Defenition of marriage suggests sex before marriage permitted?!
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Dear Samia
I am talking about this verb
Is this not third person singular masculine imperative ?
RegardsYes it is.
I just realized that you are referring to my post, sorry.
This person is not being addressed, and so there is no sudden change of address. Look at the beginning of the verse the address to the 2nd person plural masculine did not change. -
Yes it is.
I just realized that you are referring to my post, sorry.
This person is not being addressed, and so there is no sudden change of address. Look at the beginning of the verse the address to the 2nd person plural masculine did not change.Dear Samia
Thanks you accepted it
Now look at this sentenceIt is a conditional sentence in which 3rd person masculine singular is the addressee (he is being talked about and he is being "COMMANDED).
In the second partNow here nature of address regarding number and person is changed. TS was thinking that it is part of apodosis of the first part ,but my opinion based on the logic which I have just mentioned was different.
Regards
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Peace all,
I guess the 'mohasanat' are women LOCKED by a dowry. Mohasanat are divided into 'Mohasanat from the women' which is forbidden to marry because they are married to believers and 'the believing Mohasanat' which are women who were married to disbelieving men but left them(during peace or war) due to their belief. Now, what your right hand possess will include believing free woman 'fatayat mominat' and believing married women 'mohasanat mominat'. Who is harder to marry?? The believing married women because you will have to return the dowry to their husbands and so we understand the following verse.
425 If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess And Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another Wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dowers, according to what is reasonable They should be chaste, not lustful, nor taking paramours when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, their punishment is half that for married women. This is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practise self-restraint. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
Peace,
Rami
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If 'moahasant' mean married. How does is affect our understanding of the very controversial verse of prostitution.
2433 Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until Allah gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is Allah, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them),
Any ideas?
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For God sake, "There is NO forbidden in this verse any where"
Forbiden word is there in 4-22, and again forbidden word is there in 4-23, seeing this precedence it had to be in the 4-24 , for mohsinnats?
But it is not .
But isn't "wal muhsanaatu minan nisa" a continuation of the forbidden categories from the previous verse? Please tell me more. Thanks.
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Dear Samia
Thanks you accepted it
Now look at this sentenceIt is a conditional sentence in which 3rd person masculine singular is the addressee (he is being talked about and he is being "COMMANDED).
Salaam Student!
He cannot be "talked about" and be the "addressee" at the same time. You are confusing between a command to the third person and an address (which cannot be to a third person). This is clear from this translationO YOU who have attained to faith! Whenever you give or take credit for a stated term, set it down in writing. And let a scribe write it down equitably between you; and no scribe shall refuse to write as God has taught him thus shall he write. And let him who contracts the debt dictate; and let him be conscious of God, his Sustainer, and not weaken anything of his undertaking. And if he who contracts the debt is weak of mind or body, or, is not able to dictate himself, then let him who watches over his interests dictate equitably
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Salaam Student!
He cannot be "talked about" and be the "addressee" at the same time. You are confusing between a command to the third person and an address (which cannot be to a third person). This is clear from this translationO YOU who have attained to faith! Whenever you give or take credit for a stated term, set it down in writing. And let a scribe write it down equitably between you; and no scribe shall refuse to write as God has taught him thus shall he write. And let him who contracts the debt dictate; and let him be conscious of God, his Sustainer, and not weaken anything of his undertaking. And if he who contracts the debt is weak of mind or body, or, is not able to dictate himself, then let him who watches over his interests dictate equitably
Dear sister
Commandment cannot be without address.Even then if you think so I cannot say any thing more than this.
Regards -
Salaam Samia,
You just put your finger on the most important point. Any interpretation of muhsanaat as chaste/free/ dependent/independent...etc will make these categories forbidden; that's why some interpreters came up with "married", but quickly fell in contradiction with the exception ?lla except" that follows it, which makes "some" married women lawful.
To find the correct meaning of muhaanaat, we have to reconsider the address. In my opinion, the address in this verse has changed from the address in the previous verse. The addressee are a special category of people, and this verse and the verses that follow concern this category.
I believe the address is universal as with food.
55 Today is permitted for you the goodness?s, and those who were given The Book's food is permitted for you, and your food is permitted for them, and from the believers, and from those who were given The Book from before you...
Special category is ma malakat aymanukum; not equal (302, half (425) the punishment.
Peace siki,
For God sake, "There is NO forbidden in this verse any where"
Forbiden word is there in 4-22, and again forbidden word is there in 4-23, seeing this precedence it had to be in the 4-24 , for mohsinnats?
But it is not .
This is precisely what everybody is taking for granted NOT realizing that it is causing 100% contradiction right in the next verse, 4-25
From context...
423 (forbidden are?)
424 And from the women except ma malakat aymanukum, God?s decree on you, and is permitted for you, what (is) behind that...425 And who is not able, from you capability that he marries , the believing, so from ma malakat aymanukum from your youths (girls) the believers...
Married no mention in 423 "and" they are in 424; only permissible married are those of the mma category.
No contradiction with 425, about character general address not marital status.
Salaam Samia,
I do not understand this Eactly! Do you mean that these " chaste hallal/permissible ladies"are forbidden as per 424?!
How about "immune" as a meaning for muhsan? In fact it's more correct than "protected/fortified" since this second meaning is a derivative of the form II
of the verb and means fortified "muhaSSan"5914 They will not fight you (even) together, except in fortified townships, or from behind walls. Strong is their fighting (spirit) amongst themselves thou wouldst think they were united, but their hearts are divided that is because they are a people devoid of wisdom.
By exactly, Victorian Etiquette comes to mind as in "the honorable lady Samia" or as in writing the formal Dear Madam which can refer to married or single chaste/good as Qur'an calls them in context?
2423-26 That truly those who blame and accuse ?
The wicked (F) to the wicked (M), and the wicked (M) to the wicked (F), and the good (F) to good (M), and the good (M) to the good (F), those are being made innocent from what they are saying, for them forgiveness and kind (reimbursement).
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as either single or married contradicts; has to be general refer to both, use context to differentiate.
Peace
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I would make an effort to explain for those , who sincerely want to grasp the issue regarding ALMOHSINNATE , with open mind,
1- All the women in the word are addressed as NISSA,
2- Out of these Nissa, certain categories are either prohibited, or not recommended for a Man /woman relationship.
3- NOt allowed/prohibited, word used Haram absolutely no way that you should think about them in any sexual way, 4-22 and 423, weather they are Zanias,fahishas, mushrikas , belonging to believers,or are from people of the book , or belong in MMA.
4-A certain category specifically called with titles zania fahishas or mushrikas not recommended ,to have legal relation ships (with independent separate commands for each ) however , they are not haram (if you get sexually involved/fornicate with them , it is a sin, but probably not as big a sin as incest, (described in 4-22,423)
5- leaving these aside, rest of the eligible women in the world earn the title as AL mohsinnate, Meaning eligible Halal chaste women.
6-Al mohsinnate among believers declared Hallal for believers , and also "mohsinnats" from people of the book added to the hallal category in 5-5.
7- How are they halal ? not just that you agree and have a relationship, so the procedure/law is being issued in 4-24, That you should seek them with your money pay ajar before touching and have an agreed relationship for maintaining chastity , dont do it to satisfy your lusts only.
will continue.
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---continuation---
8-Ma Malakat emnakum is a bunch that contains nissa (or rijal,i am not sure yet) so it could have some prohibited not recommended categories.
9-Mohsinnate out of these are legal to have sexual relations , but the law prescribed to govern a man woman relation ship in 4-24 is not applicable , that is why 4-24, says WA Al mohsinnate ILLA MMA.(This is for all mohsinnate except the Mohsinnate from MMA)
10-That means you dont seek them with your money , No ajar before touching , and aim is to satisfy your/her lust.
11-Fatayat simply means a Young female, and hence is a subset of Nissa, not of Mohsinnate. A fatayat could be your daughter or sister, hence not mohsinate,
12- You would find fatayats among all sub sets of NISSA.
13- 4-25 , locks on to a specific Nissa. who is, 1. Mohsinna, 2. from MMA, 3. believing category,4. and a fatayat(young one) recommended as an alternate for nikah, if you are not able to marry among the regular believing Mohsinnate.
14- As she is among MMA , so you may not consider her as a suitable 1st option, but God recommends her as a last resort, if you fear falling in sin due to non availability of a mate.
15-This also means, that You may not consider, non believing , otul kitab category and middle aged/old women from MMA category , if you are hard pushed to find a mate.
to be continued----
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Why has God used the title Mohsinnate for these elligible women,and what it means?
The root is H7sn, which means, locked, protect,
There are 4 more occurrences of the ROOT HSN,other than mohsinnate context, 59,2 59.14 ,21-80 and 24-33, "Qaria al hassana", "Hassonahum", and "Tahsoonna"
59,14 talks of the building which protects, from enemy attacks, and is called Fortress,
59,2 again refers to the buildings and other arrangements , which one makes to protect himself and hence could be called Fortresses.
21-80 uses the word " sanna tul labboosee" which is the body armour for protection during a fight.
24-33 The word Tahsoona is used in contrast with Bigha ,
"Bigha" is fornication to gain wordly gains (prostitution) and is in contrast to Chastity, The verse advises , Not to force the young females under your control in to BIgha if they desire to be chaste.
If we analyse all this, Hsn is used for protection, from ,as context would lock its specific meaning, for example, a building which protects, we call it fortress, the dress which protects during fight is body armour.
And a woman who protects herself in sexual terms , is a Chaste woman , or a MOHSINNA meaning a chaste elligible Halal lady, or an eligible halal woman with no known bad reputation in sexual context.
Every one is considered chaste, and hence being called with this title, untill and unless proven otherwise. What she does seceretly, is between God and her. We can only consider what is known/proven.
--- to be continued.
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one last example.
21-91 and 66-12 which are in reference to Mary.
God uses the words AHSANATI FARJAHA in both the verses, if we take ahsanati in the same meaning which is Chastity then it makes sense , God does not call her only a Mohsinna here ( she was more than a MOHSINNA) , because He wants to convey slightly different meanings.
when we call some one as chaste, we mean that he/she does not use his/her sexual organs, except the legal way.
The case of Mary is described differently here, and the word ahsanti is combined with farjaha (sexual organs) giving precise meaning of protected sexual organs, or virginity,
Protected/Unused sexual organs convey , Virginity.
Precise use of AHSANATI FARJAHA in both the verses should clear all doubts regarding "Marry being married "or "jesus having a father". She was VIRGIN MARY.
peace
siki
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In the light of clear command in 5-5 for mohsinna's being halal and the same deduction indirectly from 4-25, and also, when we dont have any prohibiting word in 4-24 for mohsinnats, we can only conclude that ,
WAU" is linking the main subject, which is making it clear for you as to who are haram and now how to proceed for the halal ones. It is not linking the sub subject of continuing to list haram.
siki
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So what conclusion can you draw?
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So what conclusion can you draw?
I have been posting conclusions since very long, but no body seemed to understand, as majority is failing to link the dots.
If you are really interested in grasping this issue, I recommend that you go through the agony of reading all my above explanation. I have made it very easy , and covered every aspect leaving no confusion.
I think it would serve you well in future by building your understanding regarding relevent commandments in the book.
siki
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Peace Siki
- How are they halal ? not just that you agree and have a relationship, so the procedure/law is being issued in 4-24, That you should seek them with your money pay ajar before touching and have an agreed relationship for maintaining chastity , dont do it to satisfy your lusts only.
Can you expand on what you mean by procedure/law please.
Also i don't see how agreeing to have a relationship CAN'T be classed as nikah so if by procedure/law you mean the contractual rights in 424 isn't nikah the contractual rights mentioned in 424?424The women who are already married, except those whom you have contractual rights, God's book is over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be protected and not for illicit sex. As for those whom you have already had joy with them, then you shall give them their wage as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree to after the obligation. God is Knowledgeable, Wise
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In the light of clear command in 5-5 for mohsinna's being halal and the same deduction indirectly from 4-25, and also, when we dont have any prohibiting word in 4-24 for mohsinnats, we can only conclude that ,
WAU" is linking the main subject, which is making it clear for you as to who are haram and now how to proceed for the halal ones. It is not linking the sub subject of continuing to list haram.
siki
Hi siki,
Get ready to get harrassed. D
I guess the 'mohasanat' are women LOCKED by a dowry. Mohasanat are divided into 'Mohasanat from the women' which is forbidden to marry because they are married to believers and 'the believing Mohasanat' which are women who were married to disbelieving men but left them(during peace or war) due to their belief. Now, what your right hand possess will include believing free woman 'fatayat mominat' and believing married women 'mohasanat mominat'. Who is harder to marry?? The believing married women because you will have to return the dowry to their husbands and so we understand the following verse.
425 If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women 'Mohasant', they may wed believing girls 'fatayat' from among those whom your right hands possess And Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another Wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dowers, according to what is reasonable They should be chaste, not lustful, nor taking paramours when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, their punishment is half that for married women. This is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practise self-restraint. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
Hope that helps.
Peace,
Rami