Samia's worst nightmare from a Sista!
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The Torah is authoritative according to the Quran. I actually posted this to solve the problem with MMA.
It is the concubines.
As far as I am aware, Deutoronomy and Leviticus, etc. are man-made books, but somehow related to the teachings of Moses and Abraham, etc. although perhaps not. Therefore I do not take those books as an authority.
What do you say to the following explanation?
Edip-Layth - End Note 2 (43)
Polygamy is allowed only to provide psychological, social and economic support for widows with orphans (See 4127). Muhammad's practice of polygamy must have been in accordance with the condition to serve an important social service. Sure, physical attraction of widows might be one of the factors for marriage and there is nothing wrong with that. Those who could afford practicing polygamy, mentally and financially, should try hard to treat them equally, though 4129 expresses the practical impossibly of attaining that ideal. Additionally, the consent of the first wife is necessary; otherwise, she can always seek divorce. It is clear that polygamy is not an ideal form of marriage and an unusual practice allowed for difficult times, such as a dramatic reduction in the male population during wartime. The age gap between marrying men and women creates a surplus of women who will never be able to find a monogamous partner. By a strict prohibition on polygamy, millions of young women are deprived from having a legitimate relationship with men. The only hope for millions of young girls is to get married with already divorced men, perhaps with kids, or to have a relationship born out of promiscuous sexual practices. The Western world does not prohibit polygamy since many males have sexual relationships with more than one woman at the same time. The only thing that modern societies do is deprive those women from the protection of law; they are there to be used, disposed of and recycled by men! The hypocrisy in the modern attitude becomes clear when homosexuality is defended on the pretext of "consenting adults," but the same standards are not afforded to the polygamists. The conditional permission for polygamy is for the psychological and financial protection of children and their widow mothers, in cases of war or natural disaster. Polygamy, according to the Old Testament, started with the seventh generation after Cain and continued as a common practice in the patriarchal age together with having concubines (Genesis 419; 62; 161-4; 2221-24; 288-9; 2923-30, etc.). However, the Old Testament also disapproves of polygamy (Deuteronomy 1717). The Old Testament contains numerous exaggerated stories. One is about the number of Solomon's wives. The roundness of the numbers of wives and concubines and their total, the three numbers being perfectly round, indicate an intentional exaggeration. "And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines and his wives turned away his heart?? (1 Kings 113). It is highly plausible that the word "hundred" was inserted in the text by later scribes to damage the reputation of Solomon for some political agenda. The following verses depict Solomon as an evil person and idolater. The Quran neither accuses Solomon of indulging in a hedonistic sexual life nor of associating partners with God. Ironically, modern Christians are now bashing Solomon for not sticking to monogamy. To be politically correct, modern Christians do not hesitate to condemn the common practice of polygamy among Jews and their prophets. Contrary to the Quran, which exhorts muslims to help widows, the misogynistic Rabbinical teachings inserted into the Old Testament put them in the category of harlots, and finds them unworthy of marriage by the privileged class priests (Leviticus 2114). The expression Ma malakat aymanukum has been translated by most translations as "whom your right hands posses" or "captives" or "concubines." We translated this and similar expressions found in 43,24,25,36; 1671; 236; 2431,33,58; 3028; 3350,52,55; and 7030, as "those with whom you have contractual rights." These were the wives of the enemy combatants who were persecuted because they acknowledged the message of Islam and sought asylum at the Muslim community (6010). Since they did not get through a normal divorce process, an exceptional contract allows them to marry muslims as free women. Marrying them could create some social, economic and personal complications for the husband. They have nothing to do with IBaD (slaves), as sectarian translations and commentaries state. As we will learn, the Quran categorically rejects slavery and considers it to be the greatest sin (See 379; 425,92; 589; 867; 2432-33; 583; 9013; 2286; 1239-42; 7924). The practice of slavery was justified and resurrected to a certain extent via the influence of Jewish and Christian scholars, as well as fabricated hadith and sharia laws, decades after Muhammad's departure. It is ironic that Jews who suffered the most from slavery and were saved by God through the leadership of Moses (Exodus 113-14), later justified enslaving other people, including selling one's own daughter, and inserted that practice into their holy books (Exodus 217-8; 2121-22; 26-27; Leviticus 2544-46; Joshua 96-27). Though Jesus never condoned slavery, St. Paul, the founder of modern Christianity, once asked the masters to treat their slaves nicely (Colossians 322), and asked the slaves to be "submissive to your masters with all fear" (1 Peter 218; Ephesians 65; 1 Timothy 62; Colossians 322; Titus 29) justifying the Marxist maxim, "Religion is the opium of masses." The use of religion by the privileged class to enslave or exploit people is vividly depicted by the South African archbishop Desmond Tutu "When the missionaries came to Africa, they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'let us close our eyes and pray'. When we opened them, we had the Bible, and they had the land." The word YaMYN means "right hand" or metaphorically "right," "power" or "control." However, its plural form aYMaN is consistently mentioned in the Quran to mean not "right hands" but to mean "oaths" or "promises," implying the mutual nature of the relationship (See 433 589; 912; 1691- 94; 2224-225; 3028; 662; 553; 6109). This unique Quranic usage is similar to the semantic difference between the singular and plural forms of the word Ayat (signs) (see 2106). The expression in question, thus could be translated as "those whom your oaths/contracts have rights over" or "those whom you hold rights through your contracts," or by reading aYMaN (oaths/contracts) as an object rather than a subject, "those who hold/possess your contracts." The marriage declaration is a mutual partnership between two sexes and is formed by participation of family members. A married woman cannot marry another man without getting divorced from her husband. However, if a woman escapes and joins muslims while her husband stayed behind participating in a war against muslims, she may marry a Muslim man without actually getting divorced from her combatant husband; she will legally be considered a divorcee (6010). Since this contract is different from the normal marriage contract, this special relationship is described in different words. The same is valid for a man whose wife allies with the hostile enemy. See 2431 and 3355. Those who work for another person according to employment contracts are also referred to with the same expression. See 1671; 3028. Also, see 425,36; 236; 2458; 3350; 3352; 7030. The Quran does not demand those who lived together based on a mutual promise (AYMaN) during the days of ignorance, without a marriage contract, to get divorced. Similarly, it does not want those who married two sisters before accepting islam to be a way of life (423). This tolerance does not encourage living together without marriage. It only does not want to incur further damage to the family structure and does not want to create hurdles for those who wish to live according to the principles of islam. -
MMA are female slaves. And slavery is allowed in the Quran
o o o o o o o o o
WHAT?!?! Are you kidding? Slavery is strongly discouraged in the Quran.
Charities shall go to the poor, the needy, the workers who collect them, the new converts, to free the slaves, to those burdened by sudden expenses, in the cause of GOD, and to the traveling alien. Such is GOD's commandment. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.
Did we not show him the two paths? He should choose the difficult path. Which one is the difficult path? The freeing of slaves.
Also read this article http//www.submission.org/islam/slavery.html
and the Torah
Not an authority for me.
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WHAT?!?! Are you kidding? Slavery is strongly discouraged in the Quran.
Charities shall go to the poor, the needy, the workers who collect them, the new converts, to free the slaves, to those burdened by sudden expenses, in the cause of GOD, and to the traveling alien. Such is GOD's commandment. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.
Did we not show him the two paths? He should choose the difficult path. Which one is the difficult path? The freeing of slaves.
Also read this article http//www.submission.org/islam/slavery.html
It is not freeing slaves, it is helping people in debt. Slavery is important or many people will starve!!!
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It is not freeing slaves, it is helping people in debt. Slavery is important or many people will starve!!!
Slavery is discouraged. Read the article. Read the Quran - we are to free salves.
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2178 O you who believe, equivalent execution in warfare has been decreed for you in the case of mass killings; the free for the free, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female. Whoever is forgiven anything by his brother, then it is to be followed with good deeds and kindness towards him; that is an alleviation from your Lord, and a mercy. Whoever transgresses after that, he will have a painful retribution.
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2178 O you who believe, equivalent execution in warfare has been decreed for you in the case of mass killings; the free for the free, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female. Whoever is forgiven anything by his brother, then it is to be followed with good deeds and kindness towards him; that is an alleviation from your Lord, and a mercy. Whoever transgresses after that, he will have a painful retribution.
Doesnt change that it is discouraged. Please read the article and you will understand. Salvery was a common practice in the barbaric Aabic culture of the 7th century. Therefore, an early prohibition would not have been very clever.
Slavery has been abolished step by step. NOWHERE does it say in the Quran to take slaves, except for prisoners of war, who have to be treated well and freed after war. -
Doesnt change that it is discouraged. Please read the article and you will understand. Salvery was a common practice in the barbaric Aabic culture of the 7th century. Therefore, an early prohibition would not have been very clever.
Slavery has been abolished step by step. NOWHERE does it say in the Quran to take slaves, except for prisoners of war, who have to be treated well and freed after war.So there is abrogation in the Quran!! You are TOAST man! D
Tell me a finalizing verse that forbids slavery. Clear cut prohibition not derivative undestanding.
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So there is abrogation in the Quran!! You are TOAST man! D
Tell me a finalizing verse that forbids slavery. Clear cut prohibition not derivative undestanding.
Where did I say that there is a prohibition? I said that it has been ABOLISHED STEP BY STEP.
Please read the article.Give me one verse from the Quran that tells us to take slaves in normal conditions (ie. not war).
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Where did I say that there is a prohibition? I said that it has been ABOLISHED STEP BY STEP.
Please read the article.Give me one verse from the Quran that tells us to take slaves in normal conditions (ie. not war).
Why do you have problems with slavery? It is important. It is like adopting a person.
I just quoted a verse that has the word slave in it as if it is the norm!
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Why do you have problems with slavery? It is important. It is like adopting a person.
I just quoted a verse that has the word slave in it as if it is the norm!
You are quoting communal laws which have nothing to do with the deen. The Koran does not seperate between the scriptures and equates them equally. There are so communal laws revealed in the Gospel yet the Koran still acknowledges it just like the others.
Read the Koran carefully
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But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah. yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith.
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It was We who revealed the law (to Moses) therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah.s will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah.s book, and they were witnesses thereto therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.
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We ordained therein for them "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.
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And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him We sent him the Gospel therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.
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Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.
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To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah. it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute
The Koran does not consider the comunal laws as religious laws. These are human laws that humans live by. They change as time goes by and circumstances change. Its part of human reality. The Israelites lived just like their pagan neighbours and these communal laws are identical to the communal laws as their pagan neighbours. If the Koran sees it your way it would not have asked the people of the Gospel to rule by the Gospel when the Gospel has no communal laws in it whatsoever. Jesus did not need them in his lifetime and so did Abraham or Noah or Lot or Job or Ishmael or Jospeh. Yet they are all equal in faith and message and the Koran sees the Gospel as complete and self sufficient . Get rid of this mind set and stop cherry picking from the OT. The OT has many different communal laws and not just the ones you laid out. Look at the story of David and Solomon and the other prophets in the OT and not just the first 5 books there.
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You are quoting communal laws which have nothing to do with the deen. The Koran does not seperate between the scriptures and equates them equally. There are so communal laws revealed in the Gospel yet the Koran still acknowledges it just like the others.
Read the Koran carefully
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But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah. yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith.
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It was We who revealed the law (to Moses) therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah.s will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah.s book, and they were witnesses thereto therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.
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We ordained therein for them "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.
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And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him We sent him the Gospel therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.
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Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.
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To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah. it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute
The Koran does not consider the comunal laws as religious laws. These are human laws that humans live by. They change as time goes by and circumstances change. Its part of human reality. The Israelites lived just like their pagan neighbours and these communal laws are identical to the communal laws as their pagan neighbours. If the Koran sees it your way it would not have asked the people of the Gospel to rule by the Gospel when the Gospel has no communal laws in it whatsoever. Jesus did not need them in his lifetime and so did Abraham or Noah or Lot or Job or Ishmael or Jospeh. Yet they are all equal in faith and message and the Koran sees the Gospel as complete and self sufficient . Get rid of this mind set and stop cherry picking from the OT. The OT has many different communal laws and not just the ones you laid out. Look at the story of David and Solomon and the other prophets in the OT and not just the first 5 books there.
Suppose you are a follower of the Gospel and there is a case of adultery...what will your judgement be???
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Suppose you are a follower of the Gospel and there is a case of adultery...what will your judgement be???
This question is irrelevant - we have the Quran. It seems as if the Quran is not enough for you.
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What will the 'people of the Gospel' do?
2885 Surely, the One who decreed the Quran to you will summon you to a predetermined appointment. Say, "My Lord is fully aware of who it is that brings the guidance, and who has gone astray."
2886 Nor did you expect this book to come your way; but this is a mercy from your Lord. Therefore, you shall not side with the rejecters.
2887 Nor shall you be diverted from God's signs/revelations, after they have come to you. Invite to your Lord, and do not be of those who set up partners.
565 If the people of the book only would have acknowledged and been aware/upholding Divine Laws, We would have cancelled for them their sins and admitted them to gardens of paradise.
566 If they had upheld the Torah, the Injeel, and what was sent down to them from their Lord, they would have been rewarded from above them and below their feet. From among them is a pious nation, but many of them commit evil.
Do you seriously think that the New Testament is the "Injeel"?! laugh
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2885 Surely, the One who decreed the Quran to you will summon you to a predetermined appointment. Say, "My Lord is fully aware of who it is that brings the guidance, and who has gone astray."
2886 Nor did you expect this book to come your way; but this is a mercy from your Lord. Therefore, you shall not side with the rejecters.
2887 Nor shall you be diverted from God's signs/revelations, after they have come to you. Invite to your Lord, and do not be of those who set up partners.
565 If the people of the book only would have acknowledged and been aware/upholding Divine Laws, We would have cancelled for them their sins and admitted them to gardens of paradise.
566 If they had upheld the Torah, the Injeel, and what was sent down to them from their Lord, they would have been rewarded from above them and below their feet. From among them is a pious nation, but many of them commit evil.
Do you seriously think that the New Testament is the "Injeel"?! laugh
yeah peace
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2885 Surely, the One who decreed the Quran to you will summon you to a predetermined appointment. Say, "My Lord is fully aware of who it is that brings the guidance, and who has gone astray."
2886 Nor did you expect this book to come your way; but this is a mercy from your Lord. Therefore, you shall not side with the rejecters.
2887 Nor shall you be diverted from God's signs/revelations, after they have come to you. Invite to your Lord, and do not be of those who set up partners.
565 If the people of the book only would have acknowledged and been aware/upholding Divine Laws, We would have cancelled for them their sins and admitted them to gardens of paradise.
566 If they had upheld the Torah, the Injeel, and what was sent down to them from their Lord, they would have been rewarded from above them and below their feet. From among them is a pious nation, but many of them commit evil.
Do you seriously think that the New Testament is the "Injeel"?! laugh
I dont. Bigmo does.
But the problem if its not what the hell is it?
Anyway, that is going off-topic.
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Peace,
This question is irrelevant - we have the Quran. It seems as if the Quran is not enough for you.
Maybe I'm missing (or misunderstanding) something... You believe that the Torah is "done away with" since the Qur'aan has been revealed? This is the same idea the Christians fabricated, when they said that Jesus did away with the Torah... There's nothing in the Qur'aan that alleges that the Torah is not the true word of G-d, there's nothing that says that G-d's people should discard the Torah, and there's nothing that says that we shouldn't follow it's guidance. In fact, it says the opposite; Jews are still expected to abide by the laws of Torah, the Nazarenes are still expected to follow the guidance of the Enjeel, and the followers of Muhammad (among the gentile nations) are expected to follow the doctrines of the Qur'aan...
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Peace Ahmad
Peace,
Maybe I'm missing (or misunderstanding) something... You believe that the Torah is "done away with" since the Qur'aan has been revealed? This is the same idea the Christians fabricated, when they said that Jesus did away with the Torah... There's nothing in the Qur'aan that alleges that the Torah is not the true word of G-d, there's nothing that says that G-d's people should discard the Torah, and there's nothing that says that we shouldn't follow it's guidance. In fact, it says the opposite; Jews are still expected to abide by the laws of Torah, the Nazarenes are still expected to follow the guidance of the Enjeel, and the followers of Muhammad (among the gentile nations) are expected to follow the doctrines of the Qur'aan...
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Rami has quoted many things from the OT (ie. Deuteronomy, Leviticus, etc.)
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297 Say, "Anyone who opposes Gabriel should know that he has brought down this (Quran) into your heart, in accordance with GOD's will, confirming previous scriptures, and providing guidance and good news for the believers."
548 Then we revealed to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming previous scriptures, and superseding them. You shall rule among them in accordance with GOD's revelations, and do not follow their wishes if they differ from the truth that came to you. For each of you, we have decreed laws and different rites. Had GOD willed, He could have made you one congregation. But He thus puts you to the test through the revelations He has given each of you. You shall compete in righteousness. To GOD is your final destiny - all of you - then He will inform you of everything you had disputed.
- As you might know, the Bible is a man-made book composed out of the man-made OT and the man-made NT, although they might be/are somewhat related to the teachings of the previous messengers. So the Bible is NOT the Injeel. So what are they expected to follow?! The Torah as we know it today might also have been altered and it probably was. Although it is not entirely man-made/has a lot of it's original contents, although we cant prove it.
Please read the following
565 If the people of the book only would have acknowledged and been aware, We would have cancelled for them their sins and admitted them to gardens of paradise.
566 If they had upheld the Torah, the Injeel, and what was sent down to them from their Lord, they would have been rewarded from above them and below their feet. From among them is a pious nation, but many of them commit evil.
568 Say, "O people of the book, you are not upon anything until you uphold the Torah and the Injeel and what was sent down to you from your Lord." For many of them, what was sent down to you from your Lord will only increase them in transgression and rejection. So do not feel sorry for the ingrates.
569 "Those who acknowledge, those who are Jewish, those who are the followers of other religions, and the Christians -Whoever acknowledges God and the Last day and does good works, then they will have nothing to fear nor will they grieve."
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