The Message - Second Edition

truthseeker11

Peace Layth, everyone,

Whilst this edition has some small improvements over the last one (e.g. kaaba is finally "base", actually it should be base with a small "b" instead of Base with a capital B, so disappointed there too), I am utterly disappointed with the current edition.

It seems like the god mentioned in the current edition of The Message has some limitations and is present at a distance because we have to OUTREACH for him and he has to OUTREACH for us. My god does not have to OUTREACH for a prophet (3356 as translated in the current edition of the message). My god is closer than the jugular vein and is present everywhere. My god is not present at a distance from me so I don't have to OUTREACH for him.

The qur'aan that I know is a written book and not a RECITATION. The dictionary definition of recitation points to absence of a text.

There are many other disappointments also due to many many other mistranslated words.

1041 And if they deny you, then say ?I have my deeds, and you have your deeds. You are innocent from what I do, and I am innocent from what you do.?

378 And from amongst them is a group that twist their tongues with the book so that you may think it is from the book, while it is not from the book, and they say it is from the god while it is not from the god, and they say about the god lies while they know.

I can only pray to the god to guide us.

Layth

Peace,

There will always be dissapointments (can please some of the people most of the time, can please most of the people some of the time, but can never please all the people all the time!).

Kaaba as base (with a small b will be re-examined).

As for outreaching, I don't know exactly who the god you are referring to is, but the God I know is not physically everywhere but sits on a throne which is based upon the water (117), and the place where He resides has a day that is equal to 1,000 of our days (2247), when He appeared here last, the mountain crumbled as it was unable to bear His presence (7134). God will only come to our world physically along with the angels on J-day (8922). Therefore, yes, we do need to reachout to God and traverse the physical boundaries that seperate us from Him (thatis why Salat has specific rules, times, form, etc...It is not like a prayer which can be done wnytime anywhere in anyform).

Finally, on Recitation, yes, the Quran is a recitation and was never revealed as the Torah was being written in its original form. The prophet wrote it down, then he rearanged the verses according to the instructions he received from the Almighty.

Wakas

outreaching is a verb, whilst salat is a noun. If you wanted to use the noun, it would be outreach.

Not that I agree with the translation of "outreach" or "outreaching" to begin with. salat is more closely translated as "bond" or "homage".

For the record, I did not check over anything else.

ayman

Peace Layth,

There will always be dissapointments (can please some of the people most of the time, can please most of the people some of the time, but can never please all the people all the time!).
Kaaba as base (with a small b will be re-examined).

Thank you for the good effort. This is a big improvement.

As for outreaching, I don't know exactly who the god you are referring to is, but the God I know is not physically everywhere but sits on a throne which is based upon the water (117), and the place where He resides has a day that is equal to 1,000 of our days (2247), when He appeared here last, the mountain crumbled as it was unable to bear His presence (7134). God will only come to our world physically along with the angels on J-day (8922). Therefore, yes, we do need to reachout to God and traverse the physical boundaries that seperate us from Him (thatis why Salat has specific rules, times, form, etc...It is not like a prayer which can be done wnytime anywhere in anyform).

No one is talking about the limited physical aspects that we are familiar with. The god's throne encompasses the heavens and the earth (2255) so it is everywhere. Moreover, as you said his throne is on water (117). Since it also encompasses the heavens and the earth then it is on every drop of water in the heavens and the earth. Every living thing in the heavens and the earth, including us, is made of water. So whether we like it or not, the god's throne is on us. I hope that you can appreciate how the god is indeed very near to us (not in the same way that humans physically define near but much nearer). Indeed he is nearer to us then even the blood made of water flowing through our jugular vain.

Finally, on Recitation, yes, the Quran is a recitation and was never revealed as the Torah was being written in its original form. The prophet wrote it down, then he rearanged the verses according to the instructions he received from the Almighty.

This is not accurate. The great reading is always described as a book (a written document). 961-4 make it clear that "quran" means reading and not recitation because we are clearly told to "iqra'a by your most generous/honorable lord who taught by the PEN". The reference to teaching by the pen makes it clear that "iqra'" means "read" and not "recite". All of the above plus the references to the words of the god not running out even if the sea was ink and the trees were pens make it absolutely certain that "quran" is better translated as "reading" and not "recitation".

I agree with Wakas that one of the aspects of "salat" is the "bond" or "connection". The other aspect is "learning" which takes us out of the darkness and into the light and is the only way to REMEMBER. You can call it whatever you want to call it as long as you capture those two aspects.

Peace,

Ayman

truthseeker11

Peace,

As for outreaching, I don't know exactly who the god you are referring to is, but the God I know is not physically everywhere but sits on a throne which is based upon the water (117), and the place where He resides has a day that is equal to 1,000 of our days (2247), when He appeared here last, the mountain crumbled as it was unable to bear His presence (7134). God will only come to our world physically along with the angels on J-day (8922). Therefore, yes, we do need to reachout to God and traverse the physical boundaries that seperate us from Him (thatis why Salat has specific rules, times, form, etc...It is not like a prayer which can be done wnytime anywhere in anyform).

You forgot that the god also has hands (373, 564, 3967, 4810, 5729).

2115 And to the god belongs the east and the west, so wherever you turn, there is the god?s presence. The god is encompassing, knowledgeable.

2255 The god, there is no god but he, the living, the sustainer. No slumber or sleep overtakes him; to him belongs all that is in heavens and in the earth. Who will intercede with him except by his leave? He knows their present and their future, and they do not have any of his knowledge except for what he wishes. His throne encompasses all of the heavens and the earth and it is easy for him to preserve them. He is the most high, the great.

4126 And to the god is what is in heavens and in the earth; the god is encompassing over all things.

4154 Indeed, they are in doubt about meeting their lord; but he is encompassing all things.

7134 has nothing to do with what you are saying.

REVEALING/MAKING OBVIOUS/APPARENT/MANIFEST to a mountain (7143) does not mean he was not present there. He could be hidden and still be present everywhere.

He appeared here last

Not only are you insulting the god by turning him into a limited object far away from us but now you also seem to have knowledge of when the god appeared last.

God will only come to our world physically along with the angels on J-day

Now you are contradicting yourself. In the same sentence you just finished saying he appeared here last to the mountain, and now you claim that he will only come to our world physically on J-day. Where is "physically" in 8922 anyway? Which row will the physical god be in?

The coming of the lord in 8922 is his revealing himself/making himself apparent/manifest/obvious

8922 And your lord stands revealed and the controllers rank upon rank.

Finally, on Recitation, yes, the Quran is a recitation and was never revealed as the Torah was being written in its original form. The prophet wrote it down, then he rearanged the verses according to the instructions he received from the Almighty.

22 This is the book in which there is no doubt, a guide for the righteous.
271 T?.S, these are the signs of the Qur?an and a clear book.

It is being called a book while it is being revealed, even before it was written down. So it cannot be a recitation. the qur'aan can be recited but itself cannot mean recitation otherwise you are contradicting 22 and 271

There will always be dissapointments (can please some of the people most of the time, can please most of the people some of the time, but can never please all the people all the time!).

It is not the matter of pleasing us. I really don't give a damn if I am pleased or not. It is the matter of pleasing the god and not ascribing lies to him. Anyway, I seek refuge of the god from the pagan physical limited god of The Message.

Prince

Ayman and truthseeker11 make good points.

We have to be careful focusing on one verse when it comes to topics because as can be seen it is easy to reach a wrong conclusion without looking at all verses.

The God encompasses the heavens and earth so Him appearing last to a mountain and His throne being on water, has to be taken as metaphorical verses to be in harmony with other verses in The Reading.

PEACE

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

2115 And to the god belongs the east and the west, so wherever you turn, there is the god?s presence. The god is encompassing, knowledgeable.

2255 The god, there is no god but he, the living, the sustainer. No slumber or sleep overtakes him; to him belongs all that is in heavens and in the earth. Who will intercede with him except by his leave? He knows their present and their future, and they do not have any of his knowledge except for what he wishes. His throne encompasses all of the heavens and the earth and it is easy for him to preserve them. He is the most high, the great.

4126 And to the god is what is in heavens and in the earth; the god is encompassing over all things.

4154 Indeed, they are in doubt about meeting their lord; but he is encompassing all things.

I fully agree. Furthermore I would say that the "throne" is allegorical/metaphorical. It symbolizes authority. You CANNOT confine God to a single spot (ie. on a physical throne). You cannot divide him into parts, I think this even amounts to Shirk (dividing up God) which is what a Shia guy on a youtube video said.

The problem with Kaaba as "Base" or "base" is that or a non-Muslim, for example, would not know which base you are talking about.

Also, please add some verbs to the Fatiha (e.g. "Praise BE to God", "All praise IS due to God", "It IS you (alone) whom we...", etc.)

Peace

ayman

Peace Progressive,

The problem with Kaaba as "Base" or "base" is that or a non-Muslim, for example, would not know which base you are talking about.

Everyone knows what a base is and it is a universal concept. Even little kids know that everyone is SAFE at the base when they play, for example, hide and seek. The base as a safe place where people can gather is a universal concept. The god clearly explains that the inviolable house is the base. If anyone doesn't know what they are talking about then it is the majority of so-called Muslims who have hijacked this simple universal concept and turned it into the meaningless proper name of an Arab pagan stone cube.

Peace,

Ayman

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

243 And uphold the communion, and contribute towards betterment, and kneel with those who kneel.

343 "O Mary, be dutiful to your Lord and prostrate and kneel with those who kneel."

2226 And We have appointed to Abraham the location of the Dwelling "Do not set up anyone with Me, and purify My Dwelling for those who visit, and those who are standing, and the kneeling, the prostrating."

3824 He said "He has wronged you by asking to combine your lamb with his lambs. And many who mix their properties take advantage of one another, except those who believe and do good works, and these are very few." And David guessed that We had tested him, so he sought forgiveness from his Lord, and fell down kneeling, and repented.

4829 ...you see them kneeling and prostrating...

I'd suggest you translate "ruku" as "bow" not "kneel".

Ra-Kaf-Ayn = bowed, bent, incline, humility, humble yourself, lower the head.

Layth

Salam all,

OK, project is now complete. I am planning to upload the new files late tommorow.

If someone can have a glance at all the verb occurances of "salat" to ensure that they have been translated properly I would appreciate it.

Second Edition text
http//free-minds.org/sites/default/files/quran.pdf

Second Edition cover
http//free-minds.org/sites/default/files/newcover.pdf

To Progressive

On the Ruku issue, it is not bow because the act of Ruku can involve one doing so in a falling motion (see 3824). That is why I chose Kneel.

truthseeker11

Peace Layth,

Thank you for translating "salaat" as "bond" and "al-qur'aan" as "the reading". bravo bravo bravo

Finally some HUGE improvement. Keep up the good work.

Previously I had given up on The Message but now I am looking forward to buying the new edition. yay yay yay

A small suggestion "aqeem al-salaat" should be "uphold/establish the bond" instead of "hold".

Another important suggestion "sawm" should be translated to "abstinence" because it has been used in the qur'aan not only for fasting (which implies food and drink) but also from talking (Mary's abstinence), and from sex.

From dictionary.com

fast/f?st, fst/ Show Spelled Pronunciation Show IPA

?verb (used without object)

to abstain from all food.
to eat only sparingly or of certain kinds of food, esp. as a religious observance.

?verb (used with object)

to cause to abstain entirely from or limit food; put on a fast to fast a patient for a day before surgery.

?noun

an abstinence from food, or a limiting of one's food, esp. when voluntary and as a religious observance; fasting.
a day or period of fasting.

abstinence/?bstnns/ Show Spelled Pronunciation Show IPA

?noun

forbearance from any indulgence of appetite, esp. from the use of alcoholic beverages total abstinence.
any self-restraint, self-denial, or forbearance.
Economics. the conserving of current income in order to build up capital or savings.
the state of being without a drug, as alcohol or heroin, on which one is dependent.

I hope the "shahr" and "hajj" issue is resolved soon too.

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Salam all,

OK, project is now complete. I am planning to upload the new files late tommorow.

If someone can have a glance at all the verb occurances of "salat" to ensure that they have been translated properly I would appreciate it.

Second Edition text
http//free-minds.org/sites/default/files/quran.pdf

Second Edition cover
http//free-minds.org/sites/default/files/newcover.pdf

To Progressive

On the Ruku issue, it is not bow because the act of Ruku can involve one doing so in a falling motion (see 3824). That is why I chose Kneel.

Perhaps it means "bow DOWN". But your point is valid. I'll have a look on that issue for myself a bit later.

Nevertheless, some good corrections have been made.
I would change the cover though, if I were you. It looks exactly the same as the first edition. Perhaps a different color?

I like that you quoted 22.

Good work!

mmouhammad

Peace Layth, all

I posted the following subject a while a go, please have a look when you have time.

Traditional interpretation of the Quran and the Translation of the Message 2nd edition

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598605.0

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

I would change another thing. Instead of translating "ayat" as "revelations" you should use "signs".

Example

Instead of "I will turn away from My revelations..." (7146), It should be "I will turn away my SIGNS..."

truthseeker11

Peace Layth,

It should be "bonded" instead of "communed" in 7443. You changed it to bond everywhere else but I guess you overlooked that sign.

Layth

Peace,

It should be "bonded" instead of "communed" in 7443. You changed it to bond everywhere else but I guess you overlooked that sign.

The changes for the printed edition are all based on the pdf file (in which 7443 is correctly translated as "bonded&quot. What I believe you are referring to is the online Quran that is available on this site? If so, then that will not get fixed for another 2 weeks as I am travelling and do not have access to the source files (

vivek

Peace Layth,

Finally, on Recitation, yes, the Quran is a recitation and was never revealed as the Torah was being written in its original form. The prophet wrote it down, then he rearanged the verses according to the instructions he received from the Almighty.

Except the ten commandments, all other portions of the Torah also were revealed as a recitation.

How do you know Muhammad rearranged the Quran in the present order after it was fully revealed, that too, in accordance with instructions from God? What is your proof for this belief? If Muhammad received instructions from God after completion of revelation of the entire Quran, why are you not considering these instructions as God's revelations which in this case must have formed part of the Quran? You are only following the baseless tale of your forefathers that the Quran is fully preserved and that the present Quran order was made by Muhammad as instructed by God.

Yours truly,

K.Vivekanandan

mmouhammad

Peace Layth,

Except the ten commandments, all other portions of the Torah also were revealed as a recitation.

How do you know Muhammad rearranged the Quran in the present order after it was fully revealed, that too, in accordance with instructions from God? What is your proof for this belief? If Muhammad received instructions from God after completion of revelation of the entire Quran, why are you not considering these instructions as God's revelations which in this case must have formed part of the Quran? You are only following the baseless tale of your forefathers that the Quran is fully preserved and that the present Quran order was made by Muhammad as instructed by God.

Yours truly,

K.Vivekanandan

Peace all,

17106
17106 and a reading we divided so that you read it unto the people regularly, and we sent down its divisions accordingly.

2532
2532 And those who rejected said ?If only the Reading was sent down to him in one go!? It was done as such so we could strengthen your heart with it, and we arranged it accordingly.
2533
2533 And for every example they come to you with, we bring you the truth and the best explanation.

731 732 733 734
731 O you, the one covered with his garments. 732 Stand the night except for a little. 733 Half of it, or less a little. 734 Or more a little, and arrange the Reading in its arrangement.

In verses 17106 and 3532&33, God is confirming that the reading was not revealed all at once and has given us two reasons. 1- To strengthen the mind and heart of the Messenger and 2- To gradually build up a faithful community in a practical and realistic way and prepare whole new generations under Quran's education system, an era, history said it continued for 23 years.

God also in verse 17106 informed us that accordingly, he arranged the revelation of the reading to serve these purposes.

In verses 731 to 4 God is instructing the Messenger to arrange the reading according to its arrangement immediately after if has been revealed.

20114
20114 ? and do not rush into the reading before its revelation to you is complete?

7516 7517 7518 7519
7516 Do not move your tongue with it to expedite it. 7517 It is for us to gather it and read it. 7518 So when we read it, you shall follow its Reading. 7519 Then it is for us to explain it.

In verses 20114 and 7516, we see that God is instructing the Messenger not to rush into reading before its revelation is complete and not to move his tongue with it to expedite it. Here the questions are, how would anyone rush into reading something before it is fully revealed to him and how would he move his tongue "trying to read it" in order to expedite it.

Come to think of this, I take it that the book is the written format, and the reading is the vocal format. According to history and current known facts, The Quran was initially written in plan Arabic alphabet hence the existence of various readings till today.

In light of the above can we not consider that the Quran in its plan written format was engraved "downloaded directly" into the Messenger's Unconscious Memory? And that the gradual revelation was the reading "vocal format" that brought forward the engraved writing to the conscious memory. Can we not think that the Messenger was trying on his own by moving his tongue, to recite, vocally that is, to read what is already written inside his memory and wondering how would he be able to gather it all and arrange it as required? Therefore we can understand the instruction in verses 20114 and 7516-19.
Further more in verse 876 God tells the Messenger that he will make him read so he won't forget. 876 as a responce to the Messenger's thought that he is unable to remember what he knows that he already has inside him.

Another point to make here is related to the stand alone letters that some chapters of the Quran start with, such as ALM, TH, TS and the like. When we read these letters we say their alphabetic names such as ALIF LAM MEEM and so on, however, in the written format these letters are connected in similar way to words. In another word, if someone is writing according to hearing alone, he would write the alphabetic names and if he is reading the written format alone, he would say them as words, connected letters that is.

Therefore we can say that for anyone to read and write these letters in correct form he must have knowledge of both reading and writing in order for him to instruct others and be able to verify what has been written.

vivek

Peace mmouhammad,

Your reply does not address my questions. The core issue is whether the present order of the Quran text is the one dictated and authorised by God and how one can assuredly tell that the Quran has been preserved fully with no alteration or loss of portions of the original Quran.

Yours truly,

K.Vivekanandan

Layth

Salam,

How do you know Muhammad rearranged the Quran in the present order after it was fully revealed, that too, in accordance with instructions from God? What is your proof for this belief? If Muhammad received instructions from God after completion of revelation of the entire Quran, why are you not considering these instructions as God's revelations which in this case must have formed part of the Quran? You are only following the baseless tale of your forefathers that the Quran is fully preserved and that the present Quran order was made by Muhammad as instructed by God.

I know that the Quran was rearranged different from the sequence it was revealed in by the following verses

16101 And if We exchange a revelation in place of another revelation; and God is more aware of what He is revealing; they say ?You are making this up!? Alas, most of them do not know.

16102 Say ?The Holy Spirit has brought it down from your Lord with the truth, so that those who believe will be strengthened, and as a guidance and good news for those who have submitted.?

Therefore, the answer to your question is yes, the verse regarding the arrangement itself was made part of the Quran.