Resolving apparent contradictions in the Quran

1CELOSTNOWFOUND

Peace

Any more examples/verses for/about these? If you show some, I could help you clarify the alleged problems/contradictions.

Maybe we should start with the one I mentioned & go from there.

Imraan

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Can you post the verses or give the reference for the thing with Moses?
Thanks.

1CELOSTNOWFOUND

Peace

1877 & 1882.

Imraan

afridi220

Can you post the verses or give the reference for the thing with Moses?
Thanks.

1882 And in respect of the wall - it belonged to two orphan boys of the city, and beneath it was their treasure, and their father was a virtuous man; therefore your Lord willed that they should reach their maturity and remove their treasure; by the mercy of your Lord; and I have not done this at my own command; this is the interpretation of the matters you could not patiently bea

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

1877 So they ventured forth until they came to the people of a town. They requested food from its people but they refused to host them. Then they found a wall which was close to collapsing, so he built it. He said, "If you wished, you could have asked a wage for it!"

1882 "As for the wall, it belonged to two orphaned boys in the city, and underneath it was a treasure for them, and their father was a good man, so your Lord wanted that they would reach their maturity and take out their treasure as a mercy from your Lord. None of what I did was of my own accord. That is the meaning of what you could not have patience for."

2219 They ask you about intoxicants and gambling. Say, "In them is great harm, and a benefit for people; but their harm is greater than their benefit." They ask you how much are they to give, say, "The excess." Thus, God clarifies for you the signs that you may reflect.

2219 doesnt talk about zakat. It is talking about sadaqah.
Where is the contradiction? Furthermore, the treasure is described as "a mercy from your lord".

1CELOSTNOWFOUND

Peace

2219 doesnt talk about zakat. It is talking about sadaqah.
Where is the contradiction? Furthermore, the treasure is described as "a mercy from your lord".

I never said anything about zakaat. What is your understanding of the difference between zakaat & sadaqah?

The point about the treasure is that their was "saalih". Yet he accumulated wealth beyond his needs. I see a clear contradiction between accumulating wealth & spending what is beyond your needs or the excess.

Imraan

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

I never said anything about zakaat. What is your understanding of the difference between zakaat & sadaqah?

Zakat = contribution towards betterment (obligatory)
Sadaqah = Redemption/expiation donation (not obligatory)

The point about the treasure is that their was "saalih". Yet he accumulated wealth beyond his needs. I see a clear contradiction between accumulating wealth & spending what is beyond your needs or the excess.

First of all we must know, that there are no contradictions in the Quran.

482 Do they not reflect on the Quran? If it were from any other than God they would have found many contradictions in it.

We must improve our understanding and ask God for an increased knowledge. We shouldnt be hasty in making conclusions with things we are not sure about.

20114 Then High above all is God, the King, the Truth. Do not be hasty with the Quran before its inspiration is completed to you, and say, "My Lord, increase my knowledge."

Now back to the subject

1882 "As for the wall, it belonged to two orphaned boys in the city, and underneath it was a treasure for them, and their father was an upright man, so your Lord wanted that they would reach their maturity and take out their treasure as a mercy from your Lord. None of what I did was of my own accord. That is the meaning of what you could not have patience for."

Do you still see a contradiction?

Mazhar

In 2219 we find that we should spend that which is beyond our needs,

The confusion or contradiction emerged because of this translation. Read in conjunction with the instructions on the subject given at other places and the point will become evidently clear. Read it like this
And they ask you as to what is that they should spend. Tell them, "whatever you can spare".

1CELOSTNOWFOUND

Peace

Zakat = contribution towards betterment (obligatory)
Sadaqah = Redemption/expiation donation (not obligatory)

I agree that zakaat is obligatory. I was wondering what your reason is for saying so & why do you say sadaqah is not obligatory?

First of all we must know, that there are no contradictions in the Quran.

482 Do they not reflect on the Quran? If it were from any other than God they would have found many contradictions in it.

We must make improve out understanding and ask God for an increased knowledge. We shouldnt be hasty in making conclusions with things we are not sure about.

20114 Then High above all is God, the King, the Truth. Do not be hasty with the Quran before its inspiration is completed to you, and say, "My Lord, increase my knowledge."

I don't believe that there are contradictions in the quran. Hence the topic reads "apparent" contradictions. It is for this very reason that I tried to investigate these apparent contradictions.

Now back to the subject

1882 "As for the wall, it belonged to two orphaned boys in the city, and underneath it was a treasure for them, and their father was an upright man, so your Lord wanted that they would reach their maturity and take out their treasure as a mercy from your Lord. None of what I did was of my own accord. That is the meaning of what you could not have patience for."

Do you still see a contradiction?

Still, why did the "saalih" man accumulate wealth beyond his needs? If we are to spend the excess, then we wouldn't have anything to accumulate. But I think we may be closer to resolving this once we establish why you think that sadqah is not obligatory.

Imraan

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

I agree that zakaat is obligatory. I was wondering what your reason is for saying so & why do you say sadaqah is not obligatory?

It's an expiation/redemtion donation/charity.

2196 Complete the Pilgrimage and the visit for God. But, if you are prevented, then make what is affordable of donation, and do not shave your heads until the donation reaches its destination. Whoever of you is ill or has an affliction to his head, then he may redeem by fasting or giving a charity (sadaqah) or a sacrifice. But if you are able, then whoever continues the visit until the Pilgrimage, then he shall provide what is affordable of donation. If one cannot find anything, then he must fast for three days during the Pilgrimage and seven when he returns; this will make a complete ten; this is for those whose family is not present at the Restricted Temple. Be conscientious of God, and know that God is severe in retribution.

I don't believe that there are contradictions in the quran. Hence the topic reads "apparent" contradictions. It is for this very reason that I tried to investigate these apparent contradictions.

I was just saying...

Still, why did the "saalih" man accumulate wealth beyond his needs? If we are to spend the excess, then we wouldn't have anything to accumulate. But I think we may be closer to resolving this once we establish why you think that sadqah is not obligatory.

"salih" man = upright man

The orphans got the treasure/part of it when they reached maturity.

1882 "As for the wall, it belonged to two orphaned boys in the city, and underneath it was a treasure for them, and their father was an upright man, so your Lord wanted that they would reach their maturity and take out their treasure as a mercy from your Lord. None of what I did was of my own accord. That is the meaning of what you could not have patience for."

Besides, how do you know that they didnt donate some of it?
Also, why are they obliged to do so?

Peace

Samia

Still, why did the "saalih" man accumulate wealth beyond his needs? If we are to spend the excess, then we wouldn't have anything to accumulate. But I think we may be closer to resolving this once we establish why you think that sadqah is not obligatory.

Imraan

Who says the man accumulated wealth "beyond his needs"?
Why are you translating "kanz" as wealth? Kanz is simply "money buried in the ground"

1CELOSTNOWFOUND

Peace

It's an expiation/redemtion donation/charity.

2196 Complete the Pilgrimage and the visit for God. But, if you are prevented, then make what is affordable of donation, and do not shave your heads until the donation reaches its destination. Whoever of you is ill or has an affliction to his head, then he may redeem by fasting or giving a charity (sadaqah) or a sacrifice. But if you are able, then whoever continues the visit until the Pilgrimage, then he shall provide what is affordable of donation. If one cannot find anything, then he must fast for three days during the Pilgrimage and seven when he returns; this will make a complete ten; this is for those whose family is not present at the Restricted Temple. Be conscientious of God, and know that God is severe in retribution.

I think that this is a very narrow understanding of sadaqah. Look at the other verses where sadaqah appears, and also its root verb meaning & I think you will find that sadaqah is the right a person has.

"salih" man = upright man

The orphans got the treasure/part of it when they reached maturity.

1882 "As for the wall, it belonged to two orphaned boys in the city, and underneath it was a treasure for them, and their father was an upright man, so your Lord wanted that they would reach their maturity and take out their treasure as a mercy from your Lord. None of what I did was of my own accord. That is the meaning of what you could not have patience for."

Besides, how do you know that they didnt donate some of it?
Also, why are they obliged to do so?

It does not matter whether or not they donated anything if we don't look at the quran as having different injunctions for different stages of community development because then they could have donated if it was appropriate to the stage of development their community was in. However, if the community was in a different stage of development, they may have been required to give over the excess. Besides, I am not referring to the youths, I am referring to their father who had accumulated this wealth. He obviously did not give the excess, yet he was upright.

Anyway, the reason that I asked about the sadaqah being obligatory or not is that we find in 9103 there is an instruction to take sadaqah from their wealth. This is an instruction as far as I understand it. Therefore we see that this is something that must be taken if it is not given.

Imraan

1CELOSTNOWFOUND

Peace Samia

Who says the man accumulated wealth "beyond his needs"?
Why are you translating "kanz" as wealth? Kanz is simply "money buried in the ground"

I don't think that it matters whether it is wealth or money buried underground. The point is that he had more than he required. If we say that it was not beyond what he needed, then I would concede that this does not pose a contradiction to 2219.

This discussion is not only about these verses though. There is still the issue of 2219 & the verses pertaining to distribution of the estate in the event that there is no will or the will does not account for all the assets. I don't understand how we can distribute to our heirs that which we don't have. Unless maybe all that is to be distributed is what we required for our needs & therefore did not spend it.

The issue here is whether or not different verses apply to different times of the development of a community on the same issue.

There are also apparent contradictions in the case instructions in the quran regarding slaves. We are told how to deal with slaves & yet slavery was obviously abolished.

So what I am saying here is that the same subject in the quran may have different instructions depending on the stage of development a community is in. This would enable a community at any stage of its development to start making the necessary changes slowly in order to attain the quranic ideal.

Imraan

1CELOSTNOWFOUND

Peace Mazhar

The confusion or contradiction emerged because of this translation. Read in conjunction with the instructions on the subject given at other places and the point will become evidently clear. Read it like this
And they ask you as to what is that they should spend. Tell them, "whatever you can spare".

Can you justify this interpretation linguistically?

Imraan

1CELOSTNOWFOUND

Peace progressive

Sadaqah = Redemption/expiation donation (not obligatory)

If we look at 960, we see that sadaqah is described as "fareedah" (from fard), which if I am not mistaken means compulsory.

If his is the case, how do we reconcile this with verses that indicate sadqah being optional?

Imraan

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

I think that this is a very narrow understanding of sadaqah. Look at the other verses where sadaqah appears, and also its root verb meaning & I think you will find that sadaqah is the right a person has.

"Other verses" - which?

It does not matter whether or not they donated anything if we don't look at the quran as having different injunctions for different stages of community development because then they could have donated if it was appropriate to the stage of development their community was in. However, if the community was in a different stage of development, they may have been required to give over the excess. Besides, I am not referring to the youths, I am referring to their father who had accumulated this wealth. He obviously did not give the excess, yet he was upright.

I still need to think about this one.

Anyway, the reason that I asked about the sadaqah being obligatory or not is that we find in 9103 there is an instruction to take sadaqah from their wealth. This is an instruction as far as I understand it. Therefore we see that this is something that must be taken if it is not given.

Read in context, and you will see that it confirms my viewpoint

997 The Arabs are the worst in rejection and hypocrisy, and more likely not to know the limits of what God has sent down upon His messenger. God is Knower, Wise.

998 From the Arabs are some who look upon what they spend as a fine, and wait for disasters to befall you. They will have the evil disasters, and God is Hearer, Knowledgeable.

999 From the Arabs there is he who acknowledges God and the Last day, and considers his spending as a means towards God, and the support of the messenger. It indeed makes them closer. God will admit them in His mercy; God is Forgiving, Compassionate.

9100 The pioneers of the emigrants and the supporters, and those who followed them in kindness; God has accepted them, and they have accepted Him; and He prepared for them gardens with rivers flowing beneath in which they will abide eternally. Such is the great success.

9101 Among the Arabs around you are hypocrites, as well as from the city people; they are audacious in hypocrisy. You do not know them, but We know them. We will punish them twice, then they will be returned to a great punishment.

9102 Others who have acknowledged their sins, they have mixed good work with bad. Perhaps God will pardon them. God is Forgiving, Compassionate.

9103 Take from their money a charity to purify them and improve them with it, and support them. Your support is tranquility for them; and God is Hearer, Knower.

Peace

Samia

Salaam ICELOSTNOWFOUND

I am not sure if I understand what you mean exactly. Spending what is in access is not equivalent to spending all we have. And you do not spend it all on the first "beggar" or needy, or spend it all in one instant; nor does one receive all their wealth in one go.
Sorry, I seem to explain the obvious, but as I said, I do not understand what you mean.

There are also apparent contradictions in the case instructions in the quran regarding slaves. We are told how to deal with slaves & yet slavery was obviously abolished.

If there are instructions regarding slaves, yes I agree there would be contradiction. Since we agree that there shouldn't be any contradiction in the qur'aan, then maybe our understanding that these are "slaves" is wrong, especially that the word "slave" is not used.
I do not think that in the qur'aan there are any instructions concerning slaves.

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

I do not think that in the qur'aan there are any instructions concerning slaves.

9010 We guided him to both paths?
9011 But he hardly tries the uphill road.
9012 And what could make thee conceive what it is, that steep uphill road?
9013 The freeing of slaves
9014 Or the feeding on a day of great hardship
9015 An orphan of relation
9016 Or a poor person in need

Also look at http//www.submission.org/islam/slavery.html

1CELOSTNOWFOUND

Peace Samia

I am not sure if I understand what you mean exactly. Spending what is in access is not equivalent to spending all we have. And you do not spend it all on the first "beggar" or needy, or spend it all in one instant; nor does one receive all their wealth in one go.
Sorry, I seem to explain the obvious, but as I said, I do not understand what you mean.

What I am trying to say is that there are times in a community's development when they are steeped in the shackles of the wealthy holding most of the wealth. In this situation, a reformer would first try & get these wealthy people to assist people get their most basic needs. From there, additional reforms may be suggested, ultimately culminating in the stage where people are "mu'minoon" & will therefore uphold verses such as 9111 where they give over themselves & their wealth to God in exchange for the Jannah. In such a case, they will distribute their wealth in a way that they use what is now God's wealth to uphold the promise that God made to take care of the rizq of all living things. THis has many dimensions, which I don't want to go into now. This stage is when the community of mu'minoon will ensure that the needs of all its members are taken care of.

It is not a matter of spending it all on the first beggar you meet, but rather that the community will ensure that through this the needs of every beggar is taken care of in such a way that there are no longer beggars in that community. This does not simply consist of trying to dish out money, but rather ensuring that all members of the community are empowered & that the work of each member of the community is valued according to quran rather than the whims of mankind.

Imraan

1CELOSTNOWFOUND

Peace progressive

"Other verses" - which?

I have already posted some. Here are a few others

2263/264/271/276, 958/60/79/104, 44/114, 37105, 5813 among many others.