Defenition of marriage suggests sex before marriage permitted?!

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

So what conclusion can you draw?

siki

So what conclusion can you draw?

I have been posting conclusions since very long, but no body seemed to understand, as majority is failing to link the dots.

If you are really interested in grasping this issue, I recommend that you go through the agony of reading all my above explanation. I have made it very easy , and covered every aspect leaving no confusion.

I think it would serve you well in future by building your understanding regarding relevent commandments in the book.

siki

nimnimak_11

Peace Siki

How are they halal ? not just that you agree and have a relationship, so the procedure/law is being issued in 4-24, That you should seek them with your money pay ajar before touching and have an agreed relationship for maintaining chastity , dont do it to satisfy your lusts only.

Can you expand on what you mean by procedure/law please.
Also i don't see how agreeing to have a relationship CAN'T be classed as nikah so if by procedure/law you mean the contractual rights in 424 isn't nikah the contractual rights mentioned in 424?

424The women who are already married, except those whom you have contractual rights, God's book is over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be protected and not for illicit sex. As for those whom you have already had joy with them, then you shall give them their wage as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree to after the obligation. God is Knowledgeable, Wise

Rami

In the light of clear command in 5-5 for mohsinna's being halal and the same deduction indirectly from 4-25, and also, when we dont have any prohibiting word in 4-24 for mohsinnats, we can only conclude that ,

WAU" is linking the main subject, which is making it clear for you as to who are haram and now how to proceed for the halal ones. It is not linking the sub subject of continuing to list haram.

siki

Hi siki,

Get ready to get harrassed. D

I guess the 'mohasanat' are women LOCKED by a dowry. Mohasanat are divided into 'Mohasanat from the women' which is forbidden to marry because they are married to believers and 'the believing Mohasanat' which are women who were married to disbelieving men but left them(during peace or war) due to their belief. Now, what your right hand possess will include believing free woman 'fatayat mominat' and believing married women 'mohasanat mominat'. Who is harder to marry?? The believing married women because you will have to return the dowry to their husbands and so we understand the following verse.

425 If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women 'Mohasant', they may wed believing girls 'fatayat' from among those whom your right hands possess And Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another Wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dowers, according to what is reasonable They should be chaste, not lustful, nor taking paramours when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, their punishment is half that for married women. This is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practise self-restraint. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Hope that helps.

Peace,

Rami

Hadi

Hi siki,

Get ready to get harrassed. D

I guess the 'mohasanat' are women LOCKED by a dowry. Mohasanat are divided into 'Mohasanat from the women' which is forbidden to marry because they are married to believers and 'the believing Mohasanat' which are women who were married to disbelieving men but left them(during peace or war) due to their belief. Now, what your right hand possess will include believing free woman 'fatayat mominat' and believing married women 'mohasanat mominat'. Who is harder to marry?? The believing married women because you will have to return the dowry to their husbands and so we understand the following verse.

425 If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women 'Mohasant', they may wed believing girls 'fatayat' from among those whom your right hands possess And Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another Wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dowers, according to what is reasonable They should be chaste, not lustful, nor taking paramours when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, their punishment is half that for married women. This is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practise self-restraint. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Hope that helps.

Peace,

Rami

Peace Rami,
I think you have just solved this mystery bravo. The bottom line is, basically If you can't afford to marry women to whom you have to pay a dowry twice(one dowry to them and the other to their disbelieving husbands) then marry the single girls(fatayat). This way you'll have to pay one dowry only. Simple. The only thing left for us to figure out is the meaning of ma malakat aymanukum.

Peace,

Hadi

siki

Peace Siki

Can you expand on what you mean by procedure/law please.
Also i don't see how agreeing to have a relationship CAN'T be classed as nikah so if by procedure/law you mean the contractual rights in 424 isn't nikah the contractual rights mentioned in 424?

424The women who are already married, except those whom you have contractual rights, God's book is over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be protected and not for illicit sex. As for those whom you have already had joy with them, then you shall give them their wage as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree to after the obligation. God is Knowledgeable, Wise

God's book is over you, conveys, Go by my book , look in here (book) for instructions, abide by the appropriate law relevant to the issue etc.

So govern your sexual relationships according to the instruction that He is issuing, and it says , seek them with your money , with an aim that you want to continue being chaste , meaning you are doing this to control your sexual desires, Not making it a regularised fornication or prostitution. And what ever you decide to give her as a wage , you must give her before you touch her.

"Mohsinnate" has to have one meaning. We can not translate it at as chaste, and at another as married. It is absolutely wrong to translate "Mohsinnate" as married. let me show you how.

4-25, if you cant marry a believing married women , marry a married believing young female among mma.

5-5 -- today all married believing women ,and married women of the people of the book are halal.

24-4 those who accuse married women and then fail bring in 4 witnesses flog them--- does that mean that one can accuse an unmarried chaste woman and get away with it?

24-23 Those who accuse believing married women who are careless === again same as above.

I know what you are trying to ask? but at this time I have to first fight this case out , later we will discuss ,as to why God has not used Nikah at certain places.

siki

siki

Hi siki,

Get ready to get harassed.

I guess the 'mohasanat' are women LOCKED by a dowry. Mohasanat are divided into 'Mohasanat from the women' which is forbidden to marry because they are married to believers and 'the believing Mohasanat' which are women who were married to disbelieving men but left them(during peace or war) due to their belief. Now, what your right hand possess will include believing free woman 'fatayat mominat' and believing married women 'mohasanat mominat'. Who is harder to marry?? The believing married women because you will have to return the dowry to their husbands and so we understand the following verse.

425 If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women 'Mohasant', they may wed believing girls 'fatayat' from among those whom your right hands possess And Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another Wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dowers, according to what is reasonable They should be chaste, not lustful, nor taking paramours when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, their punishment is half that for married women. This is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practise self-restraint. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Hope that helps.

Peace,

Rami

The beauty of the book is , that in it you will find no contradictions. If you translate/understand a word wrong, it will confront you at other places, and no matter what you do , It will throw out the wrong meaning and you will have no option but to go back and correct the meaning.

60-10 The issue is regarding women who have left their disbelieving husbands to come and join the believers.

Here the word used is Mominnats, Not "MOHSINNATS" because;

By using Mominnat, God is trying to covey that, any woman who is a believer,If leaves her disbelieving husband, due to religious incompatibility, test her first and then----It covers all from religious belief point of view.

Had it been Mohsinnate, then the ones who are not Mohsinnte, (Hallal category or the unchaste kind) this aya would not have covered.

siki

siki

If 'moahasant' mean married. How does is affect our understanding of the very controversial verse of prostitution.

2433 Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until Allah gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is Allah, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them),

Any ideas?

Mohsinnte does not mean Married and there is no such issue of Mohsinnte in this aya.

siki

Rami

The beauty of the book is , that in it you will find no contradictions. If you translate/understand a word wrong, it will confront you at other places, and no matter what you do , It will throw out the wrong meaning and you will have no option but to go back and correct the meaning.

60-10 The issue is regarding women who have left their disbelieving husbands to come and join the believers.

Here the word used is Mominnats, Not "MOHSINNATS" because;

By using Mominnat, God is trying to covey that, any woman who is a believer,If leaves her disbelieving husband, due to religious incompatibility, test her first and then----It covers all from religious belief point of view.

Had it been Mohsinnate, then the ones who are not Mohsinnte, (Hallal category or the unchaste kind) this aya would not have covered.

siki

Hi siki,

6010 O you who believe, if the believing women come emigrating to you, then you shall test them. God is fully aware of their belief. Thus, if you establish that they are believers, then you shall not return them to the disbelievers. They are no longer lawful for them, nor are the disbelievers lawful for them. And return the dowries that were paid. And there is no sin upon you to marry them, if you have paid their dowries to them. And do not keep disbelieving wives, and ask back what dowries you paid. And let them ask back what dowries they had paid. Such is God's judgment; He judges between you. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.

Does this mean that all the belieiving women who we will test their faith are always married? Could this also mean that we don't test the faith of the girls?

Peace,

Rami

Rami

Mohsinnte does not mean Married and there is no such issue of Mohsinnte in this aya.

siki

But the verse says if they want 'tahasun' or being a mohasinat.

siki

Hi siki,

6010 O you who believe, if the believing women come emigrating to you, then you shall test them. God is fully aware of their belief. Thus, if you establish that they are believers, then you shall not return them to the disbelievers. They are no longer lawful for them, nor are the disbelievers lawful for them. And return the dowries that were paid. And there is no sin upon you to marry them, if you have paid their dowries to them. And do not keep disbelieving wives, and ask back what dowries you paid. And let them ask back what dowries they had paid. Such is God's judgment; He judges between you. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.

Does this mean that all the believing women who we will test their faith are always married? Could this also mean that we don't test the faith of the girls?

Peace,

Rami

This is very specific situation, when a women converts, and does not want to be with her non believer husband, and she comes to momineens.
By testing her means , that she is a momina from within, and not taking you for a ride, probably spying against the believers. And when her dowry is returned in the shape of Nafaq, she is free. There is no need getting a divorce verdict from her non believing husband.

siki

Rami

This is very specific situation, when a women converts, and does not want to be with her non believer husband, and she comes to momineens.
By testing her means , that she is a momina from within, and not taking you for a ride, probably spying against the believers. And when her dowry is returned in the shape of Nafaq, she is free. There is no need getting a divorce verdict from her non believing husband.

siki

What about non-married women who want to join the believers? So what is your actual definition of 'mohasanat'?

siki

But the verse says if they want 'tahasun' or being a mohasinat.

"Tahsunna", is from the same root H7N, and hence conveys similar meanings as , protect, and in terms of sexuallity, protection means , that they want to be chaste.

The order is , "one should not force any young female under our control to commit wrong.
What wrong can one force a young female into in regards to sexuality if she wants to be chaste? "Fornication".
And when you force a young female into doing fornication to gain the worldly gains,
It becomes prostitution.

And if from within she does not want to be chaste, well No problems, both will be dealt with .

The order is specifically for those who desire to stay chaste, so God is telling them , " I know from within you want to protect yourself from these fahishas (to be chaste) but if you are forced into it against your will, Don't worry, I know your situation, so I am going to be most merciful, forgiving.

siki

siki

What about non-married women who want to join the believers? So what is your actual definition of 'mohasanat'?

Well they just come and join, No issue regarding giving Nafaq back or testing their faith.

Faith testing would be important when a marriage is being broken up unilaterally, children could suffer, or she could be leaving him due to some other reason , and hence could be trying to avail this clause.

Have you gone through my posts? I think i have repeated my difinition many a times.

siki

Rami

"Tahsunna", is from the same root H7N, and hence conveys similar meanings as , protect, and in terms of sexuallity, protection means , that they want to be chaste.

The order is , "one should not force any young female under our control to commit wrong.
What wrong can one force a young female into in regards to sexuality if she wants to be chaste? "Fornication".
And when you force a young female into doing fornication to gain the worldly gains,
It becomes prostitution.

And if from within she does not want to be chaste, well No problems, both will be dealt with .

The order is specifically for those who desire to stay chaste, so God is telling them , " I know from within you want to protect yourself from these fahishas (to be chaste) but if you are forced into it against your will, Don't worry, I know your situation, so I am going to be most merciful, forgiving.

siki

The verse is saying IF they want 'chastity'. Otherwise, is it ok to push girls into prostitution?

siki

The verse is saying IF they want 'chastity'. Otherwise, is it ok to push girls into prostitution?

please re-read last paragraph

And if from within she does not want to be chaste, well No problems, both will be dealt with .

The order is specifically for those who desire to stay chaste, so God is telling them , " I know from within you want to protect yourself from these fahishas (to be chaste) but if you are forced into it against your will, Don't worry, I know your situation, so I am going to be most merciful, forgiving.

siki

Rami

So what is opposite of Mohasana?

A 'Baghyia' or a prostitute?

So what is a 'Zanyia' -adulteress- then?

And what is a 'Fata' and why is they are sometimes used as the opposite group to 'Mohasanat'?

Can be 'fatayat' be prostitutes?!!

My mind is spinning!

Rami

please re-read last paragraph

OK, this is getting weird. Now God is addressing the rejectors. No sane believer will push his girls into prostitution. It is understandable that he will forgive the girls being pushed, but He didn't get mad on the pushers.

unknownuser

Peace siki,