Hot/"ramadan" Answer

guest

Peace siki,

Quote ?Over a period of time it dawned on you that it was easy to keep track of this bright full moon, and what a fool you were when you kept the count with waxing cresent.?

And how do you make distinction between

moon of day before the full-moon
Full-moon
Moon of day after the full-moon

Without the use of a telescope or a binocular.

I am assuming that this stranded person does not have quartz base Rolex watch on him.

guest

Peace ramzi,

I don?t understand the question "Why? Is the time between longest/shortest day/night not God given?"

However, if you meant ?longest/shortest day/night and the next longest/shortest day/night? then the answer is this

The count of days is man made and it is subject to an error. Is it 365 days or 365.2xx days? The fraction of the day is part of the solar cycle and has to be taken into account. But Ayman?s system does not allow that because he chose the unit?s to be day and night. Therefore, Ayman?s timing system is not in synch with the God given solar cycle. Additionally, Ayman?s system will drift with seasons, like lunar based time system, caused by neglecting the fraction of a day in the God give solar cycle.

hope4

Peace Guest

I think you have misunderstood me when I said he (Umar) has changed the system. I did not suggest that the lunar cycles were changed or their lengths. I ment the calendar in use. Questions I set are not because I have knowledge or evidence that I can produce or that I am trying to change anyones mind but to understand historic events of how it was and what changed us through out the years. I am assuming it was for these very reasons that muslims divided into secs as they could not agree on particular things.

Also, If you see my second post just after the one you decided to answer you can see I have been trying to read and understand what is going on. I also placed a source of reference of what I was reading.

So let me conclude what I understand so far (I am not saying I am right, just stating my understanding of what I have been reading).

Muslims in the day of the Prophet used to follow the jewish calendar system were an extra month was added now and again to keep the calendar in sink with seasons.
One of the last surah's to be revealled to the Prophet was Surah 9 in which a verse read

936 The count of the months with God is twelve months in the book
of God the day He created the heavens and the earth; four of
them are restricted. This is the correct system; so do not wrong
yourselves in them; and fight the polytheists collectively as they
fight you collectively. And know that God is with the righteous.

Our Prophet after this revelation rejected the Jewish calendar in use in the early part of Islam and adopted a strickly lunar calendar.
Umar according to my background reading, did not change the calendar but fixed a starting date. This was done so that documents could be correctly dated.

We are all in search for the truth Guest and I am no different to you or anyone on this site. When I ask questions its because I want to gain different points of view and search my heart for the one that I feel is right.

Further more, Quote This is a baseless accusation without any valid evidence. Produce your evidence if you speak the truth. If you are 100% certain that you are speaking the truth then invoke the curse of Allah by saying ? If I am lying make my life hell in this world and on the day of judgment I will voluntarily enter hell for ever, also give me cancer of the worst kind if I am a liar."

Why would you say something like that? All I did was ask a question. It would have been better to use less agression in your post by simply saying I really dont know why, than trying to get me to wish something on myself so terrible as your quote. You must understand I am not attacking anyone in any of my posts, and if it seemed that way to you then appologies. You must understand I have many years to catch up on my islamic knowledge, so from time to time it may seem I am asking obvious questions but you must excuse that and be patient.

May God lead us all in the right path

Peace

Hope

unknownuser

Peace all --

Muslims in the day of the Prophet used to follow the jewish calendar system were an extra month was added now and again to keep the calendar in sink with seasons.

How do you know this?

One of the last surah's to be revealled to the Prophet was Surah 9 in which a verse read

How do you know which was first and which was last or which parts where first and which parts where last?

Our Prophet after this revelation rejected the Jewish calendar in use in the early part of Islam and adopted a strickly lunar calendar.

How do you know this?

Umar according to my background reading, did not change the calendar but fixed a starting date. This was done so that documents could be correctly dated.

How do you know this? Umar ruled on a number of things including stoning, how to distribute inheritance and interpreted much of the book according to whatever ideas popped in his head or in the minds of people after him according to whatever opinions they had -- attribute it to whoever back in the day give it legitimacy.

Further more, Quote This is a baseless accusation without any valid evidence. Produce your evidence if you speak the truth. If you are 100% certain that you are speaking the truth then invoke the curse of Allah by saying ? If I am lying make my life hell in this world and on the day of judgment I will voluntarily enter hell for ever, also give me cancer of the worst kind if I am a liar."

Sounds like someone being accused of adultery; no need for that we're only talking...lol

I'm of the opinion starting point is time = 0 the beginning...

Use "DOC" new moon crescent "D" full moon "O" end cycle "C" then restart count.

If using full moon there is a 7 day period of uncertainty as to moon phase.

http//www.almanac.com/astronomy/moon/calendar/index.php?monthyear=8/2009

begin month/year 1
ramadan 29.53059
2___ 59.06118
3___ 88.59177
4___ 118.12236
5___ 147.65295
6___ 177.18354
7___ 206.71413
8___ 236.24472
9___ 265.77531
10__ 295.3059
11__ 324.83649
12__ 354.36708
ramadan 365.242199 begin year 2

Perhaps take difference (lunar - solstice) calculate where we are at currently in the cycle.

The other thing is it may be the same with how to exactly pray; really doesn't matter, start anywhere in the cycle -- not much difference between time slices and what matters is the current moment the only reality.

Peace

hope4

Peace Eid Abdullah

Muslims in the day of the Prophet used to follow the jewish calendar system were an extra month was added now and again to keep the calendar in sink with seasons.

How do you know this?

Quote
2. One of the last surah's to be revealled to the Prophet was Surah 9 in which a verse read

How do you know which was first and which was last or which parts where first and which parts where last?

Quote
3. Our Prophet after this revelation rejected the Jewish calendar in use in the early part of Islam and adopted a strickly lunar calendar.

How do you know this?

Quote
4. Umar according to my background reading, did not change the calendar but fixed a starting date. This was done so that documents could be correctly dated.

How do you know this? Umar ruled on a number of things including stoning, how to distribute inheritance and interpreted much of the book according to whatever ideas popped in his head or in the minds of people after him according to whatever opinions they had -- attribute it to whoever back in the day give it legitimacy.

My reply is I dont really know. The summary I gave was a summary after reading a few internet sites. I am hoping that people like you will respond with your views and possibly let us know what really happened and if possible provide some evidence or suggested reading. Thank you for your reply.

Peace

Hope

siki

Peace siki,

Quote ?Over a period of time it dawned on you that it was easy to keep track of this bright full moon, and what a fool you were when you kept the count with waxing cresent.?

And how do you make distinction between

moon of day before the full-moon
Full-moon
Moon of day after the full-moon

Without the use of a telescope or a binocular.

I am assuming that this stranded person does not have quartz base Rolex watch on him.

Any time you find a full kinda moon while the sun has still not set, ignore it, look for it the next day, till,
you find first full moon which rises after the sun set,that is the one (shahar)

siki

siki

peace.

This might help a few, in understanding the problem , and God's solution.

In God's system , there is nothing like a week, hour or a minute, because there is no natural marker to count that from. God counts in days, because we have sun rise and set for calculation.
Then the next bigger unit can be a time period between two consecutive natural visible markers , that could be a period between two similar shape moons, either crescents (hilal), half moons (badars), or full moons (shahar)
There are significantly more chances of an error if we take shapes other than the full moon for counting this period.
But if we take the full moon (rounded shape) which rises soon after the sun set (the first one)to start our count, we cant miss it. That is what Quran calls as Shahar.
However we can not call the period between the two shahars as month(neither does the quran) because that is not always fixed, it would be 29, or some time 30 units.
The next important unit (in human life) is a year (around which the life exists, and gets synchronised) shortest day to a shortest day , or longest day to the next longest day. We could take any for starting a year. But then how could a human precisely calculate ( back then ) without the help of a man made device?
God selected another marker which came once yearly, after the longest day , shahar ramadhan, The Full moon in scorching heat, which had a different color shade to it , orangish yellow, rather than yellowish white.
(if you can distingusish the color shade difference between a normal tungeston bulb and a tube light, or a mercury bulb, that is precisely the color difference)
As the year could not be divided in equal monthly units, with the help of this marker, so we do not have a God's month, but Shahars to approximate an intermediate unit, ( between a year and a day)
We count shahars, and we count only 12 as per his instructions , because every three years we will find one extra between two shahars of Ramadhan. We will not count that , that is how the life around earth will be in sync with life governing/sustaining Marker, sun The sun.

In my opinion this is how God wants us to keep track of time, when He says, "I have given you sun and the moon to calculate"

siki

journeyman

Peace brothers and sister. I am new here (and new to Islam) and am getting ready to observe Ramadan for the first time. My friends are Sunni and tell me that the actual time of Ramadan is for 30 days (one can continue to fast an extra 10 days for some reason if they choose) and that it actually moves during the year because of the Islamic calender vs. the majority 365 day/year calender. I have read the posts in this thread and understand the scientific and Quranic evidence but yet no one has actually said when Ramadan should be or for how long or am I just missing something??? Please help! ???

vivek

Peace journeyman,

Peace brothers and sister. I am new here (and new to Islam) and am getting ready to observe Ramadan for the first time. My friends are Sunni and tell me that the actual time of Ramadan is for 30 days (one can continue to fast an extra 10 days for some reason if they choose) and that it actually moves during the year because of the Islamic calender vs. the majority 365 day/year calender. I have read the posts in this thread and understand the scientific and Quranic evidence but yet no one has actually said when Ramadan should be or for how long or am I just missing something??? Please help! ???

I sincerely recommend that you read Ayman's scholarly and eye-opening article on Ramadan.

Yours truly,

K.Vivekanandan

unknownuser

Any time you find a full kinda moon while the sun has still not set, ignore it, look for it the next day, till,
you find first full moon which rises after the sun set,that is the one (shahar)

siki

Last year 400 A.M. June 18th you missed this big scorching full moon illusion before summer solstice?

http//science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/images/moonillusion/Kasaitis1_strip.jpg

This might help a few, in understanding the problem , and God's solution.

In God's system , there is nothing like a week, hour or a minute, because there is no natural marker to count that from. God counts in days, because we have sun rise and set for calculation.
Then the next bigger unit can be a time period between two consecutive natural visible markers , that could be a period between two similar shape moons, either crescents (hilal), half moons (badars), or full moons (shahar)
There are significantly more chances of an error if we take shapes other than the full moon for counting this period.
But if we take the full moon (rounded shape) which rises soon after the sun set (the first one)to start our count, we cant miss it. That is what Quran calls as Shahar.

Then try to distinguish between the one?s coming up in a few days...

Aug 3 95% full moon

http//www.almanac.com/astronomy/images/m154.jpg

Aug 4 98%
http//www.almanac.com/astronomy/images/m166.jpg

Aug 5 Full Moon 856 P.M. (better be outside that exact moment to witness it not indoors or asleep)
http//www.almanac.com/astronomy/images/m176.jpg

Aug 6 100%
http//www.almanac.com/astronomy/images/m186.jpg

Aug 7 98%
http//www.almanac.com/astronomy/images/m198.jpg

However we can not call the period between the two shahars as month(neither does the quran) because that is not always fixed, it would be 29, or some time 30 units.
The next important unit (in human life) is a year (around which the life exists, and gets synchronised) shortest day to a shortest day , or longest day to the next longest day. We could take any for starting a year. But then how could a human precisely calculate ( back then ) without the help of a man made device?

Sure we can; start of Ramadan when you see ?D? ? begin fasting next day at dawn?

Aug 23 14%
http//www.almanac.com/astronomy/images/m044.jpg

Stop fasting when you see ?D? again which occurs a week after you see ?C??

Sept 14 22%
http//www.almanac.com/astronomy/images/m304.jpg

Sept 21 10%
http//www.almanac.com/astronomy/images/m038.jpg

God selected another marker which came once yearly, after the longest day , shahar ramadhan, The Full moon in scorching heat, which had a different color shade to it , orangish yellow, rather than yellowish white.
(if you can distingusish the color shade difference between a normal tungeston bulb and a tube light, or a mercury bulb, that is precisely the color difference)
As the year could not be divided in equal monthly units, with the help of this marker, so we do not have a God's month, but Shahars to approximate an intermediate unit, ( between a year and a day)
We count shahars, and we count only 12 as per his instructions , because every three years we will find one extra between two shahars of Ramadhan. We will not count that , that is how the life around earth will be in sync with life governing/sustaining Marker, sun The sun.

In my opinion this is how God wants us to keep track of time, when He says, "I have given you sun and the moon to calculate"

siki

Skipping full moons is no different than interjecting months; they called it month 13 you call it ?no name or skip full moon? start at the beginning right away need to skip a month then skipping every 2 or 3 years which the full moon will vary in color from big/orange if a day after solstice to ordinary white 29 days after the solstice?

ramadan 0 0
2___ 29.53059
3___ 59.06118
4___ 88.59177
5___ 118.12236
6___ 147.65295
7___ 177.18354
8___ 206.71413
9___ 236.24472
10__ 265.77531
11__ 295.3059
12__ 324.83649
skip full moon 354.36708 365.242199 summer solstice
ramadan 383.89767
2___ 413.42826
3___ 442.95885
4___ 472.48944
5___ 502.02003
6___ 531.55062
7___ 561.08121
8___ 590.6118
9___ 620.14239
10__ 649.67298
11__ 679.20357
12__ 708.73416 730.484398
ramadan 738.26475
2___ 767.79534
3___ 797.32593
4___ 826.85652
5___ 856.38711
6___ 885.9177
7___ 915.44829
8___ 944.97888
9___ 974.50947
10__ 1004.04006
11__ 1033.57065
12__ 1063.10124
skip full moon 1092.63183 1095.726597
ramadan 1122.16242 ORDINARY FULL MOON 27 days after summer solstice
2___ 1151.69301
3___ 1181.2236
4___ 1210.75419
5___ 1240.28478
6___ 1269.81537
7___ 1299.34596
8___ 1328.87655
9___ 1358.40714
10__ 1387.93773
11__ 1417.46832
12__ 1446.99891 1460.968796
ramadan 1476.5295
2___ 1506.06009
3___ 1535.59068
4___ 1565.12127
5___ 1594.65186
6___ 1624.18245
7___ 1653.71304
8___ 1683.24363
9___ 1712.77422
10__ 1742.30481
11__ 1771.8354
12__ 1801.36599 1826.210995
ramadan 1830.89658
2___ 1860.42717
3___ 1889.95776
4___ 1919.48835
5___ 1949.01894
6___ 1978.54953
7___ 2008.08012
8___ 2037.61071
9___ 2067.1413
10__ 2096.67189
11__ 2126.20248
12__ 2155.73307
skip full moon 2185.26366 2191.453194
ramadan 2214.79425
2___ 2244.32484
3___ 2273.85543
4___ 2303.38602
5___ 2332.91661
6___ 2362.4472
7___ 2391.97779
8___ 2421.50838
9___ 2451.03897
10__ 2480.56956
11__ 2510.10015
12__ 2539.63074 2556.695393
ramadan 2569.16133
2___ 2598.69192
3___ 2628.22251
4___ 2657.7531
5___ 2687.28369
6___ 2716.81428
7___ 2746.34487
8___ 2775.87546
9___ 2805.40605
10__ 2834.93664
11__ 2864.46723
12__ 2893.99782 2921.937592
ramadan 2923.52841
2___ 2953.059
3___ 2982.58959
4___ 3012.12018
5___ 3041.65077
6___ 3071.18136
7___ 3100.71195
8___ 3130.24254
9___ 3159.77313
10__ 3189.30372
11__ 3218.83431
12__ 3248.3649
skip full moon 3277.89549 3287.179791
ramadan 3307.42608
2___ 3336.95667
3___ 3366.48726
4___ 3396.01785
5___ 3425.54844
6___ 3455.07903
7___ 3484.60962
8___ 3514.14021
9___ 3543.6708
10__ 3573.20139
11__ 3602.73198
12__ 3632.26257 3652.42199
ramadan 3661.79316
2___ 3691.32375
3___ 3720.85434
4___ 3750.38493
5___ 3779.91552
6___ 3809.44611
7___ 3838.9767
8___ 3868.50729
9___ 3898.03788
10__ 3927.56847
11__ 3957.09906
12__ 3986.62965
skip full moon 4016.16024 4017.664189
ramadan 4045.69083 ORDINARY FULL MOON 28 days after solstice

Peace

vivek

Peace Ayman,

For years I was thinking about what would have been the basis for the new Islamic calendar and the Islamic era based on this calendar. As a result of this thought, I was really doubting the sanctity of the Islamic calendar as believed by the so-called muslims. I read your article some two or three months back and found it really eye-opening and shedding light on what would have been the abstention mentioned in the Quran. But I have yet to study your article in depth before arriving at a conclusion. I appreciate your efforts and sincerety to find the true Islam again. I'm learning many things from your articles. Thank you. Please continue your service in the cause of God by disseminating religious knowledge. All of us are only humans and are prone to making mistakes. If you come to know some or many mistakes in your understanding of the Quranic truths in a later stage, you should always be ready to accept and correct them.

May God guide us all to the right path.

Yours truly,

K.Vivekanandan

ayman

Peace Guest,

Why would I change the order of the months that Prophet Muhammad used? The order of the months was established firmly by the Prophet during his stay with was (previous generation) which we still follow.

This is pure fantasy so that you can follow your forefathers blindly without using whatever brain you still have. Bring your proof from the great reading like I did.

You are making a false accusation that Umar changed the order of the months without any valid evidence. Umar is the one who fought with the Prophet and not you. My innermost thoughts tell me that he didn?t abandon the Islam religion like you suggest using the example ?he changed the order of months?.

I don't care about the hero worship fetish that you have for Umar. Bring your proof from the great reading like I did.

Judging your logic from the contents of your posts, I would most certainly conclude it is you who we should be careful about. Suggesting such a drastic change during the time in question would be equivalent to asking for extreme punishment. Even a sane disbeliever wouldn?t dare do that.

It is not my suggestion. It is an indisputable fact that the order of the months has no basis in the great reading and is 100% arbitrary and therefore has NOTHING to do with the god's system. What makes you think that Ramadhan is the 9th month? Why not the 8th or 7th or 1st month? Your system is 100% arbitrary and manmade.

Quote ?.. new year today and you conjecture that Ramadhan is the 9th month in your calendar then your Ramadhan will be 9 lunar months from today?

You think people are that dumb.

No just you. Here is a simple example for slow people like you

New moon 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 - 9 -10 - 11 - 12
New moon .... 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 - 9 - 10 - 11 - 12
New moon ......... 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 - 9 - 10 - 11 - 12

If you, Umar or whoever started the lunar calendar with the next new moon then your 9th month will be 9 months from now. If you, Umar or whoever started the lunar calendar with the following new moon then your 9th month will be their 8th month. So while you are fasting in their Ramadhan, they will still be in Shaaban, and so on... The fact is that your Ramadhan is 100% dependent on your, Umar or whoever human decided the arbitrary start of the calendar.

The same thing goes for other arbitrary manmade decisions such as the your special "Holy" day of the week

S - M - T - W - T - F - S
.... S - M - T - W - T - F - S
......... S - M - T - W - T - F - S

When Friday, Saturday or Sunday occur depends 100% on an arbitrary manmade decision of when to start the present 7 day week. If the start was delayed by one day then your Friday would have been what is now Saturday.

What kind of mind and education do you have?

Everything that I am saying is indisputable and doesn't require much brains to understand. It is only disputed by brain dead sectarians such as you.

I think it is something you would do though. If I am starting a new calendar from next new moon, I will call my first month Ramadan and by default it will become my new year.

See the example above. Someone else who decided to start their new calendar where Ramadan is month 1 from the new moon after next would have Shaaban while you are having your Ramadan. Your and their Ramadan is 100% dependent on an arbitrary manmade decision.

Another extreme situation is this If a powerful disbelieving system takes over and change the calendar and order of the months, I will re-synch the new months with the known Ramadan month and continue my religious duties. It is easy (Elementary my dear Watson).

How will you re-synch it if it is not known anymore because this powerful disbelieving system took over for a 1000 years and there is no Safar, no Shaaban, none of the names of the months exist anymore? Luckily, a 1000 years from now you are born and you stumble upon an old manuscript of the great reading and believe in it. How can you re-synch things and obey the god's commands correctly?

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Peace Guest,

Quote ?No, I don't get it. Please excuse my ignorance and show us your incredible intelligence by telling us this commone sense and measurement techniques that allows you to know this using 1712.?

First, you give me the length of your solar cycle. This way you will not be able to take different position after the fact. The solar cycle I use is 365.2xxx. Why are you not dividing yours?

In other words, you can't answer.

I already gave you the length. It is the length between solstices. This was true a million years ago when the days in the cycle wasn't 365.2xxx and it will be true 10 million years from now when the days in the cycle is not 365.2xxx anymore. How hard is this to understand?

Quote ?Of course the parts in underline and bold in your translation are contradictory.?
Contradictory, says who? Are you the authority who decides what is right from wrong? You have too big an ego to be thinking that everything you do or say is correct. You must think you are infallible. Your faulty posts prove otherwise.

Everyone can see that the above irrelevant rant is a surrender on your part that you can't address the contradiction.

Quote ?The year is the interval between the longest/shortest day/night and the next longest/shortest day/night. This system is a self-adjusting system that doesn't require any adjustment. I guess I am now a famous person.?

You are not famous yet. It is just a claim now. You have to put it in practice and show that it works. You can start by giving us the number of days between the ?longest/shortest day/night and the next longest/shortest day/night?. These days has to equate to the God given solar cycle.

The number of days don't matter. The number of days between solstices will always be the actual year regardless of any calendar system. This is a self-adjusting natural system that will work even a million years from now when the number of days is not 365.2xxx anymore.

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Peace Ramzi,

lol,

Why? Is the time between longest/shortest day/night not God given?

Indeed, Guest seems to think that I decided when the longest/shortest day/night occur. He is so used to his timing being arbitrary and manmade that he can't tell the difference.

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Peace Eid Abdullah,

Perhaps take difference (lunar - solstice) calculate where we are at currently in the cycle.

It sounds like you don't know what are you talking about. Please give us an example and tell us exactly when your "ramadhan" and your four restricted "shahr" start and end.

The other thing is it may be the same with how to exactly pray; really doesn't matter, start anywhere in the cycle -- not much difference between time slices and what matters is the current moment the only reality.

So you admit that your alternative timing is arbitrary and starts anywhere in the cycle you decide.

This is 100% false based on the fact that acording to the great reading the hunting restrictions are to be enforced and there are specific penalties for violating them. So this can't be left to each individual whims. This is what 936-37 are warning us about arbitrary manmade decisions that result in violating the hunting restrictions.

Until, you come up with a better alternative then this thread still stands as the best understanding available on this matter and until a better one is found, we should all follow it.

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Peace Eid,

Last year 400 A.M. June 18th you missed this big scorching full moon illusion before summer solstice?

This is not the scorching full moon. Scorching means "red and hot". This one is only red but the average temperature after the solstice will always be much higher than before it.

Then try to distinguish between the one?s coming up in a few days...
Aug 3 95% full moon
Aug 4 98%
Aug 5 Full Moon 856 P.M. (better be outside that exact moment to witness it not indoors or asleep)
Aug 6 100%
Aug 7 98%

Yet the reality is that for thousands of years people were able to easily distinguish the full-moon and there was never any disagreement on when it occurs. You really ought to get outside more and observe for yourself and see how easy it is to distinguish the full moon, which is the perfectly symmetric moon (841. Also, as Siki pointed out, the full-moon will appear after sunset not before like the 95% one.

Sure we can; start of Ramadan when you see ?D? ? begin fasting next day at dawn?
Aug 23 14%
Stop fasting when you see ?D? again which occurs a week after you see ?C??
Sept 14 22%
Sept 21 10%

What you are saying has nothing to do with reality as evidenced by the annual dispute between sectarians about when so-called Ramadhan starts and ends.

Moreover, how can you count 12 periods using the time between C and D. Remember that the word "ahilat" means "crescents" in general and not just waxing crescent. You can't use "crescents" to count 12 periods.

Skipping full moons is no different than interjecting months; they called it month 13 you call it ?no name or skip full moon? start at the beginning right away need to skip a month then skipping every 2 or 3 years which the full moon will vary in color from big/orange if a day after solstice to ordinary white 29 days after the solstice?

Nope. The full moon a day after solstice will also be white during the middle of the night after it has risen enough. The key is how long it takes for the moon to rise. The full-moon after the solstice will take much longer to rise and will rise to a lower elevation than the following full-moons and therefore will remain red longer.

Also, if you use the crescent, you will get 24-26 crescents (C and D) in a year NOT 12.

Peace,

Ayman

unknownuser

Peace Ayman,

It sounds like you don't know what are you talking about. Please give us an example and tell us exactly when your "ramadhan" and your four restricted "shahr" start and end.

So you admit that your alternative timing is arbitrary and starts anywhere in the cycle you decide.

Your theory albeit a new look contradicts and for some weird reason you avoid history and ignore/skip whole months which from the chatter in those days no conspiracy ramadan meant a whole lunar month evident from the works of mathematician/scientists like Al-Biruni and others that 12 month lunar calendars where present and traversed the seasons which later a 13th month was injected across many cultures to sync the year -- exactly the same you are doing by skipping.

What I suggested was starting at the beginning as per 936 The count of the months with God is twelve months in the book of God the day He created the heavens and the earth...

For example in 2001 there was a new moon/solar eclipse on the summer solstice and supposedly also aligned with galaxy center which could be the starting point of the cycle and doesn't say exactly so many days/nights or 12 months have to be in one year...

Solstice June 21 New Moon Jun 21 Total eclipse
1___ 29.53059
2___ 59.06118
3___ 88.59177
4___ 118.12236
5___ 147.65295
6___ 177.18354
7___ 206.71413
8___ 236.24472
9___ 265.77531
10__ 295.3059
11__ 324.83649
12__ 354.36708 365.242199 solstice 2002
1___ 383.89767
2___ 413.42826
3___ 442.95885

This is 100% false based on the fact that acording to the great reading the hunting restrictions are to be enforced and there are specific penalties for violating them. So this can't be left to each individual whims. This is what 936-37 are warning us about arbitrary manmade decisions that result in violating the hunting restrictions.

I disagree that was about a global 4 month hunting restriction. Unless they were American Indians on the great plains hunting buffalo, most people on the planet do not depend on hunting for food; they settled in cities thousands of years ago, domesticated animals (varying mating seasons) and grow plants, fished, etc.

Until, you come up with a better alternative then this thread still stands as the best understanding available on this matter and until a better one is found, we should all follow it.

Again, your theory is a form of adding a 13th month and contradicts numerous things including this simple example...

2234 And those who are made to die from you, and they leave wives, they wait with themselves four months, and ten

Please highlight below or indicate the end date of two widows who are each to wait 14 months

husband deceased on summer solstice which occurs also on the full moon ramadan 0
husband deceased on the skipped full moon before the summer solstice

ramadan 0 0 solstice
2___ 29.53059
3___ 59.06118
4___ 88.59177
5___ 118.12236
6___ 147.65295
7___ 177.18354
8___ 206.71413
9___ 236.24472
10__ 265.77531
11__ 295.3059
12__ 324.83649
skip full moon 354.36708 365.242199 summer solstice
ramadan 383.89767
2___ 413.42826
3___ 442.95885
4___ 472.48944
5___ 502.02003
6___ 531.55062
7___ 561.08121
8___ 590.6118
9___ 620.14239
10__ 649.67298
11__ 679.20357
12__ 708.73416 730.484398
ramadan 738.26475
2___ 767.79534
3___ 797.32593
4___ 826.85652
5___ 856.38711
6___ 885.9177
7___ 915.44829
8___ 944.97888
9___ 974.50947
10__ 1004.04006
11__ 1033.57065
12__ 1063.10124
skip full moon 1092.63183 1095.726597 summer solstice
ramadan 1122.16242

Yet the reality is that for thousands of years people were able to easily distinguish the full-moon and there was never any disagreement on when it occurs. You really ought to get outside more and observe for yourself and see how easy it is to distinguish the full moon, which is the perfectly symmetric moon (841. Also, as Siki pointed out, the full-moon will appear after sunset not before like the 95% one.

Right, easy since you know what it is before going outside...lol Try guessing these without clicking...

http//www.flickr.com/photos/kajo55/sets/72157600174342578/

People across cultures used new moon as start of calendars; never heard of full moon as start-end until now.

Also, if you use the crescent, you will get 24-26 crescents (C and D) in a year NOT 12.

Not counting "C" only stating the obvious; it'll be there a week before the "D" or start/end of the cycle.

http//www.ngc7000.org/cam/moon-20050410.jpg

Btw, I went outside; moon looks full bright-white with blueish circle round it and 3 days away from 100% full.

Peace

guest

Peace Ayman,

I said Why would I change the order of the months that Prophet Muhammad used? The order of the months was established firmly by the Prophet during his stay with was (previous generation) which we still follow.

Ayman?s response ?This is pure fantasy so that you can follow your forefathers blindly without using whatever brain you still have. Bring your proof from the great reading like I did?

My rebuttal Ayman you don?t even know what you are talking about. Your response is wrong, illogical, inconsistence, and out of line. Seriously, you need help.

The month of Ramadan is tied to the night of destiny. Therefore, it is NOT arbitrary. This proof (the knowledge) was given to you in the previous post but you wouldn?t accept it.

7175 - Recite for them the news of one who was given our proofs, but chose to disregard them. Consequently, the devil pursued him, until he became a strayer.

As for the claim ?Bring your proof from the great reading like I did?, you did not bring any proof from the Quran, you have twisted the God?s word according to a satanic dictionary and put forward an absurd timing system that exhibits full of error when implemented by well educated humans. Further, you provide no details about this timing system because you don?t even know what you are talking about. You approach validates the phrase ?little learning is dangerous?.

1712 does not talk about summer solstice. It talks about using the sun for timing such as the dawn, midday, sunset etc. which is used for performing salat. You are in violation of the God?s law and here is a verse I quote for you, perchance you may take heed.

7176 - Had we willed, we could have elevated him therewith, but he insisted on sticking to the ground, and pursued his own opinions. Thus, he is like the dog; whether you pet him or scold him, he pants. Such is the example of people who reject our proofs. Narrate these narrations, that they may reflect.

I said You are making a false accusation that Umar changed the order of the months without any valid evidence. Umar is the one who fought with the Prophet and not you. My innermost thoughts tell me that he didn?t abandon the Islam religion like you suggest using the example ?he changed the order of months?.

Ayman?s response ?I don't care about the hero worship fetish that you have for Umar. Bring your proof from the great reading like I did.?

My rebuttal It is not about hero worship rather it is about giving proper credit to people who had done good deeds. It is also about improper slander without evidence.

You don?t give a hoot about these value, you only care about your own ego.

817 - It was not you who killed them; GOD is the One who killed them. It was not you who threw when you threw; GOD is the One who threw. But He thus gives the believers a chance to earn a lot of credit. GOD is Hearer, Omniscient.

Only the good person acknowledges good deed. Only the bad person slander good people. And you find no wrong in it.

2411 - A gang among you produced a big lie. Do not think that it was bad for you; instead, it was good for you. Meanwhile, each one of them has earned his share of the guilt. As for the one who initiated the whole incident, he has incurred a terrible retribution.

2412 - When you heard it, the believing men and the believing women should have had better thoughts about themselves, and should have said, "This is obviously a big lie."

2413 - Only if they produced four witnesses (you may believe them). If they fail to produce the witnesses, then they are, according to GOD, liars.

Quote ?What makes you think that Ramadhan is the 9th month? Why not the 8th or 7th or 1st month? Your system is 100% arbitrary and manmade.?

The night of Destiny is my God given proof. I follow the God?s system.

On the otherhand, your system is completely arbitrary.

I said You think people are that dumb.

Ayman?s Response ?No just you. Here is a simple example for slow people like you

New moon 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 - 9 -10 - 11 - 12
New moon .... 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 - 9 - 10 - 11 - 12
New moon ......... 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 - 9 - 10 - 11 ? 12

My rebuttal You don?t even understand the meaning of resetting a count associate with the calendar. The God has sealed your heart. Therefore, you will not understand it. You are totally unaware.

7179 - We have committed to Hell multitudes of jinns and humans. They have minds with which they do not understand, eyes with which they do not see, and ears with which they do not hear. They are like animals; no, they are far worse - they are totally unaware.

Here is what my calendar looks like. I kept your above notation to make the matter simple for you.

New moon 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 - 9 - 10 - 11 ? 12 - year 1
New moon 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 - 9 - 10 ? 11 ? 12 - year 2
New moon 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 - 9 - 10 - 11 ? 12 - year 3

Another representation would be

1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11?12; 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11?12; and so on

If I want to initiate a new count of years from next new moon (assume 9th moon above), my calendar would look like this

9 ? 10 ? 11 ? 12 ? 1 ? 2 ? 3 ? 4 ? 5 ? 6 ? 7 ? 8 Year 1

The month corresponding to the numbers remains the same. Therefore, I will perform Ramadan in the first month (#9) and do whatever I need to do in following month. And this simple fact is very difficult for you to comprehend.

Quote ?Everything that I am saying is indisputable and doesn't require much brains to understand. It is only disputed by brain dead sectarians such as you.?

Indisputable to you and not to people who believe in one God and do good deeds.

Quote ?How will you re-synch it if it is not known anymore because this powerful disbelieving system took over for a 1000 years and there is no Safar, no Shaaban, none of the names of the months exist anymore? Luckily, a 1000 years from now you are born and you stumble upon an old manuscript of the great reading and believe in it. How can you re-synch things and obey the god's commands correctly??

The God will raise a messenger to correct the situation, or we will follow the example of Abraham, or we will opt for feeding poor people as it is difficult to determine the month of Ramadan, etc.

In reality such situation will never happen in the future. We will always find some people still practicing the original timing system in the underground or in a favorable neighboring country. The salat and the timing system will remain intact until the J-day, God willing.

We find the Muslim of the world is united in performing Ramadan with the new moon. Even though, some may start fasting a day earlier than the others. We have no evidence of deviation from this practice.

ayman

Peace Guest,

I asked you to bring proof from the great reading but instead of taking this opportunity you continue to make useless noise and parade your ignorance and your inability to read on this forum. Your only attempt at 1712 shows that you are deaf and blind. The god tells you "the number of years" and you hear "dawn, midday, sunset".

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Peace Everyone,

Quote ?How will you re-synch it if it is not known anymore because this powerful disbelieving system took over for a 1000 years and there is no Safar, no Shaaban, none of the names of the months exist anymore? Luckily, a 1000 years from now you are born and you stumble upon an old manuscript of the great reading and believe in it. How can you re-synch things and obey the god's commands correctly??

The God will raise a messenger to correct the situation, or we will follow the example of Abraham, or we will opt for feeding poor people as it is difficult to determine the month of Ramadan, etc.

Guest himself gave the example of the powerful disbelieving system and now he is forced to admit to the fact that his arbitrary manmade system has ZERO basis in the great reading and therefore can't be reached using the great reading. Enough said.

Peace,

Ayman