What brought me here?
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Peace be upon my brothers and sisters. I have been a seeker since an early age. I was raised a Roman Catholic, but I have rejected the idolotry within that church. I also reject that a man can be an intermediary between God and me. I truly believe that God is as close to me as each breath that I take. It is God that sustains me. I am currently a Presbyterian. It is my strong belief that there is One God. As a Christian, without God, Jesus would not have been able to perform his mighty deeds. Jesus even refers to God as 'our God,' on many occasions. He is also called 'the Son of Man' on multiple occasions in the Gospels. I can understand Islam's view that Jesus was a great prophet, but not God the Son, within the trinity.
Islam has been a religion that I have been drawn towards for many years. However, the rituals and prostrations have been confusing and a barrier to me. It is my sincere belief that only God can cleanse me. I do not believe that following rituals bring us any closer to God. The one aspect of al Quran that vexes me is the fact that when the Archangel Jibreel provides the recitation to the Prophet, he refers to 'us' and 'we' and 'our' when referring to God, or the message given to Muhammed. I never understood this plural tense, given that Islam is the strictest of monotheistic religions. Islam condemns setting up partners with God. But how is it that Jibreel makes reference to a plurality? Is he referring to the angels?
Peace be upon you,
From Rashad Khalifa's appendix "God's Usage of the Plural Tense"
In the English speaking world, where the trinity doctrine is prevalent, some people are intrigued by God's usage of the plural tense in the Quran. The overwhelming message of the Quran, where there is absolutely no compromise is that "GOD IS ONE" (2133, 2163; 4171 573; 619; 931; 1239; 1316; 1448, 1452; 1622, 1651; 18110; 21108; 2234; 374; 3865; 394; 4016; 416; 1121).
Whenever the first person plural form is used by the Almighty, it invariably indicates participation of other entities, such as the angels. For example, the revelation of this Quran involved participation of the angel Gabriel and the prophet Muhammad. Hence the use of the plural form in 159
"We revealed this scripture, and we will preserve it."
The plural form here simply reflects the fact that the angel Gabriel and the prophet Muhammad participated in the processof delivering the Quran.
Another example has to do with blowing the breath of life into Adam and Jesus. The creation of Adam took place in heaven and God directly blew into him the breath of life. Thus, the first person singular form is consistently used
"I blew into Adam from My spirit" (1529, 3872).
The creation of Jesus, on the other hand, took place on earth,and Gabriel carried God's "word" to Mary. The plural form is consistently used when referring to the creation of Jesus (2191, 6612).
When God spoke to Moses directly, without the mediation of angels, we see that God is speaking exclusively in the singular tense
"I am God. There is no other god besides Me. You shall worship Me alone, and observe the regular contact prayers (Salat) to commemorate Me." (2012-14).
Whenever the worship of God is mentioned, the singular tense is used (5156).
Another thing I heard was that the "we" is used because it is the royal "we".
Just as a side note your pic is putting Muhammad at the same level as God/next to God.
peace
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Thank you my friend! I took note about my picture too!
I will review these verses that you showed me.
My ideas about Jesus' divinity are beginning to be challenged. I am reading the Gospels with a more discerning mind. I must agree with what a Rev. John had stated here on the forum. In the gospels Jesus would retire and pray to God. The question that has been poignant for me is that if Jesus was divine, would he need to pray to himself, or to ask God to take the cup of suffering away if it was God's will? Could the death and ressurection of Jesus Christ be a sign for what is to come in the future for beleivers? Certainly such a scenario was not out of the realm of what God could accomplish through Jesus Christ, because God can do all things. The signs that Jesus Christ accomplished were through God's intervention. The concretely showed a stubborn people that God loves them, and yet they demanded more signs from Jesus!
In the Islamic perspective, I know that Jesus is a very important prophet. Never once in the Gospels did Jesus refer to himself as God. When he was called the King of the Jews he did not ascent to that title. he would just retort, "So you say." While he is called 'son of God,' this might just refer to God's expression of pleasure with him. In fact Jesus reinforced that God is 'One.' The Lord's Prayer made no reference to Jesus or the Holy Spirit. Furthermore Jesus' relationship with God shows us that God considers us His children. The Nicene Creed was not created until 325 C.E. Constantine, a Roman Emperor, was integral in its creation. His faith in 'the Way' was not existent by some accounts. He oversaw the setup of the Christian religion as a state religion of Rome. This consolidated power by decreasing religious unrest. Paganism was influenced through the integration of Christianity into Rome. The setup of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in one God-head was established here. Contextually, there is a pagan influence here in the Christian faith. The pantheon of Roman Gods and Goddesses were changed into a pantheon of saints to whom one could pray for intercession. In this sense, the Christian faith had strayed far from the message of Jesus. My eyes are opening to this more and more. It makes total sense, within this context, why God revealed His final message to Muhammed through Jibreel. I am having an 'Ah-ha!' moment.
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Thank you my friend! I took note about my picture too!
I will review these verses that you showed me.
My ideas about Jesus' divinity are beginning to be challenged. I am reading the Gospels with a more discerning mind. I must agree with what a Rev. John had stated here on the forum. In the gospels Jesus would retire and pray to God. The question that has been poignant for me is that if Jesus was divine, would he need to pray to himself, or to ask God to take the cup of suffering away if it was God's will? In the Islamic perspective, I know that Jesus is a very important prophet. Never once in the Gospels did Jesus refer to himself as God. While he is called 'son of God,' this might just refer to God's expression of pleasure with him. In fact Jesus reinforced that God is 'One.' The Lord's Prayer made no reference to him or the Holy Spirit. Furthermore Jesus' relationship with God shows us that God considers us His children. The Nicene Creed was not created until 325 C.E. Constantine, a Roman Emperor was integral in its creation. The setup of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in one God-head was established here. Contextually, there most likely is a pagan influence here in the Christian faith.
bravo Well done, you show a great understanding. It was also in Nicene that Mary suddenly became a virgin because many of the local pagan religions worshiped, or held in high esteem, virgins. Before that time there was no mention of Mary being a virgin or of Jesus being God's "only begotten son".
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Thank you my friend! I took note about my picture too!
I will review these verses that you showed me.
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bravo Well done, you show a great understanding. It was also in Nicene that Mary suddenly became a virgin because many of the local pagan religions worshiped, or held in high esteem, virgins. Before that time there was no mention of Mary being a virgin or of Jesus being God's "only begotten son".
Peace
(from my PPP)
Things that happened after the Council of Nicea and other smaller councils
The trinity was indoctrinated into Christianity/became part of mainstream Christianity.
Sabbath was abrogated. Sunday became the day of worship. - Sunday was the Pagan Roman day of worship. Jesus and his true followers kept the Sabbath Holy.Christmas became a holiday.
From the biblical description, most historians believe that his birth probably occurred in September, approximately six months after Passover. One thing they agree on is that it is very unlikely that Jesus was born in December, since the Bible records shepherds tending their sheep in the fields on that night. This is quite unlikely to have happened during a cold Judean winter.
Historians say that it comes from the Roman holiday Saturnalia, honoring the Roman God Saturn on the 25th of December.Jesus became the "begotten son of God".
Jesus and his mother were worshipped.
Examples of ancient trinities
Nimrod (father), Semiramis (mother) and Tammuz (son, pagan Messiah of Babylon“. Three-in-one sungod. (Nimrod mentioned in book of Genesis).
Hindu trinity Brahma, the creator; Vishnu, the preserver and Shiva the destroyer.
Hindu God incarnate Krishna (of Vishnu).Egyptian trinity Isis, Horus, Seth
From the Bible
Jesus answered a teacher of law who asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?" as "The most important one is this 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' (Mark 1228-30)
As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good except God alone." (Mark 1017-1
In verse John 1028-30, talking about his followers as his sheep, he states "...Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father who gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one.
"I pray not only for these, but also for those who will believe on Me through their word. May they all be one, Father, just as You are in Me and I in You, so that they may be one in Us, in order that the world may believe that You sent Me! I gave them the glory that You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are One; I in them and You in Me, so that they may be made completely one, in order that the world may know that You have sent Me and that You love them as You love Me. (Gospel of John, chapter 17, verse 21-23)You might also want to look at this
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Peace
(from my PPP)
Things that happened after the Council of Nicea and other smaller councils
The trinity was indoctrinated into Christianity/became part of ?mainstream Christianity?.
Sabbath was abrogated. Sunday became the day of worship.
Christmas became a holiday.
?From the biblical description, most historians believe that his birth probably occurred in September, approximately six months after Passover. One thing they agree on is that it is very unlikely that Jesus was born in December, since the Bible records shepherds tending their sheep in the fields on that night. This is quite unlikely to have happened during a cold Judean winter.?
Historians say that it comes from the Roman holiday Saturnalia, honoring the Roman God ?Saturn? on the 25th of December.Jesus became the "begotten son of God".
Jesus and his mother were worshipped.
Examples of ancient trinities
Nimrod (father), Semiramis (mother) and Tammuz (son, ?pagan Messiah of Babylon?). Three-in-one sungod. (Nimrod mentioned in book of Genesis).
Hindu trinity Brahma, the creator; Vishnu, the preserver and Shiva the destroyer.
Hindu ?God incarnate? Krishna (of Vishnu).Egyptian trinity Isis, Horus, Seth
You might also want to look at this
All this is very true. It is sometime difficult to cut through the "add-ins" to get to the truth.
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Peace
(from my PPP)
Things that happened after the Council of Nicea and other smaller councils
The trinity was indoctrinated into Christianity/became part of ?mainstream Christianity?.
Sabbath was abrogated. Sunday became the day of worship. - Sunday was the Pagan Roman day of worship. Jesus and his true followers kept the Sabbath Holy.Christmas became a holiday.
?From the biblical description, most historians believe that his birth probably occurred in September, approximately six months after Passover. One thing they agree on is that it is very unlikely that Jesus was born in December, since the Bible records shepherds tending their sheep in the fields on that night. This is quite unlikely to have happened during a cold Judean winter.?
Historians say that it comes from the Roman holiday Saturnalia, honoring the Roman God ?Saturn? on the 25th of December.Jesus became the "begotten son of God".
Jesus and his mother were worshipped.
Examples of ancient trinities
Nimrod (father), Semiramis (mother) and Tammuz (son, ?pagan Messiah of Babylon?). Three-in-one sungod. (Nimrod mentioned in book of Genesis).
Hindu trinity Brahma, the creator; Vishnu, the preserver and Shiva the destroyer.
Hindu ?God incarnate? Krishna (of Vishnu).Egyptian trinity Isis, Horus, Seth
From the Bible
Jesus answered a teacher of law who asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?" as "The most important one is this 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' (Mark 1228-30)
As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good except God alone." (Mark 1017-1
In verse John 1028-30, talking about his followers as his sheep, he states "...Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father who gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one.?
"I pray not only for these, but also for those who will believe on Me through their word. May they all be one, Father, just as You are in Me and I in You, so that they may be one in Us, in order that the world may believe that You sent Me! I gave them the glory that You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are One; I in them and You in Me, so that they may be made completely one, in order that the world may know that You have sent Me and that You love them as You love Me. (Gospel of John, chapter 17, verse 21-23)You might also want to look at this
The interpretation of God and I are one could have gone awry. Perhaps this means that God is working through Jesus, thus they are one? Jesus is doing Gods' will, and God is working through Jesus, so this makes Jesus and God at 'one?' Because in the same gospel, Jesus says nobody is above God.
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The interpretation of God and I are one could have gone awry. Perhaps this means that God is working through Jesus, thus they are one? Jesus is doing Gods' will, and God is workign through Jesus, so this makes Jesus and God at 'one?' Because in the same gospel, Jesus says nobody is above God.
The way I see it is, Jesus was fully submitting to God and God's will was in Jesus as it is in us. Also God is our creator, So in that respect Jesus and God are one just as We and God are one.
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The way I see it is, Jesus was fully submitting to God and God's will was in Jesus as it is in us. Also God is our creator, So in that respect Jesus and God are one just as We and God are one.
This makes sense.
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The interpretation of God and I are one could have gone awry. Perhaps this means that God is working through Jesus, thus they are one? Jesus is doing Gods' will, and God is working through Jesus, so this makes Jesus and God at 'one?' Because in the same gospel, Jesus says nobody is above God.
Please read the verses in context. i have underlined the important bits. Also, you might want to watch this video which explains the verses in detail.
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Please read the verses in context. i have underlined the important bits. Also, you might want to watch this video which explains the verses in detail.
Thank you. I think more and more that I am a muslim.
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Thank you. I think more and more that I am a muslim.
I think you are already one.
262 Surely those who acknowledge, and those who are Jewish, and the Christians, and those who follow other religions, any one of them who acknowledge God and the Last day, and do reform, they will have their reward with their Lord, with no fear over them, nor will they grieve.
3122 Those who submit completely to God, while leading a righteous life, have gotten hold of the strongest bond. To God all matters will return.
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The way I see it is, Jesus was fully submitting to God and God's will was in Jesus as it is in us. Also God is our creator, So in that respect Jesus and God are one just as We and God are one.
bravo yay
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Hello John,
I have a question about your signature phrase i.e. "May God always be with you?". What do you mean by this?
Anwar Azim
It is quite simple really. My concept of hell is not a place or fiery pit or anything like that. My concept of hell is the absents of God and the punishment of hell is God sending you away from him for a period of time until you "see the error of your ways and apologise to him". Therefore by saying "May God always be with you" is praying that it never happens to you.
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peace John,
Welcome to the forum. Sorry for the belated reply.
What you said in your original post is in line with The Quran, although you probably already knew that. The only things I wanted to mention were the following
- I do not believe in hell. If God is our father, then what father would condemn his children to hell Eternal damnation, etc.?
There are various views on this, for those who follow The Quran. I have not studied it personally, but some views are "hell" is finite, so whilst one can say a person will remain in "hell" forever, that depends on whether "hell" is eternal. You may wish to read some of the notes in the Reformist Quran Translation.
- If I do not believe in hell, then I cannot justify believing in the devil as anything other than just a being that tests our beliefs.
From my studies, The Quran strongly implies there is a side to us that can whisper/plant evil/negative thoughts within us. So, "the devil" as you say is not necessarily an external entity, it may well be an internal component. There has been some discussion of this in this forum.
Lastly, I wanted to ask you a question. Where I live, there are many "Christians" and I have found that it is extremely rare that someone knows that The Quran or islam is accepting of Abraham, Moses, Jesus etc, their message etc (albeit, when I say accepting, I mean of their message of monotheism). From your experience, how many "Christians" would you say are aware of the Quranic viewpoint on this issue? If you say very few, is it just due to lack of knowledge or is what "Christian" institutions teach about The Quran or islam, neglect this or pay very little attention to this point? To me, this is possibly the most important point to bring to their attention.
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peace John,
Welcome to the forum. Sorry for the belated reply.
What you said in your original post is in line with The Quran, although you probably already knew that. The only things I wanted to mention were the following
There are various views on this, for those who follow The Quran. I have not studied it personally, but some views are "hell" is finite, so whilst one can say a person will remain in "hell" forever, that depends on whether "hell" is eternal. You may wish to read some of the notes in the Reformist Quran Translation.
From my studies, The Quran strongly implies there is a side to us that can whisper/plant evil/negative thoughts within us. So, "the devil" as you say is not necessarily an external entity, it may well be an internal component. There has been some discussion of this in this forum.
Lastly, I wanted to ask you a question. Where I live, there are many "Christians" and I have found that it is extremely rare that someone knows that The Quran or islam is accepting of Abraham, Moses, Jesus etc, their message etc (albeit, when I say accepting, I mean of their message of monotheism). From your experience, how many "Christians" would you say are aware of the Quranic viewpoint on this issue? If you say very few, is it just due to lack of knowledge or is what "Christian" institutions teach about The Quran or islam, neglect this or pay very little attention to this point? To me, this is possibly the most important point to bring to their attention.
It is true that the vast majority of Christians have no concept whatsoever of the "true" beliefs of Islam or the Quran. Most of them (including the clergy) just hear stories about it's content and think that the Hadiths and the Quran are one and the same. Therefore they view it as a book that tells Muslims to kill Christians. Many also believe that Allah is a different god from God. I have been trying for years to educate Christians about this major mistake. It is getting better, there are now more and more Christians that are opening their eyes to the sameness of all three Abrahamic religions.
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I did think that was the case.
Keep up the good work. And if you are unaware of this site, feel free to check it out and utilise its content
www.misconceptions-about-islam.com
It is only in its proofreading/testing phase at the moment, but will hopefully be officially launched later this year.
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I did think that was the case.
Keep up the good work. And if you are unaware of this site, feel free to check it out and utilise its content
www.misconceptions-about-islam.com
It is only in its proofreading/testing phase at the moment, but will hopefully be officially launched later this year.
Thank you, that will be very useful to me. bravo
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It is quite simple really. My concept of hell is not a place or fiery pit or anything like that. My concept of hell is the absents of God and the punishment of hell is God sending you away from him for a period of time until you "see the error of your ways and apologise to him". Therefore by saying "May God always be with you" is praying that it never happens to you.
rotfl Many people are confused about why I still call myself a Christian.
