Defenition of marriage suggests sex before marriage permitted?!
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Where is yours demand for equality gone , when you justify ajar as a payment for producing children and taking care of them? Are they not more yours than his?
Please read again the post you are referring to . Nobody is speaking about whose the children are. Actually they are neither the father's nor the mother's. They are not property, and nobody has said anything on this respect. What has been said is that the burden of reproduction, the part that cannot be redistributed, falls disproportionately on the woman. This is very plain, but you can always throw a tantrum about it.
Where is it written in 4-24 that these women are being paid ajar for child bearing and looking after the house. The simple word is ajar for sex. that is what quran says.
"De pi??n fijo" we say in Spanish of somebody who no matter what will always end up talking about the ONE thing that really matters, normally sex. Enjoy the association with a woman doesn't mean just the f... word. It doesn't say in 4.42 that it is the sex exercise part that they have enjoyed. And if it was that that would be a very good reason not to pay ajar, unless the woman also pays ajar, because she is not meant in the Qur'an not to extract pleasure, or can you prove that the Qur'an means the woman not to experience pleasure with sex? And even if you use the woman just for the lustful pleasure, you are not getting rid of the reproductive nature of the woman, so what you are purporting may make sense to people without a moral sense and without the will to get it, but not to the people the Qur'an is addressed to.
And in the absence of any marriage contract word(nikah) in 4-24, it simply is an agreed some to provide pleasure to the man who can afford it. And after that there is no obligation.
Of course it is you who says the part in red. The Qur'an does not say it. In fact if a child is born of that pleasure, are you saying that the Qur'an means the father is under no obligation whatsoever?
Man, women do not need any backscratching. What you say there is bewildering, wild. In fact what you are pushing is that very western women liberation stuff you say you abhorr so much.
Salaam
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Salaam
It seems our ideas are from different angles. I am not saying housechores cannot be shared, or they are the woman's "role". But as a matter of fact, women are the pro settlment side of the couple, and they are by nature more pro life, so it comes normal to their nature that they do these chores more than the husband, but God is granting them a paid "ajr" for that, a proof that it's not their duty.
As for pregnancy and child birth, I do not think that God assigned any role, other than this, to a human. It's even the only reason mentioned for the status of "both" parents the father is to be elevated to this status thanks to this "motherhood
3114
And We have enjoined man in respect of his parents-- his mother bears him with faintings upon faintings "
Such a role is too honourable to be paid for. It's priceless. -
Salaam
It seems our ideas are from different angles. I am not saying house chores cannot be shared, or they are the woman's "role". But as a matter of fact, women are the pro settlement side of the couple, and they are by nature more pro life, so it comes normal to their nature that they do these chores more than the husband, but God is granting them a paid "ajr" for that, a proof that it's not their duty.
As for pregnancy and child birth, I do not think that God assigned any role, other than this, to a human. It's even the only reason mentioned for the status of "both" parents the father is to be elevated to this status thanks to this "motherhood
3114
And We have enjoined man in respect of his parents-- his mother bears him with faintings upon faintings "
Such a role is too honourable to be paid for. It's priceless.First you ladies convey that ajar is a compensation for child bearing and rearing, then you come up with, "This role is too honorable to be paid for", and shuttle back "to be a payment for house hold chores".
Are you conveying, " that you consider yourselves a paid servant to a guy who needs one"? and also provide sexual services as a bonus, free and willingly. Is that what you mean?
siki
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Salaam siki
Now you are giving a new meaning to Muhsanat rich , beautiful and of status! So God prohibits the poor from marrying them as per 424! At least you acknowledge that the address in 424 is specific to a category of people....the poor. We are advancing.... albeit very very slowly.Richer family, higher cast, beauty,etc would always demand premium and you knew very well that I was just giving an example as to how things work in today's scenario. let me re emphsize that I am not giving any new meaning to the word mohsinnate. The truth is "you don't want to understand MMa are the one,s "That you posses with your right hand and are sex slaves" , And hence any mohsinna from this category would love to grab any such opportunity, which makes her a regular Mohsinna.
siki
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First you ladies convey that ajar is a compensation for child bearing and rearing, then you come up with, "This role is too honorable to be paid for", and shuttle back "to be a payment for house hold chores".
So that means, you consider yourself to be a paid servant for a guy who needs one, you also provide sexual services as a bonus, free and willingly. Is that what you mean?
siki
Salaam Siki
I protest on this tone of the language of the direct address.
Regards -
First MMA are a sub category of the muhsanat, and are not sex slaves
salam samia
Did I ever say that MMa are not a sub set off Mohsinnate? From the day one I am presenting , " one can marry only a Mohsinna, weather she is believing , otul kitab from MMa. Non mohsinnas from these categories are not recommended. It is brother TS , who contrast mosinnas with fatayats of mma, and hence an opposite.
Verse 2432 does not give description of women some people can not afford, but speaks of the marriage per se
Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until Allah gives them means out of His grace.
Did I also not say the same , that the ones who cant afford to marry a mohsinna(regular) maintain chastity, as per24-33? but then an alternate is being suggested in 4-25 , if they fear falling in sin ? I am posting that 10th time, and yet you present half of what God is conveying and ignore the logical link between the two commandments, for your own suiting.
siki
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Salaam Siki
I protest on this tone of the language of the direct address.
RegardsThis is precisely what samia and huruf have been making an effort to covey in the last couple of posts, and also keep shifting their positions whenever logically challenged. This will happen when someone does not want to understand a simple clear Arabic word Ajar. Which is a somthing of a value in finnacial terms , that you agree upon and give prior to deriving sexual pleasure.(4-24)
siki
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I'd appreciate it if the font size is kept normal and emphasis used sparingly. Please read the forum rules. Thanks.
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MMA are not the opposite of Muhsans. They are a sub category of them. They can be sexually able but agree to marry a sexaly disabled, and they both become MMA each other.
Samia salam
SIS honestly speaking , all this while I am/was never really sure , as to what exactly you understood by the terms, Mohsinnas MMA, I kept requesting you to define your understandings of these terms, So that i know my precise target.
But you intentionally keep/kept it vague , creating a room for safe maneuvering.OK, so you mean that MMA are sexually able but , they choose to marry sexually disabled ones.
) '( In that case how come they are a sub set of sexually disabled ones(mohsinnats) as per your own understanding?
Moreover,do we have an example in any society now , or trace in history, for such an official arrangement?
siki
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MMA are not the opposite of Muhsans. They are a sub category of them. They can be sexually able but agree to marry a sexaly disabled, and they both become MMA each other. Because they have no access to sex,
So you mean that when a mohsinna marries a mma, both become MMa? but Quran is screeming with proves that when A person marries an MMA , she becomes a Mohsinna?
Does quran talk of mohsinnats , or Mohsinns?
Is MMa a she or he?
siki
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Because they have no access to sex, this factor is taken into consideration and becomes a mitigating factor calling for half the punishment when they search for sex elsewhere. If they were slaves or poor, they should rather have this poverty and lack of freedom taken as a mitigating factor for stealing.
This is precisely what will happen, if you conceive and implement such an arrangement. The sexually able one will, I repeat WILL look for sex else where.
And that half does not mean zero, It means HALF, there is little difference between beaten up 100 or 50 times. And that is what (according to samia's arrangement),for sure, he/she is heading for.siki
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I do not even understand why the master will give her up for free!
Because God tells us to do so , and Momineen will oblige , for a recompense in hereafter. This is the spirit you have not been understanding samia, and not only that, remember to give them some thing of a value, off which what has God bestowed upon you.
24-33 And let those who do not find the means to marry keep chaste until Allah makes them free from want out of His grace. And (as for) those who ask for a writing from among those whom your right hands possess, give them the writing if you know any good in them, and give them of the wealth of Allah which He has given you----
MMA existed then , the quran issued commandments to improve their situation to a level , where they all gradually melted into society , and were no more.
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And even in sexless marriages, assuming their actuality, sex is there, and the burden of reproduction exists for the woman even without reproduction, because the mere fact that a woman theoretically might get pregnant is a burden even from birth. In the same way that army conscription is a burden for men where it exists even if there is no war ever. There might be a war. Women miss out on many things by the mere possibilities their sex evoques.
According to samia, it is sexless marriage, sexless marriage means one or both partners unable to have sex at all , then are you hinting at virgin pregnancy like Jesus?
If you consider MMA, a sexless marriage, why are you considring ajar as childbearing recompense? Had it been , 4-25 would have insisted upon NO Ajar, as this carried zero probability of a pregnancy. But on the contrary, 4-25 insists upon AJar.
How does one theoretically get pregnant in a sexless marriage?
In army conscription you are still doing 80% work , by training to keep you war ready, where as here you ain't even doing your basic duty (sex) what to talk of going through the burden of child bearing?
siki
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Please read again the post you are referring to . Nobody is speaking about whose the children are. Actually they are neither the father's nor the mother's. They are not property, and nobody has said anything on this respect. What has been said is that the burden of reproduction, the part that cannot be redistributed, falls disproportionately on the woman. This is very plain, but you can always throw a tantrum about it.
How does it fall disproportionally? She is carrying out her God given duty of bearing and rearing children, and he is doing his, by working to earn a living for all? Both are doing , what they are designed to do.
siki
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"De pi??n fijo" we say in Spanish of somebody who no matter what will always end up talking about the ONE thing that really matters, normally sex. Enjoy the association with a woman doesn't mean just the f... word. It doesn't say in 4.42 that it is the sex exercise part that they have enjoyed. And if it was that that would be a very good reason not to pay ajar, unless the woman also pays ajar, because she is not meant in the Qur'an not to extract pleasure, or can you prove that the Qur'an means the woman not to experience pleasure with sex? And even if you use the woman just for the lustful pleasure, you are not getting rid of the reproductive nature of the woman, so what you are purporting may make sense to people without a moral sense and without the will to get it, but not to the people the Qur'an is addressed to.
Tabtighu bi imwalkum, So seek them with your money, mohsinnena, Ghair e musfiheena, To maintain chaistiy,not for outpouring lust only, fama istamtatum bihi minhunna, and then what you extract out of them with it,
If you have some idea as to how arabic works, then you would know that a word conveys specific meaning due to context.
Istamtuaum, is exactraction out off , deriving from, and context is sexuall, (chaistity, not out pouring lusts only ) so this extraction form them in sexual context with the help off one's money, is kind of a benifit which must contain atleast a F... word that you mentioned.
And this is the primary benifit that one would gain from a woman, If you do not gain this, because one of you is sexually disabled,or is not intersted, then how can other partner go on being chaste and not out pour his/her lusts elsewhere?
siki
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First you ladies convey that ajar is a compensation for child bearing and rearing, then you come up with, "This role is too honorable to be paid for", and shuttle back "to be a payment for house hold chores".
Are you conveying, " that you consider yourselves a paid servant to a guy who needs one"? and also provide sexual services as a bonus, free and willingly. Is that what you mean?
siki
Salaam siki
I will respond for myself.
I dare you show me whre I said that ajr is a compensation for child bearing and rearing. I specifically mentioned that nursing is to be paid an is not a duty, nor is it part of the marriage ajr. This is from the qur'aan not me. But I also maintained that ajr is an on going payment, and only in my last post to huruf did I eaborate. I strongly rejected payment for sex, and criticized you for upholding such an understanding.And if I believe in a sexless marriage, and that this sexless marriage still has to have a paid ajr, how can I also maintain at the same time that ajr is for sex and child rearing?
I know what I say and remember it. You are the one who neither try to understand what I am saying, nor do you remember, or bother to go back to what I wrote.
Please quote me when you find such contradictions or flopping of opinions in my posts. -
Richer family, higher cast, beauty,etc would always demand premium and you knew very well that I was just giving an example as to how things work in today's scenario. let me re emphsize that I am not giving any new meaning to the word mohsinnate. The truth is "you don't want to understand MMa are the one,s "That you posses with your right hand and are sex slaves" , And hence any mohsinna from this category would love to grab any such opportunity, which makes her a regular Mohsinna.
siki
Does God divide people between higher and lower cast, so that He sets rules for them on these grounds? Does God say that the best to marry is the "higher cast, rich, beautiful"? No. It's always the mu'mins and the muttaqeen. These are YOUR rules, not God's, and God will not change His rules because in your society you have "higher casts" and "untouchables". This in the first place is against God's rules, morals and ethics. No divine rule would be based on them.
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salam samia
Did I ever say that MMa are not a sub set off Mohsinnate? From the day one I am presenting , " one can marry only a Mohsinna, weather she is believing , otul kitab from MMa. Non mohsinnas from these categories are not recommended. It is brother TS , who contrast mosinnas with fatayats of mma, and hence an opposite.
Remember, I was annswering your questions to me, not commenting on your understanding.
If you maintain that MMA are sub category of Muhsans, how come one becomes rich and of a higher status and the other a sex slave?
And this is what Tlepsh said about MMA (you are welcome!!)Also women who are immune (muhsanat) are prohibited for you, except those whom your oaths possess (except those who agree voluntarily) if Allah has written on you so.
If any of you have not the physical ability to marry immune women, they may marry believing girls from among those whom your oaths possess(among from those who agree voluntarily) and Allah has full knowledge about your Faith. You are one from another You shall marry them with the permission of their parents and give them their wage in kindness; They shall be
? immune (able to have sex),
? not wanting illicit sex
? not taking lovers.
If they become immune (wanting to have sex), then any of them who comes with lewdness shall have half the punishment of what is for the (normal) immune women of the retribution. This is for those who fear hardship from among you. But if you are patient it is better for you, and God is Forgiver, Merciful.And it's what I also maintain and agree with completely.