Defenition of marriage suggests sex before marriage permitted?!

almarh0m

Peace

Quote
Why doesn't it apply anymore? Because you are not giving ajr in material form? Don't you still need ajr when you make the oath of commitment?

Whoops I meant Don't you still need WITNESSES when you make the oath of commitment? Or is that only when there is a dowry contract?
And permission from guardians of the girl?

Have you ever heard or known of a "witnessless" marriage contract anywhere ? Even 'underhand marriages' common in Muslim countries , witnesses and AJR/Dowry are required by the presiding Imams to be present and stated before the marriage can proceed . The same practices applied in Mosques in non Muslim countries should a couple where one muslim or both muslims want to get married , will always ask for the AJR/Dowry to be stated and witnesses provided , this is a direct application of 2282 .

Anyone with a basic knowledge of the law will know that this class of contract must be reduced to writing , signed , sealed and witnessed . So , In my humble opinion , no decent man and woman who are believers will marry themselves without the basic requirements of a valid contract being satisfied . After all as believers , we must obey the authority wherever we live and marriage contract is no exception .

" O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end " ( 459 ).

Marriage , usually a contract between a man and a woman who loves each other and commit to maintain this relationship/marriage for as long as they live or or as long as their love lasts with the "consideration" being their mutual promise to support each other materially and emotionally . Is this not consistent with the requirement of 2282 for a contract of this class to be witnessed ?

Peace

almarh0m

nimnimak_11

Quote
Whoops I meant Don't you still need WITNESSES when you make the oath of commitment? Or is that only when there is a dowry contract?
And permission from guardians of the girl?

Samia
I think you are mixing between two different verbs related to the same root baya3a/ , verb form III (only the verb is used in the qur'aan) to promise allegence to an authority/ plight one's fealty; and bay3 / , noun/verbal noun from verb form I (only the noun is used) sale/trade.

peace

If you choose to give the person you intend to marry something of enough value to be worthy of being written down, then i think that that can be classified as tejarat hence 2282. This isn't exclusive to marriage nor is it compulsory in marriage IMO.

As for the witness with regards to the oath, i'm not sure. I'm not too concerned as i don't think i'll ever want to keep a relationship secret. Thus i'm not too concerned to be honest. However based on what Samia said, it appears that the marriage proposal/oath/contract does not relate to Ba-Ya-Ayn. If your arabic is good maybe should look into it but do you really plan on keeping your marriage secret?? You've just told us on this thread ;D

nimnimak_11

Almarh0m peace

Anyone with a basic knowledge of the law will know that this class of contract must be reduced to writing , signed , sealed and witnessed . So , In my humble opinion , no decent man and woman who are believers will marry themselves without the basic requirements of a valid contract being satisfied . After all as believers , we must obey the authority wherever we live and marriage contract is no exception .

Thank you for sharing your opinion but have you read the posts and ideas on this thread? If not, then they might be of interest to you.

Marriage , usually a contract between a man and a woman who loves each other and commit to maintain this relationship/marriage for as long as they live or or as long as their love lasts with the "consideration" being their mutual promise to support each other materially and emotionally . Is this not consistent with the requirement of 2282 for a contract of this class to be witnessed ?

I am not sure of 2282. If i assume that it is related to the marriage proposal, then it does not change much. I propose to a girl and others find out thus 2282 fulfilled.

What do you think of this example Almarh0m

I propose to a girl (believer) and i have a good intention (oath) she accepts. We are both commited and at the minimum remain faithful to one another. I take her out somewhere (ajr). From this point on, once we are both comfortable to have sex we can do so without doing anything wrong in the sight of God.

peace

nsws1988

do you really plan on keeping your marriage secret?? You've just told us on this thread ;D

I never said I am keeping it a secret. Both his family and mine know )
I'm just learning.

I found this regarding guardians but it seems to only apply to guardians of a slave girl if I am correct...

Those among you who cannot afford to marry free believing women, may marry believing slave women. GOD knows best about your belief, and you are equal to one another, as far as belief is concerned. You shall obtain permission from their guardians before you marry them, and pay them their due dowry equitably...

Thats the only verse I could find regarding seeking permission from a guardian. So it may still apply if a woman was to marry a slave boy I think.

I kind find the verse about the witnesses. Anyone know it?

Doesn't 2282 refer to a loan (dayn)? It does not refer to a marriage contract to my knowledge. But if a marriage contract involves money due in the case of divorce (ie a pre-nup agreement), then I think we should follow that verse in that instance.

truthseeker11

Peace everyone,

It is clear that Samia is confused on certain issues.

I have already shown from the qur'aan that AJR CANNOT MEAN WAGE. Wage is something that is ONGOING BY DEFINITION. Marriage is ongoing so "wage" would be ongoing. According to 3350 the prophet HAD ALREADY GIVEN THE UJOOR, SO IT CANNOT BE AN ONGOING THING SO IT CANNOT BE WAGE. Why is it so hard to understand such a simple thing? brickwall

When we check all the occurrences of AJR in the qur'aan, it can only mean reward, and because it is not an ongoing thing as proven by 3350, so it is a reward that has to be given after nikah/marriage either lump sum or over or after a fixed period of time. It has to be something of intrinsic value and is physical. When we see various signs mentioning AJR in the life hereafter, when it describes the AJR it is always a description of physical things. Also I have already quoted two signs earlier in which God will give AJR as compensation to what people spend out of their wealth/property so it has to be something physical and something of intrinsic value.

2262 Those who spend their wealth in the cause of God, then they do not follow what they have spent with either insult or harm; they will have their reward/AJR with their Lord, there is no fear over them nor will they grieve.
2274 Those who spend their wealth in the night and in the day, secretly and openly, they will have their reward/AJR with their Lord, there is no fear over them nor will they grieve.

We are asked to give AJR to our wives as an OBLIGATION/FAREEDA.

I am disappointed with Samia. She keeps talking about "fareeda" but does not tell anyone what it means and what it is referring to. She has the audacity to say that in 2237 it does not refer to ajr. This is unbelievable nope

Let's go step by step. Let's look at 424

424 ..........................then you shall give them their dowries/UJOOR an ordinance/stipulation/settlement/FAREEDA. There is no sin upon you for what you agree to after the obligation. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.

Here AJR to wife is being called FAREEDA.

Let's see these two signs

2236 There is no sin upon you if you divorce the women before having sexual intercourse with them, or before setting/stipulating the ordinance/stipulation/settlement/FAREEDA for them. Let them have recompense, the rich according to his means, and the poor according to his means. Recompense which is in goodness, a responsibility for those in kindness.
2237 And if you divorce them before having sexual intercourse with them, but you have already set/stipulated the ordinance/stipulation/settlement/FAREEDA for them; then you must give half of what you have agreed, unless they forgive or the guardian over the marriage contract forgives. And if you forgive, it is closer to righteousness. And do not forget the favor between you; God is Seer over what you do.

It is very clear that in the context of a husband wife relationship, AJR IS DIRECTLY CALLED FAREEDA per 424. Then when it is mentioned in 2236-7 in the context of marriage, we are told that we can divorce the women before setting/stipulating their FAREEDA. What is this FAREEDA being talked about? Here someone has just been married, and he immediately wants to divorce for some reason, even before intercourse. What is this FAREEDA being talked about in such a context? IT CAN ONLY BE REFERRING TO AJR (see 424). It does not require rocket science to understand that. I am really really surprised that someone like Samia cannot comprehend such a simple thing and starts misguiding others.

Now coming to 2282 and how it is related to AJR. As I have shown that AJR is something physical with intrinsic value. If it is not given at the time of marriage/nikah as a lump sum, THEN THE HUSBAND OWES IT TO THE WIFE TO BE GIVEN AFTER OR OVER A FIXED PERIOD OF TIME AFTER NIKAH. What does that come under? It comes under DYN/debt/loan which is being talked about in the first part of 2282. Hence, it HAS to be recorded as a written document if it is not paid on the spot at the time of marriage/nikah. If it is given on the spot at the time of nikah, then it comes under "tijarat hazirat", and thus there is no blame if it is not written down per 2282.

Therefore

If AJR is not paid on the spot at the time of nikah, and is to be paid later over or after a fixed period of time then WRITTEN AJR CONTRACT IS COMPULSORY AND TWO WITNESSES COMPULSORY.
If AJR is paid on the spot at the time of nikah, then written contract not compulsory but TWO WITNESSES STILL COMPULSORY.

Now coming to written marriage contract.

As per 2237, "allathee biyadihi oqdat al-nikah"/the one with/in his hand the marriage contract CAN ONLY BE THE HUSBAND as explained in one of my earlier posts. Because it says "his hand" it has to be a written contract. Hence, because it can only be referring to the husband, and it is with/in his hand, IT IS COMPULSORY. Two witnesses will also be compulsory because nikah/marriage comes under BA-YA-Ayn despite what PROFESSOR SAMIA says.

PROFESSOR SAMIA herself admits that BAAYA3 (ba-ya-alif-ayn) can mean allegiance. The word used in 2282 is TABAAYA3TUM which is of the form ba-ya-alif-ayn. What is nikah/marriage but an allegiance between two people? It is not just an allegiance/covenant but a STRONG/SOLEMN one (please see 421). Hence TWO WITNESSES ARE COMPULSORY for the marriage covenant/allegiance.

This is what I found in Lane's Lexicon

BAAYA3 AL-AMEER He promised, or swore, allegiance to the prince.

Here BAAYA3 is of the form ba-ya-alif-ayn, same as 2282, and al-ameer means prince, so baaya3 means promising or swearing allegiance.

Although majority of the time Ba-Ya-Ayn refers to buying or selling goods or an agreement/contract to buy or sell goods, it can also mean an allegiance/covenant betweeen two people.

There is another interesting meaning given in Lane Lexicon.

IMRAA'AT BAAI3 A woman who easily obtains a suitor or is in much demand.

truthseeker11

Peace N,

found this regarding guardians but it seems to only apply to guardians of a slave girl if I am correct...

Those among you who cannot afford to marry free believing women, may marry believing slave women. GOD knows best about your belief, and you are equal to one another, as far as belief is concerned. You shall obtain permission from their guardians before you marry them, and pay them their due dowry equitably...

Thats the only verse I could find regarding seeking permission from a guardian. So it may still apply if a woman was to marry a slave boy I think.

Ma malakat aymanukum DOES NOT mean slave. That is the twisted and corrupted mistranslation based on unverifiable hearsay. If "ma malakat aymanukum" means slave then putting slave instead of ma malakat aymanukum in 424-25 will result in a NONSENSICAL interpretation.

424 And the mohsanaat from the women, except the slaves............................

Here the word "except" implies that "ma malakat aymanukum" is a subset of "mohsanat". So it would mean that mohsanaat are forbidden unless they are "slaves", so we can marry only the "slaves" from the mohsanaat category.

425 And whoever of you cannot afford to marry the believing mohsanaat, then from the slaves from the believing young women...............

This would mean that if we cannot find the "slaves" from the "mohsanaat" category, then we can marry the "slaves" from the "fatayaat" category.

SO THIS WOULD MEAN THAT THE ONLY WOMEN THAT CAN BE MARRIED ARE SLAVES o nope

As you can see that this twisting will result in nonsense.

The word used in the qur'aan for "slave" is RQB (2177, 492, 589 etc.)

Ma malakat aymanukum means "what possessed by your oath". This could either be an oath of financial support or an oath to get married (which indirectly would be an oath of financial support too), depending on the context. If you are homeless with no money and I make an oath with you to support you financially, does that make you my slave? If you are a young girl dependent on your parents for financial support, and then I make an oath with you to get married to you and then support you financially, does that make you my slave? If you are an independent lady and I make an oath to get married with you, does that make you my slave?

ONCE AGAIN, SLAVE IS RAQABAT (SINGULAR) OR RIQAAB (PLURAL) IN THE QUR'AAN.

Doesn't 2282 refer to a loan (dayn)? It does not refer to a marriage contract to my knowledge. But if a marriage contract involves money due in the case of divorce (ie a pre-nup agreement), then I think we should follow that verse in that instance.

2282 refers to DYN, TIJARAT HAAZIRAT, AND BAAYA3. It refers to three things.

AJR is a form of DYN, because if not paid on the spot at the time of nikah, it is owed by the husband to the wife. Such an AJR will be DYN, and a written contract compulsory and two witnesses compulsory. Please see my above post for details.

When AJR is paid on the spot at the time of marriage, then it will be a form of TIJARAT HAAZIRAT, and then written contract is not compulsory but two witnesses still compulsory.

2282 also refers to BAAYA3 and says it should be witnessed. Marriage contract is a form of BAAYA3. Please see my above post for details on how it pertains to marriage.

So there can be two contracts

AJR contract -----> DYN
Marriage/nikah contract -----> BAAYA3

truthseeker11

Peace Nyma,

I propose to a girl (believer) and i have a good intention (oath) she accepts. We are both commited and at the minimum remain faithful to one another. I take her out somewhere (ajr). From this point on, once we are both comfortable to have sex we can do so without doing anything wrong in the sight of God.

Proposing according to the qur'aan is "khitbaat al-nisaa". It can be public or secret (2235). It is not compulsory.

Oath to get married is compulsory and would come under BAAYA3, so requires two witnesses, which is missing from your scenario.

Permission from her guardian/family would also be compulsory if she is among "fatayaat".

Marriage contract "oqdat al-nikah" is also compulsory and it has to be a written contract as I have explained before (2237). This is also missing from your scenario. See my post above addressed to everyone, and my other post earlier on how "allathee biyadihi oqdat al-nikah" can only be referring to the husband.

Witnesses are also compulsory for nikah/marriage. See my above posts on BAAYA3.

Taking her out somewhere after nikah would NOT be AJR unless she is explicitly told that this is her AJR for entering the nikah allegiance, and she agrees to it being her AJR. AJR can actually be paid even after post nikah sexual intercourse or even at the time of divorce, if mutually agreed by the husband and wife.

Your scenario clearly violates the qur'aan. If you just want to have sex with someone similar to your scenario above then go ahead and do it but don't say it is sanctioned by the god. It would just be another form of FAAHISHA.

I will repeat once again what I said in one of my earlier posts for everyone's benefit. It has all the qur'aanic references

In my understanding, the whole process can have the following steps out of which the bold ones are required for sexual intercourse

Proposal (khitbaat al-nisaa) which can be public or secret (2235).
Oath to get married in front of witnesses (424-25, 2282)
Permission from guardian/family if she is dependent on them (425)
Strong/solemn oath/covenant of marriage in front of witnesses (421, 2282)
Written marriage contract (2237)
Written ajr contract with witnesses (only if ajr not paid at the time of nikah/marriage) (2282)
Payment of AJR in front of witnesses before or at the time of divorce (2282, 2236-7, 2241).
Spending from one's wealth on the wife throughout marriage (434).

almarh0m

Peace

Almarh0m peace

Thank you for sharing your opinion but have you read the posts and ideas on this thread? If not, then they might be of interest to you.

I am not sure of 2282. If i assume that it is related to the marriage proposal, then it does not change much. I propose to a girl and others find out thus 2282 fulfilled.

What do you think of this example Almarh0m

I propose to a girl (believer) and i have a good intention (oath) she accepts. We are both commited and at the minimum remain faithful to one another. I take her out somewhere (ajr). From this point on, once we are both comfortable to have sex we can do so without doing anything wrong in the sight of God.

peace

Firstly , this thread is about 'Definition of marriage and sex before marriage as per this definition , how am I doing so far ? So I gave my opinion on the definition as well as what I understood of marriage is according to the law and the Qur'an , which I understood to be a 'civil contract' , in most countries anyway .

Secondly , If I understood you correctly in your earlier post and , which you re-iterated in your example , then you have already considered yourself and the girl as "married" by proposing to her and by your intention and exchange of oaths and commitment to be faithful to each other , as well as giving her AJR . If you follow this line of reasoning , then the subsequent sexual relationship with the girl ( who is now your wife ) , there is no sex before marriage at all , because "the sex you would have" is sex after marriage by your very own definition of it as per 'example' &nbsp .

Seriously , what you have in the example is an agreement and not a contract of marriage , as a contract of marriage requires the parties to it to confer Rights and Obligations to both man and woman which is enforcable in a court of law . Whereas the mere agreement that you had is not legallly binding at all for the simple reason that It does not satisfy the requirement of the law in whatever country you are residing , nor does it conform to 2282 . ( What recourse to the law would the girl have should you decide to renege on your promise/agreement ? She cannot sue you for breach of Promise , at least not anymore ).

I do realize of course that in real life the practice of sex before marriage is a reality which no one can deny , however I don't know any religion or culture that encourages this sort of behaviour . Having said that , personally I have not problem with adults doing their own things provided that it is consensual .

Cheers

almarh0m

siki

The word used in the qur'aan for "slave" is RQB (2177, 492, 589 etc.)

ONCE AGAIN, SLAVE IS RAQABAT (SINGULAR) OR RIQAAB (PLURAL) IN THE QUR'AAN.

Dear brother truth seeker

Your definition of the word Raqaba as slave is wrong.

Raqab is the bridle which is used to control the horse,

What is Tehreer? Tehreer is a written document, any written document, when we combine Tehreer with Raqaba , that means , A deed to unbridle, Quran uses this idiomatically to mean , Setting a slave free.

"Fi il tehreer e raqaba momina", conveys , Setting a believing slave free, or Making a deed for a believer to be unbridled.

Raqab literally does not translate as "A slave". If you have some idea as to how does Arabic work , you would understand me.

siki

nsws1988

Ma malakat aymanukum DOES NOT mean slave. That is the twisted and corrupted mistranslation based on unverifiable hearsay. If "ma malakat aymanukum" means slave then putting slave instead of ma malakat aymanukum in 424-25 will result in a NONSENSICAL interpretation.

Whoopsie! I should've read the Arabic before using that translation. You are right it is MMA.

ONCE AGAIN, SLAVE IS RAQABAT (SINGULAR) OR RIQAAB (PLURAL) IN THE QUR'AAN.

Aha! Thanks!

2282 refers to DYN, TIJARAT HAAZIRAT, AND BAAYA3. It refers to three things.

Yes I found that part now )

AJR is a form of DYN, because if not paid on the spot at the time of nikah, it is owed by the husband to the wife. Such an AJR will be DYN, and a written contract compulsory and two witnesses compulsory. Please see my above post for details.

When AJR is paid on the spot at the time of marriage, then it will be a form of TIJARAT HAAZIRAT, and then written contract is not compulsory but two witnesses still compulsory.

Thanks. Makes more sense now handshake

Q_student

Dear brother truth seeker

Your definition of the word Raqaba as slave is wrong.

Raqab is the bridle which is used to control the horse,

What is Tehreer? Tehreer is a written document, any written document, when we combine Tehreer with Raqaba , that means , A deed to unbridle, Quran uses this idiomatically to mean , Setting a slave free.

"Fi il tehreer e raqaba momina", conveys , Setting a believing slave free, or Making a deed for a believer to be unbridled.

Raqab literally does not translate as "A slave". If you have some idea as to how does Arabic work , you would understand me.

siki

Dear Brother
I have differences with TS but he is right in this respect.

( 1 / 11319)
neck
slave, bondman

? bridle braydal

, , ,

freeing, liberation, liberalization, disengagement, emancipation

editing, redaction

Regards

Samia

Peace everyone,

It is clear that Samia is confused on certain issues.

I have already shown from the qur'aan that AJR CANNOT MEAN WAGE.

Salaam Truthseeker, all

I haven't seen how, from the quraan, you showed that "ajr" cannot be wage. The word "ajr" in the qur'aan is "payed" by God, and there's the "ajr" by husband.. As for God, He "rewards" us or "pays" us once we meet Him, and it will be an ongoing payment. The discussion is whether the "ajr" by husband is an ongoing thing or not. It does not matter how you translate it, but its meaning is an ongoing payment as long as the service is being carried out.
Here is the usage of the verb "hire" which is derivd from the word "ajr". It's the story of Moses with his future father-in-law

Said one of the (damsels) "O my (dear) father! engage him on wages truly the best of men for thee to employ is the (man) who is strong and trusty"....
2827

He said "I intend to wed one of these my daughters to thee, on condition that thou serve me for eight years; but if thou complete ten years, it will be (grace) from thee. But I intend not to place thee under a difficulty thou wilt find me, indeed, if Allah wills, one of the righteous."
2828

He said "Be that (the agreement) between me and thee whichever of the two terms I fulfil, let there be no ill-will to me. Be Allah a witness to what we say."

I do not think there's a point for these two people to discuss the length of time if the payment is a "reward" paid "once", because it's clear it's for a job.

truthseeker11

Peace Samia,

AJR in the context of marriage cannot mean an ongoing wage in the qur'aan. This is proved by 3350 which mentions the prophet having already paid the ujoor to his wives.

Furthermore, if you study the passage quoted by you (2826-2, the reward of Moses working for his future father in law was nikah with his daughter, which is clearly not a wage but is a reward. So actually your quote disproves that AJR is an onging wage as used in 2826.

Fahad1

Eid,

It is clear from this that you haven't grasped a thing about my interpretation.

Go back to my post about the definition of zina and tell me what you understand. And only the command about zina has anything to with marriage, not the rest of the commands.

How are you using both meanings, chaste and married? Do you realize it doesn't make any sense?

(chaste) -- Pure from unlawful sexual intercourse; virtuous; honorable, the opposite of adulteress harlot.

1928 O sister of Aaron, your father was not (a) man of evil, and your mother was not unchaste.

I asked how you can use both meanings, one that I don't agree with and one that you don't agree with, in that same sentence, and still make sense? Only one of those meanings can be true, that's what we are disputing, remember?.

These 'al-muhsinaat' are already from the "malakat aymanukum".

What else does it say?

425

What?

The verse does not mention "al-muhsinaat". Tch tch.

2433 And those who do not find marriage should refrain??

Refrain from what, refrain means what -- stay chaste/honorable?

'Al-muhsinaat' is still not there. Shows 'al-muhsinaat' does not mean what you want it to mean.

Does it say that "only" al-muhsinaat are allowed?

Are non believing prostitutes permitted too?

55

Today is permitted for you the goodness, and those who were given The Book's food is permitted for you, and your food is permitted for them, and the chaste from the believers, and the chaste from those who were given The Book from before you, if you gave them their Mahr (reward), marrying not fornicating/adulterating, and not taking lovers, and who disbelieves with the faith, so his deed had failed, and he in the end from the losers.

No, "non believers" are not permitted and neither are prostitutes. That's what I have been saying. But you don't want to weigh and consider. You just want to contradict and refute.

How? What did I say az-zina is?

You asked a simple question

What will the "slander" mean for an unmarried woman?

To which I gave you a simple answer and depending on location sound advice.

You wrote
It means her reputation, honor, chastity, and dignity as a lady is being challenged.

Why, what did she do so wrong?!

Oh?

Yes people get shot for slandering chaste women -- married or single.

People are to be FLOGGED, and not to be killed, for slandering al-muhsinaat(24/4), and ONLY al-muhsinaat, and ONLY when the slanderer is someone other than the husband(24/6-9).

I do. You on the other hand need to make sense of what you read and what you say, stop relying on translations, and read my post about az-zina. Here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598241.msg199786#msg199786

What you conjectured on zina and marriage contradicts;

How? Where?

suggest take my advice on slandering.

Advice without evidence?

Fahad1

According to your interpretation, al-muhsinaat is married (contradicts 425)

How does it contradict? Pay close attention to 4/25, you will see that the fatayat become al-muhsinaat AFTER nikah.

First understand that al-muhsinaat are only allowed from the "MMA" category(4.24). Ok?

Then 4/25 says if you cannot "marry" or do nikah with al-muhsinaat al-mominaat(from the "MMA&quot, so anyone from the "MMA" from your fatayaat al-mominaat.

Afterwards it says to do nikah with the fatayat(who are NOT al-muhsinaat ) with the permission of their 'ahl'.

But then it goes on to say "fa iza uhsinna(the same root as al-muhsinaat)", which tells that they have NOW become al-muhsinaat, i.e. AFTER NIKAH.

Please let me know if you now agree. If you still think I am mistaken, please correct me.

Marriage does not make a woman chaste (this is about her character not marital status).

425 And who is not able, from you wealth that he marries almuhsanati

Did I say al-muhsina means chaste?!

Says to marry a good woman (the chaste) not marry the already married.

Evidence? 4/25 also says to marry the fatayat instead of al-muhsinaat. So are the fatayat "unchaste"?

nimnimak_11

Almarh0m peace

If you follow this line of reasoning , then the subsequent sexual relationship with the girl ( who is now your wife ) , there is no sex before marriage at all , because "the sex you would have" is sex after marriage by your very own definition of it as per 'example' .

That is my entire point. You are having sex inside marriage. In this thread, I never went into discussing sex before marriage.
My entire point is that when you start a relationship, you are quranically classed as married thus sex is morally ok.

What is being discussed is when you've actually attained the marriage stage.

Seriously , what you have in the example is an agreement and not a contract of marriage , as a contract of marriage requires the parties to it to confer Rights and Obligations to both man and woman which is enforcable in a court of law

I don't currently agree with you on this. I want to look at truthseeker's posts in detail first before i respond to you on this with any sort of proof.

Truthseeker peace

I'm glad your back welcome bravo
I've skimmed your posts and most interesting so far is your quote of 424. Please give me time to reply as i have exams on thursday and friday and i will be working tomorow night so it might take till saturday.

Also please stop accusing Samia of misguiding others. She is giving her opinion/understanding. Let's keep this discussion as friendly as possible handshake peace

For now,
Thanks

unknownuser

Fahad,

I asked how you can use both meanings, one that I don't agree with and one that you don't agree with, in that same sentence, and still make sense? Only one of those meanings can be true, that's what we are disputing, remember?.

You asked this, remember?

Quote from Fahad on May 11, 2009, 105923 PM
How are you using both meanings, chaste and married? Do you realize it doesn't make any sense?

Do you realize a married woman can be chaste/honorable?

People are to be FLOGGED, and not to be killed, for slandering al-muhsinaat(24/4), and ONLY al-muhsinaat, and ONLY when the slanderer is someone other than the husband(24/6-9).

Advice without evidence?

Flogged if following Qur?an in an Islamic society and that was my advice in general; go slander a young lady or married woman especially in some cultures and when her brother or relative hits you with a blunt object, you will have evidence.

How does it contradict? Pay close attention to 4/25, you will see that the fatayat become al-muhsinaat AFTER nikah.

First understand that al-muhsinaat are only allowed from the "MMA" category(4.24). Ok?

Then 4/25 says if you cannot "marry" or do nikah with al-muhsinaat al-mominaat(from the "MMA&quot, so anyone from the "MMA" from your fatayaat al-mominaat.

Afterwards it says to do nikah with the fatayat(who are NOT al-muhsinaat ) with the permission of their 'ahl'.

But then it goes on to say "fa iza uhsinna(the same root as al-muhsinaat)", which tells that they have NOW become al-muhsinaat, i.e. AFTER NIKAH.

Please let me know if you now agree. If you still think I am mistaken, please correct me.

I see now, your presumptions are

almuhsanati are ONLY married.
punishment for zina ONLY applicable to almuhsanati (the married) women.
singles can have unlimited sex; zina not applicable because they are not married.

Which contradicts

243 The male whore does not marry only the female whore

Who is allowed to marry whom above?

425 And who is not able, from you capability that he marries almuhsanati (the married)

Who is not able to marry the married, how does that work?

2433 And those who do not find marriage should refrain...

re?frain curb, restrain
intransitive verb
to keep oneself from doing, feeling, or indulging in something and especially from following a passing impulse

Refrain from what? What do married people do?

55
Today is permitted for you the goodness, and those who were given The Book's food is permitted for you, and your food is permitted for them, and almuhsanati from the believers, almuhsanati from those who were given The Book from before you, if you gave them their Mahr (reward), marrying not fornicating/adulterating, and not taking lovers, and who disbelieves with the faith, so his deed had failed, and he in the end from the losers.

How does that work again, permitted for you are almuhsanati (the already married) ?

siki

Dear Brother
I have differences with TS but he is right in this respect.

( 1 / 11319)
neck
slave, bondman

?

RAQAB's closest expression is "tie by the neck", The thing with which we tie by Neck is Raqaab, which is a kind of bridle that is used to control horses , Raqaab is a very common word in urdu.

What you are talking about , is the evolved specific meanings in a certain context which is being derived with combination of words, where as what i am trying to convey is the basic route.

What i was trying to convey to TS was , that we can not translate a single word out of this combination(idiomatic use) literally, to what they all convey when grouped together.

siki

Q_student

RAQAB's closest expression is "tie by the neck", The thing with which we tie by Neck is Raqaab, which is a kind of bridle that is used to control horses , Raqaab is a very common word in urdu.

What you are talking about , is the evolved specific meanings in a certain context which is being derived with combination of words, where as what i am trying to convey is the basic route.

What i was trying to convey to TS was , that we can not translate a single word out of this combination(idiomatic use) literally, to what they all convey when grouped together.

siki

DEar brother
I respect your opinion. No doubt as a verb
= Raqaba hoo = means He tied around his neck
But when its noun is used it means "neck" /nape of the neck /figuratively "mamlook " (slave).

( 1 / 755)
( )
( 1 / 116)
( 1 / 264)

I do not insist on it.If you accept ,so much the better.If not ,absolutely no objection .

handshake
Regards

Fahad1

Fahad,

You asked this, remember?

Quote from Fahad on May 11, 2009, 105923 PM
How are you using both meanings, chaste and married? Do you realize it doesn't make any sense?

Do you realize a married woman can be chaste/honorable?

Yes, a married woman can be a chaste woman, but your use of al-muhsinaat to refer to both married and chaste is illogical because that is what we are disputing, that whether it is referring to the married or the chaste.

This is what you initially asked me

244 those who accuse (chaste/honorable women) ? only married women are honorable.
Therefore, according to your interpretation (in context) single women cannot be chaste.

I don't believe al-muhsinaat means 'chaste/honorable', and you don't believe that it means 'married', so why ask me whether only married women are chaste in 24/4?! It wouldn't make sense. It makes your question sound as if I believe al-muhsinaat means chaste and you believe it means married. You have used the same illogic in some of your other questions as well. If you still haven't understood this, just leave it and move on to the next argument.

Flogged if following Qur?an in an Islamic society

Ok, and that's what matters in this discussion.

and that was my advice in general;

Your advice was to replace the Quranic commandment

Very serious and those who continue to spread such lies should be dealt with mercilessly.

go slander a young lady or married woman especially in some cultures and when her brother or relative hits you with a blunt object, you will have evidence.

No thanks. But even if the accuser brings witnesses, maybe he will still hit him. Maybe he'll even shoot his sister alongwith the accuser. But what's the point of all that? I don't see how all that is relevant to the discussion.

I see now, your presumptions are

almuhsanati are ONLY married.

Yes, that's what I think so far. A woman becomes al-muhsina after nikah/marriage. Are there other ways for women to become al-muhsinaat? I don't know.

punishment for zina ONLY applicable to almuhsanati (the married) women.

Her and the participating man.

singles can have unlimited sex; zina not applicable because they are not married.

But then they are not singles anymore, are they? And zina is only applicable when polyandry is committed.

Which contradicts

243 The male whore does not marry only the female whore

Who is allowed to marry whom above?

The momineen are not allowed this.

425 And who is not able, from you capability that he marries almuhsanati (the married)

Who is not able to marry the married, how does that work?

These women are from the milkal ayman/MMA. I am not exactly sure who the MMA are, but one thing I know is that they are dependent upon the momineen. I think these women may be the ones who migrated to the momineen, women who are not allowed for the kuffar any longer.(60/10)

2433 And those who do not find marriage should refrain...

re?frain curb, restrain
intransitive verb
to keep oneself from doing, feeling, or indulging in something and especially from following a passing impulse

Refrain from what? What do married people do?

Refrain from zina/fahisha? What else?

55
Today is permitted for you the goodness, and those who were given The Book's food is permitted for you, and your food is permitted for them, and almuhsanati from the believers, almuhsanati from those who were given The Book from before you, if you gave them their Mahr (reward), marrying not fornicating/adulterating, and not taking lovers, and who disbelieves with the faith, so his deed had failed, and he in the end from the losers.

How does that work again, permitted for you are almuhsanati (the already married) ?

60/10, I think.