Who was Zul-Qarnain?
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Yes many traditional muslims do believe this, however, I have seen some new posts on certain forums which have led me to believe that they are changing their opinion in order to accept that it is indeed Kurosh bozurg (Cyrus) who has been spoken of as Zu-al-Qarnain.
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Peace,
There was a discussion on this forum sometime back that showed it was Alexandar (someone posted a picture of an ancient coin which showed alexandar dressed in a headgear that had two horns on its top). Also, there was a discussion about the link between the
iron damthat Alexandar supposedly built on the Danube and theiron damof the Quran. -
Peace,
There was a discussion on this forum sometime back that showed it was Alexandar (someone posted a picture of an ancient coin which showed alexandar dressed in a headgear that had two horns on its top). Also, there was a discussion about the link between the
iron damthat Alexandar supposedly built on the Danube and theiron damof the Quran.I posted on this and Alexander was neither pagan nor bisexual which we have to be careful of history for the same can be said that Muhammad in Quran cannot be the Muhammad described in most of the hadith literature. We need to sort through contradictions and see that words below can only be spoken by a Muslim...
?Horrible man, have you known me up to now guilty of such crimes? How dare you flatter me with such vile pleasures?? -- Alexander in response to his commander Philoxenus who wrote about a handsome boy and if he wanted he could send the youth to him.
When taking young woman captive after raiding a city, he would protect them from his troops, and treat them as if they were his daughters. Often, when addressing older queens, Alexander would refer to them as 'mother', showing his respect to them as if being a part of his close family.
Alexander?s speech at Opis in 324 BC summarized as follows
? Now that the wars are over, I wish you to find happiness through peace.
? May all mortals live from now on in harmony, as one nation, for the sake of common prosperity.
? Consider the world as your country, with common laws, governed by men of merit, regardless of race.
? I do not separate people, as many narrow-minded others do, into Hellenes and barbarians. I am not interested in the origin or race of citizens, I only distinguish them on the basis of their virtue. For me, each foreigner is a Hellene, and each bad Hellene is a barbarian.
? If you are ever faced with differences, do not resort to arms, but resolve them peacefully. If need be, I can act as your arbitrator.
? God should not be viewed as an authoritarian ruler, but as our common father.
? As for myself, I consider all persons, black or white, as equals.
? I wish you to be my partners and not just members of our commonwealth.
? As far as I am able, I shall see to it that all my promises come true.
When the Jews of Jerusalem offered Alexander gold and silver, he refused to accept them; the Jewish high priest told Alexander "We serve only one God who created Heaven and Earth and all visible and invisible things that no human being is able to explain." To this Alexander replied, "As worthy worshippers of the true God, be in peace, for your God is my God and my peace is your peace. I shall not treat you any different from the other nations, since you serve the living God."
So he followed a way. Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of black muddy water. And he found near it a people. We said "O Dhul-Qarnain! Either you punish them, or treat them with kindness." (Qur'an 1885-86)
http//www.livius.org/a/1/alexander/alexander_horns_coin.jpg
?Dhul-Qarnain? or ?Two-Horns? and sunset in black muddy water most probably refers to area around Black Drin and Lake Shkodra/Scutari (i.e. Skenderiye/Alexandria) in modern Albania which historians write the Illyrian chieftain Kleitus sacrificed 3 boys, 3 girls, and 3 rams before a battle in which he was defeated by Alexander.
Peace
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Thanks num de plume for a very entlightening reading about Alexander. I have read conflicting things about him, but what you write matches what the Quran says. On the other hand, it doesn't seem that there was a lot of resistance to him in the shor time he conquered and even later, which might indicate that he did indeed let people live in peace.
Salaam
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There's discussion on this on another thread.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8376.0Zul-Qarnayn, the one with two horns, is most definitely CYRUS a.k.a Koresh a.k.a Kurush
He introduce the concept of "secular country".
He applied 'secular principle' on his vast kingdom.
And authored of one of the oldest surviving manuscript of "declaration of human rights".Cyrus are also being titled as "Mossiach" / "Christ" / "God's Choosen One" in the Old Testament Bible.
Together with Zarathustra, they bear many resemblance / similarities with figures of Jesus and John, the (rejected) Jewish Mossiach.Salam
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Peace Nun de plume
Alexander?s speech at Opis in 324 BC summarized as follows
With all due respect, every word of this speech is nothing but pure hearsay. No different than the 3-page- long "speeches" of the Prophet Muhamad found in Bukhary's collection of fabrications and al-Tabary's 13 volumes of hearsay.
Ask yourself who recorded this speech? How was it transmitted? By Alexander's "historians"?
Can these "his-story-ans" be trusted? Do you have archival evidence of this "speech"?Any history which is not supported by pure physical evidence, or archeological proof must be dismissed as hearsy.
Past events always teach us that "history" is written by the victor. It's purpose is to make an angel out of the latter, while demonizing the loser. Why is there so much "historic" records of German war crimes in WW2, and almost none mentioning the monstrous attrocities perpetrated by the Soviets?
There is absolutely zero evidence that Alexander had any close relation with the Jews.
I have seen coins unearthed in Northern Africa depicting Alexander's visage with the words "son of Zeus" etched above it. Can this son of the Greek mythical "god", who was later declared Pharaoh of Egypt and who heralded the oppressive Ptolemic dynasty (one tyrant dethroning another, to the glory of the Son of Zeus) be the just monotheist that your "speech" claims him to be?The "Iron Wall of Alexander" is nothing but a legend.
But the area, in modern day Republic of Georgia, known in the local language as "Kapan Ghorash" is FACT.
The Cylinder of Cyrus, which was the first ever declaration of human rights (2,500 years before the United Nations charter) can still be seen and physically touched, in a museum somewhere in England.
This is FACT.The word "Qarn" (singular) "Qarnayn" (dual) or "Quroon" (plural) which appears a dozen times in the Great Reading does NOT mean "horns". By doing tasreef, and gathering all the verses in which this word appears, we find that it more appropriately means "nations" or "peoples".
Here are a few examples
{Did they not see how many "quroon" (peoples/nations) We have destroyed before them? We granted them dominance over the land more than what We granted you, and We sent to them abundant rainfall, and We made rivers flow beneath them; then We destroyed them for their sins, and established after them a new "qarn" (nation /people)}
{Then We established after them (Noah's people) another "qarn" (nation)
And We sent a messenger to them from amongst them "Serve God, you have no other god besides Him. Will you not heed?" } .{Is it not a guide to them how many "quroon" (nations/peoples) We had destroyed before them; and that they now walk in their very homes? In that are signs for those who understand.}
Did God destroy the past nations, or the past horns?
The kings of the Achamenid dynasty of ancient Persia were actually holders of a dual throne. Cyrus ( or "Kurush" ), was originally, the King of the Persians as well as the Medes. He was king of two distinct nations, each having a culture quite different from the other (hence the title "Zhulqarnayn"
The vision of the ram with two horns mentioned in the book of Daniel is in fact a symbolic representation of Cyrus (580 BC - 529 BC ), the liberator of the Jews. ( To this day, many Jews still rever him ).
It's interesting to note that the verses of the subject matter, in the chapter 18 of the Great Reading entitled "al-Kahf", begin with the phrase "And they ask you (o, messenger) about Zhulkqarnayn....."
If we understand "they" in the verse as meaning the people of the Book (Jews particularly), we can conclude 2 things
1- That Zhulqarnayn was known to the Jews, and was mentioned in their scriptures.
2- The question they were asking the prophet who received the Great Reading by divine inspiration was a sort of test to see what he knew about Zhulqarnayn. Therefore, the answer given by the prophet would have to contain proof of his prophecy. This proof would have to be in the form of some information about Zhulqarnayn that even they -the Jews- didn't know; information that would be validated by archeological discoveriesThis understanding of the verses in question rules out the theory that Zhulqarnayn was Alexander the Great , and this for a simple reason Alexander is NOT mentioned anywhere in the old Jewish scriptures, and I have yet to find any evidence that he had any close ties or relations with the Jews.
There is no doubt in my mind, that the "Zhulqarnayn" of the Quran is none other than Cyrus, a prophet/king of the Persians and Medes, and establisher of the first true empire recorded in history. Archeological findings can confirm this.
As for the location of the rampart that he built, it is located in the heart of the Caucasius mountains range (in present day Republic of Georgia).
If we examine a map of the Achamenid expansion, we will see that the boundaries of the first Persian Empire stretched from the western coasts of Turkey, all the way to the boundaries of India to the east. The Caucasius mountains, which form a natural barrier extending from the Black Sea to the Caspian Sea, marked the northernmost border of Cyrus's empire. Even today, we can still see ancient Achamenid ruins of military nature (fortresses and ramparts) scattered all over the region. The "wall" described in the Koran is not really unique. It is just one of several such structures built to block the Darial Pass (a natural mountain pass which constituted an opening to the barbarian lands north of the Caucasius). In fact, the name of Darial Pass in the local language of the Republic of Georgia (Armenian, if I'm not mistaken?), is "Kapan Ghorash"Kapan = "door" or "gate"
Ghorash = a pervesion of the name "Kurosh" (Cyrus).Hope that helped..
Peace...
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Peace Pazuzu,
1884 We have highly positioned/strengthened for him in the earth...
Cyrus was killed and behead supposedly in a battle while leading an expedition.
There is absolutely zero evidence that Alexander had any close relation with the Jews.
Flavius Josephus on Jewish view 500 years before Quran and likely case during revelation ?
The Jews also did all together, with one voice, salute Alexander, and encompass him about; whereupon the kings of Syria and the rest were surprised at what Alexander had done, and supposed him disordered in his mind. However, Parmenion alone went up to him, and asked him how it came to pass that, when all others adored him, he should adore the high-priest of the Jews? To whom he replied, 'I did not adore him, but that God who has honored him with his highpriesthood; for I saw this very person in a dream, in this very habit, when I was at Dion in Macedonia, who, when I was considering with myself how I might obtain the dominion of Asia, exhorted me to make no delay, but boldly to pass over the sea thither, for that he would conduct my army, and would give me the dominion over the Persians; whence it is that, having seen no other in that habit, and now seeing this person in it, and remembering that vision, and the exhortation which I had in my dream, I believe that I bring this army under the Divine conduct, and shall therewith conquer Darius, and destroy the power of the Persians, and that all things will succeed according to what is in my own mind.'
D?j? vu dreams is something that I have experienced on numerous occasions and believe in.
I have seen coins unearthed in Northern Africa depicting Alexander's visage with the words "son of Zeus" etched above it. Can this son of the Greek mythical "god", who was later declared Pharaoh of Egypt and who heralded the oppressive Ptolemic dynasty (one tyrant dethroning another, to the glory of the Son of Zeus) be the just monotheist that your "speech" claims him to be?
Who knows, he was on a non-stop campaign probably too busy to focus on minting...
http//mysite.verizon.net/vzeqg1oh/collectn/00001-o.jpg
MACEDON, Alexander the Great, Tetradrachm, after 323 B.C.E.
Struck at the Carrhae mint, after Alexander's death.Difficult to change the monetary standard even during early years of Islam...
http//www.grifterrec.com/coins/islam/arab_sas/i_asas_yazdIII_o2.jpg
Yazdgard III year 20=651 CE
The Cylinder of Cyrus, which was the first ever declaration of human rights (2,500 years before the United Nations charter) can still be seen and physically touched, in a museum somewhere in England.
This is FACT.Let's read it then...
http//www.livius.org/ct-cz/cyrus_I/cyrus_cylinder2.html...the kings of the West, who dwell in tents, all of them, brought their heavy tribute before me and in Babylon they kissed my feet. From to A??ur and (from) Susa, Agade, E?nunna, Zamban, Me-Turnu, Der, as far as the region of Gutium, the sacred centers on the other side of the Tigris, whose sanctuaries had been abandoned for a long time, I returned the images of the gods, who had resided there , to their places and I let them dwell in eternal abodes. I gathered all their inhabitants and returned to them their dwellings. In addition, at the command of Marduk, the great lord, I settled in their habitations, in pleasing abodes, the gods of Sumer and Akkad, whom Nabonidus, to the anger of the lord of the gods, had brought into Babylon....
May all the gods whom I settled in their sacred centers ask daily of B?l and N?bu that my days be long and may they intercede for my welfare. May they say to Marduk, my lord "As for Cyrus, the king who reveres you, and Cambyses, his son,."
You're right the above is in FACT incriminating evidence.
Peace
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Alexander was a lecherous pagan brute who had no respect for cultures or freedom of belief. He doesn't fit the image of a benevolent ruler.
I'm a big supporter of the Alexander theory and one of the big obstacles is the idea that he was a crazed pagan conquerer. The biggest hold-outs among Muslims are Persians because Persia remembers Alexander the same way the Jews remember Mohammed... in a not so positive way. But there's two problems here... the Quran never says Zhulqarnayn was a nice guy. And only Alexander is credited for the gate of Gog and Magog by all ancient sources.
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Peace,
By the way the Jewish point of view has to be taken into consideration here. They were having the scriptural library, so they will know who he is and if they tell without prejudice, in truth and justice it will solve the problem. God knows best!
Godbless!
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Peace,
By the way the Jewish point of view has to be taken into consideration here. They were having the scriptural library, so they will know who he is and if they tell without prejudice, in truth and justice it will solve the problem. God knows best!
Godbless!
Hebrew Bible
The first occurrence of "Magog" in the Hebrew Bible is in the Table of Nations in Genesis 10, where Magog is the eponymous ancestor of a people or nation (without any accompanying apocalyptic symbolism, or mention of Gog, although "Magog" may mean "the land of Gog"
- The sons of Japheth were Gomer, Magog, Madai, Javan, Tubal, Meshech, and Tiras
- The sons of Gomer were Ashkenaz, Riphath, and Togarmah.
In this occurrence, Magog is clearly the name of a person, although in the anthropology proposed by Genesis, ethnic groups and nations are founded by, and usually named after, their founding ancestors. The names of Gomer, Tubal, Meshech, and Togarmah also occur in Ezekiel.
The earliest known reference to "Gog" and "Magog" together is also in the Bible, in the Book of Ezekiel
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Son of man, set thy face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,
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And you shall say; So said the Lord God Behold, I am against you, Gog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal.
Although it is clear (in the Hebrew) that here Magog is a "land" (eretz) from verse 2, and that Gog is a "prince" from verse 3, different identifications have been made. These are discussed after the text itself. The Interlinear Bible (Hebrew - Greek - English) states 2. as "Son of man, set your face toward Gog, the land of Magog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal; and prophesy concerning him." -
Thus says the Lord "On that day it shall come to pass that thoughts will arise in your mind and you will make an evil plan"
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You will say, "I will go against a land of unwalled villages?
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To take plunder and booty?"
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Sheba and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, will say to you, "have you come to take a spoil?"
We are told that Gog dwelt north of Israel, but there is little else to identify Gog in the passage. Gog and his allies are to attack "a land of unwalled villages" to collect booty, but before attacking Israel itself, will be reduced to a "sixth" of their size (Ezekiel 392). Their reduced army will be destroyed in Israel, their dead buried in the Valley of Hamon-Gog for all to see and comment on (3915-17).
Addressing Gog and Magog, God describes how the attacks will be repelled (Ezekiel 391-16). The army of Gog and Magog includes people from the nations of "Gomer, Tubal, Meshech, and the house of Togarmah from the North", all of whom are mentioned as descendants of Japheth in Genesis 10. God describes the aftermath of the battle later in the same chapter, addressing "thou, son of man"
- ?,thus says the Lord, "Speak to every bird and every beast of the field, 'Assemble yourselves and come,?'"
- "You shall eat the flesh of the mighty, drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams and lambs, of goats and bulls, all of them fatlings of Bashan"
Ezekiel (38 and 39) says that Gog will be defeated.
New Testament
"Gog and Magog" are first mentioned as a pair in the New Testament Book of Revelation, which draws on the depiction of them in the older prophetic works. They appear in verses 207-9 (United Bible Societies' Greek New Testament - 4th revised ed.)- And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
- And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
- And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. (KJV)
Here, Gog and Magog are identified as the nations in the four corners of the earth, and their attack is represented as an eschatological crisis after the Millennium, to be vanquished by divine intervention.
Although the language of Gog and Magog's destruction is very similar to that of their mention in Ezekiel, premillennialist Christians believe that Ezekiel's prophecy and the description found in the Book of Revelation refer to two distinct eschatological events. According to this belief, the war described by Ezekiel occurs before the millennium (probably as an opening act of the apocalyptic era), while the event described in the Book of Revelation occurs at the end of the millennium era (as an event that directly leads to the closing of the millennium era).
Qur'an
lGog and Magog appear in Qur'an sura Al-Kahf (The Cave chapter), 1883-98, as Yajuj and Majuj (Ya'jj and Ma'jj or , in Arabic). Some Muslim scholars contend that the Gog in Ezekiel verse 382 should be read Yajuj (there is a maqaph (ף or hyphen immediately before Gog in the Hebrew version which in some printings looks like the Hebrew letter "yod" or "Y"). The verses state that Dhul-Qarnayn (the one with two horns) travelled the world in three directions, until he found a tribe threatened by Gog and Magog, who were of an "evil and destructive nature" and "caused great corruption on earth." The people offered tribute in exchange for protection. Dhul-Qarnayn agreed to help them, but refused the tribute; he constructed a great wall that the hostile nations were unable to penetrate. They will be trapped there until doomsday, and their escape will be a sign of the end
? But when Gog and Magog are let loose and they rush headlong down every height (or advantage). Then will the True Promise draw near - (Qur'an 2196-97) ?
The Qur'anic account of Dhul-Qarnayn follows very closely the "Gates of Alexander" story from the Alexander romance, a thoroughly embellished compilation of Alexander the Great's wars and adventures (see below). Since the construction of a great iron gate to hold back a hostile northern people was attributed to Alexander many centuries before the time of Islamic Prophet Muhammad and the recording of the Qur'an, most historians consider Dhul-Qarnayn a reference to Alexander (see Alexander the Great in the Qur'an). However, some Muslim scholars reject this attribution, associating Dhul-Qarnayn with some other early ruler, usually Cyrus the Great, but also Darius the Great. Gog and Magog are also mentioned in some of the hadith, or sayings of Muhammad, specifically the Sahih al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, revered by Muslims.
Fourteenth century Muslim sojourner Ibn Battuta traveled to China on order of the Sultan of Delhi, Muhammad bin Tughluq, and encountered a large community of Muslim merchants in the city of Zaitun. He comments in his travel log that "Between it and the rampart of Yajuj and Majuj is sixty days' travel." The translator of the travel log notes that Ibn Battuta confused the Great Wall of China with that supposedly built by Dhul-Qarnayn.
Identifications
In Jewish traditions
In terms of extra-biblical Jewish tradition, Gog the "prince" has been explained by Rashi, Radak and others as being the King of the nation of Magog, descended from the son Magog of Japthet, the son of Noah. No particular nation is associated with them, nor is any particular territory beyond them being in the north of Israel. Some Biblical scholars believe that Gyges (Ancient Greek ς, king of Lydia (687 BC-652 BC), is meant. In Assyrian letters, Gyges appears as Gu-gu, in which case Magog might be his territory in Anatolia; for in Assyrian, mt Gu-gu would be the normal way of designating 'the land of Gugu'.In his book Antiquities of the Jews, the Jewish historian and scholar Josephus identifies Magog with the Scythians, but this name seems to have been used generically in antiquity for a number of peoples north of the Black Sea.
The Jewish Talmud and Midrashim also deal with Magog's location, and use the names Gytia (א and Germania (א, identified by later Jewish scholars as Kermania and Sattagydia, currently located in eastern Iran and Balochistan, which is also called Sakastan, meaning "home of the Scythians" (which were named by Josephus as Magogites).
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gog_and_Magog
It looks like an end time thing.
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From all the data available on this controversial topic I find the explanation
by the sufi scholar Imran Hosein to be the most accurate.
You can check it out at http//www.imranhosein.org/books/131-an-islamic-view-of-gog-and-magog-in-the-modern-age.html
Its a free e-book at his website about the topic of Gog & Magog.
So relax and enjoy the book. Let me know what you think? -
From all the data available on this controversial topic I find the explanation
by the sufi scholar Imran Hosein to be the most accurate.
You can check it out at http//www.imranhosein.org/books/131-an-islamic-view-of-gog-and-magog-in-the-modern-age.html
Its a free e-book at his website about the topic of Gog & Magog.
So relax and enjoy the book. Let me know what you think?I'm assuming the argument is that the Jews are Gog and Magog? I'm afraid Christian fundamentalists already beat him to it. Everyone points fingers at everyone else.
Oops, I finished glancing over the pdf -- Christians as well as Jews are Gog and Magog. Lovely. You realize Christians and Jews feel the same way about each other as well as Muslims?
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There is a lot of controversial history about Alexander the great. And like Nun De Plume mentioned, the bad things could very well be Hadith. Allah knows best. But contrary to popular belief. Alexander was not a nationalist, or a pagan. As certain historical documents mention him believing in one God. For all we know Zeus was a name used for God. we have to understand what is known as paganism today, was a bastardization of a truth that once exists. For instance in Greek legend they speek of the Flood of Noah, and that Zeus told him to build an ark. For all we know zeus was the name of God by the ancient Greeks, and then graven images were made, sons daughters ascribes to him. Much of the greek Gods have their origin in sumeria which can easily be linked to biblical kings, angels, and God. Allah knows best. But Alexander was considered very just. Also was considered some of the most inteligent of all of his people. he was a military war hero and tactician since a child. his first battle victory was at 13 I believe, and He was concerned more with being educated than fighting like the others. And while his people were to busy being tribal moron, He united all the tribes, forged an empire, in his early 20's. He was merciful to many of the people he conquered. Persia for instance, it is said after conquering Persia he let the Queen and princesses remain and enjoy their life. He did not rape murder and pillage as is led to believe. He married women from amongst other nations. He was not concerned with tribalism and nationalism. He defied most odds of men in history. Allah knows best but I would consider that Allah showered many blessings on the man. He was definately ahead of his time. I cant find the link so if anyone has seen this maybe they can link me, but sopposedly these things were said by Alexander. Hardly something a pagan would do. Allah knows best as the truth of history. But as is known the wall built by Cyrus was already destroyed by the time of Muhammad pbuh, so than it would make no sense, as the Quranic ayat indicate the wall was not yet collapsed. God knows best.
Alexander the Great ? after conquering many kingdoms ? was returning home. On the way, he fell ill and he was bedridden for months. With death drawing close, Alexander realized how his conquests ? his great army ? his sharp sword and all his wealth were of no use to him now.
He called all his generals and said ? I will depart from the world soon. But I have three wishes. Please fulfill my wishes without fail. With tears flowing down their cheeks, the generals agreed to abide by their King?s last wishes
My First Desire is that ? said Alexander ? my Physicians alone must carry my coffin.
Secondly ? when my coffin is being carried to the grave ? the path leading to the graveyard should be strewn with gold, silver and precious stones which I have collected in my treasury.
My Third and Last wish is that both my hands should be kept dangling out of my coffin.
The people that had gathered there wondered at the King?s strange wishes. But no one dared to question;
Alexander?s favorite general kissed his hand and pressed them to his heart. O King ? we assure you that your wishes will all be fulfilled. But tell us why do you make such strange wishes?
At this Alexander took a deep breath and said ? I would like the World to know of Three Lessons I have just learnt.
I want my Physicians to carry my coffin because people should realize that no Doctor can really cure anybody. They are powerless and cannot save a person from the clutches of Death. So let not people take life for granted.
The Second Wish of strewing gold, silver and other riches on the way to the graveyard is to tell people that that not even a fraction of gold can be taken by me. Let people realize that it is a sheer waste of time to chase wealth.
And about my Third Wish of having my hands dangling out of the coffin ? I want people to know that I came empty handed into this world ? and empty handed I go out of this world.
Alexander?s last words ? Bury my body ? do not build any monument for me ? keep my hands outside so that the world knows the person who conquered the world had nothing in his hands when dying??
peace
