Quran inheritance mistake

Union

Salaam Samia,

Her share was determined 412 & 4176 and with a father; she gets nothing.

I don't see that anywhere in Qur'an, sounds like a ruling by Samia...lol

The main reason this thread was started.

There is only the mother left as a possibility.

Does not work as with the children; key difference being cannot have two cases with two females. The women 1/2 or 2/3 are alone have to share with someone that being the mother.

1 sister, mother 1 - 1/2 sister = 1/2 mother
2+ sisters, mother 1 - 2/3 sisters = 1/3 mother

4176
They ask your clarification, say "God decrees in Al-Kallati, if human died, not for him a child,
and for him a sister, so for her half what he left, and he inherits her if was not for her a child,
and if they were two, so to them the two thirds from what he left,
and if they were brethren men and women, so to the male equal fortune the two females,
God clarifies for you that you (not) be misguided, and God is with every thing knowledgeable.

Peace

Salam AbduAllah . So far I didn't see any disorder in your understanding of Kelala . If sister Samia could have brought practical examples for each of his theory as you did everytime , may be something different (if it really exists) could have been realized . I am in the position of such definition of Kelala where all the shares must add up to 01 .

Allah knows the best .

Thanks .

Samia

411 ?if he has siblings (Ikhwatun) then to his mother is one sixth. => not applicable .

Then what left for your justification of giving mother 1/6 from 411 ??

Salaam Union
How is it not applicable when you are just saying it 411 "if he has siblings then to his mother is one sixth"?!
If you are asking about the father, I just don't undertand how you read the verse 411
"For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to each, if the deceased left children; if no children, and the parents are the (only) heirs, the mother has a third; if the deceased Left brothers (or sisters) the mother has a sixth. (The distribution in all cases ('s) after the payment of legacies and debts. Ye know not whether your parents or your children are nearest to you in benefit. These are settled portions ordained by Allah; and Allah is All-knowing, Al-wise."

If there are children, 1/6th for each.
If the parents are the only heirs, the mother gets 1/3 (by logic the father gets 2/3, though not explicitely mentioned)
If they are not the only heirs (there are siblings) the mother gets 1/6 (and by analogy the father gets the double, i.e 2/6 = 1/3).

Instead of assuming what is the definition of Kalala first , you should search the evidence of distribution from the verses and only then you can reach to your decision .

The definition of kelala is xtremely important because it will show if someone is eligible to inherit or not. If you understand kelala as only parentless; then you will give a share to siblings when there are children. Shares will still add up to 100% since children do not have a determined percentage of the wealth but get the remaining.
For example
mother, son, dughter, brother.

Your distribution based on your definition of kelala will be
Mother 1/6; sister 1/2 (or 1/6, depending on whichever verse you use 412 or 4176) and children get the rest.
My distribution based on my understanding of kelala will be
Mother 1/6, children get the remainder and siblings get nothing.

Another result of not considering the definition of kelala important is giving the sister 1/6 as you just did, when there's a mother You are giving the sister of a standard deceased person (where 411 should be applicable) the share of sister of kelala (where you are applying 412).
Remember that siblings are mentioned in all three verses, with different defined shares or undefined shares. Unless you know who they are inheriting (kelala or not) and whether they can inherit or not; you cannot determine which verse to apply.

Union

Salaam Union
How is it not applicable when you are just saying it 411 "if he has siblings then to his mother is one sixth"?!
If you are asking about the father, I just don't undertand how you read the verse 411
"For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to each, if the deceased left children; if no children, and the parents are the (only) heirs, the mother has a third; if the deceased Left brothers (or sisters) the mother has a sixth. (The distribution in all cases ('s) after the payment of legacies and debts. Ye know not whether your parents or your children are nearest to you in benefit. These are settled portions ordained by Allah; and Allah is All-knowing, Al-wise."

If there are children, 1/6th for each.
If the parents are the only heirs, the mother gets 1/3 (by logic the father gets 2/3, though not explicitely mentioned)
If they are not the only heirs (there are siblings) the mother gets 1/6 (and by analogy the father gets the double, i.e 2/6 = 1/3).

Walaikumsalam Wa RahmatuAllah dear Samia .

The case we are dealing with Father + Mother + Sister

Peace Samia,

Please clarify...

IF parents no spouse ? do siblings inherit?
mother, father, sister (which verse 412 or 4176)

And in the verse 411 , the Arabic term ?Ikhwatun? cancels the existence of only sister

Salaam Union, all

"ikhwatun" is plural. It can't be a brother. It can be a brother and a sister, or more than two brothers (minimum definition).

And that?s how it is not applicable for the example we were trying to clarify .

mother, son, dughter, brother.

Your distribution based on your definition of kelala will be
Mother 1/6; sister 1/2 (or 1/6, depending on whichever verse you use 412 or 4176) and children get the rest.

411 .. to his parents each one of them one sixth of what is inherited if he has children?.
Mother 1/6

412 ?If a man or a woman has no one, but has a brother or
sister, then to each one of them is one
sixth?..
Sister 1/6
Sister1/2 of 4176 is not applicable since this case is without children

Children is rest 1-(1/6+1/6) = 2/3 (FM =11 ratio)

Is it not simple , convenient and logical to follow using verse by verse ?

My distribution based on my understanding of kelala will be
Mother 1/6, children get the remainder and siblings get nothing.

Your distribution has a good effect of preconception of Kalala and hence not convenient to a casual reader to understand its definition from Qur?an as it represents . As I told you in this regard

Salam Samia .

Instead why not use Almighty God?s hints to have a clue to differentiate between 1/6 or ? share of sister .

4176 They ask your opinion , say "God decrees in the man or woman being Kalala , if man/human died, not for him a child, and for him a sister, so for her half what he left,

Hence God?s wisdom is pulling us condition of ?no children? for Kalala to have his sister ? . Keeping the same logical observation in mind it will be more safe to think of sister?s share 1/6 incase of Kalala when ?with children? .

Also this conclusion will offer a 100% accurate distribution of share to related to it (add up to 01 , not less than or greater than 01 which happened to be found in your proposal )

Another result of not considering the definition of kelala important is giving the sister 1/6 as you just did, when there's a mother You are giving the sister of a standard deceased person (where 411 should be applicable) the share of sister of kelala (where you are applying 412).
Remember that siblings are mentioned in all three verses, with different defined shares or undefined shares. Unless you know who they are inheriting (kelala or not) and whether they can inherit or not; you cannot determine which verse to apply.

As we found in the verse

411 ?if he has siblings (Ikhwatun) then to his mother is one sixth.

Which rendering rationally that if siblings are getting shares under Kelala condition , there is a valid possibility of mother?s share simultaneously . In other word mother does exist for a deceased Kalala person . Please try to run each and every possible share covering this phenomenon and you will see no disorder .

Therefore , If Mother + Sister is the case , it can be a Kealal case

4176
They ask your clarification, say "God decrees in Al-Kallati, if human died, not for him a child, and for him a sister, so for her half what he left,..

Sister = ? and Mother =1/2

Thanks .

Samia

And in the verse 411 , the Arabic term ?Ikhwatun? cancels the existence of only sister
And that?s how it is not applicable for the example we were trying to clarify .

Salaam Union
Regarding my post you quoted. I later clarified my mistake here

Salaam Eid
I know where you are going ;D. My response was based on an isolated word not in a context. This is exactly like "awlaad" or "walad" in verse 411. It could be any number or gender of children. But if you ask me what "awlaad" is, I will answer the same way I answered for "ikhwatun"

So ikhwatun and awlaadukum are bothe plurals "linguistically", but in the context, it's any number from one, any gender.

411 .. to his parents each one of them one sixth of what is inherited if he has children?.
Mother 1/6

412 ?If a man or a woman has no one, but has a brother or
sister, then to each one of them is one
sixth?..
Sister 1/6
Sister1/2 of 4176 is not applicable since this case is without children

Children is rest 1-(1/6+1/6) = 2/3 (FM =11 ratio)

Is it not simple , convenient and logical to follow using verse by verse ?

Isn't this what I expected to be your distribution?
You are using 411 for mother of a deceased who is not kelala; then you are using the share for a sister in 412 for a deceased who is a kelala. Tell me is your deceased a kelala or not? Because he/she cannot be both.
Maybe it is simple, convenient (no need to think too much) but definitely not logical using any verse. This is why I said it's important to decide what the deceased is to see who inherits and who does not, and this calls for a correct definition of kelala.

Your distribution has a good effect of preconception of Kalala and hence not convenient to a casual reader to understand its definition from Qur?an as it represents

No one can understand any definition of kelala from a distribution of wealth. It's the other way rund one should know the efinition then they will understand the distribution.

As we found in the verse

411 ?if he has siblings (Ikhwatun) then to his mother is one sixth.

Which rendering rationally that if siblings are getting shares under Kelala condition , there is a valid possibility of mother?s share simultaneously . In other word mother does exist for a deceased Kalala person . Please try to run each and every possible share covering this phenomenon and you will see no disorder .

Therefore , If Mother + Sister is the case , it can be a Kealal case

Verse 411 never mentions a kelala. From the beginning it's speaking of a standard deceased. Otherwise, you are making all deceased kelala, since the kelala is mentioned in the other two verses.

It's also the only verse mentioning shares of children and parents.
The other two verses mention shares of spouses and shares of siblings (as well as 411)
Doesn't this tell you something?

Where kelala is mentioned, parents and children are not (412; 4176)
Where parents and children are mentioned, kelala is not (411)

Isn't it so simple, convenient and logical to conclude from this that a kelala is parentless and childless?

4176
They ask your clarification, say "God decrees in Al-Kallati, if human died, not for him a child, and for him a sister, so for her half what he left,..

Sister = ? and Mother =1/2

Where do you read "mother" in 4176? Why not a father or both parents?
Why are you giving the "alleged mother" half? Where does the mother gets a half any way?
We already have the case of parents with and without children; and with siblings (411). None of them gives the mother a half.
Moreover, in the same verse (4176), what if the siblings were more than three? (if there are brothers and sisters, (they share), the male having the share of the two females)? how to distribute two unknowns?

unknownuser

Salaam Samia,

You are using 411 for mother of a deceased who is not kelala; then you are using the share for a sister in 412 for a deceased who is a kelala. Tell me is your deceased a kelala or not? Because he/she cannot be both.

412 Kallatan (i.e. loner) no father, no spouse
4176 Al-Kallati (i.e. the loner) no father, no spouse, no child

Isn't it so simple, convenient and logical to conclude from this that a kelala is parentless and childless?

if parent-less and childless, sister 1/2 or two sisters 2/3 in 4176 never comes in play without contradiction.

Where do you read "mother" in 4176? Why not a father or both parents?

Father cannot enter 4176 with siblings and would contradict

if parents, mother 1/3 (411) + 2/3 two sisters = 0 father
if father + brother unknown how to distribute
if father + brethren/Ikhwatun mixed unknown how to distribute or what amount to give the father

Spouse cannot enter 4176 with siblings and would contradict

if husband 1/2 + 2/3 two sisters = 1 1/6 too much

2 sisters = 2/3
Why are you giving the "alleged mother" half? Where does the mother gets a half any way?

It says 1/2 one sister and 2/3 two sisters, they have to share with someone and only the mother can enter the verse without contradiction -- no child, no father, if brethren (i.e. at least a male/brother then fixed at 1/6 else share is variable).

1+ brother, mother 1 - 1/6 mother = 5/6 brother/s

1 sister, mother 1 - 1/2 sister = 1/2 mother

2+ sisters, mother 1 - 2/3 sisters = 1/3 mother

We already have the case of parents with and without children; and with siblings (411). None of them gives the mother a half.
Moreover, in the same verse (4176), what if the siblings were more than three? (if there are brothers and sisters, (they share), the male having the share of the two females)? how to distribute two unknowns?

Not two unknowns, it's a ratio of 12 each male gets twice that of a female 2f = m or f = 1/2m

Cannot use ratios as with children due to the word "fawqa" is missing.

Simply follow the fa-in/wa-in switch case ELSE IF AND IF logic...

he directs you God in your CHILDREN
to the male equal luck the two females
Fa?in ELSE IF they are women Fawqa/above two, so for them two thirds what left/M Taraka,
Wa ?In AND IF she was one, so for her the half
and to his parents, to each one from them the sixth from what left/Mimm Taraka, if for him was a child
Fa?in ELSE IF was not for him a child, and his parents inherited him, so to his mother the third,
Fa?in ELSE IF brethren/Ikhwatun were for him, so to his mother the sixth

and for you half what left/M Taraka your wives/Azwjukum, if is not for them a child,
Fa?in ELSE IF was for them a child, so for you the quarter from what they left/Mimm Tarakna from after a bequest/will
and for them the quarter from what you left/Mimm Taraktum, if was not for you a child,
Fa?in ELSE IF was for you a child, so for them the eight from what you left/Mimm Taraktum from after a bequest/will
Wa ?In AND IF was a Rajulun/man to be inherited Kallatan or a woman-spouse/'AwAmra'atun, and for him a brother, or a sister, so for each one from them the sixth,
Fa?in ELSE IF they were more than that, so they are partners in the third

They ask your clarification, say "God decrees in Al-Kallati, if human died/'Ini Amru'uun Halaka, not for him a child,
and for him a sister, so for her half what left/M Taraka, and he inherits her if was not for her a child,
Fa?in ELSE IF they were two, so to them (F) the two thirds from what left/Mimm Taraka,
Wa ?In AND IF they were brethren men and women
so to the male equal luck the two females,
God clarifies for you that you (not) be misguided, and God is with everything knowledgeable.

Peace

Samia

Salaam Samia,

412 Kallatan (i.e. loner) no father, no spouse
4176 Al-Kallati (i.e. the loner) no father, no spouse, no child

Salaam Eid

"kalalatan" in the verse is not an indefinite noun. The verb preceding it shows it's a condition . The sentence means if a man - or a oman- being inherited when they are kalala/ in the condition that they are kalala. Moreover, what rule do you follow to give different meanings to a word just because it's definite or indefinite?

if parent-less and childless, sister 1/2 or two sisters 2/3 in 4176 never comes in play without contradiction.

As I explained my understanding before, the mere mention of just a female does not rule out the existance of the male.

Father cannot enter 4176 with siblings and would contradict

if parents, mother 1/3 (411) + 2/3 two sisters = 0 father
if father + brother unknown how to distribute
if father + brethren/Ikhwatun mixed unknown how to distribute or what amount to give the father

Spouse cannot enter 4176 with siblings and would contradict

if husband 1/2 + 2/3 two sisters = 1 1/6 too much

Again you are mixing 411 and 4176; kalala and standard. You better define the status of your deceased (kalala v standard) to decide who will inherit and thus which verse/rule to apply. Specially when dealing with siblings and spouses, as they inherit/may inherit both kinds.
How about mother + brother? Two unknowns.

Let's look at 411
If he/she has siblings, his mother gets 1/6.
In this case we do not have children, and according to you the father is not there. We are left with mother and siblings (and maybe a spouse).
Question what's the difference between the deceased in 411 and in 4176? What makes the latter kalala but not the former? Why does the mother here gets 1/6 and in 4176 you give her 1/2?

It says 1/2 one sister and 2/3 two sisters, they have to share with someone and only the mother can enter the verse without contradiction -- no child, no father, if brethren (i.e. at least a male/brother then fixed at 1/6 else share is variable).

1+ brother, mother 1 - 1/6 mother = 5/6 brother/s

1 sister, mother 1 - 1/2 sister = 1/2 mother

2+ sisters, mother 1 - 2/3 sisters = 1/3 mother

Same problem mixing kalala and non kalala verses/rules.
Why are you going back to 411 to search for the mother's share? 4176 says and he inherits her. What's your understanding of this? And according to this verse, mother (if she applies here) and brother are both unknowns.

Cannot use ratios as with children due to the word "fawqa" is missing.

I can't believe you are saying this! The meaning is put in other words (if they were siblings, men and women). Aren't these above two? We already have one F 1+ males; two F 1 or 3+ males...then "men and women" is 3+ females and 3+ males.

Side question what's the purpose of telling us about kalala if he/she has a mother, a spouse, siblings and children? What is the difference between kalala and non kalala then?

unknownuser

Salaam Samia,

"kalalatan" in the verse is not an indefinite noun. The verb preceding it shows it's a condition . The sentence means if a man - or a oman- being inherited when they are kalala/ in the condition that they are kalala. Moreover, what rule do you follow to give different meanings to a word just because it's definite or indefinite?

Has to fit each possibility without contradiction and this works with every combination

As I explained my understanding before, the mere mention of just a female does not rule out the existance of the male.
Again you are mixing 411 and 4176; kalala and standard. You better define the status of your deceased (kalala v standard) to decide who will inherit and thus which verse/rule to apply. Specially when dealing with siblings and spouses, as they inherit/may inherit both kinds.
How about mother + brother? Two unknowns.

This is why the brother's share was not mentioned in 411 and left variable.

mother, brother 1 - 1/6 mother (411) = 5/6 brother

Let's look at 411
If he/she has siblings, his mother gets 1/6.
In this case we do not have children, and according to you the father is not there. We are left with mother and siblings (and maybe a spouse).
Question what's the difference between the deceased in 411 and in 4176? What makes the latter kalala but not the former? Why does the mother here gets 1/6 and in 4176 you give her 1/2?
Same problem mixing kalala and non kalala verses/rules.
Why are you going back to 411 to search for the mother's share? 4176 says and he inherits her. What's your understanding of this? And according to this verse, mother (if she applies here) and brother are both unknowns.

Samia, please look at the logic closely; this is very detailed especially the fa-in SWITCH CASE ELSE IF...

To CHILDREN (regardless who else is alive; this is to distribute amongst children only)...

he directs you God in your CHILDREN
to the male equal luck the two females
Fa?in ELSE IF they are women Fawqa/above two, so for them two thirds what left,
Wa ?In AND IF she was one, so for her the half

btw, nun de plume (know him well...lol) had wrong diagram; should be thus...

1m 2m 3m

1f (she gets 1/2 regardless #of males)

2f (each male gets twice each female)

3f (they get 2/3 regardless #of males)

To PARENTS (nothing to do with allocating to siblings yet) check IF true and read on......

and to his parents, to each one from them the sixth from what left/Mimm Taraka, if for him was a child
Fa?in ELSE IF was not for him a child, and his parents inherited him, so to his mother the third,
Fa?in ELSE IF brethren/Ikhwatun were for him, so to his mother the sixth

To Spouses...

and for you half what left your wives/Azwjukum, if is not for them a child,
Fa?in ELSE IF was for them a child, so for you the quarter from what they left from after a bequest/will
and for them the quarter from what you left, if was not for you a child,
Fa?in ELSE IF was for you a child, so for them the eight from what you left from after a bequest/will

Kalla (no spouse, no father) with CHILD

Wa ?In AND IF was a Rajulun/man to be inherited Kallatan or a woman, and for him a brother, or a sister, so for each one from them the sixth,
Fa?in ELSE IF they were more than that, so they are partners in the third

They ask your clarification, say "God decrees in Al-Kallati, if human died, not for him a child,
and for him a sister, so for her half what left, and he inherits her if was not for her a child,
Fa?in ELSE IF they were two, so to them (F) the two thirds from what left,
Wa ?In AND IF they were brethren men and women
so to the male equal luck the two females,

God clarifies for you that you (not) be misguided, and God is with everything knowledgeable.

I can't believe you are saying this! The meaning is put in other words (if they were siblings, men and women). Aren't these above two? We already have one F 1+ males; two F 1 or 3+ males...then "men and women" is 3+ females and 3+ males.

and for him a sister, so for her 1/2 (not accompanied by a male not brethren men and women)
Fa?in ELSE IF they were two, so to them the 2/3 (no males, as above)
so to the male equal luck the two females,

We cannot do ratios for siblings as with children their are two cases with two females.

2 sisters, 1+ brothers

Do we give the two sisters 2/3 or use "to the male equal share the two females?

Side question what's the purpose of telling us about kalala if he/she has a mother, a spouse, siblings and children? What is the difference between kalala and non kalala then?

412 Kallatan no father, no spouse
4176 Al-Kallati no father, no spouse (no child stated in verse)

Peace

Samia

This is why the brother's share was not mentioned in 411 and left variable.

mother, brother 1 - 1/6 mother (411) = 5/6 brother

Salaam Eid

How did you decide that "" in 411 is a brother and not a sister or a group of sisters and brothers? What about the in 4176? Do they get 5/6th?

Samia, please look at the logic closely; this is very detailed especially the fa-in SWITCH CASE ELSE IF...

To CHILDREN (regardless who else is alive; this is to distribute amongst children only)...

he directs you God in your CHILDREN
to the male equal luck the two females
Fa?in ELSE IF they are women Fawqa/above two, so for them two thirds what left,
Wa ?In AND IF she was one, so for her the half

and he inherits her if she left no child. If there are two sisters, they shall have two-thirds of the inheritance (between them) if they were siblings, men and women, the male will have the share of the two females. Thus doth Allah make clear to you (His law), lest ye err. And Allah hath knowledge of all things. (4176)

The first "Fa'in" cannot be repeated in place of "wa'in" that follows, linguistically and meaning-wise.

btw, nun de plume (know him well...lol) had wrong diagram; should be thus...

1m 2m 3m

1f (she gets 1/2 regardless #of males)

2f (each male gets twice each female)

3f (they get 2/3 regardless #of males)

What do you mean by "regardless of males"? Regardless of whether there are males or not or regardless their number?
BTW, Nun de plume was not putting numbers, but reatios
And the verse does not say "each male gets twice each female", but "to the male a share similar of that of the two females. There's a difference.

so to the male equal luck the two females,

We cannot do ratios for siblings as with children their are two cases with two females.

2 sisters, 1+ brothers

This is why the verse 4176, unlike 411 says If they were siblings men and women, indicating their number as 3+ men and 3+ women at least.
Thus the distribution for a kalala without a wife (4176) is as follows
1F (and a male opposite to her) 1/2 and 1/2
2F (and one or more male) 2/3 1/3
+2F and +2 M to the male the share of the two females.
But as long as we understand that there's a mother here, we will have contradictions with verse 411 which sets the mother's share at 1/6 in absence of children and presence of siblings.
We should try to agree on the definition of kalala, otherwise any discussion is pointless.

412 Kallatan no father, no spouse
4176 Al-Kallati no father, no spouse (no child stated in verse)

giveup

unknownuser

Salaam Samia,

How did you decide that "" in 411 is a brother and not a sister or a group of sisters and brothers? What about the in 4176? Do they get 5/6th?

Brethren at least one male by himself or 1+ males with any number of females.

1+ brothers, mother 1 - 1/6 mother = 5/6 brother
2+ siblings mixed, mother 1 - 1/6 mother = 5/6 siblings (distribute 12 ration sisters to brothers)

and he inherits her if she left no child. If there are two sisters, they shall have two-thirds of the inheritance (between them) if they were siblings, men and women, the male will have the share of the two females. Thus doth Allah make clear to you (His law), lest ye err. And Allah hath knowledge of all things. (4176)

The first "Fa'in" cannot be repeated in place of "wa'in" that follows, linguistically and meaning-wise.
What do you mean by "regardless of males"? Regardless of whether there are males or not or regardless their number?

You replied to wrong verse (I post 411 above also did not sleep all night either...lol) and it's regardless of their number....

BTW, Nun de plume was not putting numbers, but reatios
And the verse does not say "each male gets twice each female", but "to the male a share similar of that of the two females. There's a difference.

This is why the verse 4176, unlike 411 says If they were siblings men and women, indicating their number as 3+ men and 3+ women at least.
Thus the distribution for a kalala without a wife (4176) is as follows
1F (and a male opposite to her) 1/2 and 1/2
2F (and one or more male) 2/3 1/3
+2F and +2 M to the male the share of the two females.
But as long as we understand that there's a mother here, we will have contradictions with verse 411 which sets the mother's share at 1/6 in absence of children and presence of siblings.
We should try to agree on the definition of kalala, otherwise any discussion is pointless. giveup

No, don't give up now and let's stay with 4176 otherwise we'll be all over the place.

You do not consider any of these combinations below as brethren men and women?

1 sister, 1 brother
1 sister, 2+ brothers

2 sisters, brother
2 sisters, 2+ brothers

Your argument is 4176 is only for siblings; therefore, no parents, no spouse, and no children (stated in the verse);
Here are all the possibilities; please let me know if this looks correct to you...

1 sister, 1 brother so for her 1/2, 1/2
1 sister, 2+ brothers so for her 1/2, 1/2

2 sisters, brother Fa?in ELSE IF they were two, so to them the 2/3, 1/3
2 sisters, 2+ brothers Fa?in ELSE IF they were two, so to them the 2/3, 1/3

brother, 3+ sisters
Wa ?In AND IF they were brethren men and women so to the male equal luck the two females

2+ brothers, 3+ sisters
Wa ?In AND IF they were brethren men and women so to the male equal luck the two females

Peace

Samia

Salaam Samia,

Brethren at least one male by himself or 1+ males with any number of females.

"ikhwatun" is similar to "waladun" in the verse below. If you understand "if no waladun to them" does not cover a daughter or two, then again we a have a big disagreement

412

If someone asks you do you have siblings, how would you answer if you only had one sister?
If you accept to disregard the number (ikhwatun becomes akh), then you may as well disregard the gender (ikhwatun becomes ukht). Ikhwatun in this context is like waladun It covers both genders in any number.

The case of only mother (according to your understanding) and siblings has already been discussed in 411. Why bring it again in 4176? Why not show the share of "the mother of kelala" just as we were shown the share of the mother in 4176? How is the share of siblings in 411 distributed between them and why?
The rest of the post has been dealt with before, or is based on difference in understanding the definition of kalala.

unknownuser

Salaam Samia,

I like an answer to this part first and get it out of the way if you don't mind...

There's a difference.
This is why the verse 4176, unlike 411 says If they were siblings men and women, indicating their number as 3+ men and 3+ women at least.

Explain how Wa 'In Kn 'Ikhwatan Rijlan Wa Nis'an means 3+ men and 3+ women at least, not...

1 sister, 1 brother
1 sister, 2+ brothers

2 sisters, brother
2 sisters, 2+ brothers

mmouhammad

Peace,

Main Inheritors are 4 groups; they inherit in the sequence listed below after evaluating the related conditions to each group.
a. Spouses
b. Parents
c. Siblings,
d. Children
Spouse inherits first regardless of the presence or absence of other inheritors; shares are as per Verse 412. Spouse presence will not block siblings from inheriting if parents or children are not present.
Being inherited by his parents; verse411- " ", in this verse there are three possible cases for being inherited by his parents
a. Both parents alive
b. Mother alive
c. Father alive
If either of parents is alive and deceased has children then siblings will not inherit but if has no children then living parent or parents will inherit with siblings as per 411, to his mother is 1/6.
Siblings In English dictionary means brother or sister; I think it has same meaning in Arabic "ikh wa tun, ".
? In Arabic
a. Sister ; two sisters ; more than two sisters ? Gender is known; 1, 2 or many.
b. Brother ; two brothers ; more than two brothers ? Gender is known; 1, 2 or many.
c. Siblings Brother or Sister "ikh wa tun, "; Unknown Gender or how many, so "ikh wa tun, " is one to n, males, females or mix.

i. Verse 412 and has a brother or a sister so to each is 1/6 and if they were more than that, they share 1/3 ? " ... ..." Notice the "or " and more than that.

ii. This meaning is further confirmed by verse 4176 ? and has a sister, to her is 1/2 and if they were two sisters to them is 2/3 and if they were ikhwatun, men and women ?" ".

iii. In both verses above God allocates defined shares to defined Genders. However, when the Gender and number of the siblings are no longer considered, God used the Generic term "ikh wa tun, " as in verse 411.

iv. Moreover, in verse 4176 " " God said siblings, men and women, stating the Gender to avoid any misunderstanding and to confirm that the defined shares for one sister and the two sisters are when there are no brothers. The reason is that all other shares are defined under the general distribution rule at the beginning of verse 411. For example 1s +1b and 2s+1b fall under ikhwatun men and women, hence confirms sisters are alone.

v. This usage proves that "ikh wa tun, " without identifier means brothers or sisters or as in the verse a mix of both, for example would we not consider 3, 4 or 5 sisters as siblings, ikhwatun, in verse 4176.

vi. As such we see that God uses "ikh wa tun, " in verse 411 and if he has siblings then to his mother is 1/6; Gender or number of siblings is not an issue. So "ikh wa tun, " is one to n, males, females or mix.

vii. Verse 1258 " " And the brothers of Joseph came. Generic usage of ikhwatun.

viii. Verse 4910 " " The believers, 'males and females' Ikhwatun; Generic and used in the broader meaning Brotherhood.

Siblings, , Brothers and Sisters will inherit in 3 cases

a. When deceased has No Children but has mother or father or both. Verse 411 and if he has siblings then to his mother is 1/6. The siblings' share is what would have been for the children if there were any.

b. When deceased has Children but No Parents. Kalalah in verse 412 and a man is being inherited Kalalah or a woman and has a brother or a sister then to each is 1/6 and if there are more than that then they share 1/3. Observe, in this case the share equals to that of the parents if they were alive.

c. When deceased has No Children and Has no Parents; this is Kalalah in verse 4176

unknownuser

Peace mmouhammad,

Good clear summary and agree with most of it except for the following.

If either of parents is alive and deceased has children then siblings will not inherit but if has no children then living parent or parents will inherit with siblings as per 411, to his mother is 1/6.

husband, mother, sister, brother, father
1 -1/2 husband ? 1/6 mother = 1/3 (sister + brother + father) where in 411 are instructions to distribute?

iv. Moreover, in verse 4176 " " God said siblings, men and women, stating the Gender to avoid any misunderstanding and to confirm that the defined shares for one sister and the two sisters are when there are no brothers. The reason is that all other shares are defined under the general distribution rule at the beginning of verse 411. For example 1s +1b and 2s+1b fall under ikhwatun men and women, hence confirms sisters are alone.

Correct, excellent post; therefore logically if they are alone (i.e. no brothers) who else can they share 1/2 or 2/3 with?

4176 They ask your clarification, say "God decrees in Al-Kallati, if human died, not for him a child,
and for him a sister, so for her half what left, and he inherits her if was not for her a child,
Fa?in ELSE IF they were two, so to them (F) the two thirds from what left,
Wa ?In AND IF they were brethren men and women
so to the male equal luck the two females,
God clarifies for you that you (not) be misguided, and God is with everything knowledgeable.

Father is eliminated since deceased is Al-Kallati
Child is eliminated since it is obviously stated in the verse.
Spouse is eliminated since....

1/2 husband + 2/3 sisters = 1 1/6 too much

Therefore Al-Kallati can have a mother and she can share with siblings stated in 411 ? make sense?

b. When deceased has Children but No Parents. Kalalah in verse 412 and a man is being inherited Kalalah or a woman and has a brother or a sister then to each is 1/6 and if there are more than that then they share 1/3. Observe, in this case the share equals to that of the parents if they were alive.

Same issue as above with father; cannot have a sibling together with spouse?

wife, sister 1 ? 1/4 ? 1/6 = 7/12 unallocated who gets the remainder?

c. When deceased has No Children and Has no Parents; this is Kalalah in verse 4176

There obviously has to be someone eligible to enter 4176 and share with sole sister or sisters.

conclusion
412 Kallatan (a loner) no father, no spouse
4176 Al-Kallati (the loner, like my neighbor living with his mother ... lol) no father, no spouse, no child

Peace

mmouhammad

Peace Eid,

I can't understand why a spouse's inheritance is an issue. In the Quran, there is only one single condition that affects spouse's share in the inheritance; this condition is the presence or absence of children in verse 412. Once a spouse's share is paid we move on to distribute the balance.

Now let us look at Kalalah part in verse 412 and if a man being inherited Kalalah and has a brother or sister (fa li kuli) to each is 1/6 and if there were more than that they are partners in 1/3?

Okay so a man died, he has a wife, and the wife will inherit 1/4 or 1/8 as per 412 regardless of any case as she is not an apparent part of any condition. So, assume the deceased has children then we give the wife 1/8 share and move on.

We paid the wife, what is next? Could we give the children their share at this time? well I think we all agree that we need to check if parents are there. (If parents are there, and to his parents to each is 1/6 if has children verse 411) Let us assume that there are no parents, then what? Easy we move to Kalalah 412, the siblings will get max 1/3

The above case is very possible, a man died, left wife, no parents, has children and has siblings, you say that the sibling do not inherit in the presence of wife, because of Kalalah. I say God said Kalalah man or women and not a widower or a widow " ".

So for now we have a wife and children ad siblings inheriting under verse 412 Kalalah. If we remove the wife, how will the inheritance change? I say a bonus to children and siblings. So let us bring the wife back and remove the children, then we will have a Kalalah case as in verse 4176; unless you want to give all to wife!!!

Now let the wife, children, and siblings be, and say his mother is alive. I think this case is very clear, Wife is 1/8, mother is 1/6*remainder, balance to children and nothing for siblings V 411. Removing the wife gives a bonus to children and mother. Still siblings will get nothing even if spouse and father are not there.

Now let us remove the children, keep wife, mother and siblings, wife gets 1/4 all agree. Bring verse 411 and if he has no children and being inherited by his parents to his mother is 1/3 but if he has siblings then to his mother is 1/6. Siblings get 5/6* remainder even if children and father are not there. And non of Kalalah verses are applicable.

From your explanation in previous posts, it seems that you think because the shares for the siblings are not defined in 411, the shares must be the ones in Kalalah cases 412 & 176, but when wife is present along with mother, you said the case is no longer Kalalah and hence you give 5/6 to siblings.

It appears that because mother is mentioned alone with reduced share in verse 411 when has siblings, you assumed the Father is not alive. You draw a conclusion that mother is present in Kalalah cases and also concluded if Father is present siblings will not inherit. Furthermore you concluded that Father's share is twice the mother's except when the deceased has children.

Verse 411 said to each 1/6 if has children and to mother is 1/3 if no children, but if has siblings to mother is 1/6. In one case, parents get an equal share that is when the deceased has children. The mother gets 1/3 only if the deceased has no children and being inherited by his parents. However, when has siblings, he is no longer being inherited by his parents and therefore to his mother is 1/6.

In my reading, the conditions applied to parents and siblings in verse 411 are

The deceased has children, to his parents to each is 1/6 ? equal shares
Being inherited by his parents; the deceased has no other heirs. To mother is 1/3.
Not being inherited by his parents; and if he has no children and being inherited by his parents, are two conditions that must be met for mother to get 1/3 share, the has no children part negates case 1 above, the being inherited by his parents part confirms the requirement of no other heirs at same level. The mentioning of siblings and the reducing of mother's share accordingly indicates that the siblings are heirs, hence shares as per condition 2 above is N/A, but shares as per condition 1 is more logical as hinted to by God, then to his mother is 1/6.

Conclusions
Kalalah is without parents only.
? Presence or absence of spouse is not an issue in Kalalah.
? Sibling inherits as alternatives to Children in v 411; parents get 1/6 each, siblings share balance.
? Siblings inherit as alternatives to Parents in V 412 Kalalah with children, siblings' get 1/6 each if brother or a sister or a maximum of 1/3 if more than that and the children get the balance.
? Siblings inherit as alternatives to both parents and children in V 4176 Kalalah w/o children.

unknownuser

Peace mmouhammad,

Conclusions
Kalalah is without parents only.
? Presence or absence of spouse is not an issue in Kalalah.
? Sibling inherits as alternatives to Children in v 411; parents get 1/6 each, siblings share balance.
? Siblings inherit as alternatives to Parents in V 412 Kalalah with children, siblings' get 1/6 each if brother or a sister or a maximum of 1/3 if more than that and the children get the balance.
? Siblings inherit as alternatives to both parents and children in V 4176 Kalalah w/o children.

Please address the cases already repeated numerous times (simple math)...

411 without children

husband, mother, sister, brother, father
1 -1/2 husband - 1/6 mother = 1/3 (sister + brother + father) how much to each and why?

4176 without parents and no children

husband, 2 sisters 1/2 + 2/3 = 1 + 1/6 why too much?

wife, sister 1/4 + 1/2 = 3/4 why 1/4 is not allocated; who gets it?

mmouhammad

Peace mmouhammad,

Please address the cases already repeated numerous times (simple math)...

411 without children

husband, mother, sister, brother, father
1 -1/2 husband (412) - 1/6 mother (411) = 1/3 (sister + brother + father) how much to each and why?

4176 without parents and children

husband, 2 sisters 1/2 + 2/3 = 1 1/6 -- why too much?

wife, sister 1/4 + 1/2 = 3/4 (why 1/4 1/4 unallocate; who gets it?

Peace Eid,

husband, mother, sister, brother, father, 1 -1/2 husband (412) - 1/6 mother (411) = 1/3 (sister + brother + father) how much to each and why?

1-1/2 husband (412); each parent gets 1/6 * 1/2 remainder after husband; sister and brother each 1/2 * remainder after parents -

husband, 2 sisters 1/2 + 2/3 = 1 1/6 -- why too much?

1/2 to husband; 2/3*remainder after husband to 2 sisters; remainder after sisters to the relatives and the orphans and the needy.

wife, sister 1/4 + 1/2 = 3/4 (why 1/4 1/4 unallocate; who gets it?

1/4 wife, 1/2*remainder after wife to sister; remainder after sister to the relatives and the orphans and the needy

47
48

47 For the men is a portion from what the parents and the relatives left behind, and for the women is a portion from what the parents and relatives left behind, be it little or much; a forced portion.
48 And if the distribution is attended by the relatives and the orphans and the needy, then you shall give them part of it and say to them a kind saying.

unknownuser

Peace mmouhammad,

1-1/2 husband (412); each parent gets 1/6 * 1/2 remainder after husband; sister and brother each 1/2 * remainder after parents -

411 states if children then parents get 1/6 (i.e. there shares are fixed)
giving the sister and brother 1/12 each is nowhere in Qur'an; that is ruling like umar et al did in the past.

1/2 to husband; 2/3*remainder after husband to 2 sisters; remainder after sisters to the relatives and the orphans and the needy

1/4 wife, 1/2*remainder after wife to sister; remainder after sister to the relatives and the orphans and the needy.

47
48

47 For the men is a portion from what the parents and the relatives left behind, and for the women is a portion from what the parents and relatives left behind, be it little or much; a forced portion.
48 And if the distribution is attended by the relatives and the orphans and the needy, then you shall give them part of it and say to them a kind saying.

That makes no sense and using that method can "fix" any theory say it goes to poor only in those special cases with a remainder. We do not have to change a thing in anyone's interpretation; you give the remainder to the poor while others like Samia flip it back to the spouse or those in the past ruled the remainder is be divided up evenly amongst all inheritors using algebra normalization or to whatever the imam of the day idea popped in his head.

There is no remainder, and yes after inheritance is "correctly" distributed in all cases they are to be mindful of the poor.

Peace

mmouhammad

Peace Eid,

I agree, these inheritance rules do not appear clear cut cases, one have to keep trying to understand and link verses together and run all possible scenarios with open mind, and not allowing the mind to be stuck in one position only.

Let us take verse 411 the first 3 conditions" "; you say these condition are only applicable to children as per " ".

From my reading, I understood that God used these conditions in other cases; let us start by verse 4176

4176 They ask your clarification, say "God decrees you in Al-Kalalah, if a man died, not for him children, and for him a sister, so for her half what left, and he inherits her if was not for her children, ELSE IF they were two, so to them (F) the two thirds from what left, But IF they were brethren men and women so to the male luck , God clarifies for you that you (not) be misguided, and God is with everything knowledgeable.

So if he has a sister and a brother then to each is 1/2 -
So if he has 2 sisters then to each is 1/3 - ? this is a fourth condition applicable in Kalalah verse 4176 only when 2 sister are alone and no brothers.
So if he has 2 sisters and one brother then sisters to each is 1/4 and to brother is 1/2 -
so if he has 3 sisters and one brother then sisters share 2/3 and brother is 1/3 -

Now let us take verse 412

412 and if a man being inherited Kalalah or a women and has a brother or a sister then to each is 1/6 but if there were more than 2 they share 1/3.

Here God used ' ' partners, but did not specify the proportion of partnership. Are we to assume they all get equal shares?
Well I think not and here below is how I understood the distribution

Maximum share is 1/3 -
sister and brother to each is 1/6 -
2 sisters and one brother partners in 1/3 - then sisters to each is 1/4 and to brother is 1/2 -
so if he has 3 sisters and one brother partners in 1/3 then sisters share 2/3 and brother is 1/3 -

Regardless how small or big the inheritance is read verse 47
47
A defined given share is the key here to link to what are defined given shares as it is stated at the beginning of verse 411.

God has defined shares and inheritors under different conditions; I do not think we have any right to change any of them. The remainder in any case can be taken by the state or distributed in accordance to God's instruction in verse 48 and I really don't see why not especially since we gave the defined inheritors there defined shares as instructed. Furthermore, I think the defined share for the 2 sisters alone without brothers is also applicable in all other case that meet this condition; children included.

One of God's rules in relation to money is to change hands. .

I think the simple understanding was lost when people started to increase shares and block heirs to suit there political and worldly needs, just like the sons of Israel in the story of the cow in verse 2.

unknownuser

Peace mmouhammad,

So if he has a sister and a brother then to each is 1/2 -

Once again; who gets the other 1/2?

wife, sister 1/4 + 1/2 = 3/4 leaves 1/4 unallocated (now becomes a ruling outside Quran whom to flip)

ELSE IF husband, sister 1/2 + 1/2 = 1 which leaves nothing for the poor.

So if he has 2 sisters then to each is 1/3 - ? this is a fourth condition applicable in Kalalah verse 4176 only when 2 sister are alone and no brothers.

Once again

husband, 2 sisters 1/2 + 2/3 = 7/6 too much; whom to takeaway 1/6?

Else IF doing 2/3 of remainder

wife, 2 sisters 1/4 + 2/3*1/2 = 7/12 too little; who to flip remaining 5/12?

Above is same if 2+ daughters in 411 are presumed alone, no sons -- contradiction reason for this long thread.

so if he has 3 sisters and one brother then sisters share 2/3 and brother is 1/3 -

Cannot use ratios revolving around #of females as with children; different wording fawqa/above two 411 not there in 4176 prevents doing so.

God has defined shares and inheritors under different conditions; I do not think we have any right to change any of them. The remainder in any case can be taken by the state or distributed in accordance to God's instruction in verse 48 and I really don't see why not especially since we gave the defined inheritors there defined shares as instructed. Furthermore, I think the defined share for the 2 sisters alone without brothers is also applicable in all other case that meet this condition; children included.

One of God's rules in relation to money is to change hands. .

I think the simple understanding was lost when people started to increase shares and block heirs to suit there political and worldly needs, just like the sons of Israel in the story of the cow in verse 2.

Not what was instructed...

father, brother is unsolvable because father cannot inherit with a sibling.

mother, 2 sisters leaves 0 to give the father or the poor.

1/3 mother + 2/3 sisters = 1

Yes simple, no ambiguity, and the numbers have to equate perfectly without remainders.

Peace

mmouhammad

Peace Eid,

Peace mmouhammad,

father, brother is unsolvable because father cannot inherit with a sibling.

why not, where in the Quran it said that can not be?

mother, 2 sisters leaves 0 to give the father or the poor.

mother 1/6; 2 sisters 2/35/6 = remainder to the relatives, orphans and needy
Mother 1/6, father 1/6; 2 sisters 2/34/6 remainder = 1/3*4/6 remainder to the relatives, orphans and needy

1/3 mother + 2/3 sisters = 1

mother 1/6; 2 sisters 2/3*5/6 = remainder to the relatives, orphans and needy

Yes simple, no ambiguity, and the numbers have to equate perfectly without remainders.

why it has to be w/o remainder, where does it say that?

Peace