Is the Quran an eloquent hoax?
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Peace,
The Quran is a great literary work with an amazing purposeful orientation. Many Muslims, including me, believe in the Quran because of these characters. But the problem with the Quran is when it starts to talk about history, previous texts and prophets. This is where the Quran becomes very close to indefensible. Lets review some of the Quran outrageous claims
1)The Quran and the previous texts.
-The Torah with the Jews is good to go.
393 All the food was made lawful to the Children of Israel except what Israel forbade for himself before the Torah was sent down. Say ?Bring the Torah and recite it if you are truthful.?
543 And how can they make you their judge when they have the Torah, in which is God?s judgment; then they turn away after that. Those are not believers.
544 We have sent down the Torah, in it is guidance and a light; the prophets who have submitted judged with it for those who are Jews, as well as the Rabbis, and the Priests, for what they were entrusted of God?s Scripture, and they were witness over. So do not fear the people but fear Me; and do not purchase with My revelations a cheap price. And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the rejecters.
625 The example of those who were given the Torah, but then failed to uphold it, is like the donkey that is carrying a cargo of books. Miserable indeed is the example of people who denied God's revelations. And God does not guide the wicked people.
-Now the Quran enters a dilemma by highlighting some of the supposed content of the 'Torah'.
7157 ?Those who follow the Gentile messenger prophet whom they find written for them in the Torah and the Injeel; he orders them to goodness, and deters them from evil, and he makes lawful for them the good things, and he forbids for them the evil, and he removes their burden and the shackles that are upon them. So those who believe in him, and support him, and help him persevere, and follow the light that was sent down with him; these are the successful.?
9111 God has purchased from the believers their very lives and their wealth, that they will have Paradise; they fight in the cause of God so they kill and are killed; a promise that is true upon Him in the Torah and the Injeel and the Qur?an. And whoever fulfills this vow with God, then have good news of the pledge which you are concluded with. Such is the supreme success.
4829 Mohammed is the messenger of God, and those who are with him are severe against the rejecters, but merciful between themselves. You see them kneeling and prostrating, they seek God's blessings and approval. Their distinction is in their faces, as a result of prostrating. Such is their example in the Torah. And their example in the Injeel is like a plant which shoots out and becomes strong and thick and it stands straight on its trunk, pleasing to the farmers. That He may enrage the rejecters with them. God promises those among them who believe and do good works a forgiveness and a great reward.
Three big quotations that cannot be found anywhere in the hebrew literature. If that not a lie, so what is? Note the Quran calls the Hebrew text 'The Torah' or 'The Instruction'. If the Mosaic Law is THE instruction, then what this make of the Quran. Clearly, the author doesn't know the meaning of the word Torah. This will get clearer when the Quran uses the word Injil.
-The Book of Moses is with the Israelites.
240 O Children of Israel, remember My blessings that I had blessed you with, and fulfill your pledge to Me that I may fulfill My pledge to you, and revere Me alone.
3223 And We have given Moses the Scripture. So do not be in any doubt about meeting Him. And We made it a guide for the Children of Israel.
4053 And We have given Moses the guidance, and We made the Children of Israel inherit the Scripture.
4516 And We had given the Children of Israel the Scripture, and the judgment, and the prophethood, and We provided them with good provisions; and We preferred them over the worlds.
4610 Say ?Do you see that if it were from God, and you rejected it, and a witness from the Children of Israel testified to its similarity, and he has believed, while you have turned arrogant? Surely, God does not guide the wicked people.?-The Book sent to Mohammed confirms that of Moses!
2947 And similarly, We have sent down to you the Book. Thus, those whom We have given the Scripture will believe in it. Also, some of your people will believe in it. The only ones who mock Our revelations are the rejecters.
How is that even possible!
Most of the Quran stories comes directly from the Haggada.
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLgQkW5UTHM&feature=channel_page
174 And We decreed to the Children of Israel in the Scripture, that you will make corruption twice on Earth, and that you will become very high and mighty.
Sorry, not there in the scripture.
532 It is because of this that We have decreed for the Children of Israel ?Anyone who kills a person who has not committed murder, or who has not committed corruption in the land; then it is as if he has killed all the people! And whoever spares a life, then it is as if he has given life to all the people.? Our messengers had come to them with clarification, but many of them are, after this, still corrupting on the Earth.
Talmud.
-Silly Christian concepts made its way to the Quran.
a) Jesus confirms the Torah!
350 ?And authenticating what is present with me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden to you; and I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so be aware of God and obey me.?
Note he is confirming the Torah and now he is going to change it. Thats Roman Propaganda!
546 And We sent in their footsteps Jesus the son of Mary, authenticating what was present with him of the Torah. And We gave him the Injeel, in it is guidance and light, and to authenticate what is present with him of the Torah, and a guidance and lesson for the righteous.
The only way to confirm the Torah is to follow it. What the hell is the Injeel for?
616 And when Jesus, son of Mary, said ?O children of Israel, I am God's messenger to you, authenticating what is present with me of the Torah and bringing good news of a messenger to come after me whose name will be ?most acclaimed.?? But when he showed them the clear proofs, they said ?This is clearly magic?
If he really confirmed the Torah, the Jews would not have rejected him. But because he started to change the Law that is stated in the Mosaic text as unchangable. The Quran seem to want to seduce all factions like 'Don't worry, you have some truth too'.
b) Jesus was given the Injeel
Believe it or not. This is a purely Quranic concept that later became Christian. Today Christians think there is a revelation given to Jesus called the Gospel and seem to be content when the Quran says so though it could be used to refute the Quran completely. Yes, Christians are that stupid.
348 And He teaches him the Scripture and the Wisdom and the Torah and the Injeel. brickwall
546 And We sent in their footsteps Jesus the son of Mary, authenticating what was present with him of the Torah. And We gave him the Injeel, in it is guidance and light, and to authenticate what is present with him of the Torah, and a guidance and lesson for the righteous.
547 And let the people of the Injeel judge with what God has sent down in it. And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the vile ones.
5110 God said ?O Jesus son of Mary, recall My blessings upon you and your mother that I supported you with the Holy Spirit; you spoke to the people in the cradle and to middle-age; and I taught you the Scripture and the wisdom, and the Torah, and the Injeel; and you would create from clay the shape of a bird, then blow into it and it becomes a bird by My leave; and you heal the blind and the leaper by My leave; and you brought out the dead by My leave. And I have restrained the Children of Israel from you, that you came to them with proofs; but those who rejected amongst them said ?This is clearly magic!??Injil is definitely a Greek word and means Good News. Roman writers started to use Mithraism and Babylonian astrology to anounce the Good News of the advent of the Kingdom of God. So there is no such thing as 'The Gospel' given to Jesus. There are gospels written by many Roman writers talking about the advent of the Age of Pisces. You can write your own gospel if you want to. Now the Quran enters in the most fatalistic error ever
547 And let the people of the Injeel judge with what God has sent down in it. And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the vile ones.
So the Good News contain guidance and light and the people of this mysterious Book (that was LOST before it was ever written rotfl ) should judge by it! Simply, I can't defend the Quran anymore.
c) Jesus astrological pagan characters but with a twist.
-Born of a virgin BUT not the Son of God.
-Raised but NOT crucified.
-Supported by the Holy Spirit.
-Feast from Heaven.http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0fOrwtWxXM&feature=channel_page
-Lets judge by the Torah and Injeel and what is sent down to us!!!!
566 And if they had upheld the Torah and the Injeel, and what was sent down to them from their Lord, they would have been rewarded from above them and below their feet. From among them is a pious nation, but most of them only do evil.
568 Say ?O people of the Scripture, you are not upon anything until you uphold the Torah and the Injeel and what was sent down to you from your Lord.? And for many of them, what was sent down to you from your Lord will only increase them in transgression and rejection. So do not feel sorry for the rejecting people.Impossible paradoxical command.
2)Quran and Zoroastrianism
-Belief in the afterlife is very ancient.
238 We said ?Descend from it all of you, so when the guidance comes from Me, then whoever follows My guidance, they will have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.?
239 And those who disbelieve and deny Our revelations, they are the dwellers of Hell, in it they will abide.
2126 And Abraham said ?My Lord, make this a town of peace, and provide for its inhabitants of the fruits for whoever believes in God and the Last Day.? He said ?As for he who rejects, I will let him enjoy for a while, then I will force him to the retribution of the Fire, what a miserable destiny!?
2936 And to Midyan was their brother Shu?ayb. He said ?O my people, serve God and seek the Last Day, and do not roam the Earth corrupting.?Yet you can't find this belief in the ancient hebrew texts. The idea of Heaven, Hell and Judgement comes direclty from the Persians that heavily affected Jewish thought. Most Jews and Christians, without even knowing, believe in the Quranic Persian afterlife.
-Lets pray like the ancients!
23 Those who believe in the unseen, and uphold the communion, and from Our provisions to them they spend.
283 And We took the covenant of the Children of Israel ?You shall not serve except God, and regard your parents, and regard the relatives, and orphans, and needy, and say kind things to the people, and uphold the communion, and contribute towards betterment.? But then you turned away, except a few of you; you were objecting.
1087 And We inspired to Moses and his brother ?Let your people leave their homes in Egypt, and let these homes be your focal point, and hold the communion. And give good news to the believers.?Prayer is very fundamental in the Quran. Even of you think Salat is something else, its still a timed activity followed by an ablution. Salat and ablution are Persian concepts not found in the Torah. Jewish prayer is only found in the tradition. Persian hands seems to have reached the poor Jews.
-Lets fast like the people before us!
2183 O you who believe, fasting has been decreed for you as it was decreed for those before you, perhaps you may be righteous.
Sorry, no fasting in the Torah. Yom Kippur is a tradition. There is a monthly fast in some Zoroastrian schools though.
- Quran indefinsible historical and scientific errors.
No need to talk here. You probably know them. Or you probably twisted the text to conform with modern paradigms.
- The Quran doesn't really care about the later generations.
Like the Torah, the Quran is very local. Proof that you can't understand the Quran easily and there are many concepts were known to the Arabs back then. There is no way we can know them and the Quran doesn't bother to explain them eg. Hajj, Ramadan etc. for the sake of the later generations. Instead, it keeps repeating itself in historical stuff and the afterlife.
At the end of the day, Muslims believe in the Quran becuase of its eloquence although its claims can't be defended when studied and compared to previous texts that it claims it confirms.
'The Torah and Injil are still hidden somewhere underground waiting to be excavated to save the Quran from certain doom.' A confused Muslim mind.
Jewish remarks on the Quran I found interesting
'a bunch of derivative ramblings'
'the Quran doesn't make any sense'.Peace,
Rami
Very interesting indeed.
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Martyrdom in the previous scriptures
Is death endured for the word of God, and testimony of Christ.
Revelation 69 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held
Revelation 204 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
SAINTS
Forewarned of.
Matthew 1021 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
Matthew 249 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
John 162 They shall put you out of the synagogues yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
Should not fear.
Matthew 1028 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Revelation 210 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Should be prepared for.
Matthew 1624-25 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
Should resist sin unto.
Hebrews 124 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
Reward of.
Revelation 210 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Revelation 611 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Inflicted at the instigation of the devil.
Revelation 210 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Revelation 213 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
The Apostacy guilty of inflicting.
Revelation 176 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
Revelation 1824 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
Of saints, shall be avenged.
Luke 1150-51 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.
Exemplified.
Abel,
Genesis 48 And Cain talked with Abel his brother and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.1 John 312 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
Ahimelech and his fellow priests,
1 Samuel 2218-19 And the king said to Doeg, Turn thou, and fall upon the priests. And Doeg the Edomite turned, and he fell upon the priests, and slew on that day fourscore and five persons that did wear a linen ephod. And Nob, the city of the priests, smote he with the edge of the sword, both men and women, children and sucklings, and oxen, and asses, and sheep, with the edge of the sword.
Prophets and Saints of old,
1 Kings 184 For it was so, when Jezebel cut off the prophets of the LORD, that Obadiah took an hundred prophets, and hid them by fifty in a cave, and fed them with bread and water.)
1 Kings 1910 And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts for the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away.
Luke 1150-51 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.
Urijah,
Jeremiah 2623 And they fetched forth Urijah out of Egypt, and brought him unto Jehoiakim the king; who slew him with the sword, and cast his dead body into the graves of the common people.
John the Baptist,
Mark 627 And immediately the king sent an executioner, and commanded his head to be brought and he went and beheaded him in the prison,
Peter,
John 2118-19 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not. This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.
Stephen,
Acts 758 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
Primitive Christians,
Acts 91 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
Acts 224 And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.
Acts 2610 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.James,
Acts 122 And he killed James the brother of John with the sword.
Antipas,
Revelation 213 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
Prostration in the previous scriptures as verse 48.29 says
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597992.0
Many here have no real knowledge about the previous scriptures. Don't be lazy and watch some lectures in video google about the Old Testament. Its not a book of theology only like the Koran, its the story of the people of Israel and their history also. Anyways the Koran orders the Jewish community to hold on to the OT and the Christians to hold on to the Gospel while Muslims should hold on to the Koran. One religion but three communities. The Talmud, trinity and Sunnah is something else, 3 different religions and 20 different communities. Many websites are sectarian and they play with the verses of the Bible left and right. You need to study more and not be lazy. The Koran itself tells the prophet to seek knowledge about the previous scriptures but to be aware of deceits and tells him to tell the Rabbis and priets to bring the Book with them and read it aloud. Think about it, would anyone of you trust how Sunnis translate and quote verses from the Koran? You need to study and seek information and always look for multiple sources.
Meanwhile here is fasting in the previous scriptures
http//www.dianedew.com/fasting.htm
And this is only one of a very few websites that actually tells fasting like it is, the others put spin or try to convince you about something and rarely display the actual verses of the Bible about a topic. Many Christians have that habit. Seek knowledge the way God told His prophet in the Koran and don't be lazy.
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Peace Bigmo,
You know full well you can't add or remove anything from the instruction that God had given to the Israelites. It is an eternal instruction for all the generations of the Israelites. And anyone who teaches other than that should be rejected. So if the Torah is true, then all of what you have said is refuted.
Peace,
Rami
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This is very interesting indeed. I was reading Reza Aslan's No God but God, and I believe (I could be wrong) that he claims that for the first two centuries after the prophet the Torah was read along side the Quran. I was, also dumbfounded by this ingeel-gospel concept as well (why wasn't the ingeel read along side the Quran and Torah). I've heard Jewish arguments that the Ingeel is not a valid scripture as well.
But isn't it well known that the Torah contains more scientific-historical errors than the Quran (if it contains any).
Weeding through this religious, historical, scientific mess is extremely confusing and overwhelming.
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Though the Jews have the strongest position in the Abrahamic religions, the Torah and the rest of the OT is actually embarassing to read. Imagine trying to defend it!
Pure Madness.
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pt66kbYmXXk&feature=channel_page
Don't let me start on the Book of Leviticus. A bunch of comical non-sensical rules.
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttOMr54aEdU Some fowl language here.
At least the Quran is a bit sane and has a higher goal.
Peace.
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Just wondering...did you get the Jesus/Age of Pisces from the rediculous Zeitgiest movie?
Peace.
Well, Yes, which came from Jordan Maxwell. Actually it is stolen from Mithraism. And Zeitgeist is not rediculous. Most of its claims is straightforward. Yes, astrology is a significant part of religion. Is that why the Quran swears by the position of the stars? Very possible.
Peace,
Rami
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Well, Yes, which came from Jordan Maxwell. Actually it is stolen from Mithraism. And Zeitgeist is not rediculous. Most of its claims is straightforward. Yes, astrology is a significant part of religion. Is that why the Quran swears by the position of the stars? Very possible.
Peace,
Rami
The problem with Rami is he doesn't understand the previous scriptures. He probably never really read it. He gets it from websites that cherry pick. He likes to quote verses about killing and destruction yet we know God destroyed the people of Noah and Lot and Salih. Many of them were children and women and old men. God creates and He owns the soul. There are earthquakes and follods that kill thousands and thousands of people. In the end it does not matter cause every sould will be raised and will be judged with equity.
Another thing about Rami is he looks at the scriptures theocratically as if the Bible made up these rules. These rules existed long before the Bible and what you may think is barbaric, the Romans, Persians, Babylonians and other nations saw them as normal. Many centuries from now people would look at us and see a barbaric bunch of people killing each other and dropping bombs and slaughtering each other over ideology and money and slaughtering animals day and night to feed on them. Who are we to judge others? This is not paradise where we live in peace and harmony. The Koran tells us how Adam was warned not to eat from the tree or he will struggle. And here we are struggling and going through trials and tribulation. No one is exempt from the pain of this world. Babies do not come to this world laughing and smiling, they come crying. Remember that.
Rami also seems to think that these laws are binding yet Jesus himself did not pratice these laws and was accused of blasphemy. The Koran tells us that some of these restriction the Israelites imposed on themselves before even Moses came. It also tells us the Sabbath was a test for the jews and some of these legal restriction was done out of punishment. But there is many laziness here and people do not read. They know the Koran well cause they debate it but they really do not know the previous scriptures well. The OT is a large collection spanning 900 years and not 22 years like the Koran or 5 years like the Gospel. Remember that.
Just my 2 cents.
I highly recommend this lecture that introduces the Old Testament
http//video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4487558855309830711&ei=CUYiSvbLCdaI-Abdv7zOAw&q=old+testament&hl=en&emb=1
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Peace,
To Bigmo,
Four simple questions needing four simple answers.
To whom was Jesus sent?
Is the Torah still binding on the Israelites?
How many instructions(torah) are out there?
Which Torah did Jesus uphold?
Peace,
Rami
Jesus was sent to mankind. The Torah is all the previous scriptures before Jesus which jesus studied and preached even as a child. The Torah is an all inclusive word meaning the previous scriptures. There are many different scriptures inherited from the past. Some made their way into the canonical collections some did not. Others were lost in time. The Torah is not the speech of God to Moses although it contains that, its not the tablet that was given to Moses althought its contained there in the Torah. The koran actually does not seperate the scriptures, the communities differ due to God's own plan. Its about what humans have inherited from the scriptures. Muslims have inherited the Koran, jews the OT and Christians the OT and the Gospel and other scriptures. Catholics have scriptures that are not with protestants.
The Koran is God's speech to Muhammad via the angel Gabriel. I don't know the process of communication, whether visionary or actual contact with Gabriel. I am NOT an expert in this but you should not take knowledge from me. But i see laziness. Watch the video lecture from yale university, its a good intro and watch other lectures about the origins of the OT.
Start watching from minute 16 onwards when she describes what is the OT and what it's not.
http//video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4487558855309830711&ei=CUYiSvbLCdaI-Abdv7zOAw&q=old+testament&hl=en&emb=1
I am NOT an expert but I do spend some time trying to understand the OT more. You need some background knowledge. Its not the Koran and the Koran itself differs in its Meccan verses and Medina verses and the difference is just based on the biography of Muhammad spanning just 22 years at most. Imagine a literature that spans 900 years and includes the biography of tens of prophets and was narrated by at least 4 or maybe more people. They are humans and not God, they don't know whats inside men or whats hidden from the eyes and ears of humans or what is the truth or falsehood. But that is what God has chosen for humans to inherit. In it is guidance and wisdom and the message of the prophets.
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God bless you Bigmo you preach it brother. ;D
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-Lets fast like the people before us!
2183 O you who believe, fasting has been decreed for you as it was decreed for those before you, perhaps you may be righteous.
Sorry, no fasting in the Torah. Yom Kippur is a tradition. There is a monthly fast in some Zoroastrian schools though.
I dont think you read the Bible.
Exodus 3428
Moses remained there on the mountain with the Lord forty days and forty nights. In all that time he ate no bread and drank no water. And the Lord wrote the terms of the covenant?the Ten Commandments ?on the stone tablets.Deuteronomy 918
Then, as before, I threw myself down before the Lord for forty days and nights. I ate no bread and drank no water because of the great sin you had committed by doing what the Lord hated, provoking him to anger.Daniel 93
So I turned to the Lord God and pleaded with him in prayer and fasting. I also wore rough burlap and sprinkled myself with ashes.Acts 1423
Paul and Barnabas also appointed elders in every church. With prayer and fasting, they turned the elders over to the care of the Lord, in whom they had put their trust. -
Hello Rami,
Can you please tell us why you believe taurat as mentioned in Quran is the torah?
thanks.
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Hello Rami,
Can you please tell us why you believe taurat as mentioned in Quran is the torah?
thanks.
you have an appropriate name for such a discussion laugh
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The variety of Torah texts
A Torah scroll in which a single letter is missing or extra is invalid (Maimonides, Laws of a Torah Scroll,). In the Zohar it is written (part two, Mishpatim), "The whole Torah is the name of the holy One, blessed be He -- and if one removes a single letter from it, it is as though he had damaged His name, may it be praised;" this is also brought in the introduction to the Minchat Shai, see there.
Therefore most religious people do indeed believe, with an innocent faith, that the Torah text which we have is the text which Moses received on Mount Sinai. A singular and unique text which has been passed down from generation to generation without change, without the addition or deletion of a single letter, G-d forbid -- for a change would have invalidated the scroll, as our great Rishonim said. (But the most meticulous admit that there is a minor difference in the number of letters between our scrolls and those of the Yemenite community.)
But I will prove, with proofs most clear, that all this has no base in reality at all! When one researches this, will see explicitly that we don't possess a singular and unique well established Torah text, and that differences between the texts are not of a letter or two, but of dozens and hundreds of letters. Moreover, when one looks at the words of the Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmuds, words of the Midrashim and the Zohar, will see that the Torah scrolls the Tanaaim and Amoraim had before them were different from the texts we have. If we say that the text Chazal had was the true text given to Moses at Sinai, we are forced to say that the text we have is not, and all our Torah scrolls must be considered invalid!
Now I present to you, You who demands truth, the editions of the Torah which we have in print. There are three. Pay attention and see that all these texts are edited and meticulously proofread from dozens of Torah scrolls on parchment, from our generation and from previous ones
The first Torah text is the Koren edition,. It is said there "The proofreading of this edition was done most carefully and through thorough examination, as much as is humanly possible, based on the opinion of the Masorah, the grammarians, and the commentators, and based upon what is found in the majority of manuscripts and printed editions considered to be reliable. It was not a blind copy of this or that printed edition or manuscript." This is the version most common in the Halachic world, and it is found on D.B.S's Jewish sources CD. Those who leap and skip about in Torah codes do their tricks on this text.
The second Torah text The Adi edition of the Hebrew Bible is based on an ancient Masoretic codex known as the Leningrad manuscript. It was written about a thousand years ago, in 1008 CE, and the whole of it has been preserved. The Adi edition of Leningrad and it is the version used in the Bar Ilan University's Responsa Project CD. (It is also the version given to IDF soldiers at their oath-of-allegiance ceremony.
The third Torah text The Mosad HaRav Kook's edition of the Hebrew Bible, proofread by R' Mordechai Breuer (hereafter Breuer). In "Daat Miqrah" (The text and its sources, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers) he wrote "The textin this edition was proofread based on the Leningrad manuscript B19a, the Sasson manuscript 507, the Sasson manuscript 1053, and the Venice edition of Miqraot Gedolot, 5284-5286 . In cases of disagreement between the sources, a decision was made based on the Masorah (of the Ramah or of the Minchat Shai) or according to the majority text as in Leningrad, Sasson 507, Sasson 1053, and Miqraot Gedolot." And in a note he added "In cases a decision was made based on the ktiv tradition of the Yemenite community." About the text of this edition it has been written "..the final outcome of this comparative procedure is a printed text almost completely identical with Codex A and the Yemenite tradition" (Emanuel Tov, "Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible".
No effort was spared; these three texts have been compared word by word, letter by letter. Be astonished and marvel, they have found no less than 105 differences between the texts! These are texts which were proofread and checked against Torah scrolls throughout the world, against manuscripts and the Masorah books of the Ramah and of the Minchat Shai! Go figure the number of differences between the scrolls which were used by the proofreaders, if after all their efforts there were still 105 letter-differences! Each and every one of these differences invalidates the entire Torah scroll!
In short, most contemporary Torah scrolls use the Koren text, and those who read from them Mondays, Thursdays, and on Shabbat will innocently think that they are reading the exact text given to Moses at Sinai
See something terrible. If we check the Koren text against explicit gemaras, midrashim, and the Zohar, we will immediately see that the text we now have is not at all the text that the Tanaaim and Amoraim used!
In a list of differences there is a big list of spellings, based on midrashim, the Talmud, and the Zohar, that do not match our Torah scrolls at all. We will easily find that the letter sequence of the Torah which was before the writer of the Zohar, for example, was different from ours as was the Torah of the Tanaaim, Amoraim, and authors of the midrashim
Anyone who has eyes to see will immediately recognize that it is not possible for the Torah scrolls of Chazal, of the Zohar, and even of the Rishonim to be the text we now possess. And since it is not possible, G-d forbid, that the text which Chazal, the heavenly Tanna, the author of the Zohar, or the authors of the midrashim and the great Rishonim had was a text "not from Sinai," we are forced to admit that our text is that which is "not from Sinai," with all that it implies.
Incidentally, I will mention that any, who see the many distortions which occurred over the generations, will immediately understand that all the nonsense about Torah codes (a common phenomenon in this computer age) have no hold on or proof of the original Torah text. See for yourself one who works codes according to the Leningrad text or the Zohar text or according to the text used in the Talmud and the midrashim will find, in each text, different results for the skip. Anyone seeing this would just laugh.
Note that the matter of changing texts was known even in the time of the Talmud. Therefore, according to the Halacha, what is to be done when we do not know the precise text of the Torah?
In Tractate Soferim 64 it is said "Rabbi Shimon ben Lakish said Three scrolls of the Torah were found in the Temple court The Maon scroll, the Zaatutei scroll, and the He scrollso they retained the reading of the two and abandoned that of the one ." The decision was according to the majority of the scrolls, based on "after the multitude to sway" (Exodus 232).
This determination was correct for the period of Chazal, when there was as yet no Masorah to follow, but in our days when we have the Masorah and even direct evidence from the Talmud and midrashim, what shall we do when there are differences between existing scrolls, the Talmud's text, and the Masoretic text? Decisions on this important matter became the province of vast debates, between the Rashba, Meiri and Ramah, none of whom agree with each other.
Notice that all these poskim did not deny the changes in the text and the differences between the text of their days and the text of the Torah which Chazal possessed. They fully admitted the discrepancies, and only ruled how one should determine matters stemming from them. And we say that according to all the findings before us and according to the testimony of our rabbis the Masoretes, it is clear that throughout the generations many distortions befell the Torah text, and the texts grew farther and farther from the "Divine" text which G-d dictated and Moses wrote down (Menachot 30a). It is also clear that the Torah text was determined, in each and every generation, by the rabbis of that generation. It seems reasonable that as the generations passed, the distortions multiplied, and the text grew even farther from the one Chazal possessed. It is no wonder that with all this plethora of texts and changes even the best proofreaders of our day cannot produce a single unified text. The constitution of the Holy Writ was determined by the Oral Torah -- that is, the text itself and its holiness was agreed upon by human sages, based on their reasoning and study, and is not from the Heavens.
Here are words clear as the sun about the many different texts of the Torah ("those who copied them made decisions based on their own opinion, each adding and subtracting as he saw fit, and they corrupted the text with things they made up"!) -- what more can I add?
I will conclude with the words of the Ginat Veradim (Orach Chaim, rule two, paragraph six) who says what I have already said many times just as the Halacha is a human creation accepted by public mandate, so what we accept as the Torah text is absolutely based on human Halachic determination. This is what he says "The is is the conclusion generally, the scribes of previous generations who worked hard at the Masorah and were exacting on matters of defective and plene spelling and disagreements between scrolls-- when they agreed on a matter, they only agreed because they followed the majority of books worthy of being followed. Therefore the tikun soferim we possess, written for us by the Rishonim, should not be added to nor subtracted from. We consider it as though it were handed to us at Sinai."
What a wonderful phrase is "as though"! A cure for every ill, an answer for every contradiction and a glue for every crack. Come see what wonders can be worked with it. In the Torah it is written that the hyrax is a ruminant, but it isn't? Say "as though" (and that is exactly what the Sreidei Aish does). There's no mention in the Gemara of the proper method to intercalate years? Say "as though" it had been established during the Talmudic era (thus was "Rav Ada's method" invented). In Tractate Chulin it is said that the windpipe divides into three, and anyone can see that this is not so? Say "as though" (and until this very day every working ritual slaughterer and those who check them say "as though". "As though" and again "as though," wherever you look, it is "as though." From now on, any time they use most clear proofs to show you that the Halacha is not from the Heavens and that the Torah is not from the Heavens, that they are all the works of Man, you may surely use the "as though" principle But if you are a free thinking person, proud of yourself, look reality and truth straight in the eye and accept the judgement of your senses and knowledge, your reason and your logic, without any "as though." Then you will be a complete person and not merely "as though."
Anyone with an honest heart will understand, and anyone with an honest mind will agree.
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Is the Bible unknown to the Qur'an?
When Christians use the testimony of the Qur'an in support of the Bible's integrity, some Muslims argue that the Qur'an does not relate to present day versions of the Torah and the Gospel. They say that the "Scriptures", which Christians and Jews had at the time of Muhammad (571 - 632 CE), were different from those available today. That the Jews of Muhammad's day were reading a different Torah, something which was "certainly not identical", "nor resembled anything like the Old Testament" which contains the reports, stories and myths of groups of people gone by. Similarly the Injil (Gospel) was "not at all identical with the New Testament or even the four gospels" available to us today (Izzat Khan and Abu Abdullah, Divine Revelations, The Muslims and the Bibles A Clarification, pp. 4-6).
It is stated that when the Qur'an talks about a single book known as the Gospel (as given to Jesus) and a single book as given to Moses (known as the Torah) that they were not the four gospels as we find them in the New Testament nor the first five books of the Old Testament known today as the Torah. To conclude the matter, such Muslims add that even the title "Bible" for the Scriptures of the Jews and Christians is foreign to the Qur'an.
The word 'Bible'
Any good dictionary will explain that the word Bible is derived from the Greek word biblia (neuter plural), which means "books". As the collections of Jewish and Christian texts came increasingly to be considered as one unit, the term in Latin began to be understood as feminine singular, denoting "The Book". The same word has come through to Modern English in words like bibliography. So when the title Bible, the book, was used, it denoted a collection of writings or books of the Christian and Jewish Scriptures.
It is indeed true that the title "Bible" is not used in the Qur'an nor does it contain the proper title, "Bible" for the scriptures of the Jews and Christians but has identified it as "Kitab" (the Book) by calling the followers as "Ahlal Kitab", the people of the Book. Although, the Qur'an has borrowed many foreign terms and names like Tawrat, Furqan, Injil, Isa and Musa etc.; and Arabized them into its text, when it came to using the word Bible, it used its own Arabic words derived from Hebrew and Aramaic, thus calling the Jews and Christians "Ahlal Kitab", the people of the book, and referring to their scripture not only as "the book", Kitab, but also listing the parts of it as the Tawrah, Zaboor, Injil and Sahaif (Torah, Psalms, the Gospel(s) and the books of the prophets respectively).
Therefore the notion that the Qur'an does not mention the Bible is simply wrong. It will be like saying that the Qur'an does not mention "God". The Muslim listener will refer to many verses where Arabic words like "Allah" or "Rab" are mentioned. If those words stand for God in the Qur'an then it should not be difficult to recognise that the words Ahlal Kitab stands for Jews and Christians and their Kitab stands for their scriptures - the Bible - in the contexts as referred to them in the Qur'an.
Torah and the Injil
Some Muslim writers contend that the original Pentateuch and the original Gospel have disappeared and became extinct from the world. For example, the late Rahmatullah, whose writings are still prominent among Muslim readers, expanded this claim by asserting, "We strictly deny that the original Torah (Pentateuch) and the original Evangel existed at the time of the Prophet Muhammad and that they were not changed until later." He added further by claiming that, "The present gospels, chronicles and epistles are certainly not the Evangel referred to by the Holy Qur'an and so they are not, as such, acceptable to the Muslims."(Rahmatullah, Izharul Haqq, Part III, p.30-31)
Similarly, Yusuf Ali, whose translation and commentary is popular among Muslims in the West, claims that "the Injil (Greek, Evangel = Gospel) spoken of by the Qur'an is not the New Testament. It is not the four Gospels now received as canonical. It is the single Gospel which, Islam teaches, was revealed to Jesus, and which he taught. Fragments of it survive in the received canonical Gospels ..." (Yusaf Ali, The Holy Qur'an, p.292, (Saudi Arabian Edition, p.334)
Christians believe there is indeed one Injil, brought by Jesus, the Christ. The word Injil in Arabic is a transliteration of the Greek Evangelion as Yusaf Ali has rightly mentioned in his statement. The Greek word Evangelion means "happy message" or "good news". Distinguished Muslim commentators like Baidhawi and Zamakshari openly admit that Injil is not an Arabic word but is derived from the Syriac and/or Greek word Evangel - the Gospel, the good news. Taking this as true, one should look no further than among those who have been using this term for their scriptures in Muhammad's time and even before then. When we look at the documentary evidences available to us even before Muhammad, it can be concluded that a long time before Islam started, these titles were used for the collection of the Judaeo-Christian scriptures as available today.
If the Gospel and the Torah spoken of by the Qur?an are not the same as the Old and the New Testament (known also as the Injil and Tawrat among millions of Arabic, Farsi, Urdu and Turkish speaking Christians) and did not exist in the same form as in Muhammad's time, then what was the Qur'an referring to? Why did the Qur'an require Christians and Jews to accept the Old and New Testament of Muhammad's time? Why did the Qur'an tell the Jews and Christians to follow their scriptures if they were not yet in existence or were only available in corrupted versions? If a Muslim is to believe in the integrity of the Qur'an then he has also to believe that in Muhammad's time the scriptures of the Jews and Christians existed and that the Qur'an certified their message by saying that they contained guidance and light (Surah 547,49). If somehow the author of the Qur'an was doubtful of the integrity of the previous scriptures, why does it ask both Jews and Christians to follow them in their decisions?
Some Muslims assume that the Qur'an only confirmed and testified to the "original autographs" of the Torah and the Gospel, although the evidence within the Qur'an itself testifies that it was referring to that which was actually available, there and then, to the Jews and Christians. For example, to confirm and uphold their scriptures, the Qur'an uses the following words musadiqalima mahum (confirming what is with them), musadiqalima bainah yadih (confirming that which is between their hands) and musadiqalima makum (confirming that which is with them) (Surah 241,89; 33, 447; 548; 3531 and so on).
In the light of the available evidence of manuscripts (both incomplete and whole), it can be said with certainty that the Old and the New Testaments of Muhammad's time were exactly the same as available today. Today's Bible translations are based on existing manuscripts that go back even hundreds of years before Muhammad's day. Hence the logic of the Qur'anic verses immediately is that the Injil and Torah as mentioned in the Qur'an are the same as those available to us today in the New Testament and Old Testament of the Bible.
In Judaism, there is a book called "the Pentateuch" or "the five books of Moses" which are identical to those in the Bible. These books contain the major part of the Jewish law and are known as the Tawrat/Torah/Law. However, Jews often use the same term to describe the whole collection of books, which Christians call the Old Testament. It is interesting to read in a tradition of Islam that the Torah read by the Jews of Madina also included the book of Isaiah, which indicates that the Qur'an was referring to the whole collection of the Jewish scriptures with the word Torah and not just what was revealed to Moses. (See, for example, the Islamic tradition transmitted by Bukhari, Darimi and is available in Mishkat al, Masabih, Vol. II, p. 1232).
http//www.itl.org.uk/topics/kitab.html
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Rami you have your opinion and I will have mine and lets leave it at that. like somebody said I do not think this site is for me I might find a christian one instead