Isa ibn Maryam
-
I have struggled with this problem for many years. I tend to accept that "Virgin" was a mistranslation and an adaption just to attract the virgin worshiping pagans into Christianity. How the story arrived in the Quran baffles me.
The virgin thing is correct, HOWEVER you are partially right, the mother and son worshipping was already present.
http//calvaryadvisor.org/resources/_wsb_485x690_semichld.jpg
and no, Mary is not the one on the top left laugh
Please read
1920 She (Mary) said, "How can I have a son when no human has touched me, nor do I desire such?"
359 The example of Jesus with God is similar to that of Adam; He created him from dust, then He said to him, "Be," and he became.
360 The truth is from your Lord; so do not be of those who are doubtful.
361 Whoever debates with you in this after the knowledge has come to you, then say, "Let us call our children and your children, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves, then, let us call out, and we shall make God's curse upon the liars."
362 This is the narration of truth, there is no god but God; and God is the Noble, the Wise.
363 If they turn away, then God is aware of the corruptors.
Peace
-
I have struggled with this problem for many years. I tend to accept that "Virgin" was a mistranslation and an adaption just to attract the virgin worshiping pagans into Christianity. How the story arrived in the Quran baffles me.
You are so right. Jews can successfully refute the Quran by refuting the Messianship of Jesus and the Virgin Birth.
Actually the idea of Jewish Messiah is a myth and a misunderstanding of the Hebrew texts. The idea of an eschatological Messiah is a made up idea.
May God guides us to what is right.
-
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598621.msg209688;topicseen#msg209688
-
You are so right. Jews can successfully refute the Quran by refuting the Messianship of Jesus and the Virgin Birth.
Actually the idea of Jewish Messiah is a myth and a misunderstanding of the Hebrew texts. The idea of an eschatological Messiah is a made up idea.
May God guides us to what is right.
It is the main stumbling block between the 3 religions, that of Jesus being divine. If we could all get around that and see Jesus for what he was, a prophet, then maybe, just maybe, we could all come together
-
It is the main stumbling block between the 3 religions, that of Jesus being divine. If we could all get around that and see Jesus for what he was, a prophet, then maybe, just maybe, we could all come together
No its not his divinity only but him being the Messiah and the Virgin Birth.
-
Well in Christianity they all go together.
Yeah. The problem is that the Quran calls Jesus 'The Messiah'. Any serious reader of the Tanakh will say that this is a pure joke. It should have said that Jesus is a messiah 'anointed'. In this case, it will be more believable and less dramatic.
-
Yeah. The problem is that the Quran calls Jesus 'The Messiah'. Any serious reader of the Tanakh will say that this is a pure joke. It should have said that Jesus is a messiah 'anointed'. In this case, it will be more believable and less dramatic.
True. Messiah just means "anointed" many millions of people have been anointed.
-
But the question remains...
Is Astrotheology a false premise or the ultimate connection?
The Bible and the Quran testify that the position of the stars is not haphazard and data can be gained from it and the will of God is actually written there if you can read it properly.
5675 I do swear by the positions of the stars.
http//www.astrologyzine.com/astrology-bible.shtml
-
But the question remains...
Is Astrotheology a false premise or the ultimate connection?
The Bible and the Quran testify that the position of the stars is not haphazard and data can be gained from it and the will of God is actually written there if you can read it properly.
5675 I do swear by the positions of the stars.
http//www.astrologyzine.com/astrology-bible.shtml
The positions of the stars is not haphazard, they can be predicted millions of years in the future and the past. Whether the will of God is written there, I do not know.
-
You are so right. Jews can successfully refute the Quran by refuting the Messianship of Jesus and the Virgin Birth.
Actually the idea of Jewish Messiah is a myth and a misunderstanding of the Hebrew texts. The idea of an eschatological Messiah is a made up idea.
May God guides us to what is right.
I don't think it's a misunderstanding of the Hebrew texts, but it's a misuse of the text. In Judaism you have...
1st Authority of the patriarchs
2nd Institution of the priestly caste
3rd Innovation of the monarchy
4th The Hasmoneans/Hellenist empire
5th Expectation of a savior/messiah (which is a big mess of priestly/kingly qualities based on any verse of hyperbole or obscure prediction of the future)
The really weird thing is that in a plain reading of the Hebrew Bible, there IS a saviour but it's Elijah. Daniel talks about the Son of Man brought before God and then Malaki says Elijah will come before the end of the world to fix everything. The problem is no one can fake being Elijah whereas everybody can claim and has claimed to be Messiah. So Christians and Jews stuck Elijah in the backseat, and Muslims did the same thing to Jesus. Making him second fiddle to the Mahdi.
I'm THIS close to asking the Samaritans if I can hook up with them. As Abrahamic religion has evolved it's become more and more convoluted.
Since the subject of Jesus has come back up, isn't the compared blessing of the Family of Abraham and the Family of Imran disordinate and redundant? What was so great about Jesus's grandfather that he should be likened to Abraham, especially since he himself is descended from Abraham? It's funny that Christian polemists should focus so much on the argument of conflation and ignore that.
-
Yeah. The problem is that the Quran calls Jesus 'The Messiah'. Any serious reader of the Tanakh will say that this is a pure joke. It should have said that Jesus is a messiah 'anointed'. In this case, it will be more believable and less dramatic.
The name "Iashua" (Yod Shin Vav Ayin) is a common Jewish name 2000 years ago.
This has been supported by archeological findings of many tombs with Jesus(es) names imprinted near Jerusalem area.2000 years ago, asking "I'm looking for Iashua" to the people within Jerusalem / Canaan area is as silly as asking "I'm looking for Paul" in London or "I'm looking for Mori" in Tokyo today. You have to be more specific, which Iashua are you looking for?
Thus your answer is perhaps; I'm looking for Iashua Ha Mossiach (Jesus The Messiah) or Iashua Ha Nozirith (Jesus the Nazarenes / those who took the 'nazar' oath, easily recognizable through his long hair and beard) and not Iashua Ha Tzadik or Iashua Ha Dayag or Iashua Ben Simeon.
Ha Mossiach has became his 'nickname', thus Quran is not making any mistakes on referring to THAT Jesus as Jesus The Christ (Arabic Isa Al-Masih).
The nickname / title "Ha Mossiach" doesn't necessarily mean he is the ONLY Messiah.
In the Tanakh you can find a reference of a persian king named Cyrus being referred as "Ha Mossiach" as well...Salam / Peace
-
I don't think it's a misunderstanding of the Hebrew texts, but it's a misuse of the text. In Judaism you have...
1st Authority of the patriarchs
2nd Institution of the priestly caste
3rd Innovation of the monarchy
4th The Hasmoneans/Hellenist empire
5th Expectation of a savior/messiah (which is a big mess of priestly/kingly qualities based on any verse of hyperbole or obscure prediction of the future)
The really weird thing is that in a plain reading of the Hebrew Bible, there IS a saviour but it's Elijah. Daniel talks about the Son of Man brought before God and then Malaki says Elijah will come before the end of the world to fix everything. The problem is no one can fake being Elijah whereas everybody can claim and has claimed to be Messiah. So Christians and Jews stuck Elijah in the backseat, and Muslims did the same thing to Jesus. Making him second fiddle to the Mahdi.
I'm THIS close to asking the Samaritans if I can hook up with them. As Abrahamic religion has evolved it's become more and more convoluted.
Since the subject of Jesus has come back up, isn't the compared blessing of the Family of Abraham and the Family of Imran disordinate and redundant? What was so great about Jesus's grandfather that he should be likened to Abraham, especially since he himself is descended from Abraham? It's funny that Christian polemists should focus so much on the argument of conflation and ignore that.
The Messiah and the Messianic era are actually a misnomer. Yes there is an era where everything will be ok. But this figure is God Himself. NOT a Messiah and NOT Jesus.
I think the Messianic era which will last forever and where there is no war and death will be abolished is the Garden of Eden promised in the Quran.
And is yet to come.
When God and the Angels arrive.
-
The name "Iashua" (Yod Shin Vav Ayin) is a common Jewish name 2000 years ago.
This has been supported by archeological findings of many tombs with Jesus(es) names imprinted near Jerusalem area.2000 years ago, asking "I'm looking for Iashua" to the people within Jerusalem / Canaan area is as silly as asking "I'm looking for Paul" in London or "I'm looking for Mori" in Tokyo today. You have to be more specific, which Iashua are you looking for?
Thus your answer is perhaps; I'm looking for Iashua Ha Mossiach (Jesus The Messiah) or Iashua Ha Nozirith (Jesus the Nazarenes / those who took the 'nazar' oath, easily recognizable through his long hair and beard) and not Iashua Ha Tzadik or Iashua Ha Dayag or Iashua Ben Simeon.
Ha Mossiach has became his 'nickname', thus Quran is not making any mistakes on referring to THAT Jesus as Jesus The Christ (Arabic Isa Al-Masih).
The nickname / title "Ha Mossiach" doesn't necessarily mean he is the ONLY Messiah.
In the Tanakh you can find a reference of a persian king named Cyrus being referred as "Ha Mossiach" as well...Salam / Peace
Yeah so Jesus is not the only Messiah and not the eschatological Messiah that Rabbinic Judaism awaits. Good work.
The eschatological 'Messiah' is GOD HIMSELF during J-Day.
-
The Messiah and the Messianic era are actually a misnomer. Yes there is an era where everything will be ok. But this figure is God Himself. NOT a Messiah and NOT Jesus.
I think the Messianic era which will last forever and where there is no war and death will be abolished is the Garden of Eden promised in the Quran.
And is yet to come.
When God and the Angels arrive.
There is one God and one God only. Calling someone a Messiah is not calling them God and, as you say, Jesus was not the only one called "Messiah".
-
Who saved Israel from Egypt?
GOD.
Who will save Israel during the Messianic era?
GOD.
No humans involved.
Prophets were longing that God saves Israel again from oppression they got like He did in Egypt.
This what we refer to as J-day where God will save the believers once and for all and pass the final judgement on all the false gods human worshipped throughout history and all their followers.