Mumin vs. Muslim - Take 2
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This resulted into deletion of posts where I posted evidence for my POV and insults from Wakas' side.
deletion of your posts is an act more insulting!
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Thanks for referencing the so-called "insults" for all to see.
Peace.
laugh
Well, the insults werent the real bad thing, but the deleting of my posts, which was done for no good reason.
Anyways, do you have proof for your claim that being a Muslim is a status below being a Mumin and that a Mumin has to do things like fasting, contact prayers, etc. but a Muslim doesnt?
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@ Wakas
Lets leave the personal issues aside.
Some facts that refute your claim
Salat was already practiced during and before Muhammad's existence as evidenced by this verse
835 Their contact prayer at the sanctuary was nothing but deception/noise and aversion. Taste the retribution for what you have rejected.
As we have seen the Arabs were called "Submitters" by God in 4914. So there you have it Muslims (not Mumins) practicing salat.
If you dont have any evidence to refute this, then this will be my last post on this thread.
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@ Wakas
Lets leave the personal issues aside.
Some facts that refute your claim
Salat was already practiced during and before Muhammad's existence as evidenced by this verse
835 Their contact prayer at the sanctuary was nothing but deception/noise and aversion. Taste the retribution for what you have rejected.
As we have seen the Arabs were called "Submitters" by God in 4914. So there you have it Muslims (not Mumins) practicing salat.
If you dont have any evidence to refute this, then this will be my last post on this thread.
hypno hypno
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Well, the insults werent the real bad thing, but the deleting of my posts, which was done for no good reason.
Actually, the deleting of your posts was done for a reason they were illogical, misrepresented my view and almost every one contained errors. Thus, rather than letting them clog up the thread, potentially mislead others, misrepresent me and waste my time correcting each and every one, I opted to delete them. I regret that now though as I was reminded if I had let them remain I could have referred your case to admin/moderators under breach of the then forum rule 2. But alas, I now have no evidence.
In any case, thanks for starting this thread as it has provided a taster of the "logic" you displayed in the 1st thread
How do you come to the conclusion that those who are "not yet Mumins" dont have to uphold the salat, pay the zakat, etc.?
Where did I say the above? Please quote and link me.
If you cannot, did you
- deliberately misrepresent my view?
- incorrectly deduce this from what I said using your "logic"?
- other?
Some facts that refute your claim
Facts? Refute? We shall see...
Salat was already practiced during and before Muhammad's existence
Yes, I'm sure AQ did not magically create words out of nowhere, so I would think the concept of "salat" would have been known and various "salat" practiced.
835 Their salat at the bayt was nothing but deception/noise and aversion. Taste the retribution for what you have rejected.
Clearly, their "salat" in this case was nothing but deception/noise/aversion. This implicitly means it cannot be the "salat" that AQ talks about.
As we have seen the Arabs were called "Submitters" by God in 4914.
Where were they called "submitters" (as you put it) in 4914? More correctly, AQ says
al 3rab said "we have believed", say "you did not believe, and only/but say we have submitted, and the belief has not entered into your hearts."...
So there you have it Muslims (not Mumins) practicing salat.
No, what you have is al 3rab should not say "we have believed", but rather "we have submitted", and an example of a salat that was not accepted by those who were described as having the trait of kafar.
Let me spell it out for you, in case you missed it, I am implying that what you deduced from each verse was weak to begin with and made weaker when you combined your deductions to form a conclusion.
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AQ = al quran
Now, let me help you out by giving you my actual view, so you dont have to deduce it using your "logic"
4914 clearly points out that there is a difference between "we have believed" and "we have submitted", the former comes after the latter, and it is a matter of entrance into the heart. The word heart/qalb is used much like the English usage of "heart", as it is the locus of intuitions/feelings, i.e. something deep. The heart is the locus of iman, i.e. iman resides within the heart. This view of iman/mumin being a higher level than aslam/muslim is not a new view, many traditional "scholars" have this view in the past and present. For a detailed study, I recommend Toshihiko Izutsu's 'the concept of belief in islamic theology".
In my two articles on slw/salat, I differentiate between the regular timed salat/bond of the mumineen and simply salat/bond
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htm
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/disproved_traditional_salat.htmJust like the English word "bond" and many many other words, they can denote specifics in some contexts and general in others, depending on how they are used, who is addressed etc. Read the above articles, then re-read 835 and 91-12 together. Perhaps then you will see how those who are kafar can uphold a deceitful salat/bond.
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Peace progressive, everyone,
Anyways, may I ask WHY you think that we are not obliged to uphold the contact prayers "until we have not yet attained the Mumin status"?
bravo bravo bravo
Finally you said something I agree with.
Following is proof that salaat is mandatory for ALL MUSLIMS
7441 About the criminals.
7442 ?What has caused you to be in the scorching heat??
7443 They said ?We were not of those who bonded/musalleen.?
7444 ?And we did not feed the poor person.?
7445 ?And we used to participate with those who spoke falsehood.?
7446 ?And we used to deny the Day of Judgment.?
7447 ?Until the certainty came to us.?Here one of the traits of the criminals who will be in the scorching heat on the Last Day is that they were not among the musalleen. So it is up to us, whether we want ourselves to be classified among the criminals and be put in the scorching heat by not being among the musalleen and doing the other negative things mentioned in the above signs or we can uphold the salaat and avoid the other negative traits mentioned above and not be classified among the criminals and possibly avoid the scorching heat on the Last Day.
I also found the following thread on this forum which gives comprehensive qur'aanic evidence that upholding salaat (including the timed salaat) is mandatory upon ALL MUSLIMS
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12990.0
Now what exactly salaat is can be determined by studying all the occurrences of salaat in the qur'aan.
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peace t11,
Anyways, may I ask WHY you (Wakas) think that we are not obliged to uphold the contact prayers "until we have not yet attained the Mumin status"?
Brackets are my insertion to clarify to readers whom you were referring to.
Finally you said something I agree with.
You may agree with his view in general, but you cannot agree with his statement, because he incorrectly stated my view. This is typical of his posts.
My view is quite simple, The Quran only addresses the mumineen with the regular timed salat, thus it is only obligatory upon them. For the rest, they can perform or attend if they wish, i.e. it is not obligatory upon them. The best evidence against this view can be found in the thread referenced, and it is a vague non-descript reference concerning 11114. It's not what I call evidence, but each to their own
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12990.0
As a side note, when I re-read 11114 just now, it felt like an idiom, implying "uphold the bond" all the time, which makes sense with the use of "the good deeds take away the bad", and it might also explain the seemingly missing explicit reference to mumineen. Just a thought.
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Salaamun Alaykum
I am also of the view the Muslim and Mumin are 2 different levels... Mumin, those who have imaan is achieved progressively after being a muslim for some time... Mumin has also many other other duties to complete BEFORE salaah and zakaah...
http//islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/2/2_177.gif2177 It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the Allah.fearing.
The People of truth are those who spoke the truth about their imaan. This truth will be exposed by Allah on the Day of Judgement. Many are claiming to be Mumin but they are not... They have failed in upholding these duties which comes before salaah and zakaah.
This is just my opinion
Wassalaam
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Peace All
I'm wondering is the view that is being referenced here the one I read about which says, basically that as a muslim, the only things obligatory on you is believing in one God & doing good works?
Anyway, while I understand where this concept of being muslim first & then moving on to be mu'min is coming from, I have a little difficulty with the concept. Let me explain.
If God says that the only deen (system) that is acceptable is Islam, then does this mean that people who follow this deen (system) do not have to abide by all the laws that are in the quran as long as they accept one God & do good?
Imraan
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Mumin is someone that has faith and it is just a descriptive term for believers. Muslim is pretty much the same thing when used in the Quran. I don't really see the point in over analysing these terms tbh as I don't think the author meant it to be something so complex that it requires heavy debate over.
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Mumin is someone that has faith and it is just a descriptive term for believers. Muslim is pretty much the same thing when used in the Quran. I don't really see the point in over analysing these terms tbh as I don't think the author meant it to be something so complex that it requires heavy debate over.
Some people believe them to be completely different things.
@ wakas
I did not deliberately try to misrepresent your view/distort it. I cannot quote a lot since I am not at a PC at the moment. The whole issue occured when I asked you if you bow and prostrate in
salah. You replied that you do not perform/uphold it since you "have not attained the 'mumin' status yet". So then I told you that Abraham, Jacob, etc. all called themselves Submitters (Muslims) and did not want to die except being such. I cannot quote you the exact verse, but I know that it is in the Quran.I agree with you that there is a difference between those who aclnowledge (mumins) and those who submit (muslims). I have also given you the difference between them, which is that the mumins are those who, in addition to submitting to God, acknowledge the messsenger, as seen in 4915. 4915 clarifies that the Arabs were not Mumins, but Muslims. 835 shows that Arabs, who were called "Muslims" performed salat.
I know that
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Adding to my last post
I know that there is a difference between mumins and muslims, but everyone who follows the Quran and submits to God are to uphold the Quran. I think it just additionally says "o you who acknowledge" for the salat, ablution verses, etc. because it is calling on those who acknowledge the messenger and emphasizes that wevshould acknowledge the messenger.
The system is called Submission (Islam) not anything else. ANYONE who submits to God is a Submitter(Muslim).
I cannot compell you to accept/believe something that you don't want to (2256).
I also don't find it fitting to God's system that each person should choose when they should uphold the salat or pay zakat.Peace
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I did not deliberately try to misrepresent your view/distort it.
I dont think you did it intentionally either. Rather, using your "logic" you incorrectly deduced what you thought to be my view from what I said.
Perhaps you now realise why I recommend reading up on critical thinking and fallacies etc.
835 shows that Arabs, who were called "Muslims" performed salat.
835 shows that those described as kafar (see context) can also participate in salat. So using the "logic" in your above statement, according to you, a muslim can simulataneously be kafar. ;D
Each to their own. I'm out.
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Perhaps you think I have made a strawman arguement. Anyways, I have presented my view to you, but like you said, "to each their own".
BTW, I don't think that just because it says "o you who acknowledge" in some salah/ablution verses is not enough evidence for salah being oblig. only for "those who have attained the 'mumin' status".
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I have read the article by Layth again and I thought that the concept kidn of makes sense now, however, some verses that keep me from fully accepting it are
5111 I inspired the disciples that you shall acknowledge Me and My messenger; they Said, 'We acknowledge, and bear witness that we have peacefully surrendered.'
2136 Say, "We acknowledge God and what was sent down to us and what was sent down to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, the Patriarchs, what was given to Moses and Jesus, and what was given to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make a distinction between any of them and to Him we peacefully surrender."
Don't these verses imply that submitters/those who peacefully surrender/muslims acknowledge scriptures? Isnt a Muslim only one who acknowledges God and does good deeds, according to the article?
A clarification is appreciated.
Peace
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Concept acknowledged. Case closed.
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Concept acknowledged. Case closed.
congratulations
Eid Mubarak
