Monotheists
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So, essentially, since birth, Abraham was totally uninfluenced by his father's teachings (a priest in a temple) and KNEW from an early age about the one true god?
Also, who did he first use the logical argument of the planet/sun/moon against? Himself or the people?
He doesnt worship the celestial bodies not does he take them as partners of God. I need to check up on this issue and GW I'll get back to you again.
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He doesnt worship the celestial bodies not does he take them as partners of God. I need to check up on this issue and GW I'll get back to you again.
And he didn't, even in a momentary lapse of reason, think that maybe "hmm that shiny things looks pretty big. might be god." and then came to his senses?
What I'm trying to argue here is if Abraham already knew about the true god (I.E. born with the knowledge) or did he reach the conclusion through reason. First debating with himself and then with the people he was around. After which he broke their idols and had to flee because of their close-mindedness.
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Peace Rashidala,
Again.. we find out that free-minds are not so free.
If I recall the verse was "any one who ..." not just those who are of the Abrahamic faith. Do you wish to nit pick the verse now?
Muhsin Khan Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
Yusuf Ali Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
Pickthal Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.
Pay close attention to the words in the ** if you would please.
First of all, I'm not a "free-minder". LOL... Secondly, you have to read the context of the passage in which you're examining. It specifically says, "those who are Jews, and the Nasara, and the converts (i.e. "saabioon", any who believe..." The context is clear enough. It's talking about ANYONE AMONG THESE GROUPS who believes in God and in the last day, not anyone in general. If it was talking about anyone on earth, what's the point of naming any religious groups at all? It wouldn't have said anything about Jews, Nazarenes, or converts at all, it would've looked like this
Pickthal Lo! Whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.
But, as we both know, this is NOT what the passage is saying at all. It's very specific, and it clearly identifies those three groups as achievers of salvation, not any others... It's not about nit-picking, it's about reading the verse in context. You can't just pick and choose which words you want to see, or which ones you feel are more important. You have to read the whole thing...
Peace,
Ahmad
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Why is the "scripture" not named while the others are? I.e. injeel, tarwat...
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Abraham was first an idol worshipper like those around him. If "Noahide laws" were upheld, what were the idols that he broke?
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Some "factors" not being revealed to Noah? I thought God's system would be consistent. Are there still some factors I should be waiting for incase the Qur'an isn't complete.
To answer your questions
(1) None of the scriptures are "named", they are only identified. The "HATORAAH" is not the name of a book, it's the description. It's a Hebrew word meaning "the instruction"... The Qur'aan is not the "name" of a book, it's the description, meaning "the reading" (or "the recitation".
(2) Abraham followed the Noahide Laws, but this doesn't mean his family did. His father, according to the story, was a blatant idol worshipper, and he raised his son to be as he was. Abraham, however, used logic to conclude that none of those idols were comparable to the Supreme God...
(3) God's system is submission, period. Noah was a monotheist, but he didn't have a complete system of practical worship, which is why the Qur'aan instructs us to follow the "millat Ibraheem"/religion of Abraham, not the religion of Noah... Noah came BEFORE Abraham, yet we follow the religion of Abraham. Why is this? Because the Qur'aan specifically says that Abraham was taught the rites and rituals involved in submission, which he taught to his children. There was no salaat, zakaat, siyyaam, etc. mentioned before Abraham. We follow the religion of Abraham by adhering to MORE than just monotheism; we also have rites and rituals involved in our service to God, things that Noah didn't have... Regarding the completion of the system, this isn't an issue, since the Qur'aan states that it's perfect, complete, and fully detailed...
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Do you really wish to argue semantics? lol.
Say I wanted to give a formal lecture and was going to write a letter on a bulletin board I could say "I invite Jews, Christians, Muslims and anyone who believes in Monotheism to attend."
I am not only including the first three but also extending an invitation to 'anyone' else who happens to be a monotheist lest I leave anyone out. If I wished to leave it as an exclusion I would say "I invite all Jews, Christians and Muslims to attend."
Surely, if I can make this logical conclusion, the creator of all things can likewise inspire his messengers to say what is intended.
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So, essentially, since birth, Abraham was totally uninfluenced by his father's teachings (a priest in a temple) and KNEW from an early age about the one true god?
For the answer to this question, you have to examine the actual story of Abraham; it's detailed in the Jewish Talmud... According to the story, Abraham was not born with the knowledge of God; but he used reason and logic to discover Him. Abraham's father was an idol-maker and a priest in a pagan temple, but Abraham rejected his father's work and beliefs, realizing that it was absurd for a 50 year old man to worship a stone "god" that was only a few days old... And yes, he became aware of God at a very early age, during his childhood...
Also, who did he first use the logical argument of the planet/sun/moon against? Himself or the people?
He used this argument against himself... This, however, doesn't make him an idolator. When Abraham discovered the Supreme God, he was still a small child. Here's what the passage says, according to the Talmud
Then he (Abraham) arose and walked about, and he left the cave, and went along the edge of the valley. When the sun sank, and the stars came forth, he said, "These are the gods!" But the dawn came, and the stars could be seen no longer, and then he said, "I will not pay worship to these, for they are no gods." Thereupon the sun came forth, and he spoke, "This is my god, him will I extol." But again the sun set, and he said, "He is no god," and beholding the moon, he called her his god to whom he would pay Divine homage. Then the moon was obscured, and he cried out "This, too, is no god! There is One who sets them all in motion."
Abraham never performed an act of worship to any of these things. He wasn't taught the rites of his worship, which include "salaat", until AFTER this incident; his practical worship was always directed to God alone... What is your point? Are you trying to prove that Abraham was an idol worshipper?
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Say I wanted to give a formal lecture and was going to write a letter on a bulletin board I could say "I invite Jews, Christians, Muslims and anyone who believes in Monotheism to attend."
I am not only including the first three but also extending an invitation to 'anyone' else who happens to be a monotheist lest I leave anyone out. If I wished to leave it as an exclusion I would say "I invite all Jews, Christians and Muslims to attend."
This is only partially correct. The passage doesn't give these graces to "the Jews, the Nasara, the converts, and anyone who believes in God..." Why do I say this? Because there's no word "AND" included in the passage between the converts/"saabioon" and the monotheists. This completely changes the context. If you said, "I'm inviting all Jews, Christians, and Muslims, any who are monotheists...", you are inviting all monotheists among the Jews, Christians, and Muslims. It's that simple.
Surely, if I can make this logical conclusion, the creator of all things can likewise inspire his messengers to say what is intended.
Exactly. That's precisely why the Creator of the universe DID say exactly what He meant. He specifically mentioned the Abrahamic religions and not any others. This is the basis of following the religion of Abraham, not the religion of Buddha... He only differentiated between the systems' beliefs because not all Jews believe in God and the last day, nor do all Christians and Muslims. Also, not everyone in these groups leads righteous lives... Read the complete context of the passage when it mentions this concept; right now you're only seeing what you want to see, not what it actually says...
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Then my former postulate stands according to your logic; God is either impotent or does not care.
For, if he knows all things, he knows those who will choose to be a benevolent (insert monotheistic religion here) and yet still sends them to hell for it.
Systems of justice and law as it once was in the states was "innocent until proven guilty." It would be like sentencing a moral and honorable man or woman to capital punishment just because they did not agree with the latest law that was passed (the case being it was an unjust and morally wrong law so they stand against it.)
In a religious sense, this is what God is doing according to scripture. "Follow my laws or go to the fire." One could be a good person, yet that does not matter here.
One can not say there are no moral atheists. I suggest this in another post. I know many honorable atheists and agnostics who are good friends and someone I could trust me life to in a bad situation. Yet, according to God's omnipotent judgment, I can not expect to see them in paradise.
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To answer your questions
(1) None of the scriptures are "named", they are only identified. The "HATORAAH" is not the name of a book, it's the description. It's a Hebrew word meaning "the instruction"... The Qur'aan is not the "name" of a book, it's the description, meaning "the reading" (or "the recitation".
Fair enough. What is the description of the "scripture" revealed to Abraham.
(2) Abraham followed the Noahide Laws, but this doesn't mean his family did. His father, according to the story, was a blatant idol worshipper, and he raised his son to be as he was. Abraham, however, used logic to conclude that none of those idols were comparable to the Supreme God...
What proof is there of existence of Noahide laws? And where can I find them to compare them to the laws revealed to Abraham?
(3) God's system is submission, period. Noah was a monotheist, but he didn't have a complete system of practical worship, which is why the Qur'aan instructs us to follow the "millat Ibraheem"/religion of Abraham, not the religion of Noah... Noah came BEFORE Abraham, yet we follow the religion of Abraham. Why is this? Because the Qur'aan specifically says that Abraham was taught the rites and rituals involved in submission, which he taught to his children. There was no salaat, zakaat, siyyaam, etc. mentioned before Abraham. We follow the religion of Abraham by adhering to MORE than just monotheism; we also have rites and rituals involved in our service to God, things that Noah didn't have... Regarding the completion of the system, this isn't an issue, since the Qur'aan states that it's perfect, complete, and fully detailed...
- What is "practical worship"?
- There were no muslims before Abraham? Noah was not a muslim?
- I probably have a very different definition of salaat and zakaat than you so I won't go too much into that.
- So, there are two systems; monotheism and islam? And they are clearly not consistent since islam came about after it was revealed to Abraham... I mean according to what you just said.
- It does state that it's perfect, complete, and fully detailed. And what of the hundreds of threads on this forum still trying to decipher it?
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For the answer to this question, you have to examine the actual story of Abraham; it's detailed in the Jewish Talmud... According to the story, Abraham was not born with the knowledge of God; but he used reason and logic to discover Him. Abraham's father was an idol-maker and a priest in a pagan temple, but Abraham rejected his father's work and beliefs, realizing that it was absurd for a 50 year old man to worship a stone "god" that was only a few days old... And yes, he became aware of God at a very early age, during his childhood...
Jewish Talmud = oral laws right? I.e. no different than the hadiths. Why use it as a source of events when even the Old Testament's records are considered sketchy at best?
Again, please provide proof of an early realization of the existence of God by Abraham at an early age. Also, that would mean that he was an agnostic, an atheist, or a idol worshipper before he came to the realization.
He used this argument against himself... This, however, doesn't make him an idolator. When Abraham discovered the Supreme God, he was still a small child. Here's what the passage says, according to the Talmud
Then he (Abraham) arose and walked about, and he left the cave, and went along the edge of the valley. When the sun sank, and the stars came forth, he said, "These are the gods!" But the dawn came, and the stars could be seen no longer, and then he said, "I will not pay worship to these, for they are no gods." Thereupon the sun came forth, and he spoke, "This is my god, him will I extol." But again the sun set, and he said, "He is no god," and beholding the moon, he called her his god to whom he would pay Divine homage. Then the moon was obscured, and he cried out "This, too, is no god! There is One who sets them all in motion."
Abraham never performed an act of worship to any of these things. He wasn't taught the rites of his worship, which include "salaat", until AFTER this incident; his practical worship was always directed to God alone... What is your point? Are you trying to prove that Abraham was an idol worshipper?
So, to bear the thought in your mind that some worldly and tangible thing is god but not worship it doesn't equate idol worship? I.e. I could believe that this bed I'm sitting on right now is god and not be an idol worshipper. But as soon as I do an act of worship, is the moment I become an idol worshipper? Also, what can be considered "an act of worship"?
Yes, I'm trying to prove that Abraham, momentarily was an idol worshipper.
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Peace Rashidala,
First of all, I'm not a "free-minder". LOL... Secondly, you have to read the context of the passage in which you're examining. It specifically says, "those who are Jews, and the Nasara, and the converts (i.e. "saabioon", any who believe..." The context is clear enough. It's talking about ANYONE AMONG THESE GROUPS who believes in God and in the last day, not anyone in general. If it was talking about anyone on earth, what's the point of naming any religious groups at all? It wouldn't have said anything about Jews, Nazarenes, or converts at all, it would've looked like this
Pickthal Lo! Whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.
But, as we both know, this is NOT what the passage is saying at all. It's very specific, and it clearly identifies those three groups as achievers of salvation, not any others... It's not about nit-picking, it's about reading the verse in context. You can't just pick and choose which words you want to see, or which ones you feel are more important. You have to read the whole thing...
Peace,
Ahmad
Peace,
You would think that if it meant only those specific groups, it would say that. What I read when I'm reading is anyone who is monotheist. It doesn't say what you say it says. Even Muhammad Asad's footnote doesn't say what you're saying. -
Then my former postulate stands according to your logic; God is either impotent or does not care.
For, if he knows all things, he knows those who will choose to be a benevolent (insert monotheistic religion here) and yet still sends them to hell for it.
Systems of justice and law as it once was in the states was "innocent until proven guilty." It would be like sentencing a moral and honorable man or woman to capital punishment just because they did not agree with the latest law that was passed (the case being it was an unjust and morally wrong law so they stand against it.)
In a religious sense, this is what God is doing according to scripture. "Follow my laws or go to the fire." One could be a good person, yet that does not matter here.
One can not say there are no moral atheists. I suggest this in another post. I know many honorable atheists and agnostics who are good friends and someone I could trust me life to in a bad situation. Yet, according to God's omnipotent judgment, I can not expect to see them in paradise.
Ummm... Pretty much... If somebody's an atheist, he's pretty much NOT gonna make it to paradise. Why would that hurt him? He doesn't believe in paradise anyway... LOL
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Fair enough. What is the description of the "scripture" revealed to Abraham.
It's described as the "suhoofu Ibraheem" (scrolls of Abraham). This is a basic enough description...
What proof is there of existence of Noahide laws? And where can I find them to compare them to the laws revealed to Abraham?
They're recorded in the Torah, both the written and the oral. They are
(1) Prohibition against idolatry
(2) Prohibition against murder
(3) Prohibition against theft
(4) Prohibition against sexual immorality
(5) Prohibition against blasphemy
(6) Prohibition against eating a limb from a living animal (interpreted to refer to eating blood, since the Torah states that the "life is in the blood"
(7) Requirement to set up a judicial system to govern the people/societyIt's implied that Abraham was aware of these laws because he was a child of Noah. The Qur'aan says that Abraham kept God's commandments; the only commandments that existed were the Noahide Laws...
- What is "practical worship"?
- There were no muslims before Abraham? Noah was not a muslim?
- I probably have a very different definition of salaat and zakaat than you so I won't go too much into that.
- So, there are two systems; monotheism and islam? And they are clearly not consistent since islam came about after it was revealed to Abraham... I mean according to what you just said.
- It does state that it's perfect, complete, and fully detailed. And what of the hundreds of threads on this forum still trying to decipher it?
By practical worship, I mean service turned into action (i.e. acts of worship)... There were "muslimoon" (submitters) before Abraham, but none of them performed the acts of worship required of us today, which were taught to Abraham... There is a difference between monotheism and submission/"islaam", which is evident from reading the scriptures. Just because groups have built their foundations on monotheism doesn't mean they were worshipping the One True God; it just means they were only worshipping one god, who literally could've been anyone. Although monotheism is a pillar of true Islaam, the two are not the same thing... And just because there are threads trying to decipher the Qur'aan doesn't mean it's not complete and fully detailed; that's an irrelevant idea...
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Jewish Talmud = oral laws right? I.e. no different than the hadiths. Why use it as a source of events when even the Old Testament's records are considered sketchy at best?
Again, please provide proof of an early realization of the existence of God by Abraham at an early age. Also, that would mean that he was an agnostic, an atheist, or a idol worshipper before he came to the realization.
Are you serious?! The Qur'aan claims to confirm the Torah, period; this is the oral and the written. There are plenty of passages in the Qur'aan that refer to teachings in the Mischna and oral Torah, being confirmed in the reading, that appear NOWHERE in the Hebrew Bible (written Torah). The Jewish Talmud is based on teachings from the Torah, and the oral Torah was divinely revealed also, not just the Tanakh. You obviously need to do more research on this... Abraham's worship is characterized by the Qur'aanic description of him; he never performed any acts of worship to false gods. He was simply confused as a small child, which does not constitute idolatry. If it did, it would be a contradiction in the Qur'aan to say that Abraham was "NEVER" an idol worshipper or polytheist, which is says several times...
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Peace Aynur,
You would think that if it meant only those specific groups, it would say that. What I read when I'm reading is anyone who is monotheist. It doesn't say what you say it says. Even Muhammad Asad's footnote doesn't say what you're saying.
If it's just generally referring to ANYONE who's a monotheist, then what is the point of it specifically mentioning the Jews, Nazarenes, and Islaamic converts? And if salvation was guaranteed to everyone who believes in the traditional concept of monotheism (completely general audience), then what was the point of God sending down the Torah or the Qur'aan at all? All you have to do is be a monotheist and it's sufficient enough, right? So, why do the scriptures (i.e. Torah and Qur'aan) detail specific laws for the people? Why not just one page that says, 'Worship God, believe in the last day, and lead a good life'? According to you, the rest of the book is completely unnecessary, right?
Peace,
Ahmad
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For the answer to this question, you have to examine the actual story of Abraham; it's detailed in the Jewish Talmud... According to the story, Abraham was not born with the knowledge of God; but he used reason and logic to discover Him. Abraham's father was an idol-maker and a priest in a pagan temple, but Abraham rejected his father's work and beliefs, realizing that it was absurd for a 50 year old man to worship a stone "god" that was only a few days old... And yes, he became aware of God at a very early age, during his childhood...
He used this argument against himself... This, however, doesn't make him an idolator. When Abraham discovered the Supreme God, he was still a small child. Here's what the passage says, according to the Talmud
Then he (Abraham) arose and walked about, and he left the cave, and went along the edge of the valley. When the sun sank, and the stars came forth, he said, "These are the gods!" But the dawn came, and the stars could be seen no longer, and then he said, "I will not pay worship to these, for they are no gods." Thereupon the sun came forth, and he spoke, "This is my god, him will I extol." But again the sun set, and he said, "He is no god," and beholding the moon, he called her his god to whom he would pay Divine homage. Then the moon was obscured, and he cried out "This, too, is no god! There is One who sets them all in motion."
Abraham never performed an act of worship to any of these things. He wasn't taught the rites of his worship, which include "salaat", until AFTER this incident; his practical worship was always directed to God alone... What is your point? Are you trying to prove that Abraham was an idol worshipper?
bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo
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Peace Rashidala,
First of all, I'm not a "free-minder". LOL... Secondly, you have to read the context of the passage in which you're examining. It specifically says, "those who are Jews, and the Nasara, and the converts (i.e. "saabioon", any who believe..." The context is clear enough. It's talking about ANYONE AMONG THESE GROUPS
Can you please explain to me how you have interpretated the arabic word nasara to be Jews and sabieena to be converts?? A wrong interpretation leads to a wrong conclusion. You have stated it specifically states this yet there are more than one interpretation of this verse so please explain how you have come to a logical conclusion of those two words being specific groups and your interpretation being the right one.
In my opinion they are generic groups and this verse supports that the reward with The Lord is beyond which group you belong to as no good deed is wasted; even an atoms worth.
PEACE
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Peace Prince,
Can you please explain to me how you have interpretated the arabic word nasara to be Jews and sabieena to be converts?? A wrong interpretation leads to a wrong conclusion. You have stated it specifically states this yet there are more than one interpretation of this verse so please explain how you have come to a logical conclusion of those two words being specific groups and your interpretation being the right one.
Sure. The word "nasara" is literally translated as "nazarene", which is the group of Jews who followed Jesus during his ministry. These can be interpreted as referring to the actual group of Nazarenes, or it can be referring to the Ebionites, a similar group of disciples who regarded Jesus as a prophet and who were Torah-observant Jews... Although some people have interpreted the word "nasara" as referring to Christians, this is incorrect, and the word for "christian" is never mentioned in the Qur'aan at all, and only time they are directly mentioned is when the scripture refers to them as pagans (or "polytheists" in reference to their Trinitarian beliefs... The word "saabii" implies someone changing their belief system, and the word "saabioon" literally means a person who changes his or her religion to another's, or a "convert". So, in this sense, depending on the context of the passage, it could be referring to a Jewish convert, a Nazarene convert, or an Islaamic convert who chose to follow Muhammad...
In my opinion they are generic groups and this verse supports that the reward with The Lord is beyond which group you belong to as no good deed is wasted; even an atoms worth.
This is extremely unlikely, especially considering the fact that the word "saabioon" means converts. It's not talking about someone converting to a random, generic group, since this would defeat the purpose of mentioning Jews and Nazarenes. Instead of implying any random group, it specifically mentions the Abrahamic systems (i.e. Judaism, Nazarenism, Islaam) and no others. Why do you think this is?
Peace,
Ahmad
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I must reiterate here.. Abraham was not a Jew, a Christian or a Muslim (as we see Islam today).
He believed in monotheism, did righteous deeds and I would think believed in a judgment. So.. one could be like his example and be saved without a holy book
Else, as Prince says, what would happen to the deeds of a righteous monotheist who was like Abraham in generality?
That would not make Allah the most just of judges if they just became nothing.
I am not a native arab speaker but I am one who went to college to polish my english as a native speaker to be that much better.. and I must say.. if the line is "Jews, Christians, and anyone who is a monotheist.." I would be inviting the first two and any other monotheist to such a meeting.
Qur'an says 'anyone' in this term.. So, question the translations of these Scholars or question the Qur'an. Your choice.
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I must reiterate here.. Abraham was not a Jew, a Christian or a Muslim (as we see Islam today).
He believed in monotheism, did righteous deeds and I would think believed in a judgment. So.. one could be like his example and be saved without a holy book
Else, as Prince says, what would happen to the deeds of a righteous monotheist who was like Abraham in generality?
That would not make Allah the most just of judges if they just became nothing.
I am not a native arab speaker but I am one who went to college to polish my english as a native speaker to be that much better.. and I must say.. if the line is "Jews, Christians, and anyone who is a monotheist.." I would be inviting the first two and any other monotheist to such a meeting.
Qur'an says 'anyone' in this term.. So, question the translations of these Scholars or question the Qur'an. Your choice.
So whoever does righteous good deeds while he is a believer (in the Oneness of Allah Islamic Monotheism), his efforts will not be rejected. Verily! We record it in his Book of deeds. S. 2194 Al-Hilali & Khan
It is not for the Mushrikun (polytheists, idolaters, pagans, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah), to maintain the Mosques of Allah (i.e. to pray and worship Allah therein, to look after their cleanliness and their building, etc.), while they witness against their ownselves of disbelief. The works of such are in vain and in Fire shall they abide. S. 917 Al-Hilali & Khan
As in the case of those before you they were mightier than you in power, and more flourishing in wealth and children. They had their enjoyment of their portion and ye have of yours, as did those before you; and ye indulge in idle talk as they did. They! - their work are fruitless in this world and in the Hereafter, and they will lose (all spiritual good). S. 969 Yusuf Ali
And they will never cease fighting you until they turn you back from your religion (Islamic Monotheism) if they can. And whosoever of you turns back from his religion and dies as a disbeliever, then his deeds will be lost in this life and in the Hereafter, and they will be the dwellers of the Fire. They will abide therein forever. S. 2217 Al-Hilali & Khan
Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. S. 262 Al-Hilali & Khan