Quran inheritance mistake
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Kalala no father, no spouse.
4176 says if Kalala (no father, no spouse) has no child.Simple.
.Thiese words between paranthese Are they there in the verse or they are your understanding? Let's see verse 4176
They ask thee for a legal decision. Say Allah directs (thus) about those who leave no descendants or ascendants as heirs. If it is a man that dies, leaving a sister but no child, she shall have half the inheritance If (such a deceased was) a woman, who left no child, Her brother takes her inheritance If there are two sisters, they shall have two-thirds of the inheritance (between them) if there are brothers and sisters, (they share), the male having twice the share of the female. Thus doth Allah make clear to you (His law), lest ye err. And Allah hath knowledge of all things.
(Translation by A. Y. Ali) -
Thiese words between paranthese Are they there in the verse or they are your understanding? Let's see verse 4176
They ask thee for a legal decision. Say Allah directs (thus) about those who leave no descendants or ascendants as heirs. If it is a man that dies, leaving a sister but no child, she shall have half the inheritance If (such a deceased was) a woman, who left no child, Her brother takes her inheritance If there are two sisters, they shall have two-thirds of the inheritance (between them) if there are brothers and sisters, (they share), the male having twice the share of the female. Thus doth Allah make clear to you (His law), lest ye err. And Allah hath knowledge of all things.
(Translation by A. Y. Ali)If kalala is those who do not leave descendants or ascendants why is it stated that "if a woman, who ledt no child". If it is a kalala she left no child aboviously, why is it stated?
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Well, I may be wrong in assuming it, but the fact that the formula "to the male the part of two females" appears exactly alike in 4.11 and 4. 176 might serve to uphold that that is a general formulation that rules in both cases, and which even though in 4.11 it is not stated that if there are sons and daughters, the same as in 4.176 it is stated if there are brothers and sisters, it is assumed that in both cases, the the male twice the two females is a general rule when there are mixed sexes. So I ould like to know how Sharour deals with that, and any other point of view which may throw light on the matter.
SALAAM
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If kalala is those who do not leave descendants or ascendants why is it stated that "if a woman, who ledt no child". If it is a kalala she left no child aboviously, why is it stated?
The literal translation is hey ask you about the kelala say God tells you if a man dies and does not have descendents, and he has a sister she will get half of what he left - and he will inherit all that she left if (when she dies) she has no descendents- and if they were two (sisters of the kelala) they get the two thirds and if they wre siblings men and women the male gets twice the share of the two females.
This woman is the sister of the kelala, and she does not have to be kelala.
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Well, I may be wrong in assuming it, but the fact that the formula "to the male the part of two females" appears exactly alike in 4.11 and 4. 176 might serve to uphold that that is a general formulation that rules in both cases, and which even though in 4.11 it is not stated that if there are sons and daughters, the same as in 4.176 it is stated if there are brothers and sisters, it is assumed that in both cases, the the male twice the two females is a general rule when there are mixed sexes. So I ould like to know how Sharour deals with that, and any other point of view which may throw light on the matter.
SALAAM
Shahrour confirms in this case that the formula for siblings (whether they are children or siblings of the deceased) maintain this formula, and that it is not applicable in other cases, i.e it is not a universal formula for a mixed gender heirs if they are not siblings.
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Salaam,
Thiese words between paranthese Are they there in the verse or they are your understanding? Let's see verse 4176
They ask thee for a legal decision. Say Allah directs (thus) about those who leave no descendants or ascendants as heirs. If it is a man that dies, leaving a sister but no child, she shall have half the inheritance If (such a deceased was) a woman, who left no child, Her brother takes her inheritance If there are two sisters, they shall have two-thirds of the inheritance (between them) if there are brothers and sisters, (they share), the male having twice the share of the female. Thus doth Allah make clear to you (His law), lest ye err. And Allah hath knowledge of all things.
(Translation by A. Y. Ali)Use literal translation (less ambiguity) and if a meaning is uncertain leave alone; it can be derived logically
4176 They ask your clarification, say "God decrees in alkalalati, if (a) human died, not for him a child, and for him a sister, so for her half what he left, and he inherits her if was not for her a child, and if they were two, so to them the two thirds from what he left, and if they were brethren men and women, so to the male equal fortune the two females, God clarifies for you that you (not) be misguided, and God is with every thing knowledgeable.
Trying to solve sister, mother mother get 1/6 and sister get 5/6 ?
Not correct -- what verses did you use? If you used below
411
so if ikhwatun/brethren were for him, so to his mother the 1/6Now use same methodology to solve
Ex either spouse, mother?
Ex either spouse, mother, sister?
Ex either spouse, mother, 2 sisters
Ex either spouse, mother, 2 sisters, brother?Ex either spouse, parents?
Ex either spouse, parents, sister?
Ex either spouse, parents, 2 sisters
Ex either spouse, parents, 2 sisters, brother?Ex 2 sisters, brother?
The above have to be consistent.
Shahrour confirms in this case that the formula for siblings (whether they are children or siblings of the deceased) maintain this formula, and that it is not applicable in other cases, i.e it is not a universal formula for a mixed gender heirs if they are not siblings.
Which formula, case example please?
411 distributions are not the same as in 4176 which states
...and for him a sister (i.e. only 1 sister), so for her 1/2
...and if they were two (i.e. only sisters present), so to them the 2/3
...and if they were brethren men and women (i.e. mixed any combination), so to the male equal fortune the two femalesCannot state case if 2 females 2/3 then give different instructions for the case of two females -- that's a contradiction!
Peace
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Salaam,
Use literal translation (less ambiguity) and if a meaning is uncertain leave alone; it can be derived logically
Salaam Eid
I already posted my literal translation when I needed it (The literal translation is hey ask you about the kelala say God tells you if a man dies and does not have descendents, and he has a sister she will get half of what he left - and he will inherit all that she left if (when she dies) she has no descendents- and if they were two (sisters of the kelala) they get the two thirds and if they wre siblings men and women the male gets twice the share of the two females.
. The Arabic version in this post was what mattered because I was asking you if some words you added were actually in the verse.
411
so if ikhwatun/brethren were for him, so to his mother the 1/6Now use same methodology to solve
Ex either spouse, mother?
Ex either spouse, mother, sister?
Ex either spouse, mother, 2 sisters
Ex either spouse, mother, 2 sisters, brother?Ex either spouse, parents?
Ex either spouse, parents, sister?
Ex either spouse, parents, 2 sisters
Ex either spouse, parents, 2 sisters, brother?Ex 2 sisters, brother?
The above have to be consistent.
Which formula, case example please?
411 distributions are not the same as in 4176 which states
It's verse 11. I do not have to go through all the 8 assumptions you are giving as examples, because the question is that the deceased left a mother and a sister.
Of course the distributions are not the same with verse 4176, because these are two different settings
411 deceased is not kelala (has a mother)
4176 deceased is a kelala does not have a mother.So far I do not know how you understand a kelala, although I asked you before. Maybe that's why you are complicating the issue.
In a nutshell
The heirs as mentioned in the qur'aan are- Children. These are the highest level of heirs they always inherit, and only parents and spouse of deceased may share with them. Siblings of deceased are curtailed by them.
- Parents of deceased they also always inherit, but can share with spouses, children and siblings of the deceased.
- Spouses of deceased same as parents
- Siblings their only chance to inherit is when the deceased does not have children.
- The kelala is someone who does not have children nor parents. Shares for their siblings are explained in case they have spouse or not.
- If any of the above heirs exist alone, they take all the inheritance, since no other relatives are mentioned as eligible.
- Therefore, if children are/is of same sex and are alone, they take all they inheritance, divided eaually.
If you disagree with any of the above points, please ask me for evidence.
Only then can one speak of a formula. -
Salaam Samia,
411 deceased is not kelala (has a mother)
4176 deceased is a kelala does not have a mother.So far I do not know how you understand a kelala, although I asked you before. Maybe that's why you are complicating the issue.
In a nutshell
The heirs as mentioned in the qur'aan are- Children. These are the highest level of heirs they always inherit, and only parents and spouse of deceased may share with them. Siblings of deceased are curtailed by them.
- Parents of deceased they also always inherit, but can share with spouses, children and siblings of the deceased.
- Spouses of deceased same as parents
- Siblings their only chance to inherit is when the deceased does not have children.
- The kelala is someone who does not have children nor parents. Shares for their siblings are explained in case they have spouse or not.
- If any of the above heirs exist alone, they take all the inheritance, since no other relatives are mentioned as eligible.
- Therefore, if children are/is of same sex and are alone, they take all they inheritance, divided eaually.
If you disagree with any of the above points, please ask me for evidence.
Only then can one speak of a formula.OK we'll do two examples to make it simple
Ex wife, mother, 2 sisters, brother
Ex husband, father, mother, sister, brotherTherefore the deceased in either case is NOT Kalala according to Samia/Shahrour;
thus these verses are NOT applicable because they are ONLY applicable when the deceased IS a Kalala412...and if was a man to be inherited kalalatan or a woman, and for him a brother, or a sister, so for each one from them the sixth, so if they were more than that, so they are partners in the third
4176 They ask your clarification, say "God decrees in alkalalati, if (a) human died, not for him a child, and for him a sister, so for her half what he left, and he inherits her if was not for her a child, and if they were two, so to them the two thirds from what he left, and if they were brethren men and women, so to the male equal fortune the two females, God clarifies for you that you (not) be misguided, and God is with every thing knowledgeable.
Now please solve the two cases using
411...and to his PARENTS, to each one from them the 1/6 from what he left, if for him was a child, {not applicable}
so if was not for him a child, and his parents inherited him, so to his mother the 1/3, {not applicable }
so if brethren were for him, so to his mother the 1/6Ex wife, mother, 2 sisters, brother
1/4 wife, 1/6 mother -- what do we give 2 sisters and brother?Ex husband, mother, father, sister, brother
1/2 husband, 1/6 mother -- what do we give the father, sister, and brother?Where are the instructions? Also have to ensure there is no shortage or surplus.
Peace
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Ex wife, mother, 2 sisters, brother
1/4 wife, 1/6 mother -- what do we give 2 sisters and brother?Ex husband, mother, father, sister, brother
1/2 husband, 1/6 mother -- what do we give the father, sister, and brother?Where are the instructions? Also have to ensure there is no shortage or surplus.
Peace
Thanks for pointing out what I missed!
8 Siblings only inherit with the presence of either the parents or the spouse, but not both (i,e parents and spouse).
411if no children, and the parents are the (only) heirs, the mother has a third; if the deceased left brothers (or sisters) the mother has a sixth.
We do not have a case where parents and spouse are present but no children. Verses 411 and 12 only discuss the share of the parents (11) and the spouse (12) in absence and presence of children, presuming spouses or parents still exist. If it's the share of the parent that is discussed in the absence of children, the rest of the inhertance automatically goes to the spouse; and if it's the share of the spouse that's mentioned, the rst of the inheritance goes automatically to the parent. Presence of both parents and spouse curtails the siblings, just like the presence of children alone curtails them.
From verse 411 up o this part of verse 412 (
In what your wives leave, your share is a half, if they leave no child; but if they leave a child, ye get a fourth; after payment of legacies and debts. In what ye leave, their share is a fourth, if ye leave no child; but if ye leave a child, they get an eighth; after payment of legacies and debts), the deceased is presumed to have parents and spouse, and the share of either of them is decided depending on the presence or absence of children, whereas the share of the others is not, so the rest of the heritage goes to the one whose share is not fixed.
The remainder of verse 412, together with verse 4176, discusses the case of the kelala. You do not finde in them any mention of presence or absence of parents or of children, but only spouse and/ or siblings.According to this, in these cases you mention, where both the parents and the spouse are there, siblings inherit nothing.
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Thanks for pointing out what I missed!
8 Siblings only inherit with the presence of either the parents or the spouse, but not both (i,e parents and spouse).
411if no children, and the parents are the (only) heirs, the mother has a third; if the deceased left brothers (or sisters) the mother has a sixth.
According to this, in these cases you mention, where both the parents and the spouse are there, siblings inherit nothing.
OK you are almost there seeing that Kalala is also spouseless...
...according to Qur'an because when there is a spouse siblings get NOTHING!
Let's take out the spouse so we ONLY have parents and siblings.
Therefore, deceased in either case is NOT Kalala according to Samia/Shahrour;
thus these verses are NOT applicable because they are ONLY applicable when the deceased IS a Kalala412...and if was a man to be inherited kalalatan or a woman, and for him a brother, or a sister, so for each one from them the sixth, so if they were more than that, so they are partners in the third
4176 They ask your clarification, say "God decrees in alkalalati, if (a) human died, not for him a child, and for him a sister, so for her half what he left, and he inherits her if was not for her a child, and if they were two, so to them the two thirds from what he left, and if they were brethren men and women, so to the male equal fortune the two females, God clarifies for you that you (not) be misguided, and God is with every thing knowledgeable.
Now please solve using
411...and to his PARENTS, to each one from them the 1/6 from what he left, if for him was a child, {not applicable}
so if was not for him a child, and his parents inherited him, so to his mother the 1/3, {not applicable }
so if brethren were for him, so to his mother the 1/6Ex mother, 2 sisters, brother
1/6 mother -- what do we give 2 sisters and brother?Ex mother, father, sister, brother
1/6 mother -- what do we give the father, sister, and brother?Where are instructions for distributing shares to 3 unknown variables and amongst different mix of siblings?
Peace
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OK you are almost there seeing that Kalala is also spouseless...
How do you enfer from this that kalala is spousless? What I said is very clear. Siblings inherit only when at most either the spouse or a parent is there. If both are present, they inherit nothing. They will therefore always inherit a kalala because a kalala has at most just a spouse (no parents and no children).
Ex mother, 2 sisters, brother
1/6 mother -- what do we give 2 sisters and brother?Ex mother, father, sister, brother
1/6 mother -- what do we give the father, sister, and brother?Ex 1 Since we have the share of the parent/s fixed, the rest of the inharetnce goes automatically to the rest of the heirs; in this case we apply to the male the share of the two females;
Ex1 Both parents are present. No children each parent gets 1/6; and the rest goes to the sister and brother, equally shared. -
Salaam Samia,
How do you enfer from this that kalala is spousless? What I said is very clear. Siblings inherit only when at most either the spouse or a parent is there. If both are present, they inherit nothing. They will therefore always inherit a kalala because a kalala has at most just a spouse (no parents and no children).
Only have a little time -- see below...
Ex 1 Since we have the share of the parent/s fixed, the rest of the inharetnce goes automatically to the rest of the heirs; in this case we apply to the male the share of the two females;
Ex1 Both parents are present. No children each parent gets 1/6; and the rest goes to the sister and brother, equally shared.
Read Qur'an -- both parents shares are fixed ONLY when there are children. No child father share variable.
411...and to his PARENTS, to each one from them the 1/6 from what he left, if for him was a child, {not applicable}
so if was not for him a child, and his parents inherited him, so to his mother the 1/3, {if only parents, not applicable}
so if brethren were for him, so to his mother the 1/6Please redo...
Ex mother, 2 sisters, brother
1/6 mother -- what do we give 2 sisters and brother?Ex mother, father, sister, brother
1/6 mother -- what do we give the father, sister, and brother?Where are instructions for distributing shares to 3 unknown variables and amongst different mix of siblings?
Also, you stated dividing siblings share for case of Kalala (the male the share of the two females, etc).
When God says Kalala, why do you apply it to a deceased who according to you is NOT Kalala?
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Read Qur'an -- both parents shares are fixed ONLY when there are children. No child father share variable.
411...and to his PARENTS, to each one from them the 1/6 from what he left, if for him was a child, {not applicable}
so if was not for him a child, and his parents inherited him, so to his mother the 1/3, {if only parents, not applicable}
so if brethren were for him, so to his mother the 1/6Salaam Eid
I would rephrase this Both parents shares are not equal when there are no children (mother 1/3 father 2/3 for absence of any legitimate heir/s); and are equal when there are other heirs children or siblings.
The inheritance verses show the female's share, the male will either be equal to that share or will take the rest of the inheritance if not specified.x mother, 2 sisters, brother
1/6 mother -- what do we give 2 sisters and brother
2 sisters get 50% of what remains and brother 50% (equal shares between the 2 females and the one male); i.e 50% of 5/6 for the two sisters and 50% of the 5/6 for the brotherEx mother, father, sister, brother
1/6 mother -- what do we give the father, sister, and brother?The onlly case where the mother gets 1/6 the father also gets 1/6 (in presence of children = legitimate heirs)
Same principle would be applied here
mother 1/6; father 1/6; sister and brother each gets 1/3 -
Salaam Eid
I would rephrase this Both parents shares are not equal when there are no children (mother 1/3 father 2/3 for absence of any legitimate heir/s); and are equal when there are other heirs children or siblings.
The inheritance verses show the female's share, the male will either be equal to that share or will take the rest of the inheritance if not specified.x mother, 2 sisters, brother
1/6 mother -- what do we give 2 sisters and brother
2 sisters get 50% of what remains and brother 50% (equal shares between the 2 females and the one male); i.e 50% of 5/6 for the two sisters and 50% of the 5/6 for the brotherEx mother, father, sister, brother
1/6 mother -- what do we give the father, sister, and brother?The onlly case where the mother gets 1/6 the father also gets 1/6 (in presence of children = legitimate heirs)
Same principle would be applied here
mother 1/6; father 1/6; sister and brother each gets 1/3Peace Samia,
Yes, both parents get 1/6 ONLY in the presence of children. There are no children and deceased is NOT Kalala according to you in the cases stated above. Therefore, you cannot use distributions 412 and 4176 which are specific when the deceased is ONLY Kalala.
The distrbutions are all there.
Ex mother, father
411...and to his PARENTS, to each one from them the 1/6 from what he left, if for him was a child, {not applicable}
so if was not for him a child, and his parents inherited him, so to his mother the 1/3,
so if brethren were for him, so to his mother the 1/6 {not applicable }If no children and only parents alive, mother?s share is fixed at 1/3
1 ? 1/3 mother = 2/3 fatherIf no father and brethren (ikhwatun) mother?s share is fixed at 1/6
Ex husband, parents
1 ? 1/2 husband = 1/2 parents (1/6 mother + 1/3 father)Ex wife, parents
1 ? 1/4 wife = 3/4 parents (1/4 mother + 1/2 father)Note If the deceased wants to leave a greater share to a surviving spouse or anyone they should specify it in a will.
Kalala - no spouse and no father (a widower for example) with Child
412...and if was a man to be inherited kalalatan or a woman, and for him a brother, or a sister, so for each one from them the sixth, so if they were more than that, so they are partners in the third
If father or spouse siblings get NOTHING! They are not even mentioned until Kalala!
Siblings ONLY inherit when the deceased is kalala and mother?s share is specified when there are brethren (411) thus siblings and/or mother can be inheritors for Kalala not when there is a father.
Finally, the case if deceased is Kalala (no spouse, no father) no Child
4176
(� They ask your clarification, say "God decrees in alkalalati, if (a) human died, not for him a child, and for him a sister, so for her half what he left, and he inherits her if was not for her a child, and if they were two, so to them the two thirds from what he left, and if they were brethren men and women, so to the male equal fortune the two females, God clarifies for you that you (not) be misguided, and God is with every thing knowledgeable.
Ex mother, 2 sisters, brother {Kalala no child use 4176}
1/6 mother = 5/6 siblings (i.e. to the male equal share the two females)http//www.mathcracker.com/piechartimage.php?data=3,%205,%205,%2010&cat=mother,%20sister%201,%20sister%202,%20brother
Ex mother, father, sister, brother {not Kalala use 411 parents are only inheritors}
...so if was not for him a child, and his parents inherited him, so to his mother the 1/31 - 1/3 mother = 2/3 father {siblings get nothing}
http//www.mathcracker.com/piechartimage.php?data=1,%202&cat=mother,%20father
Peace
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Therefore, you cannot use distributions 412 and 4176 which are specific when the deceased is ONLY Kalala.
Salaam Eid
Your examples are not kelala. There is a mother in one example and parents in the other. I only used 411 where the deceased is not kelalal. has no children but parents and brethrens
Since brethren are mentioned, it means they are heirs in this case.
This verse mentions the share of parents in three cases
1- Presence of children
2- Absence of children - parents alone
3-Absence of children -presence of brethrenso if brethren were for him, so to his mother the 1/6 {not applicable }
Why not applicable?! This is the applicable one!
If no father and brethren (ikhwatun) mother?s share is fixed at 1/6
No verse says if there's no father; not mentioning him nor saying explicitly he is dead does not rule out his presence, just as no verse says no male children.
Kalala - no spouse and no father (a widower for example) with Child
Is this your definition of kelala? Kelala does not have children nor parents
I think you should get your definition of kelala specified.
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Salaam Samia,
Your examples are not kelala. There is a mother in one example and parents in the other. I only used 411 where the deceased is not kelalal. has no children but parents and brethrens
Since brethren are mentioned, it means they are heirs in this case.
This verse mentions the share of parents in three cases
1- Presence of children
2- Absence of children - parents alone
3-Absence of children -presence of brethrenAgain to repeat at issue is this
You used distributions given in 412 and 4176 to divide shares to the siblings.
It is clear 412 and 4176 is ONLY if the deceased was a Kalala...412 Wa 'In Kna Rajulun Yrathu Kallatan 'Aw Amra'atun
4176 Yastaftnaka Quli Allhu Yuftkum F Al-KallatiIn the two examples given with a mother according to your definition were NOT Kalala.
Why use 412 & 4176 to distribute shares to the siblings when they are inapplicable?Missed this in the last post
Ex mother, father, sister, brother
1/6 mother -- what do we give the father, sister, and brother?The onlly case where the mother gets 1/6 the father also gets 1/6 (in presence of children = legitimate heirs)
Same principle would be applied here
mother 1/6; father 1/6; sister and brother each gets 1/3OK then let?s do?
Ex mother, father, sister
How much does the sister get 2/3, 1/6, 1/2?Ex parents, brother
Likewise, how much does the brother get?Ex parents, 1 sister, 2 brothers
Ex parents, 3 sisters, 1 brotherWhere are the instructions for distributions?
Why not applicable?! This is the applicable one!
Please read the example case that was given...
Ex mother, father
411...and to his PARENTS, to each one from them the 1/6 from what he left, if for him was a child, {not applicable}
so if was not for him a child, and his parents inherited him, so to his mother the 1/3,
so if brethren were for him, so to his mother the 1/6 {not applicable }If no children and only parents alive, mother?s share is fixed at 1/3
1 ? 1/3 mother = 2/3 fatherNo verse says if there's no father; not mentioning him nor saying explicitly he is dead does not rule out his presence, just as no verse says no male children.
Of course father's share is explicitely stated only when there is a child else calculated.
411...and to his PARENTS, to each one from them the 1/6 from what he left, if for him was a child,
so if was not for him a child, and his parents inherited him, so to his mother the 1/3
so if brethren were for him, so to his mother the 1/6Therefore, using reason/logic the following is deduced
IF children THEN parents get 1/6
IF parents only inheritors THEN mother gets 1/3 {father gets 2/3}
IF brethren {no father} mother gets 1/6 {fixed}IF no child, no father, no brethren THEN mother share is variable {i.e. unspecified to be calculated}
Is this your definition of kelala? Kelala does not have children nor parents
NO.
I think you should get your definition of kelala specified.
Kalala - No father, No spouse (could be widower, divorced, single, never married, with/without child).
IF Kalala with Child use...
412...and if was a man to be inherited Kallatan or a womanIF Kalala without Child use...
4176 They ask your clarification, say "God decrees in Al-Kallati, if (a) human died, not for him a childThe above is key to understanding; NOT FOR HIM A CHILD!
If Kalala means without Child, no need to state the case for NO CHILD!
The classical definition of Kalala as no parents and childless is in error purely derived from conjecture and vague hadith which later the writers of dictionaries referenced as well...
Abu Talha reported 'Umar b. al-Khattab (Allah be pleased with him) delivered a sermon on Friday and made a mention of Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and he also made a mention of Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) and then said I do not leave behind me any problem more difficult than that of Kalala. I did not refer to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) more repeatedly than in case of the problem of Kalala, and he (the Holy Prophet) never showed more annoyance to me than in regard to this problem, so much so that he struck my chest with his fingers and said 'Umar, does the verse revealed in summer season, at the end of Sura al-Nisa' not suffice you? Hadrat 'Umar (then) said If I live I would give such verdict about (Kalala) that everyone would be able to decide whether he reads the Qur'an or he does not.
In addition, for those who believe Order of Revelation based on hadith the last chapter was 110 ...
Al-Bara' (Allah be pleased with him) reported that the last verse revealed in the Holy Qur'an is" They ask thee for a religious verdict; say Allah gives you a religious verdict about Kalala (the person who has neither parents nor children)" (iv 177).
4176
... God clarifies for you that you be (not) misguided and God with all things knowledgeable.
Peace