Hot/"ramadan" Answer
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Peace Ayman
Great work !
Just a few questions
1 When was the first dictionary of classical Arabic written ?
2What is the proof that the meaning which we are getting from them are the same as these were in pre-Quranic era ?
3What were the names of the months in the Pre -Quranic era what is the proof of their names or the Arabs were without days and months?
4How will you translate some english phrases into Arabica Present month
bLast monthI will appreciate if you spare some time to elaborate all these confusing points.
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Peace Q_student,
Thank you for your kind comments and questions. Many people contributed to this work through out the discussion and we wouldn?t have improved our understanding if it wasn?t for the god?s guidance.
1 When was the first dictionary of classical Arabic written ?
The first Classical Arabic dictionary is Lisan Al-3arab written by Ibn Al-Manzoor (1233-1311CE) who relied on Abu Mansur Al-Azhari (895-980CE).
2What is the proof that the meaning which we are getting from them are the same as these were in pre-Quranic era ?
There is no proof. In fact, quite the opposite, there is plenty of proof that Classical Arabic dictionaries are full of errors and misclassifications. This is why, like any tool, one needs to understand their limitations and biases and use them intelligently and not blindly. One way to use them is to figure out the etymology, which indicates the older meaning that the other meanings were derived from.
3What were the names of the months in the Pre -Quranic era what is the proof of their names or the Arabs were without days and months?
Calendars serve a function in society. In pre-Islamic times, the Arabs didn?t have their own calendar but used a variety of calendars depending on their needs. For example, for the nomads the purpose for using a calendar was to know the seasons, which dictate their movements in the wilderness to find grazing areas for their livestock. Therefore, their year was divided into 6 months Jamad Al-Awwal, Jamad Al-Thanni, Rabi Al-Awwal, Sayf, Qayz, Rabi Al-Thanni, Kharif. Please note that Rabi Al-Awwal (first grazing) occurred in early spring and Rabi Al-Thanni (second grazing) occurred in fall.
We actually have a lot of evidence about the names of the months that were used in Arabia. This is due to the fact that there are many inscriptions where the author mentions the date. However, there is no evidence of the so-called Islamic calendar. This indicates that the new Islamic calendar is an invention of the post-Quranic Islamic empire. Even traditions readily admit that the calendar was invented at the time of Umar I and so at the time of the prophet certainly a different calendar was used.
Note that some of the names of the Umar I months were taken from the calendar of the nomads and some appear to relate the Jewish calendar, for example Safar is related etymologically to Shofar or the blowing of the trumpet during the holidays in the Jewish month of Tishrei and Dhu al-Hijjah is related to the timing of the Jewish feast/?hagg?.
The inscriptions in Southern and Central Arabia show that the Arabs there used the Sabaean calendar, where the year began in April. Here are the names of the months in that calendar
http//i42.tinypic.com/29fxpqv.jpg
In northern Arabia, the city dwellers used calendars that allowed them to do business and organize their affairs. Cities that did business with the Romans used the calendar of the Romans and those that did business with the Persians used the calendar of the Persians, and the cities with large Jewish populations used the Jewish calendar.
Some Arabs followed the Byzantines in beginning the year in September, while the Arab Nestorians followed the Macedonian custom of beginning the year in October. Moreover, instead of borrowing the Latin names, the Arab Nestorian communities retained most of the month-names of the ancient Babylonian luni-solar calendar (also used, with some modification, as the religious calendar of the Jews), but they redefined these to make each one correspond to a Julian month. (See Encl. of Islam II, Tarikh)
The Arabs also used the calendar of the Persians and this continued into the Islamic era. The Persian calendar is functionally identical with that of the ancient Egyptians. It had a vague year of 365 days, divided between 12 months of 30 days each plus five extra days known as the five ?stolen? days.
4How will you translate some english phrases into Arabic
a Present month
b Last monthThere is no word for "month" in the great reading. The great reading is not concerned with manmade calendars but with universal cosmic phenomena that are independent of culture and calendars. Pre-quranic inscriptions often use the words "warkh" or "yarkh" (which doesn?t occur in the great reading) to mean "month". For example, see "yarkh" used in the inscription below
http//www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/raqush.html
Please note above the month name Tammuz.
Also, see "warkh" used in the inscription below
http//www.mnh.si.edu/EPIGRAPHY/e_pre-islamic/fig04_sabaean.htm
So ?present month? in pre-Islamic times would have been translated as ?h-al yarkh? and ?last month? would have been translated as something like ?al-yarkh al-mady?.
I will appreciate if you spare some time to elaborate all these confusing points.
One additional point to elaborate on is the meaning of the word ?nasi?a? in 937. As I mentioned in the first post on this thread there is no agreement on what the word ?nasi?a? in 937 means. A pre-Islamic South Arabian inscription from Haram (CIH 547) provides a clue for what this word could mean. Here the authors offer their excuses to their idol for that they had not performed a certain ritual in the required month, when war had forced them to flee their country, but ?postponed? (?nas?w?) it until another month. As a result of this impiety, their idol withheld the waters during the winter and summer growing seasons, whereupon the authors promised not to repeat their transgression in future (See Encl. of Islam II, Tarikh). It is quite clear from the context in the Haram inscription, that at least the verb nasa? has nothing to do with intercalation as is traditionally thought, but with the moving of a practice within the year itself. So the present so-called Islamic calendar has absolutely no basis.
I hope this helps.
Peace,
Ayman
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Salaam
First of all thanks a lot for your precious timeThe first Classical Arabic dictionary is Lisan Al-3arab written by Ibn Al-Manzoor (1233-1311CE) who relied on Abu Mansur Al-Azhari (895-980CE).
Sorry to say your information is not correct.Ibne Manzoor was in 8th Centrury (A.H) i.e 716 AH
While first dictionary which was compiled was "Kitaabul Ain" by Khalil who died in 169 AH
After it many dictionaries were written in different centuries which include
In the 3rd Century we had
Kitaabul ishtiqaaq by Akhfash
Gharibul musannaf by Abu Ubaid
Kitaabul Adhdad by Abu al Hatim Sahl
Kitaabul ishtiqaaq by Mubarrid
Alkaamil fil Lugha by Al Mubarrrid
Sooooooooooooooooo many other in different centuries before lisaan ul Arab ,like Jamharatul lugha by Ibne Duraid
Miqyaasul Lugha, Al lughatul Mojam ,Al saahibi by Ibne Faaris
Sihaah Fil Lugha by Al jauhari
Al mohkam wal MuheetThis is a very small list which was written before Lisaan ul Arab
There is no proof. In fact, quite the opposite, there is plenty of proof that Classical Arabic dictionaries are full of errors and misclassifications. This is why, like any tool, one needs to understand their limitations and biases and use them intelligently and not blindly. One way to use them is to figure out the etymology, which indicates the older meaning that the other meanings were derived from.
When these are all unreliable sources why do you refer to them off and on ?
We actually have a lot of evidence about the names of the months that were used in Arabia. This is due to the fact that there are many inscriptions where the author mentions the date. However, there is no evidence of the so-called Islamic calendar. This indicates that the new Islamic calendar is an invention of the post-Quranic Islamic empire. Even traditions readily admit that the calendar was invented at the time of Umar I and so at the time of the prophet certainly a different calendar was used.
Inscriptions are as UNREILIABLE AS HADITH STUFF.
If the Arabs did not know how to write then where these incriptions came from. I do not know the reason for using "extra - Quranic sources " for the Quran which is complete and "mufassal"
Sunnies use Hadith as extra Quranic sources
Quran alone use Dictionaries as extra Quranic source
Submitters use code 19 as extra Quranic source
You use use inscriptions as extra Quranic sourcesIf at all you want to prove something prove it from the Quran not from
-Hadith
-Code 19
-Dictionaries(according to you)
-Incriptions
because all this stuff is equally unreliable and fabricated. -
Peace Q_student,
First of all thanks a lot for your precious time
You are welcome
Sorry to say your information is not correct.Ibne Manzoor was in 8th Centrury (A.H) i.e 716 AH
Yes. 8th century AH / 13th-14th century CE.
While first dictionary which was compiled was "Kitaabul Ain" by Khalil who died in 169 AH
After it many dictionaries were written in different centuries which include
In the 3rd Century we had
Kitaabul ishtiqaaq by Akhfash
Gharibul musannaf by Abu Ubaid
Kitaabul Adhdad by Abu al Hatim Sahl
Kitaabul ishtiqaaq by Mubarrid
Alkaamil fil Lugha by Al Mubarrrid
Sooooooooooooooooo many other in different centuries before lisaan ul Arab ,like Jamharatul lugha by Ibne Duraid
Miqyaasul Lugha, Al lughatul Mojam ,Al saahibi by Ibne Faaris
Sihaah Fil Lugha by Al jauhari
Al mohkam wal Muheet
This is a very small list which was written before Lisaan ul ArabAre all those works extant?
When these are all unreliable sources why do you refer to them off and on ?
It is OK to refer to unrelibale sources if one takes into account the specific unreliability and doesn't use them uncritically and understands their limitations.
For example, Hadiths are unreliable as far as telling us anything about the prophet or the time of the prophet. On the other hand, they are a reliable source for giving us an indication for the types of debates going on during the late Abbasid era when they were compiled. For example, the Hadiths saying "only write from me the Quran" indicate that there were debates during the Abbassid era against writing Hadiths so someone made up this Hadith to support their view. Etc.
Inscriptions are as UNREILIABLE AS HADITH STUFF.
As I pointed out above, it all depends on knowing their limitations and knowing how to use them.
If the Arabs did not know how to write then where these incriptions came from.
In pre-Islamic times, there is nothing to know about writing Arabic because Arabic was an oral vernacular that was rarely written and it didn't even have a script. Thus, when the great reading was written, the foreign Nabataean Aramaic script was used to write it. This doesn't mean that the Arabs didn't write. They wrote but not in Arabic and only on rare occasions they wrote Arabic and in those rare cases they used foreign scripts to write it.
I do not know the reason for using "extra - Quranic sources " for the Quran which is complete and "mufassal"
Whether we like it or not we all use ?extra-Quranic sources?. You just used a computer to type this and you used English, which is not a language mentioned in the great reading. As I said, it comes down to knowing the limitations of the various other sources. What I also found out is that the sources that are truthful have never contradicted the great reading.
Sunnies use Hadith as extra Quranic sources
Quran alone use Dictionaries as extra Quranic source
Submitters use code 19 as extra Quranic source
You use inscriptions as extra Quranic sources
If at all you want to prove something prove it from the Quran not from
-Hadith
-Code 19
-Dictionaries(according to you)
-Incriptions
because all this stuff is equally unreliable and fabricated.How can inscriptions that can be scientifically dated to pre-Islamic times ?fabricated?? Why would pre-Islamic people fabricate something about a future that they were completely unaware of? Also, all the things that I found from pre-Islamic inscriptions contradict Hadiths and Islamic history but are in line with the great reading. In fact, in the great reading itself we are told several times to examine the traces left by those who came before us (for example, see 309).
Peace,
Ayman
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Salaam Ayman
It is OK to refer to unrelibale sources if one takes into account the specific unreliability and doesn't use them uncritically and understands their limitations.
This statement is another version of code 19.
The common factor is how to get the desired interpretation.
Referring to unreliable sources and then picking up something desired naming it as critically accepted is major catch to intrepret the Quran according to one's own desires.
Try to change your desires according to Quran. Please do not try to change its interepretation t according to your own desires.
Before we were confronted with Hadith Myth and Code 19 and now there is "Inscritption myth".
Regards -
Peace everyone,
For those who believe that the signs/ayaat of The God are in the great reading only, should ponder on the following sign from the great reading itself that says otherwise
4153 We will show them Our signs in the horizons, and within themselves, until it becomes clear to them that this is the truth. Is it not enough that your Lord is witness over all things?
To arrive at the truth, one can ponder on any of the signs of The God, whether they are in the great reading or outside it in the horizons and within ourselves and are thereby "extra-quranic". Those who limit themselves to the signs of The God in the great reading only are violating and contradicting the words of The God Himself.
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Peace Ayman, all,
Please could you provide a list of all the verses that are relevant to this topic. That is, not only the ones you referred to in your article at the beginning of the thread, but also any others you or anyone else contributed to the discussion later on (e.g. pregnancy/weaning, about cycles and time, etc. etc.). Chapter and verse numbers will be fine. Thanks.
A question - I can't remember the exact phrase you used, but you mentioned something about "completing the term" that is mentioned in 2185 and you said that it was related to the "10 (nights?)" in 7142. But isn't the phrase used in 2185 different to the one in 7142? Also, how do you know that "completing the term" is referring to the 10 nights, and not the 30 + 10 = 40 nights? Both 7142 and 251 mention 40 nights. Or is it to do with 2189? This verse doesn't mention siyaam.
Just out of curiosity, is there anyone on this forum who will take tomorrow's full moon, instead of the one after the summer solstice, as shahr ramadaan? Tomorrow's one is closest to the solstice and should therefore be bigger and redder than the following one.
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Peace Nwryn,
Please could you provide a list of all the verses that are relevant to this topic. That is, not only the ones you referred to in your article at the beginning of the thread, but also any others you or anyone else contributed to the discussion later on (e.g. pregnancy/weaning, about cycles and time, etc. etc.). Chapter and verse numbers will be fine. Thanks.
I don't have a ready list. The way I would provide the list is basically by going through the article and subsequent posts and noting every passage that was referenced by me or others. You can just as efficiently do the same thing.
A question - I can't remember the exact phrase you used, but you mentioned something about "completing the term" that is mentioned in 2185 and you said that it was related to the "10 (nights?)" in 7142. But isn't the phrase used in 2185 different to the one in 7142? Also, how do you know that "completing the term" is referring to the 10 nights, and not the 30 + 10 = 40 nights? Both 7142 and 251 mention 40 nights. Or is it to do with 2189? This verse doesn't mention siyaam.
The word "ma3doodat" used in 2185 means "few", in other words a number from 3 to 10. Logically, if I tell you that you need to complete the count of "3 to 10" then this means that you need to count until 10. 2196 which refers to "a complete 10" confirms this.
I agree that 7142 uses different wording but the idea of 10 nights being used to complete a period is clearly used. Similaraly, 2827 talks about making a complete 10 (years). So all this further confirms what we already know logically above.
Also, from the great reading, we can see that the Arabs clearly used a base-10 system.
Just out of curiosity, is there anyone on this forum who will take tomorrow's full moon, instead of the one after the summer solstice, as shahr ramadaan? Tomorrow's one is closest to the solstice and should therefore be bigger and redder than the following one.
The word "ramadhan" has two connotations, hot and red. Only the full-moon after the solstice fits those two connotations since it occurs during the hottest time of the year and is also red.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Nwryn,
I don't have a ready list. The way I would provide the list is basically by going through the article and subsequent posts and noting every passage that was referenced by me or others. You can just as efficiently do the same thing.
The word "ma3doodat" used in 2185 means "few", in other words a number from 3 to 10. Logically, if I tell you that you need to complete the count of "3 to 10" then this means that you need to count until 10. 2196 which refers to "a complete 10" confirms this.
I agree that 7142 uses different wording but the idea of 10 nights being used to complete a period is clearly used. Similaraly, 2827 talks about making a complete 10 (years). So all this further confirms what we already know logically above.
Also, from the great reading, we can see that the Arabs clearly used a base-10 system.
The word "ramadhan" has two connotations, hot and red. Only the full-moon after the solstice fits those two connotations since it occurs during the hottest time of the year and is also red.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace
The word "Ramada" means extremely hot only ,no sense of redness in it.
Secondly the "Ramadhan" is used in the Quran as a "Proper Noun" because it is being used as a "diptote". It cannot be translated as Sunday ,Monday etc cannot be translated.
Regards -
Peace
The word "Ramada" means extremely hot only ,no sense of redness in it.
Secondly the "Ramadhan" is used in the Quran as a "Proper Noun" because it is being used as a "diptote". It cannot be translated as Sunday ,Monday etc cannot be translated.
RegardsI agree with you that it is Ramadan as in the ninth month of the lunar calendar.
Here are the meaningsRa-Miim-Dad = to be burning, heat, be blasted by the sun. ramaDda - to sharpen (a spear) between stones, roast, pasture on a burning ground, burn. ramDda - scorching heat, burning hot (ground). ramadzan - the ninth month of Islamic calendar, the month of fast.
You're right - no redness involved.
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Peace Q_student,
The word "Ramada" means extremely hot only ,no sense of redness in it.
This was already discussed and the fact that the usage and examples given in the dictionary in relation to the rubbing of the thigh and the redness of the eyes confirm that the connotation of red color is present and as you admitted, the first thing that happens is that the eyes become red.
Secondly the "Ramadhan" is used in the Quran as a "Proper Noun" because it is being used as a "diptote". It cannot be translated as Sunday ,Monday etc cannot be translated.
Proper names are not "diptote" and the vocalization marks are manmade lies that are not part of the original text of the great reading. For example, Thamud is not diptote. It is diptote one time and "triptote" another. The inconsistencies occur in the accusative because the vocalizers couldn't delete the Alif but could insert their false vocalization marks.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Q_student,
This was already discussed and the fact that the usage and examples given in the dictionary in relation to the rubbing of the thigh and the redness of the eyes confirm that the connotation of red color is present and as you admitted, the first thing that happens is that the eyes become red.
Proper names are not "diptote" and the vocalization marks are manmade lies that are not part of the original text of the great reading. For example, Thamud is not diptote. It is diptote one time and "triptote" another. The inconsistencies occur in the accusative because the vocalizers couldn't delete the Alif but could insert their false vocalization marks.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace
Would you please copy paste the verse in which it is (thamud) used as "triptote" ?
Regards -
Peace Q_student,
Would you please copy paste the verse in which it is (thamud) used as "triptote" ?
Better yet, here are scanned images directly from the Quran
1168
http//www.salamiran.org/Religion/Quran/PAGE229.GIF2538
http//www.salamiran.org/Religion/Quran/PAGE363.GIF2938
http//www.salamiran.org/Religion/Quran/PAGE399.GIF5351
http//www.salamiran.org/Religion/Quran/PAGE527.GIFPlease note that Thamud has a final Alif as "Thamudaa" in all those passages. In fact, in 1168 it is spelled both with a final Alif and without in the same verse. Notice that all those inconsistencies appear in the accusative because vocalizers couldn't delete the final Alif from the text but could freely adjust their invented vocalization marks. Unfortunately, just like 19ers, some so-called Islamic web sites have taken it upon themselves to delete the Alif and correct the god's words
http//www.al-islam.org/quran/process.asp?tArabic=on&Sura=11&SavedSura=1&fAya=68&tAya=68&searchText=&arabicdisplay=windows
So it is better if you look at an actual scanned copy.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Q_student,
Better yet, here are scanned images directly from the Quran
1168
http//www.salamiran.org/Religion/Quran/PAGE229.GIF2538
http//www.salamiran.org/Religion/Quran/PAGE363.GIF2938
http//www.salamiran.org/Religion/Quran/PAGE399.GIF5351
http//www.salamiran.org/Religion/Quran/PAGE527.GIFPlease note that Thamud has a final Alif as "Thamudaa" in all those passages. In fact, in 1168 it is spelled both with a final Alif and without in the same verse. Notice that all those inconsistencies appear in the accusative because vocalizers couldn't delete the final Alif from the text but could freely adjust their invented vocalization marks. Unfortunately, just like 19ers, some so-called Islamic web sites have taken it upon themselves to delete the Alif and correct the god's words
http//www.al-islam.org/quran/process.asp?tArabic=on&Sura=11&SavedSura=1&fAya=68&tAya=68&searchText=&arabicdisplay=windows
So it is better if you look at an actual scanned copy.
Peace,
Ayman
Dear Brother
These are your quoted verses(67)
These examples of yours show that you do not know even what diptote and triptote is .
In all of these verses it is used as "Diptote"
May ask you what are diptote and triptotes ?
I was not expecting such type of ignorance from a person who belongs to an Arabi speaking country (If I am not wrong).Is Arabic not taught over there ?
Regards -
Peace Q_student,
These are your quoted verses
(67)These examples of yours show that you do not know even what diptote and triptote is .
In all of these verses it is used as "Diptote"
May ask you what are diptote and triptotes ?
I was not expecting such type of ignorance from a person who belongs to an Arabi speaking country (If I am not wrong).Is Arabic not taught over there ?Can't you read? If you can then why are you playing stupid? You and whoever you copied from is a liar who deleted the Alif from . See the scanned pages that I provided and tell me, do you see an Alif? YES or NO. There is no third choice so don't keep lying.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Q_student,
Can't you read? If you can then why are you playing stupid? You and whoever you copied from is a liar who deleted the Alif from . See the scanned pages that I provided and tell me, do you see an Alif? YES or NO. There is no third choice so don't keep lying.
Peace,
Ayman
Dear Brother
I have asked you what are diptotes and triptotes. Give me their definitions and their signs to recognize them with EVIDENCE. Do not talk like illiterate persons.I am 100% sure that you do not know about diptotes and triptotes.Define them with evidence.Presence or absence of alif is never a Sign of Diptote.It shows your ignorance.
Regards -
Peace Q_student,
I have asked you what are diptotes and triptotes. Give me their definitions and their signs to recognize them with EVIDENCE. Do not talk like illiterate persons.I am 100% sure that you do not know about diptotes and triptotes.Define them with evidence.Presence or absence of alif is never a Sign of Diptote.It shows your ignorance.
I asked you a simple YES or NO question. Just answer instead of spewing out your usual crap.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Q_student,
I asked you a simple YES or NO question. Just answer instead of spewing out your usual crap.
Peace,
Ayman
Dear Brother
These are not signs of diptote or triptote. Please give me the definition of Diptotes and Triptote and what are signs used to recognize "DIPTOTE", then you will see what blunders you are comitting. Please also provide Evidence for the signs of DIPTOTES.
Regards -
These are not signs of diptote or triptote. Please give me the definition of Diptotes and Triptote and what are signs used to recognize "DIPTOTE", then you will see what blunders you are comitting. Please also provide Evidence for the signs of DIPTOTES.
No matter what you think, do you admit that there is an Alif in Thamudaa in the passages that I quoted? YES or NO.
Speak the truth and don't be a coward and a liar.
Peace,
Ayman
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No matter what you think, do you admit that there is an Alif in Thamudaa in the passages that I quoted? YES or NO.
Speak the truth and don't be a coward and a liar.
Peace,
Ayman
Dear Brother
This is what I am telling you .Alif has nothing to do with being diptote or triptote. If you thing that it is sign regarding this two terms.Bring up Evidence from any Grammar book.Ohther your persistance avoidence of definition of DIPTOTE or TRIPTOTE with evidence indicates that you do not know about them.It is exactly as you could not pull out the roots of the verb "tashakkat".
Secondly, what this have to do with "Ramadhan" which is diptote.It is a Proper Noun
For reference see Lane's Lexicon.I am still waiting for evidence.
Regards
Regards