and effect (bold) relationship. So the effects described are not a result of the number but are a result of the number being ONLY a trial for the disbelievers.
Read the ayah carefully. He does not have to outright state it's a miracle. The way he talks about it shows that it clearly is one.
He calls it a "fitnah" in Arabic (which means test/trial) meant to eliminate doubt and make the people of the book (Jews, Christians) increase in faith, and that it would disturb only the disbelievers. Miracles are only rejected by disbelievers.There is no verb ?disturb? in the passage. The word ?fitnah? is a noun that means ?trial/temptation?. The count of 19 is ONLY a temptation for the disbelievers. Everything (eliminate doubt and make the people of the book increase in faith, etc.) is a result of the COMPLETE underlined clause and not just the number by itself. Find someone who is tempted by Code 19 and you will find a disbeliever who doesn?t believe in the great reading without some kind of miracle code. It is thus not surprising that this someone would also admit that they may as well not believe the god?s words without the code. They believe in the code more than in the god and his words.
Not at all. I actually have evidence when I argue, unlike Hadithists who have nothing besides "this is sahih so it must be right!1".
You use the same fallacies as Hadithists but instead you say ?this is 19 divisible so it must be right!?
If you really had evidence then you would have answered my simple question about the formula for the supposed ?mathematical system? of Code 19 that can be consistently applied to get a predictable result. But even this simple evidence, you don?t actually have. You don?t have anything besides "this is 19 divisible so it must be right!"
It's a little crazy to think that gigantic number is a multiple of 19, yet was divised by someone...
See what I mean.
You don?t have anything besides "this is 19 divisible so it must be right!"
and you can find the order here as well http//www.missionislam.com/quran/revealationorder.htm
As well as in many other links. No one has a different order than what is shown.Your appeal to popularity above is another Hadithist logical fallacy that you borrow.
Please read again. the entire chapter is 1 sentence, and each ayah is a phrase of the sentence. misplace any verse in it, it becomes an incomplete sentence. This isn't rocket science.
Unless you are claiming that each chapter is one sentence and this is how you know where chapters end and start then what you are saying is completely irrelevant. How would you know where chapter 2 or any chapter that is not one sentence starts and ends? How do you know that it ends with 2286 and not 2281, etc. etc.? Without the manmade chapter titles and the decorations then maybe chapter 3 is actually another chapter without a Bismallah starting in 2282 and ending in 2286.
Peace,
Ayman