Is Rukooh and Sajood part of Salaat ?

truthseeker11

Peace Wakas, everyone,

Also in AQ
2573 Those who when they are reminded of their Lord's signs, they do not fall on them deaf and blind.

Implying one should "fall" on them seeing and listening, i.e. give them due care and attention.

Thank you for the sign. It will be an excellent addition to my arsenal

Firstly, perhaps you meant in the context of group salat (bond/homage).

Yes, I meant in the context of group salaat.

Secondly, AQ gives us a nice end-point expression, e.g. "we hear and obey", but that does not mean it is the only one and compulsory one.

What I meant was at least we can all unanimously agree about the preferred sujud of choice for the group salaat as evidenced from the qur'aan.

Another point that just occurred to me which proves that a human sujud to the god could not have been a physical directional prostration

2724 ?And I found her and her people prostrating to the sun instead of God! And the devil had made their work appear good to them, so he kept them away from the path, for they are not being guided.?

The hoopoe obviously cannot read people's minds and the god obviously is not a physical object existing in a certain direction. If someone observes another person physically prostrating at the two edges of the day, how can the observing person differentiate if the sujud is to the god or to the sun especially when the direction of the sujud is towards the path of the sun. It would appear as if the sujud is to the sun. There is no way to differentiate a sujud to the god from a sujud to the sun if the sujud is a physical direction prostration of any kind. ANY physical prostration that is directional, for example even bowing the head until the chin touches the chest could be interpreted as sujud to the sun. The only sujud that would be unambiguously directed to the god and therefore can be differentiated from a sujud to the sun would be a verbal + mental one like saying "we hear and obey". Conversely, a verbal + mental sujud to the god like saying "we hear and obey" cannot be interpreted by the hoopoe as being to the sun instead of the god.

This proves that the hoopoe must have found the people to be doing some kind of physical directional prostration which the hoopoe then interpreted as being to the sun instead to the god. If the actual sujud to the god being commanded to us is also a physical directional prostration then it would have been impossible for the hoopoe to say that the people were prostrating to the sun instead to the god, unless the god is also a physical object present only in a certain direction. Since the god is not a physical object existing only in a certain direction, and since the hoopoe cannot read people's minds, the only logical implication of the hoopoe's statement could be that the actual sujud to the god cannot be a physical directional prostration, otherwise it will be impossible to differentiate a sujud to the god from a sujud to the sun.

If, on the other hand, sujud to the sun is interpreted to be not a physical directional prostration, for example adore/honor/magnify the sun, then again it proves there is no physical directional prostration to the god either.

This proves that no matter how one interprets sujud to the sun, a human sujud to the god according to the qur'aan can only be a verbal + mental one like saying "we hear and obey" instead of a physical directional prostration of any kind.

Wakas

peace ts11,

What I meant was at least we can all unanimously agree about the preferred sujud of choice for the group salaat as evidenced from the qur'aan.

Thanks for clarifying.

As a side note, your point about the hoopoe was touched upon in one of the best threads on sjd. Another point of note, often not mentioned, is the following comment by mh

Look at this verse

?And to God yasjudo all that are in heavens and the earth, willingly and unwillingly, as do their shadows in the morning and the evening.?1315

If we accept that someone or something may prostrate physically (nose and forehead on ground) willingly, how can we understand this UNWILLINGLY physical prostration! Does God push people on their faces forcefully so that they fall down on their noses and foreheads UNWILLINGLY?

I think that it is clear that physical prostration with noses and foreheads has nothing to do with it.

guest

Peace,

Sajood means fall on your chin, as well as fall on your head/nose. Any one of them is considered sajood. The problem arises when one tries to force one meaning to sajood.

Wakas

peace,

Sajood means fall on your chin, as well as fall on your head/nose. Any one of them is considered sajood. The problem arises when one tries to force one meaning to sajood.

I think a problem also arises when someone makes an unevidenced/baseless post, e.g. says "sajood" means XYZ and brings no Quranic evidence.

guest

Peace Wakas,

?I think a problem also arises when someone makes an unevidenced/baseless post, e.g. says "sajood" means XYZ and brings no Quranic evidence.?

And where is your Quranic evidence for your approach or the approach you follow. I will make the matter simple, specifically, where does the Quran say that every word in the Quran will have one and only one meaning. I think I have just given away my Quranic evidence for my approach without saying it.

By nature or by design every language has the ambiguity attributes built into it. Although some may be more efficient than the other, nonetheless, all speaking languages are ambiguous. This is the human instinct evidence for the problem at hand.

Remember Quran is easy to understand. One has to be aware of those who try hard to make Quran difficult.

Also, take note of the analogy, a big fish in a small pond may be almost nothing in the ocean. Yes, compare the membership of this forum vs. the total population of the world. Unless you think, this forum contains all the topnotch people in the world, one must question the validity of any resolution achieved in this forum.

Anyway, I was anticipating this kind of response from you.

Wakas

peace guest, all,

My Quranic evidence is every occurrence in The Quran, and the application of logic and cross-referencing. Feel free to read this thread, among others, for example.

I will make the matter simple, specifically, where does the Quran say that every word in the Quran will have one and only one meaning. I think I have just given away my Quranic evidence for my approach without saying it.

Exactly, and as I have already said in the forum, the only evidence for people who believe sjd=prostration is to say it can theoretically mean this in a few occurrences, just like it can theoretically mean "salute", "stand up" or any other Classical Arabic meaning, and if you found a Classical Arabic meaning saying "handstand" you could say it means that too based on this methodology. In reality, this is no evidence.

guest

Preace Wakas,

I am assuming you are relying on Arabic dictionary to extract meaning of Quranic words to interpret Quranic verses. This is a flawed approach because it will not work for all cases. Here is why

The God protected the Quran because human cannot be trusted with this responsibility
On the contrary, you trust human with the preservation of the correct meaning of Arabic words prevalent at the time of revelation. Isn?t this the same as trusting the hadith? Who validated the dictionary? Where are the criteria?
Now, you are seeing Quran through the eyes of a flawed dictionary
And don?t forget the satan. He knows you will be doing this, therefore, he will corrupt it to lead people away from God?s path
Therefore, this approach leads to an erroneous understanding of the Quran

Better approach

The God created us with the ability to understand His creation and the Quran
Therefore, use our ability and seek the God?s help
That it

Since the God has bestowed some believer with more wisdom than other, we can accept their interpretation of Quran only when it agrees with our built-in instinct.

Since salat is mandatory on all humankind, it must be done by all, even if one is sick or bedridden.

When one is bedridden, his sjd is fall on the chin.

When one is physically fit his sjd is fall on his head/face or the chin.

When one is incapable of doing the above two, mental sjd is sufficient. Of course in the other two cases it is the mental sjd that leads to the physical act.

Quran contains straightforward and multiple-meaning verses. It is the multiple-meaning words that make a verse multiple-meaning. There is nothing wrong with multiple-meaning verses, believers can use them, only the hypocrite will extract unquranic meaning to distract good people away from the God.

These are my understanding.

Wakas

peace guest,

Your post disappoints me. If you had carefully read my first sentence you would have seen my methodology is not based on a dictionary. In fact, how you came to this conclusion is anyone's guess.

Also, some of the info in your post has no Quranic basis, and are simply unevidenced statements. That is not how I prefer to discuss and learn. The forum rules also do not take kindly to such posts, but each to their own. Peace.

arista

Salam,

The God protected the Quran because human cannot be trusted with this responsibility

Since the God has bestowed some believer with more wisdom than other, we can accept their interpretation of Quran only when it agrees with our built-in instinct.

Who validated their interpretation? Where are the criteria?

guest

Peace Wakas,

The answer is in my previous post. Hear it is again.

"......when it agrees with our built-in instinct."

guest

The previous post should have been addressed to arista an not Wakas. I am sorry about that mistake.

Q_student

Peace Wakas,

The answer is in my previous post. Hear it is again.

"......when it agrees with our built-in instinct."

Peace Brother
In one of you post above you said

Quran contains straightforward and multiple-meaning verses. It is the multiple-meaning words that make a verse multiple-meaning. There is nothing wrong with multiple-meaning verses, believers can use them, only the hypocrite will extract unquranic meaning to distract good people away from the God.

These are my understanding.

Can you please give a few examples of "THESE MULTIPLE MEANINGS OF ANY VERSE"?
Regards

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

In one of you post above you said Can you please give a few examples of "THESE MULTIPLE MEANINGS OF ANY VERSE"?
Regards

37, 754, 1778 and others.

guest

Peace Wakas,

?In fact, how you came to this conclusion is anyone's guess.?

My conclusion is based on the following

Your post on this thread ??..and if you found a Classical Arabic meaning??

And your post on other thread

77 General Issues / Questions / General Issues / Questions / Re The Message - Second Edition
on May 31, 2009, 032935 PM
peace progressive1993,

How many mistakes can you make in one post?

You quoted the wrong verse, it is not 6115, it is 2173.

The Arabic in question in 6115 is "rahim" NOT "rahman". There is a difference.

Again, you make the same mistake in your 9128-129, it is "raheem" not "rahman". There is a difference.

Then you make a mistake when you say "this is from Lane" and what you quote is from Project Root List which uses multiple Classical Arabic dictionaries as blatantly stated on its homepage, so unless you have went through Lane yourself and seen that is exactly and only what it says, then you are mistaken. Of course, PRL uses a lot of Lane's Lexicon, but that does not mean they are equivalent.

Also, if you are using Project Root List, please use the cross-reference! It clearly separates out the occurrences of "rahim" and "rahman" for everyone to see. If you had done so, it would have prevented your mistakes.

And this

88 General Issues / Questions / Questions/Comments on the Quran / Re Kill Your Egos?
on May 29, 2009, 051835 PM
In addition to application of reasoning/logic, one can also cross-reference

"...faoqtuloo anfusakum..."

http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
Qaf-Ta-Lam
Nun-Fa-Siin

Q_student

37, 754, 1778 and others.

Dear Progress
1This question was not directed to you.
2If you have come in then please post the actual arabic verses (because it is Quran) + their possible meanings.
Regards

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Dear Progress
1This question was not directed to you.
2If you have come in then please post the actual arabic verses (because it is Quran) + their possible meanings.
Regards

doesnt matter if you have directed it towards me. The forum is for everyone and you always join in the debated that I have with others. So there should be no problem.

Just see how people disagree with the translations/interpretations about the verses which I have provided you with. Go search the web and you will find out. Bedies, I have already made clear in one of the past discussion we had that language is irrelevant. The sincere and knowledgeable will understand God's word no matter which language it is in.

Since you are never content when I post a verse in english (which is totally unjustified, btw) i didnt post one this time. I left it for you to look up in the original arabic. If you want I can post different translations of the verses, which alone will prove that they have multiple-meaings.

Peace

Q_student

doesnt matter if you have directed it towards me. The forum is for everyone and you always join in the debated that I have with others. So there should be no problem.

Just see how people disagree with the translations/interpretations about the verses which I have provided you with. Go search the web and you will find out. Bedies, I have already made clear in one of the past discussion we had that language is irrelevant. The sincere and knowledgeable will understand God's word no matter which language it is in.

Since you are never content when I post a verse in english (which is totally unjustified, btw) i didnt post one this time. I left it for you to look up in the original arabic. If you want I can post different translations of the verses, which alone will prove that they have multiple-meaings.
Peace

Peace Brother
I believe only in Quran not in Translations which are used to satisfy one's own agenda.
Regards

Wakas

peace guest,

Once again, you have shown your deductive/reasoning skills to be very poor. If you had bothered to read the homepage of Project Root List, or even had a read of any root entry, you will see it utilises Quranic usage heavily (i.e. full cross-reference), in fact, it is integral to it. Thus, to imply my methodology is based on a dictionary is laughable. Let me make it clear for you and everyone else if a dictionary says word XYZ means ABC but this meaning does not fit with The Quran's usage and/or logic, I will reject the dictionary meaning; The Quran and the methodology it promotes is the primary criterion.

It is not a surprise to me however that there may be a correlation between someone having faulty deductive/reasoning skills and this same person holding an unevidenced view such as sjd means physical prostration.

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Peace Brother
I believe only in Quran not in Translations which are used to satisfy one's own agenda.
Regards

Fine. Do what you like. Check Quran translations. I suggest www.quranix.net
Check the verses that I have given you. There are footnotes there explaining what the translators think of the verses. Also compare those translations with Yusuf Ali's or so. Then you will see if it's multiple-meaning or not. Furthermore, you can see for yurself when you try to understand/translate a verse.

Peace

Q_student

Fine. Do what you like. Check Quran translations. I suggest www.quranix.net
Check the verses that I have given you. There are footnotes there explaining what the translators think of the verses. Also compare those translations with Yusuf Ali's or so. Then you will see if it's multiple-meaning or not. Furthermore, you can see for yurself when you try to understand/translate a verse.

Peace

Peace
I only believe in Quran not their translations.Only Quran is divine not traslations.
Regards