Panentheism in Qur'an Alone Islam
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Yes I believe that, and Quran itself is the best example, Since Mohammed do not consider the Quran to be his, even though the words came from his mouth. Only those truly believe Panentheism can have such views. Sufi Islam is all about that and Mohammed one of the best Sufis.
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Not sure about Islam (the religion)..
Their God is located / sitting in the 7th heaven..
And their hero need to 'ascend' to the 7th heaven, riding a horse with wings, to talk and bargained with their God on how many times should they do their ritual each day..Actually I don't really care about Islam so much and feel no need to 'reconcile' it with anything..
But I'm sure that God a.k.a Allah in the Quran is being described as located here there everywhere..
"Wherever you turn there is the face of God, indeed God is all encompassing, all knowing"
(2115)Which inline with the description of God a.k.a YHVH in the Bible..
thus saith YHVH "The heaven is My throne, And the earth is the footstool of My feet What manner of house will ye build Me?"
(Isaiah 661)Quran, Gospel and Bible (and also Brahman in Veda, Tao in Taoism etc..) all teaches Panentheism..
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I was once explaining God and how God is said to be in Quran. The person said that's panatheism when I had no idea about it at that time. I think majority of Muslims think Panetheism is wrong, but I also don't think universe is God. God is everywhere as it is says in Qur'an.
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Peace, Jafar.
Most of the Traditional Muslims I've met throughout my life, other than the most strict of Salaafis, tend to view ALLAH as being omnipresent, insisting that He both permeates every aspect of the Universe and transcends it. That, by definition, is panentheism. This belief is widespread among the Muslims I know, from Sunni and Shi'a Muslims to those of the Ahmadiyya Community. Very few of them view God as sitting atop a literal "arsh"/throne (which many interpret as a 'postion of authority' in a distant "seventh heaven".
Which inline with the description of God a.k.a YHVH in the Bible..
thus saith YHVH "The heaven is My throne, And the earth is the footstool of My feet What manner of house will ye build Me?"
(Isaiah 661)Quran, Gospel and Bible (and also Brahman in Veda, Tao in Taoism etc..) all teaches Panentheism..
This actually isn't completely true. To the contrary, that's actually the case with all of the listed 'scriptures' other than the Bible! The earliest notions of God, as depicted in the Torah, are completely anthropomorphic, not panentheistic. The Biblical YHVH, especially according to the Torah, is a physical (or 'super-physical' being who walks the Earth like a man, talks to humans, eats, sleeps (or rests), touches people, smells things, etc. According to the Bible, Moses (e.g. Moshe) even had to travel up a mountain in order to meet with God, who descended to the top of this mountain to talk to his prophet
And Adonai (YHVH) descended on Mount Sinai, on top of the mountain, and Adonai (YHVH) called Moshe up to the top of the mountain. And Moshe went up. (Exodus 1920)
Commentary on this passage, given by Rashi, says the following
The Lord descended upon Mount Sinai I may think that He actually descended upon it. Therefore, Scripture says ?You have seen that from the heavens I have spoken with you? (Exod. 2019). This teaches that He bent down the upper heavens and the lower heavens and spread them upon the mountain like a spread on a bed, and the Throne of Glory descended upon them . ?
Again, the early students of the Torah (and the Biblical deity in general) undoubtedly viewed Him as being anthropomorphic. Panentheism, although popular now among many Bible-enthusiasts, was never taught in the actual Biblical text. According to the Bible, God is a specific person in a very specific (although often unknown) location. The passage you posted from Isaiah 661 further asserts this, based on the above-mentioned context, and that verse isn't being figurative at all - it's literally saying that God's "home" is in the sky and that the Earth is literally His 'footstool'. In fact, the context in which He's speaking in Isaiah 661 can even be relayed a different way 'I don't need your temple. I already have a home, and it's in heaven. The entire Earth is my footstool, so what good is your temple (e.g. which is inside the Earth) to me?'
Ultimately, the Bible, and consequently the earliest Christians, did not depict God as being panentheistic at all. Everyone perceived God as being a physical, anthropomorphic figure. And, of course, the evidence used to substantiate that belief was the Bible itself. This is the opposite of the Qur'aanic depiction of ALLAH (God), which totters between providing explicit panentheistic notions about God and ambiguous statements concerning His nature.
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace, Jafar.
Most of the Traditional Muslims I've met throughout my life, other than the most strict of Salaafis, tend to view ALLAH as being omnipresent, insisting that He both permeates every aspect of the Universe and transcends it. That, by definition, is panentheism. This belief is widespread among the Muslims I know, from Sunni and Shi'a Muslims to those of the Ahmadiyya Community. Very few of them view God as sitting atop a literal "arsh"/throne (which many interpret as a 'postion of authority' in a distant "seventh heaven".
This actually isn't completely true. To the contrary, that's actually the case with all of the listed 'scriptures' other than the Bible! The earliest notions of God, as depicted in the Torah, are completely anthropomorphic, not panentheistic. The Biblical YHVH, especially according to the Torah, is a physical (or 'super-physical' being who walks the Earth like a man, talks to humans, eats, sleeps (or rests), touches people, smells things, etc. According to the Bible, Moses (e.g. Moshe) even had to travel up a mountain in order to meet with God, who descended to the top of this mountain to talk to his prophet
And Adonai (YHVH) descended on Mount Sinai, on top of the mountain, and Adonai (YHVH) called Moshe up to the top of the mountain. And Moshe went up. (Exodus 1920)
Commentary on this passage, given by Rashi, says the following
The Lord descended upon Mount Sinai I may think that He actually descended upon it. Therefore, Scripture says ?You have seen that from the heavens I have spoken with you? (Exod. 2019). This teaches that He bent down the upper heavens and the lower heavens and spread them upon the mountain like a spread on a bed, and the Throne of Glory descended upon them . ?
Again, the early students of the Torah (and the Biblical deity in general) undoubtedly viewed Him as being anthropomorphic. Panentheism, although popular now among many Bible-enthusiasts, was never taught in the actual Biblical text. According to the Bible, God is a specific person in a very specific (although often unknown) location. The passage you posted from Isaiah 661 further asserts this, based on the above-mentioned context, and that verse isn't being figurative at all - it's literally saying that God's "home" is in the sky and that the Earth is literally His 'footstool'. In fact, the context in which He's speaking in Isaiah 661 can even be relayed a different way 'I don't need your temple. I already have a home, and it's in heaven. The entire Earth is my footstool, so what good is your temple (e.g. which is inside the Earth) to me?'
Ultimately, the Bible, and consequently the earliest Christians, did not depict God as being panentheistic at all. Everyone perceived God as being a physical, anthropomorphic figure. And, of course, the evidence used to substantiate that belief was the Bible itself. This is the opposite of the Qur'aanic depiction of ALLAH (God), which totters between providing explicit panentheistic notions about God and ambiguous statements concerning His nature.
Peace,
Ahmad
Both of us contain some error in our statement.. Bible is a bundle of books..
It should be
- The Torah bundle contains "God depicted as Human" description.. (He eats and drinks, wondering where Adam is, got pissed off, jumped out from a box to attack the Philistines etc...)
- The Nevim bundle (e.g. book of Isaiah, Jeremiah et al) contains the notion of "God Here There Everywhere" a.k.a Panentheism.. And within the Nevim bundle there's a description that the scribes has written lies about God.
- Majority part of the book within the Gospel bundle support Panentheism.
- Writings of "Early Christian Father" contains the notion of Panentheism. (God a.k.a The Father is here there everywhere, Kingdom of Heaven is here there everywhere, He 'sees and hear' from all angle etc..)
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I was once explaining God and how God is said to be in Quran. The person said that's panatheism when I had no idea about it at that time. I think majority of Muslims think Panetheism is wrong, but I also don't think universe is God. God is everywhere as it is says in Qur'an.
The problem is in the confusion between pantheism and panentheism. The pronunciation makes them look interchangeable. So when we say Panentheism, some people end up thinking we are talking about pantheism. Quran does have things about it. But when humans try to explain everything using their own philosophy, things start to look murky. And of course, we have Mr Pan, the devil from Greece. Because of his followers, it is difficult to get to the real thing. I would just depend on Allah's Quran.
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Peace, Jafar.
Both of us contain some error in our statement.. Bible is a bundle of books..
It should be
- The Torah bundle contains "God depicted as Human" description.. (He eats and drinks, wondering where Adam is, got pissed off, jumped out from a box to attack the Philistines etc...)
- The Nevim bundle (e.g. book of Isaiah, Jeremiah et al) contains the notion of "God Here There Everywhere" a.k.a Panentheism.. And within the Nevim bundle there's a description that the scribes has written lies about God.
- Majority part of the book within the Gospel bundle support Panentheism.
- Writings of "Early Christian Father" contains the notion of Panentheism. (God a.k.a The Father is here there everywhere, Kingdom of Heaven is here there everywhere, He 'sees and hear' from all angle etc..)
Pardon the late reply, sir... I agree with you on some of your points, and I think a lot of it depends on the context of the passage(s) in question. The Torah depicts God as an anthropomorphic figure. The Nevi'im, for the most part, cosigns the Torah, depicting God in a similar fashion. However, it presents Him as being an anthropomorphic figure Who is no longer restricted to being a 'national' deity among the Israelites, for the most part at least; rather, He's often presented as being a Universal anthropomorphic "father" figure Who lives outside of the Earth, e.g. 'heaven'. And then, of course, the Ketuvim, presents God in a similar manner.
Peace,
Ahmad