Hot/"ramadan" Answer
-
bravo
elhamdulillah, quran only allows hadith based interpretations
9 100 And the first to embrace Islam of the Muhajirun (those who migrated from Makkah to Al- Madinah, Umar, Abu bakr siddiq etc) and the Ansar (the citizens of Al- Madinah, abu ayyub alansari, Abu Mas'ud Al-Ansari etc who helped and gave aid to the Muhajirun) and also those who followed them exactly (in Faith). Allah is well-pleased with them* as they are well-pleased with Him. He has prepared for them Gardens under which rivers flow (Paradise), to dwell therein forever. That is the supreme success.
- For the complete list of muhajireen and ansaar see Bukhari, Muslim etc
rotfl
-
-
Peace Ayman,
I have the following comments on your Hot/?Ramadan? article. The quotations in red are excerpt from your article.
?Of course, our analysis indicates that the restriction period would be different between the southern and the northern hemisphere. This is fine.?
No, this is not fine because your theory/approach contradicts Quranic verses and defies common sense.
Your theory allows for two different nights of destiny, one in the July time-frame in the Northern hemisphere and the second one in January time-frame in the Southern hemisphere. The two nights are separated by about six months. And this contradicts Quranic verse 971 - We revealed it in the Night of Destiny. The Quran talks about one night of Destiny only. The below quote of yours implies that you agree with one night of Destiny as well. Therefore, you are contracting yourself from the get-go.
?Interestingly, after completing this article, we inadvertently found out exactly when the night of destiny ("laylat al-qadr" occurs. Simply, the great reading was descended in the night of the full-moon of scorching heat.?
Common sense would dictate that the night of Destiny will start in one hemisphere and end in the other hemisphere in 24 hours. The night sweeps the globe in 24 hours with known exception at the Polar Regions. This is consistent with the Quran and common sense (of many people).
Further, if we apply your definition ?The full moon of scorching heat?, we find that the scorching full moon of the southern hemisphere around January time-frame (perihelion) satisfies the definition. At this time the Earth is closest to the sun unlike the northern hemisphere aphelion (July 4). The problem is we don?t find Prophet Muhammad in the southern hemisphere. Hence, your theory proves that Quran was not reveled to Prophet Muhammad which in turns implies that the God is a liar. And that is not true. Therefore, your theory must be false.
The God created the moon (Earth) for us so that we can count the twelve months. The Quran is easy to understand. Therefore, the easy understanding of verse 936, 2189, 1433 is 1 moon cycle = 1 month. After counting 12 moon cycles we reset the count back to one again. There is nothing more and nothing less (no 13 moon nonsense). The moon cycles every 29.530 days.
The length of the solar cycle is 365.242 days. The Earth?s spin gives us days and nights. That is the service provided by the sun.
Pure solar and lunar cycles (calendars) are continually adrift against the seasons i.e. there is no connection between the seasons and the solar and lunar cycle. This is your Lord?s design. Are you questioning His design? Then why are you trying to connect the seasons to the solar and lunar cycles and bring new law to us? Are you trying to lead us astray? Or have you received a revelation from Him?
If the God wanted the season connection then He would have designed solar and lunar cycle accordingly.
The similitude is like this ?The God tells us to worship Him alone? but most people do the opposite. Likewise, the God tells us not to make new religious law (e.g. start fasting in hot full moon) but many of us do. The God has just the right punishment waiting for the disbeliever. Just wait and see.
The God said if you cannot fast in the month of Ramadan due to illness you can make it up another time. He did not say you will get less credit because you did not fast in the month of Ramadan. This proves that there are no seasonal ties to the fasting month.
Of course, there is nothing wrong in using solar cycle or lunar cycle or both together to solve some worldly problems such as determining the most optimum time to sow seeds. These are the deviation and not the standard. The standards are the natural lunar and solar cycles and according to the Quran our religious matter must be based on these standards.
?This is confirmed by archeological evidence from coins and manuscripts of the era. ?
Flawed approach If you accept this then you must also accept Jesus as son of God, Idol worship and other nonsense archeological dig. Remember you cannot pick and choose evidence after you have accepted the archeological approach to determine truth from falsehood i.e. any archeological find is truth. How do you handle a situation where today?s archeological finding is contradicted by future archeological findings? How do you account for true evidence that is lost for ever? How do you define a complete archeological evidence set? A conclusion based on a incomplete set of evidence is not trustworthy (equates to hearsay, hadith). Do you believe in king Tut and sun worship?
?So the timing of Ramadan today is dependent not only on the sighting of the new crescent moon but on an arbitrary decision that was made many centuries ago.?
Tying a calendar to an event does not change the lunar cycle. Therefore, the arbitrary decision problem you are instigating has no merit.
?The only derivative from "R-M-Dh" in the great reading is the word "ramadhan", which occurs only once. Hence, there is no way to compare directly the meaning with how it is used in other verses.?
A righteous person would have stop right here. However, a deviated person would go witch hunting for information that does not exist.
?According to Classical Arabic dictionaries, the Arabs used to call the moon "shahr". But what phase of the moon does the word "shahr" imply??
Classical Arabic dictionaries = Hadith (hearsay). Is dictionary your idol?
Are you saying that Prophet Muhammad use to do what you are advocating or Prophet did it wrong? If Prophet Muhammad did it your way then where is your evidence of deviation (when did people start to deviate).
-
A-salaam alaikum
I have a question, you quoted the verses below. My question is where in them verses does it say that the cycle of the moon = 1 month? It does however say They ask you about the phases of the moon! Say, "They provide a timing device for the people, and determine the time of Hajj.
Now it provides a timing devise for the people not necessarily a timing device to determine one month, could be a timing device for something else???. Also its a timing device to determine Hajj. Also, The count of months, as far as GOD is concerned, is twelve. e.g. Jan, feb, march, etc... We use twelve months now. Logic tells me we are using a good calander system now which determines the seasons and natural system that god provided for us. I know from this system when to plant my crop (if I was a farmer), when to book my holiday and where to go to enjoy some rays etc etc...
May be you should have stared your sentence as The God created the moon, sun, earth and the stars for us so that we can count the twelve months....Forgive me if I have raised a question that might be clear to others. Excuse my ignorance as I do not mean to challege anyones understanding, thinking mine is above anyone elses. Iam new and just like many here, I am seeking the truth and logic. May God guide us to the correct system. May peace from God transcend upon you all.
The God created the moon (Earth) for us so that we can count the twelve months. The Quran is easy to understand. Therefore, the easy understanding of verse 936, 2189, 1433 is 1 moon cycle = 1 month. After counting 12 moon cycles we reset the count back to one again. There is nothing more and nothing less (no 13 moon nonsense). The moon cycles every 29.530 days.
-
Peace Guest,
I have the following comments on your Hot/?Ramadan? article. The quotations in red are excerpt from your article.
?Of course, our analysis indicates that the restriction period would be different between the southern and the northern hemisphere. This is fine.?
No, this is not fine because your theory/approach contradicts Quranic verses and defies common sense.
The restriction is about hunting wild life. Wild life follows the solar cycle, not the lunar one. The cycle of wild life is different between the southern and the northern hemispheres. So it is normal that the restriction period would also be different.
Your theory allows for two different nights of destiny, one in the July time-frame in the Northern hemisphere and the second one in January time-frame in the Southern hemisphere. The two nights are separated by about six months. And this contradicts Quranic verse 971 - We revealed it in the Night of Destiny. The Quran talks about one night of Destiny only. The below quote of yours implies that you agree with one night of Destiny as well. Therefore, you are contracting yourself from the get-go.
Firstly, it is the night of ?measure? not ?destiny?. Please see how ?qadar? is used throughout the great reading, for example in 3639.
Secondly, who said there are two nights or over 1400 nights? You need to read carefully the whole passage in Chapter 97. The god said that he descended the great reading in the night of measure. He also said that the night of measure is PEACEFUL until the rise of daybreak. It is an indisputable reality that there is not a single night of the year where people suddenly stop fighting wars and peace on earth is achieved and criminals don't rob or kill. Unless you are saying that the god is exaggerating then your traditional interpretation is clearly verifiable as false. In my opinion, there are two feasible interpretations
-
The night of measure occurred only once over 1400 years ago when the great reading was descended.
-
The night of measure is experienced in terms of its benefits and peacefulness as a result of one?s realization of what this night is. This is in line with other benefits of the night in general like those described in 736. Only those who study and ponder in the night would experience 736. Those who commit sins during the night wouldn?t experience the effects of the night in 736. Since this is based on the individual and therefore their location in conjunction with the night, then this night being different in the southern and northern hemispheres is not an issue.
?Interestingly, after completing this article, we inadvertently found out exactly when the night of destiny ("laylat al-qadr" occurs. Simply, the great reading was descended in the night of the full-moon of scorching heat.?
Common sense would dictate that the night of Destiny will start in one hemisphere and end in the other hemisphere in 24 hours. The night sweeps the globe in 24 hours with known exception at the Polar Regions. This is consistent with the Quran and common sense (of many people).
Further, if we apply your definition ?The full moon of scorching heat?, we find that the scorching full moon of the southern hemisphere around January time-frame (perihelion) satisfies the definition. At this time the Earth is closest to the sun unlike the northern hemisphere aphelion (July 4). The problem is we don?t find Prophet Muhammad in the southern hemisphere. Hence, your theory proves that Quran was not reveled to Prophet Muhammad which in turns implies that the God is a liar. And that is not true. Therefore, your theory must be false.Prophet Muhammad wasn?t in America or Morocco or Tokyo. The ?night? in those locations occurs at a different time than in Arabia. So those ?nights of measure? are not the right ones either according to your logic. Also, using your logic, the problem is that we don?t find Prophet Muhammad anywhere since he is dead, so there is no night of measure.
The God created the moon (Earth) for us so that we can count the twelve months. The Quran is easy to understand. Therefore, the easy understanding of verse 936, 2189, 1433 is 1 moon cycle = 1 month. After counting 12 moon cycles we reset the count back to one again. There is nothing more and nothing less (no 13 moon nonsense). The moon cycles every 29.530 days.
The length of the solar cycle is 365.242 days. The Earth?s spin gives us days and nights. That is the service provided by the sun.
Pure solar and lunar cycles (calendars) are continually adrift against the seasons i.e. there is no connection between the seasons and the solar and lunar cycle. This is your Lord?s design. Are you questioning His design? Then why are you trying to connect the seasons to the solar and lunar cycles and bring new law to us? Are you trying to lead us astray? Or have you received a revelation from Him?
Yes, I have received revelation from him and so have you. We both received 1712 but you are ignoring it while I am not
17.12. We have made the night and the day as two signs the sign of the night We have obscured, while the sign of the day we have made visible so that you may seek favors from your Lord, and so that you may know the number of years and the calculation, and We have explained all things in detail.
How can you determine the number of years using the ?night and the day?? The ONLY way to use the night and the day to determine the number of years is to count the interval between shortest/longest day and the shortest/longest night, in other words the interval between either the summer solstices or winter solstices. So the sign in 1712 leaves absolutely no doubt that the year is primarily solar.
So you are in fact violating 936 EVERY SINGLE YEAR because you are counting 12.3 ?months? in a 1712 year. Also, 936-37 is about not violating the god?s restriction. What is restricted is hunting wild life, which follows the solar cycle. This is an indisputable fact.
Also, where does the word ?moon?, ?month? or ?year? occur in 2189? You clearly don?t even understand the simple facts in 2189.
Please read carefully 1433 and 105 and note that they talk about using the sun AND the moon. Why do you reject the god?s words and not use both?
If the God wanted the season connection then He would have designed solar and lunar cycle accordingly.
He did. When you count ONLY 12 full moons EVERY SINGLE YEAR as the god commanded you in 936, then the cycle is adjusted effortlessly and automatically and without relying on religious authorities.
The similitude is like this ?The God tells us to worship Him alone? but most people do the opposite. Likewise, the God tells us not to make new religious law (e.g. start fasting in hot full moon) but many of us do. The God has just the right punishment waiting for the disbeliever. Just wait and see.
I am waiting with you.
The God said if you cannot fast in the month of Ramadan due to illness you can make it up another time. He did not say you will get less credit because you did not fast in the month of Ramadan. This proves that there are no seasonal ties to the fasting month.
This proves nothing except that you have no real argument.
Of course, there is nothing wrong in using solar cycle or lunar cycle or both together to solve some worldly problems such as determining the most optimum time to sow seeds. These are the deviation and not the standard. The standards are the natural lunar and solar cycles and according to the Quran our religious matter must be based on these standards.
You mean the Umar calendar standard and not the god?s standard.
?This is confirmed by archeological evidence from coins and manuscripts of the era. ?
Flawed approach If you accept this then you must also accept Jesus as son of God, Idol worship and other nonsense archeological dig. Remember you cannot pick and choose evidence after you have accepted the archeological approach to determine truth from falsehood i.e. any archeological find is truth. How do you handle a situation where today?s archeological finding is contradicted by future archeological findings? How do you account for true evidence that is lost for ever? How do you define a complete archeological evidence set? A conclusion based on a incomplete set of evidence is not trustworthy (equates to hearsay, hadith). Do you believe in king Tut and sun worship?
The god orders people to walk the earth and look at the traces left by those before them in passages such as 309 and others. Why do you reject 309? The conclusions that one reaches based on studying the archeological evidence will depend on the person?s intelligence, objectivity and level of rational thinking and lack of bias. While someone like you would come to the conclusion that Jesus is the son of god (the god be most exalted above what they describe), someone like me wouldn?t.
?So the timing of Ramadan today is dependent not only on the sighting of the new crescent moon but on an arbitrary decision that was made many centuries ago.?
Tying a calendar to an event does not change the lunar cycle. Therefore, the arbitrary decision problem you are instigating has no merit.
It is not my problem that you don?t even know what you are following. You ignore that you are following a calendar. Since you are following a calendar that starts at a certain manmade year ONE and that has a certain manmade order of the months. The starting point of the calendar and the order of the months HAVE NOTHING TO DO with the lunar or solar cycles and are completely arbitrary manmade decisions. It is an indisputable fact that had the Umar calendar been made to start three years earlier then you would be fasting Ramadhan in what is now Sha3ban. It is also an indisputable fact that had the manmade order of the months been different then you would be fasting an entirely different month. So for all intents and purposes, sectarians are fasting a 100% arbitrary manmade month.
?The only derivative from "R-M-Dh" in the great reading is the word "ramadhan", which occurs only once. Hence, there is no way to compare directly the meaning with how it is used in other verses.?
A righteous person would have stop right here. However, a deviated person would go witch hunting for information that does not exist.
?According to Classical Arabic dictionaries, the Arabs used to call the moon "shahr". But what phase of the moon does the word "shahr" imply??
Classical Arabic dictionaries = Hadith (hearsay). Is dictionary your idol?
How did you learn Arabic so that you can read the great reading? You learned it from grammar books and dictionaries. Are grammar books and dictionaries and school books your idol? Don?t be a hypocrite. One can use dictionaries and grammar books as long as one knows their limits and uses them intelligently, is aware of their weaknesses and mistakes and validates them against the great reading.
Are you saying that Prophet Muhammad use to do what you are advocating or Prophet did it wrong? If Prophet Muhammad did it your way then where is your evidence of deviation (when did people start to deviate).
No. You are the one who is implying that the prophet followed the wrong timing. You are following Umar?s calendar which was backdated to the supposed year of the Hijra, therefore implying that the prophet fasted on the wrong dates.
Peace,
Ayman
-
-
A-salaam alaikum
Thank you for your explenation Ayman, seems logical to me. I have a few questions if you or anyone without taking too much of your time wont mind answering or directing me to sites that have answered these questions before
-
There seems to be many celebrations or special timings in Islam like Eid, night of measure, ramadan etc. Where in the Quran is the evidence for this? Do we know the exact dates or timings to observe these special events?
-
Ayman, you mentioned Umar's calander, when was this invented? If this was a later addition, where did the need to change come from? I was always lead to believe that this timing system was present in the time of the prophet.
-
How about the name of the months, who gave them the names they have today? History is amazing!
This is really strange that I am asking these questions coming from a muslim background. I suddenly feel liberated and following a path which feels clearer to me, more logical and in line with the Quran. I always had questions before but was always told not to question what I had no knowledge of and the people at the top were specially chosen to lead us as their spirit was closest to God (holy people). As a result I have had many questions burning inside me for so long. Sorry just wanted to share that bit with you all
Peace to you all.
-
-
Peace Hope4,
Thank you for your explenation Ayman, seems logical to me. I have a few questions if you or anyone without taking too much of your time wont mind answering or directing me to sites that have answered these questions before
- There seems to be many celebrations or special timings in Islam like Eid, night of measure, ramadan etc. Where in the Quran is the evidence for this? Do we know the exact dates or timings to observe these special events?
This whole thread is about the timing of ?shahr ramadhan? and the night of measure. As for the various Islamic Eids, we can take a day of rest but it is wrong to claim that the god ordered us to rest on a certain day (7163).
- Ayman, you mentioned Umar's calander, when was this invented? If this was a later addition, where did the need to change come from? I was always lead to believe that this timing system was present in the time of the prophet.
The need to change came about when the Islamic Empire became an Empire and thus needed to establish its own standards.
- How about the name of the months, who gave them the names they have today? History is amazing!
Some of the names came from the Jewish calendar while others came from the calendar of the nomads. The names of the day of the week came directly from the Jewish calendar.
http//www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/The%20Islamic%20Jewish%20Calendar.pdf
However, the order of the months seems to have been rearranged when the calendar was disconnected from the seasons. For example, in the calendar of the nomads, Rabi3 Al-Awwal (first grazing) occurred in spring while Rabi3 Al-Thanni (second grazing) occurred in early fall. It seems that a modified purely lunar Jewish calendar was adopted but the months were given Arab names to satisfy the Arab nationalistic orientation of the new empire.
This is really strange that I am asking these questions coming from a muslim background. I suddenly feel liberated and following a path which feels clearer to me, more logical and in line with the Quran. I always had questions before but was always told not to question what I had no knowledge of and the people at the top were specially chosen to lead us as their spirit was closest to God (holy people). As a result I have had many questions burning inside me for so long. Sorry just wanted to share that bit with you all
Thank you for sharing. Everyone here is on the same road towards the truth.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace Ayman
Thank you for taking the time to reply, very enlightening. The link to the Islamic Jewish Calendar is amazing, deffinitly did not know that before! Its amazing what we follow for years without questioning. May God help us make progress in our journey of knowledge and keep us on the right path.
Peace
Hope
-
Peace Ayman
Thank you for taking the time to reply, very enlightening. The link to the Islamic Jewish Calendar is amazing, deffinitly did not know that before! Its amazing what we follow for years without questioning. May God help us make progress in our journey of knowledge and keep us on the right path.
Peace
Hope
you are right bro welcome
-
Peace Hope4,
?My question is where in them verses does it say that the cycle of the moon = 1 month??
The God said that the sun and the moon should be used for timing purpose (calculate time). He also said there are 12 months. And verse 555 - ?The sun and the moon are perfectly calculated.? Therefore, our timing system should be based on moon and sun and not man made seasons based system. Sun gives us days, nights, and 365.242 days period. The sun cannot give us month. It is not designed to do so. In this system the month has to be man made. The moon gives us about 29.5 days cycle. Therefore, an easy deduction is 1 month = 1 moon cycle. This is consistent with the God's law because nothing is added or taken away from the moon cycle. The sun provides us with days and nights which can be used to calculate a year (12*29.5=354 days). All man made calendars are non-compliant with the God?s law. Only the Islamic calendar is moon based and in fully compliant with the God's law. Julian calendar is purely sun based but there is no means for calculating a month in accordance with the God?s law.
?Logic tells me we are using a good calander system now which determines the seasons and natural system that god provided for us.?
No, because they are not based on the God's law. They manipulate days in all the months to maintain synch with seasons which is violation of 555. Even with all the manipulation the calendar is still off by 18 hrs per year. Ayman is using this wrong system to disprove the God's timing system. There is no connection between seasons and the 12 months. Please show me a verse that says our calendar should be based on seasons.
-
Peace Guest,
Ayman is using this wrong system to disprove the God's timing system. There is no connection between seasons and the 12 months. Please show me a verse that says our calendar should be based on seasons.
Unless you take Umar as your god, I only disproved Umar's Calendar system. You admit above that the timing should be based on BOTH the sun and the moon. It is an indisputable fact that the sun is what determines the seasons. So you are contradicting yourself. Also, you continue to ignore 1712 which clearly says that the number of years is determined by the day and night (i.e., the interval between solstices) and doesn't mention the moon at all. It is impossible to have a 354 days period delineated by the day and night. According to 555, the system based on the great reading should be luni-solar as I described at the start of this long thread while your Umar system is a completely useless lunar system that even its most ardent supporters hypocritically ignore when it comes to any practical purposes.
Peace,
Ayman
-
The Quranic calendar is a lunar calendar with 12 lunar cycles in a lunar year. The Solar year is not counted but the seasons determine the months. So Ramadan doesn't have a fixed position in the calendar but moves within the calendar to be fixed with the seasons.
It is like having January the first month in one year and the second months in another.
So Ramadan has no fixed position in the calendar and no lunar cycle is brushed off as being intercalary.
Thats the only way to respect both the sun and the moon.
-
Peace Ayman,
You say ?The restriction is about hunting wild life.?
I am not questioning the hunting restriction rather I am questioning your definition of Ramadan in the first restricted full-moon after the summer solstice. Perhaps you forgot what you have said. Here is what I am questioning
?So now that we have this puzzle finally solved, let's turn our attention back to the restricted full-moons. We already determined that the first full-moon after the summer solstice (the full-moon of "ramadhan" is the first restricted full-moon. Hence, counting four full-moons beginning with the first full-moon after the summer solstice would give us the restricted four full-moons and as usual.....?
This theory of yours contradicts Quranic verses and does not pass common sense test. The rationale for my position is provided in the previous post of mine.
You say ?Wild life follows the solar cycle, not the lunar one.?
No, they follow neither. They are appreciative of the God and follow the God given instinct. The animals are not aware of man made calendars. I think you may have missed my definition of solar and lunar timing system in the previous post. Let me define it again for you.
The God's Timing system
The God's solar cycle = 365.242 days
The God's moon cycle =29.530 days
555 - ?The sun and the moon are perfectly calculated.?
These are the definition I follow to calculate the twelve months and to perform religious duties. Accordingly, my month = 29.530 days. This is the God's system. Therefore, please don't ask me to deviate from this system. Also, note that there is no connection between these definition and the seasons. However, people who try to discredit the God's system would tie the seasons to solar or lunar cycle and say that the God's timing system is wrong because it does not synchronize with the seasons and therefore should be abandoned. Ayman is suggesting that we shun the God's timing system and use the man made timing system in violation of 555.
The currently used Islamic calendar is based on the God's moon cycle (29.530 days). Therefore, this is the perfect timing system.
Now let us look at Ayman timing system
The man made solar cycle = The God's solar cycle + Augmented days to maintain sync with seasons (365.242+delta; different days in months e.g. 28, 29, 30, 31, four year day adjustment, etc.)
The man made moon cycle = The God's solar cycle + Augmented days to maintain sync with seasons (13 moon nonsense)
I hope you see the difference between the God's timing system and the man made timing system. Nowhere in the Quran do we find the God telling us to define a season based timing system and to use it for religious purpose.
Instead this is what the God said
2189 - They ask you about the phases of the moon! Say, ?They provide a timing device for the people, and determine the time of Hajj, it is ....
The moon?s phases are parts of 29.530 days. It provides finer counts within a month. It is the natural cycle of the moon that are to be used for counting time and not Ayman's deviated (man made) solar or lunar calendar.
105 - He is the One who rendered the sun radiant, and the moon a light, and He designed its phases that you may learn to count the years and to calculate.....
8418 - And the moon and its phases.
Yes, moon is our timing system and the sun gives us days and nights.
1433 - He has committed the sun and the moon in your service, continuously... (NOT AUGMENTED MOON CYCLE)
You say ?The cycle of wild life is different between the southern and the northern hemispheres. So it is normal that the restriction period would also be different.?
Wildlife cycle is a non-issue. The problem is Ramadan in the restricted periods of South hemisphere and north hemisphere implies two nights of destiny approximately six months apart.
You say ?Firstly, it is the night of ?measure? not ?destiny?.?
First you said destiny then you say it is measure. This is a Flip-Flop. What will it be tomorrow?
You say ?He also said that the night of measure is PEACEFUL until the rise of daybreak. It is an indisputable reality that there is not a single night of the year where people suddenly stop fighting wars and peace on earth is achieved and criminals don't rob or kill.?
The believers are at peace. The disbelievers are in the hellfire. The God always takes good care of the believers.
You say ?Prophet Muhammad wasn?t in America or Morocco or Tokyo. The ?night? in those locations occurs at a different time than in Arabia. So those ?nights of measure? are not the right ones either according to your logic.
My logic is one continuous night that encompasses both northern hemisphere and southern hemisphere. May be the Quran was reveled in the first half of the night (i.e. night in Middle East). Every body gets one night and one dawn.
You say ?Also, using your logic, the problem is that we don?t find Prophet Muhammad anywhere since he is dead, so there is no night of measure.?
Prophet was not dead at the time he got the revelation (night of destiny). According to your hottest full-moon theory Prophet Muhammad should have been in southern hemisphere. But we know he lived in the northern hemisphere. Therefore, someone else living in southern hemisphere must have gotten the revelation. This contradicts the Quran.You say ?How can you determine the number of years using the ?night and the day?? The ONLY way to use the night and the day to determine the number of years is to count the interval between shortest/longest day and the shortest/longest night, in other words the interval between either the summer solstices or winter solstices. So the sign in 1712 leaves absolutely no doubt that the year is primarily solar.?
Here is an example of how you count a year (12 months) using days and nights. I will round the moon cycle to 29.5 days and then multiply it by 12 months to get 354 days. I keep count of days and when it reaches 354 days I mark it as a year. I have used both sun and the moon to calculate a year.
You say ?You mean the Umar calendar standard and not the god?s standard.?
Please read my definition of solar and lunar timing system again to get a clear understanding. Fixing an initial point does not impact the timing in the God?s system. The problem arises with your convoluted timing system.
You say ?The god orders people to walk the earth and look at the traces left by those before them in passages such as 309 and others. Why do you reject 309? The conclusions that one reaches based on studying the archeological evidence will depend on the person?s intelligence, objectivity and level of rational thinking and lack of bias. While someone like you would come to the conclusion that Jesus is the son of god (the god be most exalted above what they describe), someone like me wouldn?t.?
You failed to understand the point I was trying to make. But I am not surprised about it. If you ever get it, you will know how awful a job you did. I would never use an approach that would accept Jesus as a son of the God.You say ?It is an indisputable fact that had the Umar calendar been made to start three years earlier then you would be fasting Ramadhan in what is now Sha3ban. It is also an indisputable fact that had the manmade order of the months been different then you would be fasting an entirely different month. So for all intents and purposes, sectarians are fasting a 100% arbitrary manmade month.?
I don't have this problem. My timing is not based on man made timing system like yours. This is a problem for you because you are following a timing system that is not authorized by the God.
You say ?How did you learn Arabic so that you can read the great reading? You learned it from grammar books and dictionaries. Are grammar books and dictionaries and school books your idol? Don?t be a hypocrite. One can use dictionaries and grammar books as long as one knows their limits and uses them intelligently, is aware of their weaknesses and mistakes and validates them against the great reading.?
If I follow your logic ?One can use dictionaries and grammar books as long as one knows their limits and uses them intelligently? then I will have to accept hadith and other man made things.
Talking language is typically learned from mother, friends, elders, and other sources. Then come reading and writing. After this one is ready deal with worldly matter. But when it comes to understanding the Quran one must use the God given instinct (innermost thoughts) to validate the meaning of Quran. Dictionary meanings are usually misleading. The problem here was though as if you are advocating the use of classic Arabic dictionary exclusively. The message I got was from reading your article ?look at the gold mine I found using the dictionary?. You did not provide any warning ?kids don?t try it at home?.
-
Peace Guest,
You say ?The restriction is about hunting wild life.?
I am not questioning the hunting restriction rather I am questioning your definition of Ramadan in the first restricted full-moon after the summer solstice. Perhaps you forgot what you have said. Here is what I am questioning
?So now that we have this puzzle finally solved, let's turn our attention back to the restricted full-moons. We already determined that the first full-moon after the summer solstice (the full-moon of "ramadhan" is the first restricted full-moon. Hence, counting four full-moons beginning with the first full-moon after the summer solstice would give us the restricted four full-moons and as usual.....?
This theory of yours contradicts Quranic verses and does not pass common sense test. The rationale for my position is provided in the previous post of mine.I already demonstrated that your previous post has nothing to do with the great reading. You are defending the Umar Calendar using nonsensical arguments such as that the seasons are not determined by the sun and falsely attributing Umar?s calendar to the god.
You say ?Wild life follows the solar cycle, not the lunar one.?
No, they follow neither. They are appreciative of the God and follow the God given instinct. The animals are not aware of man made calendars.It is not my fault that you don?t understand that the solar cycle is NOT a manmade calendar, unless you are suggesting that man created the sun. The animals are certainly aware of the solar cycle despite whatever you say.
I think you may have missed my definition of solar and lunar timing system in the previous post. Let me define it again for you.
The God's Timing system
The God's solar cycle = 365.242 days
The God's moon cycle =29.530 days
555 - ?The sun and the moon are perfectly calculated.?
These are the definition I follow to calculate the twelve months and to perform religious duties. Accordingly, my month = 29.530 days. This is the God's system. Therefore, please don't ask me to deviate from this system.But you violate your own definition and completely ignore the solar cycle.
Also, note that there is no connection between these definition and the seasons.
It is not my problem that you are the only one in the world who ignores that the solar cycle and the seasons are connected.
However, people who try to discredit the God's system would tie the seasons to solar or lunar cycle and say that the God's timing system is wrong because it does not synchronize with the seasons and therefore should be abandoned. Ayman is suggesting that we shun the God's timing system and use the man made timing system in violation of 555.
The currently used Islamic calendar is based on the God's moon cycle (29.530 days). Therefore, this is the perfect timing system.It is not my fault that you ignore the god?s words in 1712, 555, etc. which clearly tell us that we should use the sun AND the moon.
Now let us look at Ayman timing system
The man made solar cycle = The God's solar cycle + Augmented days to maintain sync with seasons (365.242+delta; different days in months e.g. 28, 29, 30, 31, four year day adjustment, etc.)I never proposed manmade days to sync up anything. The solar cycle is the interval between the solstices as per 1712. This will always be true and there is no need for any augmented days.
The man made moon cycle = The God's solar cycle + Augmented days to maintain sync with seasons (13 moon nonsense)
I never proposed any "Augmented days". All I said is what is said in 936, namely to count EXACTLY 12 full-moons within EVERY SINGLE solar cycle.
I hope you see the difference between the God's timing system and the man made timing system. Nowhere in the Quran do we find the God telling us to define a season based timing system and to use it for religious purpose.
Again, it is not my problem that you are the only one in the world who ignores that the solar cycle and the seasons are connected.
Instead this is what the God said
2189 - They ask you about the phases of the moon! Say, ?They provide a timing device for the people, and determine the time of Hajj, it is ....There is nothing about determining the number of years in 2189 so your basis is not the god?s words but Umar.
The moon?s phases are parts of 29.530 days. It provides finer counts within a month. It is the natural cycle of the moon that are to be used for counting time and not Ayman's deviated (man made) solar or lunar calendar.
105 - He is the One who rendered the sun radiant, and the moon a light, and He designed its phases that you may learn to count the years and to calculate.....
8418 - And the moon and its phases.
Yes, moon is our timing system and the sun gives us days and nights.
1433 - He has committed the sun and the moon in your service, continuously... (NOT AUGMENTED MOON CYCLE)You ignore the sun in 105 and that day and night (the solstices) are used to determine the year as per 1712, while the moon is used to determine the divisions within the solar year as per 936, etc. You are blindly following the Umar system.
This is why you will never be able to tell us how you can use the day and night ALONE to determine the number of years as per 1712.
You say ?The cycle of wild life is different between the southern and the northern hemispheres. So it is normal that the restriction period would also be different.?
Wildlife cycle is a non-issue. The problem is Ramadan in the restricted periods of South hemisphere and north hemisphere implies two nights of destiny approximately six months apart.Wildlife is a non-issue for non-believers because per 937 non-believers don?t care about violating the god's restriction on hunting wildlife.
You say ?Firstly, it is the night of ?measure? not ?destiny?.?
First you said destiny then you say it is measure. This is a Flip-Flop. What will it be tomorrow?You sound like George Bush. When cornered logically, you resort to useless noise.
You say ?He also said that the night of measure is PEACEFUL until the rise of daybreak. It is an indisputable reality that there is not a single night of the year where people suddenly stop fighting wars and peace on earth is achieved and criminals don't rob or kill.?
The believers are at peace. The disbelievers are in the hellfire. The God always takes good care of the believers.So it depends on the person and they would experience this whether they are in the southern or northern hemispheres. This destroys your previous argument.
You say ?Prophet Muhammad wasn?t in America or Morocco or Tokyo. The ?night? in those locations occurs at a different time than in Arabia. So those ?nights of measure? are not the right ones either according to your logic.
My logic is one continuous night that encompasses both northern hemisphere and southern hemisphere. May be the Quran was reveled in the first half of the night (i.e. night in Middle East). Every body gets one night and one dawn.
It is an indisputable fact that not everybody gets the night and dawn at the same time as in Arabia. Your idea about the first half of the night in the Middle East is nothing but conjecture.
You say ?Also, using your logic, the problem is that we don?t find Prophet Muhammad anywhere since he is dead, so there is no night of measure.?
Prophet was not dead at the time he got the revelation (night of destiny). According to your hottest full-moon theory Prophet Muhammad should have been in southern hemisphere. But we know he lived in the northern hemisphere. Therefore, someone else living in southern hemisphere must have gotten the revelation. This contradicts the Quran.But you said above that experiencing this night depends on the person. You are contradicting yourself again.
You say ?How can you determine the number of years using the ?night and the day?? The ONLY way to use the night and the day to determine the number of years is to count the interval between shortest/longest day and the shortest/longest night, in other words the interval between either the summer solstices or winter solstices. So the sign in 1712 leaves absolutely no doubt that the year is primarily solar.?
Here is an example of how you count a year (12 months) using days and nights. I will round the moon cycle to 29.5 days and then multiply it by 12 months to get 354 days. I keep count of days and when it reaches 354 days I mark it as a year. I have used both sun and the moon to calculate a year.
1712 clearly mentions ONLY the night and day to determine the number of years and there is nothing about half days or the lunar cycle. Also, the lunar year is not exactly 354 days so using this method, eventually your 1712 year will be out of sync with the lunar cycle. The only way to determine the number of years using ONLY the night and day per 1712 is to keep looking at night and day and count the interval between the longest/shortest night/day and the next longest/shortest night/day, in other words the interval between solstices. This method is self-adjusting and never needs ?augmented days?.
You say ?You mean the Umar calendar standard and not the god?s standard.?
Please read my definition of solar and lunar timing system again to get a clear understanding. Fixing an initial point does not impact the timing in the God?s system. The problem arises with your convoluted timing system.It is not my problem that you are ignorant of the fact that fixing an initial point DOES impact the timing in your manmade system. It is an indisputable fact that had the initial point been fixed three years earlier then you would be happily fasting a month earlier in what is now Shaaban.
It is also not my problem that you are ignorant of the fact that the manmade order of the months in your manmade system DOES impact the timing. It is another indisputable fact that had the arbitrary order of the months been different then you would be happily fasting a completely different random month.
You say ?The god orders people to walk the earth and look at the traces left by those before them in passages such as 309 and others. Why do you reject 309? The conclusions that one reaches based on studying the archeological evidence will depend on the person?s intelligence, objectivity and level of rational thinking and lack of bias. While someone like you would come to the conclusion that Jesus is the son of god (the god be most exalted above what they describe), someone like me wouldn?t.?
You failed to understand the point I was trying to make. But I am not surprised about it. If you ever get it, you will know how awful a job you did. I would never use an approach that would accept Jesus as a son of the God.Ignorant people would reach the wrong conclusion no matter what. Even the great reading can?t help them.
You say ?It is an indisputable fact that had the Umar calendar been made to start three years earlier then you would be fasting Ramadhan in what is now Sha3ban. It is also an indisputable fact that had the manmade order of the months been different then you would be fasting an entirely different month. So for all intents and purposes, sectarians are fasting a 100% arbitrary manmade month.?
I don't have this problem. My timing is not based on man made timing system like yours. This is a problem for you because you are following a timing system that is not authorized by the God.
Whether you like it or not it is an indisputable fact that you would be fasting in what is now Shaaban had the initial point of the timing been made three years earlier. Had it been made three years later, you would be fasting in what is now Shawwal, etc.
The same thing goes for the manmade arbitrary week. Had the people who made up the seven day week started it a day earlier then what is now Thursday would have been Friday and you would be doing your Friday prayer on what is now Thursday and the Jews would be resting on what is now Friday and the Christians would go to church on what is now Saturday. What is common amongst all those people is that, like you, they follow arbitrary manmade junk and falsely attribute it to the god.
You say ?How did you learn Arabic so that you can read the great reading? You learned it from grammar books and dictionaries. Are grammar books and dictionaries and school books your idol? Don?t be a hypocrite. One can use dictionaries and grammar books as long as one knows their limits and uses them intelligently, is aware of their weaknesses and mistakes and validates them against the great reading.?
If I follow your logic ?One can use dictionaries and grammar books as long as one knows their limits and uses them intelligently? then I will have to accept hadith and other man made things.
I accept the Hadiths of Bukhari as an indication of the dogmatic discussions going on during the late Abbasid era. I don?t accept them as the Hadiths of the prophet. In fact, when I study Hadiths and see all the inconsistencies and nonsense in them, I appreciate the amazing consistency and logic in the great reading even more. The misguided way of the lost serves as a contrast to the straight path (16-7).
Talking language is typically learned from mother, friends, elders, and other sources. Then come reading and writing. After this one is ready deal with worldly matter. But when it comes to understanding the Quran one must use the God given instinct (innermost thoughts) to validate the meaning of Quran. Dictionary meanings are usually misleading. The problem here was though as if you are advocating the use of classic Arabic dictionary exclusively. The message I got was from reading your article ?look at the gold mine I found using the dictionary?. You did not provide any warning ?kids don?t try it at home?.
I agree. Please see the disclaimer at the end of the article.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace Ayman,
You say ?It is not my fault that you don?t understand that the solar cycle is NOT a manmade calendar, unless you are suggesting that man created the sun. The animals are certainly aware of the solar cycle despite whatever you say.?
In order to bring this matter to proper conclusion, we will have to proceed in little steps.
Step one Please give me your definition of solar cycle.
Fair warning I am planning to use it against you. So please be careful and do not rush.
You already have my definition of solar cycle.
We will proceed to step 2 after completing step 1. Thank you.
-
Peace Ayman,
You say ?It is not my fault that you don?t understand that the solar cycle is NOT a manmade calendar, unless you are suggesting that man created the sun. The animals are certainly aware of the solar cycle despite whatever you say.?
In order to bring this matter to proper conclusion, we will have to proceed in little steps.
Step one Please give me your definition of solar cycle.
Fair warning I am planning to use it against you. So please be careful and do not rush.
You already have my definition of solar cycle.
We will proceed to step 2 after completing step 1. Thank you.
The calendar that derives from the Earth's orbit about the sun is definitely man made, ie, the months, weeks, number of days in a month, hours, etc. But the orbit of the Earth, it's rotation, the tilt, etc is most definitely NOT man made. Nor the orbit of the moon.
-
Peace Rev.John,
Quote ?The calendar that derives from the Earth's orbit about the sun is definitely man made, ie, the months, weeks, number of days in a month, hours, etc. But the orbit of the Earth, it's rotation, the tilt, etc is most definitely NOT man made. Nor the orbit of the moon.?
You are correct. However, it is very difficult get this simple point across to some people in this forum. For high level discussion, I accept the scientific data of 29.5 days moon cycle. I don?t even have to do that because I can observe the moon myself if it came to it. That?s what previous generation did. You would think the person who is trying to make a drastic change in Islamic calendar would come equipped with such a simple knowledge. Most people will not accept the fact that Quran is easy to understand.
With this fact ?But the orbit of the Earth, it's rotation, the tilt, etc is most definitely NOT man made. Nor the orbit of the moon.? And the fact that Earth?s rotation around the sun does NOT synch up with the seasons, destroys Ayman?s hypothesis. Every year the season will drift away just like the moon cycles, except at a much slower pace. To correct this problem, people use different numbers of days in months, the lip year and so on.
This is all true, and with the slowing of the Earth's orbit and rotation and the receding moon it makes it almost impossible to have an accurate clock let alone a calender.
-
Peace Guest,
You say ?It is not my fault that you don?t understand that the solar cycle is NOT a manmade calendar, unless you are suggesting that man created the sun. The animals are certainly aware of the solar cycle despite whatever you say.?
In order to bring this matter to proper conclusion, we will have to proceed in little steps.
Step one Please give me your definition of solar cycle.It is not my definition. It is the definition according to 1712. I already gave it to you many times. Here it is one more time, so please read
The solar cycle is the interval between the longest/shortest night/day and the next longest/shortest night/day, in other words the interval between solstices, either between two winter solstices or two summer solstices.
Fair warning I am planning to use it against you. So please be careful and do not rush.
Take your best shot.
You already have my definition of solar cycle.
We will proceed to step 2 after completing step 1. Thank you.You didn't give any definition. You said it is 365.242 days. This is a result of the definition and not the definition. Please tell everyone how you found out that the solar cycle is 365.242 days.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace Rev.John,
The calendar that derives from the Earth's orbit about the sun is definitely man made, ie, the months, weeks, number of days in a month, hours, etc. But the orbit of the Earth, it's rotation, the tilt, etc is most definitely NOT man made. Nor the orbit of the moon.
All calendars are manmade. Cosmic phenomenon are not manmade. The solar cycle is not manmade. The best way to determine the solar cycle is given in 1712. The solar cycle is basically the interval between summer or winter solstices. The lunar cycle can be used to make divisions within the year by counting exactly 12 full-moons every single solar year (between solstices) and skipping the occasional 13th full-moon. This effortlessly and automatically adjusts the lunar cycle without having to rely on corrupt religeous authorities.
The year is certainly based on the interval between solstices and not based on the lunar cycle. With or without humans, the earth, trees, birds, animals, etc. all follow this solar cycle so it is certainly not manmade. On the other hand, no animal hibernates 11 days earlier every year or tree blooms 11 days earlier every year. Only hypocritical humans follow the lunar cycle to determine the year, in blatant violation of the god's system.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace Ayman,
Guest is obviously confusing your definition of a solar cycle based on 1712 with the incorrect manmade solar calendar of 365 days. In other words he is using strawman fallacy and I hope he realizes that. The solar cycle as determined by the interval between summer or winter solstices will NEVER EVER be out of synch with the seasons and counting of only 12 full-moons in a solar cycle will ALWAYS keep the full-moons in synch with the seasons unless the god wills otherwise (i.e. the present cosmic system/universe is destroyed).