Quran inheritance mistake

huruf

It is is thuluthain, but it is declined here, I think, as modified by "ma taraka". Please someone with better grammar command explain this.

Salaam

Samia

It is is thuluthain, but it is declined here, I think, as modified by "ma taraka". Please someone with better grammar command explain this.

Salaam
[/quote

You're almost right. It's originally thulthaan (in the nominative) and is the first part of an idaafa construction (form of X of y) thulthaa maa tarak 2/3 of what he left, in which case it loses the "nuun" and becomes thulthaa.

unknownuser

Peace Noreen, all,

OK. Any ideas why the one daughter bit begins with "wa" and not "fa"? A similar thing happens in 4176 ... perhaps this just means that the ELSE IF applies to both the statement before the wa and the statement after it.

I once had a theory that - from what meant fixed and - what meant variable in order to support using algebra normalization of shares which exceeded total inheritance. That did not work out to be consistent.

As in Ockham's razor line of reasoning the simplest view is most likely correct thus read verbatim.

Seems both fa-in (so if) and wa-in (and if) are ELSE IF case separators.

But ... what if there are no children and no father and no brothers but a mother and 3 sisters (and maybe a spouse)? What is the sisters' share if there are more than two?

mother, 3 sisters (4176 - so if - they are - two (f) - so to them - the two thirds )
I interpret above as if at least two are present
1 - 2/3 sisters = 1/3 mother

mother, husband, 3 sisters {not Kalala, sisters get nothing)
1 - 1/2 husband = 1/2 mother

Also, can a brother inherit from a male kalaalah with no child?

Yes, deduced in 411

mother, brother
1 - 1/6 mother = 5/6 brother

Can a sister inherit from a female kalaalah with no child (I assume yes, because the masculine gender is used in e.g. 411 even if the deceased is female)?

Yes the Arabic is masculine language; for him in verse applies also for her...

...say "God decrees in alkalalati, if human died, not for him a child, and for him a sister

sister, mother
1 - 1/2 sister = 1/2 mother

Likewise in 411 his, he, him apply equally to she and her.

411 ?and to his parents, to each one from them the sixth from what he left, if for him was a child (waladun), so if was not for him a child, and his parents inherited him, so to his mother the third, so if brothers were for him ?

Grammar rules as we have today are useless in most cases ? there was no written standard at the time.

Is ikhwatun plural? Is waladun singular?

This is like asking "do you have brothers and children?" How would a person in most languages who has only one brother or one child reply? If only plural 411 would be inapplicable for all cases with one child as an example.

Therefore, the answer to the question "do you have children?"

Would be correct to answer YES -- if one child.

Right, so 2180 instructs us to include parents, children, spouse and siblings(?) in the will.

I believe so -- browse
http//www.openburhan.net/ob_w.php?w=3292

What is the meaning of "yataamaa"? Children of the deceased, i.e. people who have at least one deceased parent and will therefore inherit? And who are the yataamaa in 48?

The destitute who are in need are
http//www.openburhan.net/ob_w.php?w=9811

Children fatherless are considered orphans.

4176
"and if they are siblings men and women so to the male alike fortune the two females"
I was having trouble with this. On the one hand, we were assuming that the male children in 411 get the same share as the two daughters of the deceased (or, by the other interpretation, if there are two daughters per son, each son gets an amount equal to what two daughters would get). On the other hand, we were interpreting the same Arabic phrase in 4176 to mean, "each brother gets twice the share of a sister". I found this to be contradictory and illogical, as the exact same phrase was being used.
But both Samia's and Eid's views of 411 seem very logical - and I am leaning towards Eid's interpretation at the moment, since it appears to cover all scenarios where there are both daughters and sons. So I wondered whether we were overlooking something in 4176.
Now I'm thinking, going by the logic of 411, that "the two females" in 4176 must be referring to the "two (sisters?)" mentioned in the preceeding statement in the same verse! This share is 2/3, so, if there are both brothers and sisters, the brothers share in 2/3 and sisters share in 1/3.
I'd welcome any feedback on this - I haven't gone through examples so if there are any that don't work, please bring them up.

The above has me pondering for a while with key difference being in 4176 ikhwatan rijalan wanisaan is specified.

2+ siblings mixed (i.e. at least 1 brother + 1 or more sisters)
OR
3+ siblings mixed (i.e. at least 1 brother + 2 or more sisters) distributed at 21 ratio male female

Have work out all combinations on this.

Salaam Samia,

"ikhwatun" is plural. It can't be a brother. It can be a brother and a sister, or more than two brothers (minimum definition).

If someone asks you do you have brothers, how would you answer if you only had one?

411 ?and to his parents, to each one from them the sixth from what he left, if for him was a child (waladun), so if was not for him a child, and his parents inherited him, so to his mother the third, so if ikhwatun were for him, so to his mother the sixth...

Try to solve with ikhwatun being plural

1 brother, mother {two unknowns}

1 son, mother -- what to give each?

Peace

Samia

Salaam Eid

Salaam Samia,

If someone asks you do you have brothers, how would you answer if you only had one?

I know where you are going ;D. My response was based on an isolated word not in a context. This is exactly like "awlaad" or "walad" in verse 411. It could be any number or gender of children. But if you ask me what "awlaad" is, I will answer the same way I answered for "ikhwatun"

1 brother, mother {two unknowns}

As I mentioned before, how to distribute be our problem AFTER we decide who will inherit and mostly who is the most important heir, becaue this heir will take the remaining after the distribution of fixed shares.

The main heirs (who always inherit) are the children, the parents and the spouses. This is also the order they appear in the inhereitance verses.
Siblings are secondary heirs, because they do not inherit in presence of children. They appear last of the heirs.
In the presence of a main heir and a secondary heir, the main gets the remaining of the inheritance and the secondary heir gets their minimum share.
This categorization of heirs is based on the nearest to the deceased (those he/she is mostly responsible for if he/she was alive).

Back to the problem
Why two unknowns? Mother's share is known from verse 411
mother 1/6
brother takes 1/6 (412. This is his share if there was a spouse)
remaining 2/3 go to the mother as she is the superior heir.

1 son, mother -- what to give each?

mother 1/6
son 5/6
Children share is never defined in any case, which shows that they are the most superior heirs and any other hei who inherits with them will get the minimum stated for them (those are the parents of the deceased and his/her spouse).

unknownuser

Salaam Samia,

I know where you are going ;D. My response was based on an isolated word not in a context. This is exactly like "awlaad" or "walad" in verse 411. It could be any number or gender of children. But if you ask me what "awlaad" is, I will answer the same way I answered for "ikhwatun"

That's right context and cross-reference without contradiction is key to understanding Qur'an.

As I mentioned before, how to distribute be our problem AFTER we decide who will inherit and mostly who is the most important heir, becaue this heir will take the remaining after the distribution of fixed shares.

The main heirs (who always inherit) are the children, the parents and the spouses. This is also the order they appear in the inhereitance verses.
Siblings are secondary heirs, because they do not inherit in presence of children. They appear last of the heirs.
In the presence of a main heir and a secondary heir, the main gets the remaining of the inheritance and the secondary heir gets their minimum share.
This categorization of heirs is based on the nearest to the deceased (those he/she is mostly responsible for if he/she was alive).

Back to the problem
Why two unknowns? Mother's share is known from verse 411
mother 1/6
brother takes 1/6 (412. This is his share if there was a spouse)
remaining 2/3 go to the mother as she is the superior heir.

That is a speculative work around same as using algebra normalization to divide remainder evenly amongst all participants with only difference to push the remainder to a particular favorite.

contradicts 411 so if ikhwatun were for him, so to his mother the sixth
contradicts 412 only case of Kalala brother takes 1/6 {deceased needs to be Kalala to enter the verse}

Siblings cannot inherit with spouse or father

wife, mother, brother
1 - 1/4 wife ? 1/6 mother - 1/6 brother = 5/12 unallocated {who do we flip the remainder?}

husband, mother, sister, brother, father {which verse to use for siblings 412 or 4176?}
1 - 1/2 husband - 1/6 mother - 1/6 sister - 1/6 brother = 0 nothing to father {who do we bounce?}

The distributions are precise and there are no remaining or oversubscribed shares.

Samia

Salaam Eid

contradicts 411 so if ikhwatun were for him, so to his mother the sixth

The mother's share is not constant like the spous'e. She gets 1/6 and the brother 2/6 as per the verse. Where would the remaining go? These are the ligitmate heirs so far. The parent would definitely have the priority to get the rest.

contradicts 412 only case of Kalala brother takes 1/6 {deceased needs to be Kalala to enter the verse}

We have to find the share of the brother in similar cases. If the brother takes 1/6 in case of kelala who only has a wife and siblings "since 412 is mainly speaking of the share of the third heirs spouses" ( / If the man or woman whose inheritance is in question, but has left a brother or a sister, each one of the two gets a sixth; 412), the brother would not get more than the 1/6 if a parent is alive instead of the spouse. It's logical.

Siblings cannot inherit with spouse or father

Parents share is linked to each other not to the presence or absence of any heirs. There's no difference between mother and father. The mention of a mother alone is similar to the mention of a daughter/s alone presumes the existance of the male counterpart, especially when the start of the sentence/statement speaks of "children?awlaadukum/walad) or parents

411 ( / if no children, and the parents are the (only) heirs, the mother has a third; if the deceased Left brothers (or sisters) the mother has a sixth. The distribution in all cases ('s) after the payment of legacies and debts. Ye know not whether your parents or your children are nearest to you in benefit. These are settled portions ordained by Allah; and Allah is All-knowing, Al-wise..). It even ends with the mention of parents and are compared to children.

That is a speculative work around same as using algebra normalization to divide remainder evenly amongst all participants with only difference to push the remainder to a particular favorite.

This is not speculative. It's clear from the verses heirs are not the same in their degree of relationship to the deceased. Children and parents are top heirs / Ye know not whether your parents or your children are nearest to you in benefit (411). Children are top of the two, since siblings are not even mentioned in their presence, but are mentioned in the presence of parents presence of children curtails the right of siblings to inherit.

From this, we can conclude that the chronological appearance of heirs throught the three verses of inheritance indicates the degree of nearness and thus the importance of the heir. It therefore decides which heir would take the remaining inheritance after the distribution is done
411 Mainly about children and parents Children, then parents; then siblings in presence of parents and absence of children.
412 spouses in presence and absence of children; then siblings in presence of spouses. Notice that kalala is mentioned here but not in 411, which proves that with the presence of parents (dealt with in 411 and not mentioned again at all) we cannot speak of kelala. In both these verses siblings are never mentioned when children inherit, but are mentioned in presence of parents and spouses.
In verse 412 which is now discuaaing only spouses, we come for the first time with the term "kalala". We conclude that a kalal can have a spouse. Therefore we can have kalala, spouse and siblings. We do not have kalala + parents.
4176 All about siblings in absence of all other heirs. It follows 412 and is mainly about kalala.

From the above, I can conclude that

Children share the inheritance ONLY with parents and spouse.
Siblings have right to inheritance in presence of parents (no mention of kalala) and of spouse (first time kalala is mentioned in verse 412), never mentioned in presence of children.
Siblings are again mentioned with kalala, in absence of all other heirs
Kalal are mentioned n 412 where neither parents nor children ae mentioned but spouses are.
Kalala are again mentioned where no other heir is mentioned except siblings.
Therfore, kalal does not have children nor parents.
Therefore siblings inherit only in prsence of parents and spouses, never in presence of children.

wife, mother, brother
1 - 1/4 wife ? 1/6 mother - 1/6 brother = 5/12 unallocated {who do we flip the remainder?}

The remainder goes back to the top heir the mother. No way of giving it to someone who basically does not have the right to inherit in the presence of any of these three. If someone dies and left only one of the above (wife, mother or brother) wouldn't the inherit the lot? The shres are the minimum of what has the right to inherit, not the maximum.

The distributions are precise and there are no remaining or oversubscribed shares.

This is not a proof of understanding WHO should inherit. How would you distribute the inheritance of someone leaving behind a son, a daughter and a brother?
I would say half for the daughter and half for the son. The brother gets nothing.

husband, mother, sister, brother, father {which verse to use for siblings 412 or 4176?}
1 - 1/2 husband - 1/6 mother - 1/6 sister - 1/6 brother = 0 nothing to father {who do we bounce?}

Husband 1/2; parents 1/6 each (mention of the female presupposes the existance of the male counterpart), sister and brother 1/6 shared equally 1/2+1/3+1/6 = 1. Each one got their minimum share.

nwryn

Salaam all

Is it possible that siblings in 4176 (not 412) get remainder shared out amongst themselves after shares of mother (if specified) and spouse are subtracted from the whole? Like for children in 411.

e.g.

husband, mother, sister
husband = 1/2; sister = 1/2 of remainder = 1/4; mother = 1/4

husband, mother, 2 sisters
husband = 1/2; sisters = 2/3 of remainder; mother = 1/3 of remainder

husband, mother, brother(s)
husband = 1/2; mother = 1/6; brother(s) = remainder
unless ikhwatun cannot be one brother (then we will have two unknowns - mother and brother)

husband, mother, sister, brother(s)
husband = 1/2; mother = 1/6; sister = 1/2 of remainder; brother(s) = 1/2 of remainder
do not need to use "siblings men and women"

husband, mother, 2 sisters, brother(s)
husband = 1/2; mother = 1/6; sisters = 2/3 of remainder; brother(s) = 1/3 of remainder
similar to above

husband, mother, 3+ sisters, brother(s)
husband = 1/2; mother = 1/6; brother(s) = 2/3 of remainder; sisters = 1/3 of remainder.

Samia

Salaam Noreen

Parents and spouses are dealt with in 411 and 412 respectively, with all the possibilities and the legitmate heirs who can have a share with them, including siblings.

Verse 4176 is exclusively for siblings when they are alone. No parents nor spouses are mentioned in this verse, and of course no children are ever mentioned with siblings and vise versa children curtail the right of siblings to inherit.

mmouhammad

Peace all,

Here are my thoughts after I made a complete review and run all possible logical cases before reaching this conclusion.

Kalalah is the loss of the 2 parents. The Kalil might or might not have children.
.

Main inheritors are Spouses, Parents and Children.
The Siblings are Alternative inheritors.
a. Siblings will inherit as alternatives to children along with any or both of their parents.
i. When the deceased has parents but not children, sibling's share will be that of the children divided amongst them as per the conditions at the beginning of verse 411.
ii. This inheritance is confirmed in second part of verse 411. And to his parents to each is 1/6 if he has children so if he has no children then to his mother is 1/3 but if he has siblings then to his mother is 1/6.
iii. As you can see, when has no children but has siblings, the mother's share is reduced back to 1/6; this is same as if he has children.
b. Siblings will inherit as alternatives to their parents along with children.
i. When the deceased has children but not parents, Kalalah verse 412, siblings share will be that of the parents, max. 1/3.
ii. This is confirmed by verse 412 and if he has a brother or a sister to each is 1/6.
c. Siblings will inherit as alternatives when deceased has no parents and has no children.
i. This is Kalalah with no children as confirmed by verse 4176.
d. Siblings, being alternative inheritors, they will not inherit when parents and children are present.

The following if then statements use my current logical understanding of the 3 verses of chapter 4 of the Quran.

? Someone died, who inherits what? ? The following logical cases will cover all possibilities.

IF Deceased has children
? Husband's share is 1/4 ? verse 412
OR
? Wife's share is 1/8 ? verse 412
? IF Deceased has parents THEN
o To Deceased's parents each is 1/6 ? verse 411
o To Children the balance divided as per verse 411
? Else IF Deceased has no parents THEN "Kalalah in 412"
o IF Deceased has a brother or sister THEN
to each is 1/6
o Else IF Deceased has > 2 siblings THEN
Siblings share 1/3
o End IF
o Balance to Children divided as per verse 411
? End IF
Case concluded and inheritance distributed.

Else IF Deceased has no children THEN
? Husband's share is 1/2 ? verse 412
OR
? Wife's share is 1/4 ? verse 412
? IF Deceased has parents THEN
o IF Deceased has siblings THEN
To Deceased's mother is 1/6 ? verse 411
o Else "no siblings; being inherited by parents"
To Deceased's mother is 1/3 ? verse 411
o End IF
? Else IF Deceased has no parents THEN
Kalalah verse 4176 is applied
? End IF
End IF
Case concluded and inheritance distributed.

unknownuser

Salaam Samia,

The mother's share is not constant like the spous'e. She gets 1/6 and the brother 2/6 as per the verse. Where would the remaining go? These are the ligitmate heirs so far. The parent would definitely have the priority to get the rest. We have to find the share of the brother in similar cases. If the brother takes 1/6 in case of kelala who only has a wife and siblings "since 412 is mainly speaking of the share of the third heirs spouses" ( / If the man or woman whose inheritance is in question, but has left a brother or a sister, each one of the two gets a sixth; 412), the brother would not get more than the 1/6 if a parent is alive instead of the spouse. It's logical.

With mother & brother, the mother?s share is constant and clearly stated

411?so if ikhwatun were for him, so to his mother the sixth

There are never remaining shares; mother 1/6, brother variable 1 ? 1/6 mother = 5/6 brother

The remainder goes back to the top heir the mother. No way of giving it to someone who basically does not have the right to inherit in the presence of any of these three. If someone dies and left only one of the above (wife, mother or brother) wouldn't the inherit the lot? The shres are the minimum of what has the right to inherit, not the maximum.

We have Qur'an inheritance precisely calculated without remainders or shortfalls.

This is not a proof of understanding WHO should inherit. How would you distribute the inheritance of someone leaving behind a son, a daughter and a brother?
I would say half for the daughter and half for the son. The brother gets nothing.

son, daughter, brother {kalala with child use 412, brother gets 1/6}
1 ? 1/6 brother = 5/6 children

Quote
husband, mother, sister, brother, father {which verse to use for siblings 412 or 4176?}
1 - 1/2 husband - 1/6 mother - 1/6 sister - 1/6 brother = 0 nothing to father {who do we bounce?}

Husband 1/2; parents 1/6 each (mention of the female presupposes the existance of the male counterpart), sister and brother 1/6 shared equally 1/2+1/3+1/6 = 1. Each one got their minimum share.

Please show which verse says parents get 1/6 each with NO child?

411...and to his PARENTS, to each one from them the 1/6 from what he left, if for him was a child

Also, which verse says ?sister and brother 1/6 shared equally? or 1/12 each?

412?and for him a brother, or a sister, so for each one from them the sixth, so if they were more than that, so they are partners in the third

Verse 4176 is exclusively for siblings when they are alone. No parents nor spouses are mentioned in this verse, and of course no children are ever mentioned with siblings and vise versa children curtail the right of siblings to inherit.

4176 is continuation of 411-12 and if exclusive for siblings, with whom does the sister share 1/2 or the two sisters 2/3?

They ask your clarification, say "God decrees in alkalalati, if human died, not for him a child,
and for him a sister, so for her half what he left, and he inherits her if was not for her a child,
and if they were two, so to them the two thirds from what he left,
and if they were brethren men and women, so to the male equal fortune the two females,
God clarifies for you that you (not) be misguided, and God is with everything knowledgeable.

Peace mmouhammad,

Peace all,

Here are my thoughts after I made a complete review and run all possible logical cases before reaching this conclusion.

Kalalah is the loss of the 2 parents. The Kalil might or might not have children.
.

Main inheritors are Spouses, Parents and Children.
The Siblings are Alternative inheritors.
a. Siblings will inherit as alternatives to children along with any or both of their parents.
i. When the deceased has parents but not children, sibling's share will be that of the children divided amongst them as per the conditions at the beginning of verse 411.
ii. This inheritance is confirmed in second part of verse 411. And to his parents to each is 1/6 if he has children so if he has no children then to his mother is 1/3 but if he has siblings then to his mother is 1/6.
iii. As you can see, when has no children but has siblings, the mother's share is reduced back to 1/6; this is same as if he has children.
b. Siblings will inherit as alternatives to their parents along with children.
i. When the deceased has children but not parents, Kalalah verse 412, siblings share will be that of the parents, max. 1/3.
ii. This is confirmed by verse 412 and if he has a brother or a sister to each is 1/6.
c. Siblings will inherit as alternatives when deceased has no parents and has no children.
i. This is Kalalah with no children as confirmed by verse 4176.
d. Siblings, being alternative inheritors, they will not inherit when parents and children are present.

The following if then statements use my current logical understanding of the 3 verses of chapter 4 of the Quran.

? Someone died, who inherits what? ? The following logical cases will cover all possibilities.

IF Deceased has children
? Husband's share is 1/4 ? verse 412
OR
? Wife's share is 1/8 ? verse 412
? IF Deceased has parents THEN
o To Deceased's parents each is 1/6 ? verse 411
o To Children the balance divided as per verse 411
? Else IF Deceased has no parents THEN "Kalalah in 412"
o IF Deceased has a brother or sister THEN
to each is 1/6
o Else IF Deceased has > 2 siblings THEN
Siblings share 1/3
o End IF
o Balance to Children divided as per verse 411
? End IF
Case concluded and inheritance distributed.

Else IF Deceased has no children THEN
? Husband's share is 1/2 ? verse 412
OR
? Wife's share is 1/4 ? verse 412
? IF Deceased has parents THEN
o IF Deceased has siblings THEN
To Deceased's mother is 1/6 ? verse 411
o Else "no siblings; being inherited by parents"
To Deceased's mother is 1/3 ? verse 411
o End IF
? Else IF Deceased has no parents THEN
Kalalah verse 4176 is applied
? End IF
End IF
Case concluded and inheritance distributed.

Siblings cannot inherit with spouse and/or father ? have a look at these NOT Kalala cases (i.e. 412 & 4176 cannot enter)?

father, brothers {two unknowns}
mother, sister {two unknowns}

mother, sister, brother {two unknowns}
father, 2 sisters, brother {three unknowns}

wife, mother, father, sister, brother {three unknowns}
1 ? 1/4 wife ? 1/6 mother = 7/12 (father, sister, brother ? how to distribute?)

husband, mother, father, 2 sisters, brother {three unknowns}
1 ? 1/2 husband ? 1/6 mother = 1/3 (father, 2 sisters, brother ? how to distribute?)

Peace

mmouhammad

Peace Eid,

Peace mmouhammad,

Siblings cannot inherit with spouse and/or father ? have a look at these NOT Kalala cases (i.e. 412 & 4176 cannot enter)?

father, brothers {two unknowns}
mother, sister {two unknowns}

mother, sister, brother {two unknowns}
father, 2 sisters, brother {three unknowns}

wife, mother, father, sister, brother {three unknowns}
1 ? 1/4 wife ? 1/6 mother = 7/12 (father, sister, brother ? how to distribute?)

husband, mother, father, 2 sisters, brother {three unknowns}
1 ? 1/2 husband ? 1/6 mother = 1/3 (father, 2 sisters, brother ? how to distribute?)

Peace

a. Siblings will inherit as alternatives to children along with any or both of their parents.

i. When the deceased has parents but not children, sibling's share will be that of the children divided amongst them as per the conditions at the beginning of verse 411.

ii. This inheritance is confirmed in second part of verse 411. And to his parents to each is 1/6 if he has children so if he has no children then to his mother is 1/3 but if he has siblings then to his mother is 1/6.

iii. As you can see, when has no children but has siblings, the mother's share is reduced back to 1/6; this share is same as if he has children.

Else IF Deceased has no children THEN
? Husband's share is 1/2 ? verse 412
OR
? Wife's share is 1/4 ? verse 412
? IF Deceased has parents THEN
o IF Deceased has siblings THEN
To Deceased's mother is 1/6 ? verse 411
o Else "no siblings; being inherited by parents"
To Deceased's mother is 1/3 ? verse 411
o End IF
? Else IF Deceased has no parents THEN
Kalalah verse 4176 is applied
? End IF
End IF

Accordingly, no share is unknown.

father, brothers {two unknowns} - father 1/6, brother 5/6 verse 411
mother, sister {two unknowns} - mother 1/6, sister 5/6 verse 411

mother, sister, brother {two unknowns} - mother 1/6, sister 1/25/6, brother 1/25/6 verse 411
father, 2 sisters, brother {three unknowns} father 1/6, each sister 1/45/6, brother 1/2 5/6 verse 411

wife, mother, father, sister, brother {three unknowns} - wife 1/4, mother & father each 1/63/4, sister & brother each 1/4 (1/21/2"remainder&quot - spouse use verse 412, rest as per verse 411

husband, mother, father, 2 sisters, brother {three unknowns} - husband 1/2, mother and father each 1/61/2, each sister 1/41/6, brother 1/2*1/6 - spouse use verse 412, rest as per verse 411

Peace

unknownuser

Peace mmmouhammad,

a. Siblings will inherit as alternatives to children along with any or both of their parents.

Accordingly, no share is unknown.

father, brothers {two unknowns} - father 1/6, brother 5/6 verse 411
mother, sister {two unknowns} - mother 1/6, sister 5/6 verse 411

411...and to his PARENTS, to each one from them the 1/6 from what he left, if for him was a child

There is no child in those examples; how does the father and mother get 1/6?

mother, sister, brother {two unknowns} - mother 1/6, sister 1/25/6, brother 1/25/6 verse 411
father, 2 sisters, brother {three unknowns} father 1/6, each sister 1/45/6, brother 1/2 5/6 verse 411

wife, mother, father, sister, brother {three unknowns} - wife 1/4, mother & father each 1/63/4, sister & brother each 1/4 (1/21/2"remainder&quot - spouse use verse 412, rest as per verse 411

husband, mother, father, 2 sisters, brother {three unknowns} - husband 1/2, mother and father each 1/61/2, each sister 1/41/6, brother 1/2*1/6 - spouse use verse 412, rest as per verse 411

You are suggesting distributions are applicable to siblings when verse clearly says to children?

411
he directs you God in your CHILDREN
to the male equal luck the two females
so if they are women over two, so for them two thirds what he left,
and if she was one, so for her the half?

mmouhammad

Peace mmmouhammad,

411...and to his PARENTS, to each one from them the 1/6 from what he left, if for him was a child

There is no child in those examples; how does the father and mother get 1/6?

You are suggesting distributions are applicable to siblings when verse clearly says to children?

411
he directs you God in your CHILDREN
to the male equal luck the two females
so if they are women over two, so for them two thirds what he left,
and if she was one, so for her the half?

Peace Eid,

Verse 411 but if has siblings then to mother is 1/6 - what do you understand from this reduction of mother's share from 1/3 when has no children to 1/6 when has siblings?.

We both agree that verse 412 is Kalalah with children, that is spouse inherits first, then no parents therefore God allocates to siblings an equal amount to what would have been parents share if they were alive, the 1/3. Compare it to siblings' case in verse 411 read with fresh mind after answering why reducing mother's share 1/6 when deceased has siblings.

By the way, sibling/siblings mean sister or brother 1 to n regardless of gender. The term ikhwatun in Arabic is used when gender and number of sibling are unknown.

The conditions of Verse 411 are applicable in all cases where gender and number of inheritors are not specified. Have you not seen God uses them in both Kalalah verses?

Moreover, aren't deceased siblings mean children to his parents when inheriting with them, so he directs you God in your CHILDREN, is applicable to the inheriting parents and their children "deceased siblings"

nwryn

Salaam Eid,

I once had a theory that - from what meant fixed and - what meant variable in order to support using algebra normalization of shares which exceeded total inheritance. That did not work out to be consistent.

As in Ockham's razor line of reasoning the simplest view is most likely correct thus read verbatim.

Seems both fa-in (so if) and wa-in (and if) are ELSE IF case separators.

Yes, you're right; I see now that where "wa" is used to begin a new section, it is not followed by "in", so wa-in is like fa-in.

Yes the Arabic is masculine language; for him in verse applies also for her...

...say "God decrees in alkalalati, if human died, not for him a child, and for him a sister

sister, mother
1 - 1/2 sister = 1/2 mother

Likewise in 411 his, he, him apply equally to she and her.

411 and to his parents, to each one from them the sixth from what he left, if for him was a child (waladun), so if was not for him a child, and his parents inherited him, so to his mother the third, so if brothers were for him

Grammar rules as we have today are useless in most cases there was no written standard at the time.

OK. Why does it say "he inherits her" rather than "he inherits him" in 4176?

This is like asking "do you have brothers and children?" How would a person in most languages who has only one brother or one child reply? If only plural 411 would be inapplicable for all cases with one child as an example.

Therefore, the answer to the question "do you have children?"

Would be correct to answer YES -- if one child.

You know the "waladun" in 411, is it singular? If so, then why does it not say "a brother" instead of "ikhwatun", if the statement is about having at least one brother?

I believe so -- browse
http//www.openburhan.net/ob_w.php?w=3292

The destitute who are in need are
http//www.openburhan.net/ob_w.php?w=9811

OK thanks, I'll have a look later.

Children fatherless are considered orphans.

Children only inherit from the father?

nwryn

The above has me pondering for a while with key difference being in 4176 ikhwatan rijalan wanisaan is specified.

2+ siblings mixed (i.e. at least 1 brother + 1 or more sisters)
OR
3+ siblings mixed (i.e. at least 1 brother + 2 or more sisters) distributed at 21 ratio male female

Have work out all combinations on this.

I have a problem with the 21 malefemale ratio thing. The same phrase is used in 411, but we're not interpreting it as a ratio in that instance. I think the "two females" is referring to something specific, rather than being just an abstract concept.

Peace

nwryn

Salaam Noreen

Parents and spouses are dealt with in 411 and 412 respectively, with all the possibilities and the legitmate heirs who can have a share with them, including siblings.

Verse 4176 is exclusively for siblings when they are alone. No parents nor spouses are mentioned in this verse, and of course no children are ever mentioned with siblings and vise versa children curtail the right of siblings to inherit.

Salaam Samia,

Parents and spouses are not mentioned in 4176, but children (or the lack thereof) are, c.f. 412. So, don't you think that 4176 deals with a special case of kalaalah, where there are no children? Mother's and spouse's shares are fixed by 411-12 (except in the case of no father and no brother) ... so there is no need to mention them in 4176. I do have to say though, that it does seem a bit odd to use 4176 to determine mother's share when there are no brothers (and no father, assuming kalaalah = fatherless), but that does not mean that it is wrong.

Is your understanding of 411 that siblings may inherit in the presence of parents (and absence of children), but that this is not a kalaalah case? Do they inherit 1/6? How is this shared out amongst the siblings? Brothers' and sisters' shares are only specified in kalaalah cases. Shouldn't this mean that siblings only inherit from kalaalah?

Siblings aren't mentioned in the section on children, but neither are spouses nor are parents. Parents' shares in the presence and absence of children are mainly talked about in 411. Spouses' shares, with and without children, are mentioned fully in 412. Siblings' shares from kalaalah are in 412 for presence of children and 4176 for absence of children.

What does "his parents inherited him" mean? Does it not mean a special case where the father is present, i.e. the mentioning of the mother's share does not necessarily mean that the father is present?

nwryn

Peace all,

This is a theory I have, assuming that kalaalah means "fatherless".

Each new section begins with "wa" (but not "wa-in&quot, when it is needed as a separator. These sections are

Children
Parents/mother in certain scenarios
Husbands
Wives
Siblings in presence of children
Siblings and possibly mother in absence of children

Sections 2, 3, 4 and 5 all end with "mim ba'di wasiyyatin yoosee bihaa aw daynin" or a variation that agrees gramatically. Therefore these shares are fixed shares from the whole.

Sections 1 and 6 do not contain or end with that statement. Therefore, these are not fixed shares from the whole, but rules for dividing the remainder amongst the remaining legitimate heirs whose shares are not fixed. Of course, section 6 does not come into the picture when section 1 is being used, and vice versa.

I see no reason for kalaalah to mean "spouseless".

Samia

Salaam Samia,

Parents and spouses are not mentioned in 4176, but children (or the lack thereof) are, c.f. 412. So, don't you think that 4176 deals with a special case of kalaalah, where there are no children?

Salaam Nooreen
Kalala does not have children nor parents, but siblings.
4176 is a special case of kalala where there is no spouse (because a kalala can have a spouse).
However, a non kalala may have siblings who will inherit with the deceased parents (verse 411).

Inheritance verses deal with parents, so we should not presume that there is no father just because only the mother is mentioned. This is a rule in the inheritance verses which we clearly see when they deal with children and only mention the female/s share (verse 411).

Is your understanding of 411 that siblings may inherit in the presence of parents (and absence of children),

No. My understanding is that siblings of the deceased do not inherit in the presence of his/her children. The only heirs that inherit with children of the deceased are the parents and the spouse of the deceased.

Siblings aren't mentioned in the section on children, but neither are spouses nor are parents.

Parents are mentioned in the section of the children (411), and their share is mentioned in both cases of presence or absence of children. Spouses are mentioned in the section about spouses in their share is also determined by presence or absence of children. You can never find share of siblings dependent on "presence" of children, because siblings inherit only in absence of children.

Siblings' shares from kalaalah are in 412 for presence of children and 4176 for absence of children.

I do not agree. Share of kalala siblings is mentioned in case of presence of spouse in (412) which is the part dedicated to spouses, and in case they are the sole heirs; i. e absence of spouse in 4176. In 4176, nobody is mentioned other than siblings, so, and their share is not dependent on anything other than their number, so let's not presume that other heirs exist here, otherwise their existance should affect the siblings' share.

What does "his parents inherited him" mean? Does it not mean a special case where the father is present, i.e. the mentioning of the mother's share does not necessarily mean that the father is present?

I believe that the verses of inheritance do not deal with cases of only one parent nor with only one gender of siblings/children. Whenever a female is mentioned, the male counterpart is presumed exists.

Union

Peace all,
I see no reason for kalaalah to mean "spouseless".

Salam Nwryn . Then please distribute

Wife + Sister

Also mention your supporting verse...

Union

Salaam Nooreen

However, a non kalala may have siblings who will inherit with the deceased parents (verse 411).

Salam Samia . Then please distribute

wife+ mother+ father+ sister+ brother