Hot/"ramadan" Answer
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Peace Everyone,
Quote ?How will you re-synch it if it is not known anymore because this powerful disbelieving system took over for a 1000 years and there is no Safar, no Shaaban, none of the names of the months exist anymore? Luckily, a 1000 years from now you are born and you stumble upon an old manuscript of the great reading and believe in it. How can you re-synch things and obey the god's commands correctly??
The God will raise a messenger to correct the situation, or we will follow the example of Abraham, or we will opt for feeding poor people as it is difficult to determine the month of Ramadan, etc.
Guest himself gave the example of the powerful disbelieving system and now he is forced to admit to the fact that his arbitrary manmade system has ZERO basis in the great reading and therefore can't be reached using the great reading. Enough said.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Vivek,
For years I was thinking about what would have been the basis for the new Islamic calendar and the Islamic era based on this calendar. As a result of this thought, I was really doubting the sanctity of the Islamic calendar as believed by the so-called muslims. I read your article some two or three months back and found it really eye-opening and shedding light on what would have been the abstention mentioned in the Quran. But I have yet to study your article in depth before arriving at a conclusion. I appreciate your efforts and sincerety to find the true Islam again. I'm learning many things from your articles. Thank you. Please continue your service in the cause of God by disseminating religious knowledge. All of us are only humans and are prone to making mistakes. If you come to know some or many mistakes in your understanding of the Quranic truths in a later stage, you should always be ready to accept and correct them.
Thank you for your kind words. All good is due to the god. Many people contributed to this thread and this effort in understanding the timing issue. Even people like Guest with their idiotic nonsense and who suffer from hero worship disease have inadvertently helped solidify this understanding. For those who can see it, truth shines clearly in contrast to falsehood. Thank you everyone, including people like Guest, for making this thread the best and most comprehensive resource anywhere on the issue of the timing.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Eid,
Your theory albeit a new look contradicts and for some weird reason you avoid history and ignore/skip whole months which from the chatter in those days no conspiracy ramadan meant a whole lunar month evident from the works of mathematician/scientists like Al-Biruni and others that 12 month lunar calendars where present and traversed the seasons which later a 13th month was injected across many cultures to sync the year -- exactly the same you are doing by skipping.
If you are going to critique something then the first step is to understand it properly. My theory (as you call it) has no such thing as "months" and is not concerned with calendars. Once you get beyond that block then you would be able to see more clearly.
What I suggested was starting at the beginning as per 936 The count of the months with God is twelve months in the book of God the day He created the heavens and the earth...
For example in 2001 there was a new moon/solar eclipse on the summer solstice and supposedly also aligned with galaxy center which could be the starting point of the cycle and doesn't say exactly so many days/nights or 12 months have to be in one year...
You are making things too complicated for yourself. The god simply tells us in 1712 to use the day and night to know the number of years. No need for conjecture about eclipses or things to supposedly align with the galaxy center. The ONLY way to use the day and night to know the number of years is if we take the year as the interval between longest/shortest day/night, in other words the interval between solstices. THERE IS SIMPLY NO OTHER WAY TO APPLY 1712 PERIOD.
Solstice June 21 New Moon Jun 21 Total eclipse
1___ 29.53059
2___ 59.06118
3___ 88.59177
4___ 118.12236
5___ 147.65295
6___ 177.18354
7___ 206.71413
8___ 236.24472
9___ 265.77531
10__ 295.3059
11__ 324.83649
12__ 354.36708 365.242199 solstice 2002This is false. You have 13 and not 12 new moons. You skipped counting the first one.
1___ 383.89767
2___ 413.42826
3___ 442.95885We both know why you stopped here and didn't continue. If you continued, you would get years with 13 new moons between solstices about every 2-3 years. So whatever objection you had for skipping to count "shahr" you haven't applied to yourself and were forced to use the same method of counting ONLY and ALWAYS 12 as per 936 and skip counting the 13th one.
Moreover, your decision to use the new moon has nothing to do with the great reading. The term "new moon" or "waxing crescent" is never used in the great reading. On the other hand, "full moon" is one of the meanings of "shahr".
I disagree that was about a global 4 month hunting restriction. Unless they were American Indians on the great plains hunting buffalo, most people on the planet do not depend on hunting for food; they settled in cities thousands of years ago, domesticated animals (varying mating seasons) and grow plants, fished, etc.
If what you are saying is true then why do all civilized societies have hunting restrictions in the summer and hunting is resumed in the fall? This is reality.
Also, 51-2, 594-96 make it clear that indeed hunting is relevant to the message.
Again, your theory is a form of adding a 13th month and contradicts numerous things including this simple example...
You are attacking a different theory. You need to differentiate between arbitrary months and god-given natural cosmic phenomena. I have nothing to do with adding months or any calendar. I simply count EXACTLY 12 full moons EVERY YEAR, as commanded in 936. If obeying the command in 936 results in not counting the occasional 13th full moon then be it.
2234 And those who are made to die from you, and they leave wives, they wait with themselves four months, and ten
Please highlight below or indicate the end date of two widows who are each to wait 14 months- husband deceased on summer solstice which occurs also on the full moon ramadan 0
- husband deceased on the skipped full moon before the summer solstice
ramadan 0 0 solstice
2___ 29.53059
3___ 59.06118
4___ 88.59177
5___ 118.12236
6___ 147.65295
7___ 177.18354
8___ 206.71413
9___ 236.24472
10__ 265.77531
11__ 295.3059
12__ 324.83649
skip full moon 354.36708 365.242199 summer solstice
ramadan 383.89767
2___ 413.42826
3___ 442.95885
4___ 472.48944
5___ 502.02003
6___ 531.55062
7___ 561.08121
8___ 590.6118
9___ 620.14239
10__ 649.67298
11__ 679.20357
12__ 708.73416 730.484398
ramadan 738.26475
2___ 767.79534
3___ 797.32593
4___ 826.85652
5___ 856.38711
6___ 885.9177
7___ 915.44829
8___ 944.97888
9___ 974.50947
10__ 1004.04006
11__ 1033.57065
12__ 1063.10124
skip full moon 1092.63183 1095.726597 summer solstice
ramadan 1122.16242936-37 clearly tell us that the count of full-moons is 12 out of which 4 are restricted. This has to do with not violating the god's restriction on hunting and the timing for the feast/"hagg". This has nothing to do with counting the waiting period, which is counting the event of the full-moon just like menstruations are events. So when you are counting four full moons and ten nights, you don't skip any full-moons.
Right, easy since you know what it is before going outside...lol Try guessing these without clicking...
http//www.flickr.com/photos/kajo55/sets/72157600174342578/I am not the type of guy who is glued to the net all day. You need to get some fresh air and get out more and try to see the full-moon and the new moon for yourself. I bet that you NEVER witnessed the new moon while you witnessed the full-moon countless times.
Also, there has NEVER been any dispute on when the full-moon occurs. On the other hand, almost EVERY SINGLE year there is a huge dispute on when the new moon occurs.
People across cultures used new moon as start of calendars; never heard of full moon as start-end until now.
Your problem is that you are still stuck on manmade calendars. Until you get beyond this mental block, you will not see. It is a fact that all cultures timed EVENTS (not calendars) according to the full moon. Therefore all cultures have the HARVEST MOON, the HUNTER MOON, etc. When it came to these practical purposes such as hunting restrictions and harvest feasts ALL THESE ARE FULL MOONS and NOT NEW MOONS.
Not counting "C" only stating the obvious; it'll be there a week before the "D" or start/end of the cycle.
http//www.ngc7000.org/cam/moon-20050410.jpgBut then while the word "ahilat" (crescents in general) is mentioned in the great reading, the word "new moon"/"waxing crescent" is NEVER mentioned. If one takes "shahr" to mean crescents then you have 24-26 crescents in a solar year or you have to invent your own imaginary meaning for the word "shahr".
Btw, I went outside; moon looks full bright-white with blueish circle round it and 3 days away from 100% full.
Good. This moon appeared before the sun sets and is not fully symmetric. Keep looking and you will see the actual full moon appear symmetric and AFTER sunset. On the other hand, you will NEVER see the new moon.
Peace,
Ayman
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Blah,blah,blah,
Ramadan has been made well known by Allah. hypno -
Peace Ayman,
If you are going to critique something then the first step is to understand it properly. My theory (as you call it) has no such thing as "months" and is not concerned with calendars. Once you get beyond that block then you would be able to see more clearly.
I understand your point in time 12 snapshot theory well.
THERE IS SIMPLY NO OTHER WAY TO APPLY 1712 PERIOD.
1712 ?and to know the years' number, and the counting/calculating?
This is false. You have 13 and not 12 new moons. You skipped counting the first one.
This is where I disagree with your definition, shahr is not as snapshot; shahr is a time length = 29.53059 days.
We both know why you stopped here and didn't continue. If you continued, you would get years with 13 new moons between solstices about every 2-3 years. So whatever objection you had for skipping to count "shahr" you haven't applied to yourself and were forced to use the same method of counting ONLY and ALWAYS 12 as per 936 and skip counting the 13th one.
Again, with single point in time (i.e. full moon); your fast will end as soon as it starts.
2185? so who witnessed from you the month (alshshahra), so he should fast it?
If what you are saying is true then why do all civilized societies have hunting restrictions in the summer and hunting is resumed in the fall? This is reality.
Which animals, what countries, show the data.
Also, 51-2, 594-96 make it clear that indeed hunting is relevant to the message.
Yes, in context the Kaaba, the caravan/people moving, after completing Ihram you may hunt...
596 Permitted for you is the sea's hunting/fishing, and its food, enjoyment to you and to the caravan/people often moving, and forbidden on you the land's hunting?
It's clear that is a local ban not to deplete the resources of the gathering place.
I simply count EXACTLY 12 full moons EVERY YEAR, as commanded in 936. If obeying the command in 936 results in not counting the occasional 13th full moon then be it.
Nice way to explain a contradiction. It's there simply ignore it. lol
Where does it say 12 full moons EVERY YEAR?
Not counting same the nineteen infatuated not counting chapter titles.
936-37 clearly tell us that the count of full-moons is 12 out of which 4 are restricted. This has to do with not violating the god's restriction on hunting and the timing for the feast/"hagg". This has nothing to do with counting the waiting period, which is counting the event of the full-moon just like menstruations are events. So when you are counting four full moons and ten nights, you don't skip any full-moons.
Where you get 10 nights?
2234 ?four ashhurin and ten
14 ashhurin, which you count full moons then do not count/skip full moon.
I am not the type of guy who is glued to the net all day. You need to get some fresh air and get out more and try to see the full-moon and the new moon for yourself. I bet that you NEVER witnessed the new moon while you witnessed the full-moon countless times.
Me me, all about me, OK enough about me, tell me what you think -- about me. lol
Also, there has NEVER been any dispute on when the full-moon occurs. On the other hand, almost EVERY SINGLE year there is a huge dispute on when the new moon occurs.
There was NEVER a dispute on HALF MOON either, why would there be.
Your problem is that you are still stuck on manmade calendars. Until you get beyond this mental block, you will not see. It is a fact that all cultures timed EVENTS (not calendars) according to the full moon. Therefore all cultures have the HARVEST MOON, the HUNTER MOON, etc. When it came to these practical purposes such as hunting restrictions and harvest feasts ALL THESE ARE FULL MOONS and NOT NEW MOONS.
Your calendar is 100% Ayman made.
Don't get excited over full-moon names, it was light outside that's all.Good. This moon appeared before the sun sets and is not fully symmetric. Keep looking and you will see the actual full moon appear symmetric and AFTER sunset. On the other hand, you will NEVER see the new moon.
It was 9pm last night and it looked like an ordinary full moon same as it did tonight at 930pm I came back from hitting full moon looking golf balls under bright white full moon light at the driving range packed with people; go outside look at the moon...
TODAY Aug 3 Moon Phase 95%
TUE Aug 4 Moon Phase 98%
WED Aug 5 Moon Phase Full Moon 856 P.M. (better not be cloudy else your fast is void)
THUR Aug 6 Moon Phase 100%
FRI Aug 7 Moon Phase 98%
Peace
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Peace Ayman,
Quote from Ayman (Reply #986 on Today at 034904 PM) "This is not the scorching full moon. Scorching means "red and hot". This one is only red but the average temperature after the solstice will always be much higher than before it."
This is very interesting.
All full moons are red hot. The average temperature of the moon is about 107 degree Celsius when it is receiving sunlight. Yes, you can boil water and make a cup of tea without having to light a fire. In fact the full moon after solstice in northern hemisphere is farthest away from the sun. Hence, it should be less hot than the other full moons.
You can?t just provide superficial (phony) argument like ??the average temperature after the solstice will always be much higher than before it." Provide your proof. Need evidence.
Are we supposed to fast every full moon throughout the year (12 moons)? Because they are hotter than the one you mentioned.
Is your story now going to be the moon has to look big even though the size of the moon does not change or the color has to be red/orange even though it is caused by the Earth atmospheric conditions.
What does your dictionary say now?
We should be getting more data on the moon surface condition soon which will further nullify you crazy theory.
The moon does not have any seasons because it does not have tilt like the Earth. So you cannot claim season to justify you absurd theory.
Oh, don?t forget to look at the moon today, tomorrow, and day after tomorrow. Lets see how many full moons we see in these three days.
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Peace Ayman,
I looked at the moon last night (August 4, 2009) at around 900 PM. I saw a clear and bright full-moon with my naked eyes. My perception was validated by lady who was walking by me. She told me that it was a full moon and that she was looking at it prior to my asking.
Then again at around 1000 PM at a different location, I asked two young fellows (about 19 years old and no eye glasses) about the moon. They said it was definitely a full moon. They were unaware of the experiment I was conducting.
Following are moon data from U.S. Naval Observatory, Astronomical Applications Department
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Phase of the Moon on 4 August waxing gibbous with 98% of the Moon's visible disk illuminated
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Full Moon on 5 August 2009 at 855 p.m. Eastern Daylight Time
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Phase of the Moon on 6 August waning gibbous with 100% of the Moon's visible disk illuminated
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Phase of the Moon on 7 August waning gibbous with 98% of the Moon's visible disk illuminated
The moon of August 4, 2009 and moon of August 7, 2009 will look the same per above data (98%). And if people are saying August 4th moon a full-moon then they will also say that August 7 moon a full-moon. Therefore, a full-moon based timing system (Ayman?s System) can produce an error of 3 days. Plus you will have horrendous time defining criteria for pinpointing full-moon. Your system is path to hell. If you insist on your system then you are trying to create confusion and divisions among the believers. And you know very well that you will not be able to fool the believers as they will shun your system and you. I recommend that you recant the article, repent and reform. Otherwise you would have demonstrated a behavior that is bad to the bone. And the God does not like this at all. For your own good, please return to the Lord of the universe. He is the most forgiving.
4113 - If it were not for GOD's grace towards you, and His mercy, some of them would have misled you. They only mislead themselves, and they can never harm you in the least. GOD has sent down to you the scripture and wisdom, and He has taught you what you never knew. Indeed, GOD's blessings upon you have been great.
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Dear brother guest,
Instead of cursing ayman , or asking people's opinion, carry out a simple exercise,
1-Watch sun set.
2- after sun sets,
3-watch for the moon,
4- if you find moon above horizon and it looks like a full moon,
5- ignore it, that is not the shahar,
6-Do this again next day,
7- If you find fullish kinda moon above horizon , ignore it, and keep repeating this each day,till one day you find No Moon at sun set.
8-Now start looking for the moon, which is expected to rise soon.
9-Let me assure you , that soon you will find a full huge moon rising from the opposite horizon, This would take place "a few seconds after sun set" , or would "extend to more than an hour", depends where are you on the globe , and it also depends upon time of the year (Around summer solstice, time duration will be short, and during winters it will be comparatively much longer)This is the moon which can be termed as a shahar.
It is a celestial impossibility for a moon which rises before sun set, to have better percentage visibility than the first moon which rises after sun set, "At the instant of moon rise"
peace
siki
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Peace siki,
Quote ?Let me assure you , that soon you will find a full huge moon rising from the opposite horizon, This would take place "a few seconds after sun set"?
The huge full-moon you are referring to occurs when lunar perigee and the full-moon coincide. This does not happen every year after summer solstice. The last time it happened in the northern hemisphere was on July 21, 2005. And the next time it will happen is on August 10, 2014. In between the full-moon looks about the same.
If you are looking for scorching full-moon, you will find it in January time-frame because that is when the earth (moon as well) is closest to the sun. Even though you will feel cold in the northern hemisphere the moon will be a real hot one.
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Peace Siki, Ayman, everyone,
The criterion given by Siki to determine the usual or so-called full-moon is not entirely accurate (the reason I am calling it usual or so-called will become obvious later). For practical purposes, a usual full-moon can be very easily figured out by determining which moon stays in the sky the longest during night. That can be only one moon out of the whole moon cycle during only one night and thus CAN NEVER NEVER NEVER be confused unlike what some ignorant people here are trying to make others believe. They don't do their homework per 1736 and come up with misleading information to confuse others. This is a deliberate deception on their part because even a high school student can discover the facts with sincere research.
It is extremely easy to determine the usual full-moon for practical purposes. Just wait until the moon gets near the full phase and then measure the time from the moon rise until the moon set and the night with the longest time between moon rise and moon set will automatically be the night of the usual or so-called full-moon.
Now coming to "ramadhan"/scorching, obviously the word is used in the great reading relevant to an observer on earth rather than on the moon so it refers to the temperature on earth and not the moon surface temperature.
Therefore, determining "shahr ramadhan" is EXTREMELY EASY WITHOUT ANY CONFUSION WHATSOEVER. Look for the first almost full-moon after the summer solstice which will be the moon which stays in the sky the longest during night, which can be only one moon out of the entire moon cycle during only one night WITHOUT ANY CONFUSION.
http//odyssey.bowdoin.edu/~dfrancis/askanerd/moon/
While conducting this research, I think I have finally unlocked the mystery of "shahr" as used in the great reading and have finally determined its exact meaning as follows yay
In the technical sense, the actual EXACTLY FULL MOON occurs only when the moon, the earth and the sun are exactly lined up at 180 degrees with the earth exactly in between the moon and the sun. Therefore, at that time the moon will be in the earth's shadow and there will be a lunar eclipse. So it is impossible to "see" the EXACT FULL MOON which occurs every few months, because it will be completely in the earth's shadow and there will be a total lunar eclipse !!!!! As soon as the moon comes out of the eclipse it will not be the full-moon anymore but will be almost full-moon. Therefore the moon is TECHNICALLY NEVER FULL !!!!! The so-called full moon which occurs every lunar cycle is not actually EXACTLY FULL MOON. That is why I propose that "shahr" in the great reading does not refer to FULL MOON but the moon CLOSEST TO FULL or ALMOST FULL MOON which coincides with the classical Arabic dictionary meaning, and this CLOSEST TO FULL MOON can be determined by the method outlined above WITHOUT ANY CONFUSION WHATSOEVER.
http//www.space.com/spacewatch/moon_fallacies_040227_A1.html
Therefore, "shahr" as used in the great reading would be the ALMOST FULL MOON which occurs once every moon cycle and which is the moon that stays in the sky the longest during night. No wonder it is "shahr" and not "badr" in those places where "shahr" is used in the great reading. Razor sharp precise terminology by the god which increases my faith even more.
yay yay yay
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Peace truthseeker11,
You say ?Now coming to "ramadhan"/scorching, of course the word was used in the great reading relevant to an observer on earth rather than on the moon so it refers to the temperature on earth and not the moon surface temperature.?
If this is true then you are talking about ?red and hot? Earth. Please refer to Ayman?s definition below. Please explain to us what a ?red & hot? Earth is? You must be living in Mars. Are you a alien from Mars?
Please preach your theory on planet Mars.
Quote from Ayman (Reply #986 on Today at 034904 PM) "This is not the scorching full moon. Scorching means "red and hot". This one is only red but the average temperature after the solstice will always be much higher than before it."
You say ?In the technical sense, the actual EXACTLY FULL MOON occurs only when the moon, the earth and the sun are exactly lined up at 180 degrees with the earth exactly in between the moon and the sun. Therefore, at that time the moon will be in the earth's shadow and there will be a lunar eclipse. So it is impossible to "see" the EXACT FULL MOON which occurs every few years.?
I am speechless. I guess you didn?t know that the lunar orbit is tilted five degree. This is why we see full-moon every month. I really don?t know what to say, except that you should get some basic astronomy education before you write again. You are not helping Ayman very much.
You say ?It is extremely easy to determine the usual full-moon for practical purposes. Just wait until the moon gets near the full phase and then measure the time from the moon rise until the moon set and the night with the longest time between moon rise and moon set will automatically be the night of the full-moon.?
Now, you are asking us to measure full-moon from its rise to set. It is indeed a very hard job. Even if we do as you suggest, the measured time for each one of us will be different because we are not synchronously measuring the rise and set time. To do that we will need one time base. Are you going to synch our clock? How? How will you resolve these idiosyncrasies? Mr. truthseeker11, you are trying to give us new religious law in violation of the Quran.
Please stop this nonsense.
There are so much errors/mistakes in your thoughts that it is not even funny anymore.
Whether hotness is referred to earth or the full-moon, the theory is in the toilet.
The simplest and easiest thing to do is look for the new moon in the month of Ramadan and start the fast. The criterion is very simple, either you see the moon or not. On or off. This is the God given law.
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Peace everyone,
It is UNBELIEVABLE how ignorant some people are which makes me think that most likely they make a deliberate attempt to mislead others rather than being ignorant.
Of course the orbital plane of the moon around the earth is tilted 5 % relative to the orbital plane of the earth around the sun but it is amazing how some people cannot grasp the simple fact that even then the moon, the earth, and the sun can be aligned at 180 degrees. In fact it happens every 173 days as I am going to illustrate. Even a high school student can grasp such a simple fact.
"Here the ecliptic plane is represented by the translucent green and blue checkerboard, with the Sun in the centre, and the Earth moving in its orbit within the ecliptic; the Earth's orbit is shown in blue. The plane of the Moon's orbit is shown as the tilted red and yellow checkerboard (in reality, it's only tilted by about 5 degrees), with the Earth being the blue and white ball in its centre. The Moon is shown in white, and its orbit is shown as a white line.
You'll notice two red blobs drawn on the Moon's orbit. These represent the point where the Moon's orbit crosses the ecliptic plane, and are referred to as nodes. Now, an eclipse can only occur when the Moon is in line with the Earth and Sun; but a line from the Earth to the Sun -- drawn here in purple -- lies along the ecliptic. So, an eclipse can only occur when the Moon is in (or near) the ecliptic; and that means that it has to be at, or near, one of the two nodes, and that node has to be positioned in line with the Earth and the Sun.
As the whole Earth-Moon system orbits around the Sun every year, the two nodes will find themselves aligned with the Earth and Sun (one in between, and one "behind" the Earth) twice a year; this means that there are two times each year when we can get an eclipse. Because the node doesn't have to be exactly lined up to cause an eclipse, there is actually a period of 37 days during which an eclipse can occur. These times -- when one of the Moon's nodes is approximately in line between the Earth and Sun, so there is the possibility of an eclipse -- are called eclipse seasons.
As the Moon goes round the Earth, if it passes through either node during an eclipse season, an eclipse will occur; a solar eclipse if the new Moon passes the node between the Earth and Sun, or a lunar eclipse if the Full Moon passes the other node. Furthermore, if the Moon is (more or less) exactly at that node at the middle of the eclipse season, the eclipse will be total (or maybe annular, for a solar eclipse) as seen from some part of the Earth.
This diagram shows the Moon passing through a node, while that node is between the Earth and the Sun; this leads to a total solar eclipse. I've cut out the middle of the Moon's orbital plane so you can see the Moon's shadow falling on the Earth
http//i780.photobucket.com/albums/yy88/truthseeker11/OrbitsEclipse.png
As a matter of fact, the Moon's orbit itself is gradually rotating on its axis, with the effect that the nodes gradually rotate around the Earth. For this reason, an eclipse season happens a little more often than every six months; in fact, every 173 days."
The above is from the following website
http//www.hermit.org/Eclipse/why_cycles.html
I would recommend everyone especially the ignorant to go through this article in detail. The other point about the time that the moon spends in sky during night by the above poster is so dumb that it speaks for itself.
The only correction I will make in my above post is that we have to measure the time that the moon is in the sky from after sunset to before sunrise. The almost full-moon will spend the longest time in the sky during the night (from the time of sunset to sunrise). The moon before the full moon will rise before sunset and will thus spend less time in the sky during night. The moon after the almost full-moon will rise later after the sunset than the almost full-moon and will thus again spend less time in the sky during night. The almost full-moon is the moon that will spend the longest time in the sky during night and WILL BE THE FIRST MOON PHASE TO RISE IMMEDIATELY AFTER SUNSET AS SIKI POINTED OUT.
So Siki was in fact correct. Therefore the ALMOST FULL MOON will have two characteristics
- It is the first moon phase to rise immediately after sunset during the lunar cycle.
- It is the moon phase which will remain in the sky the longest during night.
Therefore it is EXTREMELY EASY to determine the "shahr"/almost full-moon. Just wait until the moon gets near the full phase and then look for the first moon phase that rises immediately after sunrise. This almost full-moon will also stay in the sky the longest during night (between sunset and sunrise). As everyone can see, there will be NO CONFUSION WHATSOEVER. This way even a child can figure out the "shahr".
In addition to the above two points to determine the "shahr"/almost full-moon, there are three additional features of "shahr ramadhan"/almost full-moon of the scorching heat
- It is the almost full-moon which will remain closest to the horizon.
- It is the almost full-moon which will appear bigger and more red than all the other almost full-moons because of point #3
- It will occur immediately after summer solstice.
Please see the following article which explains the moon rise and moon set times for various phases in detail
http//cseligman.com/laboratory/findingmoon.htm
"A Full Moon rises as the Sun goes down, or within half an hour of sunset, is in the South near midnight, and sets in the West within half an hour of sunrise. The fact that the Full Moon rises and sets very close to sunrise and sunset is the easiest way to tell that it is full. A day before and after Full Moon, the Moon looks just as round and full as on the day of Full Moon, but if it is a day before Full Moon, it rises and sets about an hour before the Sun sets and rises, and if it is a day after Full Moon, it rises and sets about an hour after the Sun sets and rises. It is only on the day of Full Moon that its rising and setting times almost exactly match the setting and rising times for the Sun."
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Peace truthseeker11,
You say ?So it is impossible to "see" the EXACT FULL MOON which occurs every few months, because it will be completely in the earth's shadow and there will be a total lunar eclipse !!!!!?
So, now we have full-moon every few months as opposed to every month. This is absurd. I think, somebody needs to go through the weaning phase again.
Then you say ?The criterion given by Siki to determine the usual or so-called full-moon is not entirely accurate?
Then you contradict yourself by saying ?So Siki was in fact correct.?
And you want us to trust you. No sir, you have lost credibility. And no one did that to you but yourself.
You say ?Therefore, "shahr" as used in the great reading would be the ALMOST FULL MOON which occurs once every moon cycle and which is the moon that stays in the sky the longest during night.?
By saying ?ALMOST FULL MOON? you are contradicting with Ayman?s definition ?full moon?. What a slick move on your part to justify an ill conceived theory of Ayman. Here is Ayman definition ?2185. The full moon of scorching heat is when the reading was??
You say ??..but it is amazing how some people cannot grasp the simple fact that even then the moon, the earth, and the sun can be aligned at 180 degrees. In fact it happens every 173 days as I am going to illustrate. Even a high school student can grasp such a simple fact.?
Knowledgeable peoples are fully aware of eclipse and its time of occurrence. However, it is the unknowledgeable person who brings the topic up for discussion when it is not called for. Eclipse is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Looks like someone just failed the kindergarten test.
You say ?The moon before the full moon will rise before sunset and will thus spend less time in the sky during night. The moon after the almost full-moon will rise later after the sunset than the almost full-moon and will thus again spend less time in the sky during night. The almost full-moon is the moon that will spend the longest time in the sky during night and WILL BE THE FIRST MOON PHASE TO RISE IMMEDIATELY AFTER SUNSET AS SIKI POINTED OUT.?
This reminds me of mouse trap that Tom the cat builds to catch the mouse Jerry in ?Tom and Jerry? cartoon show. Enough said.
Here is a simple problem for you to solve. Can you find flaws in Ayman?s quote below?
?Interestingly, the full-moon around the summer solstice is special because it follows a lower path across the sky compared to the rest of the year's full moons and for some reason our brains are wired to perceive such full-moons as larger than normal.?
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Peace Eid,
I understand your point in time 12 snapshot theory well.
Let's hope.
1712 ?and to know the years' number, and the counting/calculating?
This doesn't say anything about how you can know the number of years based on the day and night. As I mentioned my way is the ONLY way. This is indisputable and this is why you can't say anything.
This is where I disagree with your definition, shahr is not as snapshot; shahr is a time length = 29.53059 days.
Then you will never be able to count 12 of your 29.53059 days periods in any year. You are violating 936.
Again, with single point in time (i.e. full moon); your fast will end as soon as it starts.
2185? so who witnessed from you the month (alshshahra), so he should fast it?Your incorrect understanding creates the following insurmountable contradictions
- It creates inequality between 2185, which according to you says that the great reading was descended in 29.53059 days, while 971 clearly says that it was descended in a night.
- It creates inequality between 2184 and 2185 since now according to you the abstinence is for 29.53059 days but 2184 clearly says a few (ma3doodat) days (3-10 max days), unless you invent a new meaning for "ma3doodat" out of thin air.
- It creates redundancy in 2185 since if it was known that it was 29.53059 then "complete the count" is redundant and useless info.
- It violates the clear command in 936 to count only 12 "shahr" because using 29.53059 to mean "shahr" results in counting 12.37 and not 12. The only way that we can possibly count 12 is if "shahr" is not a continuous period but is an integer event. THERE IS SIMPLY NO OTHER WAY.
Which animals, what countries, show the data.
This has been discussed previously in length. Please do your homework before asking.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12409.0
Yes, in context the Kaaba, the caravan/people moving, after completing Ihram you may hunt...
596 Permitted for you is the sea's hunting/fishing, and its food, enjoyment to you and to the caravan/people often moving, and forbidden on you the land's hunting?
It's clear that is a local ban not to deplete the resources of the gathering place.In the context there is absolutely no mention of "hagg". It is clear that you are blindly repeating what sectrians believe.
Nice way to explain a contradiction. It's there simply ignore it. lol
It is your false understanding of "shahr" as 29.53059 that creates a major inconsistency between 2226 and 2228, which clearly show that we are consistently counting events and not a fixed period.
Where does it say 12 full moons EVERY YEAR?
936 clearly tells us that this is a system that is there since the god created the heavens and the earth.
Not counting same the nineteen infatuated not counting chapter titles.
This just shows that you are running out of anything of value to say.
Where you get 10 nights?
2234 ?four ashhurin and ten
14 ashhurin, which you count full moons then do not count/skip full moon.If it is 14 full moons, then you count 14 full-moons. I already explained the purpose of counting of 12 according to 936 and it has nothing to do with spouse waiting period.
Me me, all about me, OK enough about me, tell me what you think -- about me. lol
In other words, you admit that you NEVER SAW THE NEW MOON and that you are merely speaking out of lack of experience.
There was NEVER a dispute on HALF MOON either, why would there be.
Even HALF MOON is a better marker that people will agree about more than the NEW MOON.
Your calendar is 100% Ayman made.
This shows that you still don't understand my theory. I NEVER even proposed a calendar.
Don't get excited over full-moon names, it was light outside that's all.
I am not excited because I knew this all along. You are the one who just learned now about the fact that most cultures used the full-moon to mark events throughout history.
It was 9pm last night and it looked like an ordinary full moon same as it did tonight at 930pm I came back from hitting full moon looking golf balls under bright white full moon light at the driving range packed with people; go outside look at the moon...
TODAY Aug 3 Moon Phase 95%
TUE Aug 4 Moon Phase 98%
WED Aug 5 Moon Phase Full Moon 856 P.M. (better not be cloudy else your fast is void)
THUR Aug 6 Moon Phase 100%
FRI Aug 7 Moon Phase 98%Yet somehow, unlike the new moon, no one ever disagrees on when the full-moon occurs. Maybe it is rocket science to you but it is simple to everyone else.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Ayman,
This doesn't say anything about how you can know the number of years based on the day and night. As I mentioned my way is the ONLY way. This is indisputable and this is why you can't say anything.
Then you will never be able to count 12 of your 29.53059 days periods in any year. You are violating 936.
Your incorrect understanding creates the following insurmountable contradictions
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It creates inequality between 2185, which according to you says that the great reading was descended in 29.53059 days, while 971 clearly says that it was descended in a night.
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It creates inequality between 2184 and 2185 since now according to you the abstinence is for 29.53059 days but 2184 clearly says a few (ma3doodat) days (3-10 max days), unless you invent a new meaning for "ma3doodat" out of thin air.
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It creates redundancy in 2185 since if it was known that it was 29.53059 then "complete the count" is redundant and useless info.
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It violates the clear command in 936 to count only 12 "shahr" because using 29.53059 to mean "shahr" results in counting 12.37 and not 12. The only way that we can possibly count 12 is if "shahr" is not a continuous period but is an integer event. THERE IS SIMPLY NO OTHER WAY.
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Already answered this in another post; yes, started that night, when did these events take place, same night?
3124 When you say to the believers "Is it not sufficient for you that your Lord extends (supplies) you with three thousand from the angels sent descending?"
2532-33 And those who disbelieve say "Why is not the Qur'?n revealed to him all at once?" Thus, that We may strengthen your heart thereby. And We have revealed it to you gradually, in stages. And no example or similitude do they bring, but We reveal to you the truth, and the better explanation thereof.
663 And when the prophet confided to some (of) his wives an information, so when she informed with it and God made it apparent on (to) him, he made some of it known and he opposed from some, so when he informed her with it, she said "Who informed you (of) this?" He said "The knowledgeable, the expert informed me."
80 He frowned and turned away that the blind came to him?
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9aHoM3E2Go- You dismiss it as being out of thin air yet maAAdoodatin is relative not always 3-10 max days.
324 illa ayyaman maAAdoodatin ? talks about a short time in hell (this is relative).
118 And if We delay the torment for them till a numbered term (again relative).
1220 darahima maAAdoodatin ? talks about a small price?
Depends on denominations used, example (10) $1 coins, (40) quarters, (100) dimes, a relative small price.-
There is no redundancy or contradiction; simply says make up missed days as without water (56) no hardship.?
?.so who witnessed from you the month, so he should fast it, and who was sick or on journey, so numbered from other days. God wants with you the ease and does not want with you the hardship, and to complete alAAiddata? -
Again, you're theory is no different than intercalation (937) legal one year, illegal in another.
This has been discussed previously in length. Please do your homework before asking.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12409.0
Clearly refuted; your restriction drifts a month; Jun 22 legal one year while another start July 21 it is not.
In the context there is absolutely no mention of "hagg". It is clear that you are blindly repeating what sectrians believe.
What's going on -- the Kaaba, the caravan/people moving, after completing Ihram you may hunt?
It is your false understanding of "shahr" as 29.53059 that creates a major inconsistency between 2226 and 2228, which clearly show that we are consistently counting events and not a fixed period.
There are no inconsistencies.
2226 about men, they swear clock starts and ends 4 months later.
2228 about women divorced wait three periods, variable different for each woman.936 clearly tells us that this is a system that is there since the god created the heavens and the earth.
This just shows that you are running out of anything of value to say.
If it is 14 full moons, then you count 14 full-moons. I already explained the purpose of counting of 12 according to 936 and it has nothing to do with spouse waiting period.
Like your hunting restriction, a widow waits 13 months if husband died on the day of a full moon while another waits 29 days longer if he died one day after a full moon and in addition, either woman will not be able to tell 5-6 days since they?ll see a full moon.
In other words, you admit that you NEVER SAW THE NEW MOON and that you are merely speaking out of lack of experience.
Even HALF MOON is a better marker that people will agree about more than the NEW MOON.
This shows that you still don't understand my theory. I NEVER even proposed a calendar.
I am not excited because I knew this all along. You are the one who just learned now about the fact that most cultures used the full-moon to mark events throughout history.
Yet somehow, unlike the new moon, no one ever disagrees on when the full-moon occurs. Maybe it is rocket science to you but it is simple to everyone else.
Again cannot exactly determine a NEW MOON or FULL MOON with naked eye. If it?s cloudy you missed your fast, if you are blind/partly blind or even have 20/20 vision as evident the last 5 days which they all look alike to me and others which I asked while playing golf under the full moon light; does that moon look full to you, which he replied -- I can't see. lol
The new moon crescent start fast then when seeing it again ?D? as in Eid ? end fast.
2009 Aug 23
http//www.almanac.com/astronomy/images/m044.jpgPeace
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Peace Eid,
- Already answered this in another post; yes, started that night, when did these events take place, same night?
3124 When you say to the believers "Is it not sufficient for you that your Lord extends (supplies) you with three thousand from the angels sent descending?"
2532-33 And those who disbelieve say "Why is not the Qur'?n revealed to him all at once?" Thus, that We may strengthen your heart thereby. And We have revealed it to you gradually, in stages. And no example or similitude do they bring, but We reveal to you the truth, and the better explanation thereof.
663 And when the prophet confided to some (of) his wives an information, so when she informed with it and God made it apparent on (to) him, he made some of it known and he opposed from some, so when he informed her with it, she said "Who informed you (of) this?" He said "The knowledgeable, the expert informed me."
80 He frowned and turned away that the blind came to him?
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9aHoM3E2Go
"Started that night" is nothing but conjecture. Which night?
According to you those things happened only during 29.53059 days! Clearly, your answer only demonstrates that you don't know the difference between "inzal" (in one night and certainly not 29.53059 days) and "tanzil" (gradually to the prophet's heart and certainly not 29.53059 days). Revelation is a two stage process.
- You dismiss it as being out of thin air yet maAAdoodatin is relative not always 3-10 max days.
324 illa ayyaman maAAdoodatin ? talks about a short time in hell (this is relative).
118 And if We delay the torment for them till a numbered term (again relative).
1220 darahima maAAdoodatin ? talks about a small price?
Depends on denominations used, example (10) $1 coins, (40) quarters, (100) dimes, a relative small price.
The denomination is already known as Darahim so you are simply hanging at straws to save your contradictions. Please provide even a single piece of evidence showing that "ma3doodat" means 29.53059. After that please explain why the god would give redundant info. If "shahr" is already known to be 29.53059 days then why say "ayyam ma3doodat" and why say "complete the count"? Do you think that the god likes to give redundant and useless info!?
- There is no redundancy or contradiction; simply says make up missed days as without water (56) no hardship.?
?.so who witnessed from you the month, so he should fast it, and who was sick or on journey, so numbered from other days. God wants with you the ease and does not want with you the hardship, and to complete alAAiddata?
"Ayyam ma3doodat" has nothing to do with making up missed days. It clearly describes the term of the fast. Had it already been known to be 29.53059 days as you conjecture then this would definitely be redundant and contradictory info.
- Again, you're theory is no different than intercalation (937) legal one year, illegal in another.
Where is the word "intercalation" in 937? You are making up meanings out of thin air again. Also, I don't do anything in alternate fashion one year and then not do it the next and so on. I simply count 12 "shahr" EVERY SINGLE YEAR as commanded in 936.
Clearly refuted; your restriction drifts a month; Jun 22 legal one year while another start July 21 it is not.
It drifts but still within the period where wild life needs to be protected. It is not left up to the whims of people as you want it to be.
What's going on -- the Kaaba, the caravan/people moving, after completing Ihram you may hunt?
Where does it say that after completing "Ihram" you may hunt? It is not my problem that you are clueless about what the words "kaaba" and "ihram" mean and therefore are unable to translate them and are blindly following sectarians.
There are no inconsistencies.
2226 about men, they swear clock starts and ends 4 months later.
2228 about women divorced wait three periods, variable different for each woman.The SAME EXACT Arabic word "tarabus" is used as the verb in both 2226 and 2228, indicating that it is the same exact action of waiting for events. Your conjecture creates inconsistencies between how the same exact verb is used.
Like your hunting restriction, a widow waits 13 months if husband died on the day of a full moon while another waits 29 days longer if he died one day after a full moon
Same as for the woman in 2228 she will wait longer if she just had her period or shorter if her period happens right after.
and in addition, either woman will not be able to tell 5-6 days since they?ll see a full moon.
Only if they are idiots.
Again cannot exactly determine a NEW MOON or FULL MOON with naked eye. If it?s cloudy you missed your fast, if you are blind/partly blind or even have 20/20 vision as evident the last 5 days which they all look alike to me and others which I asked while playing golf under the full moon light; does that moon look full to you, which he replied -- I can't see. lol
The new moon crescent start fast then when seeing it again ?D? as in Eid ? end fast.You know that you are lying. I guarantee that you NEVER saw the new moon your entire life.
Peace,
Ayman
- Already answered this in another post; yes, started that night, when did these events take place, same night?
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Peace Ayman,
"Started that night" is nothing but conjecture. Which night?
According to you those things happened only during 29.53059 days! Clearly, your answer only demonstrates that you don't know the difference between "inzal" (in one night and certainly not 29.53059 days) and "tanzil" (gradually to the prophet's heart and certainly not 29.53059 days). Revelation is a two stage process.
Start in a night during the month of Ramadan and I see what was posted finally caught your attention that "revelation is a two stage process" otherwise all those events happened only during one night would contradict.
If you still disagree, here's another chance to answer ? when did these events take place, same night?
3124 When you say to the believers "Is it not sufficient for you that your Lord extends (supplies) you with three thousand from the angels sent descending?"
2532-33 And those who disbelieve say "Why is not the Qur'?n revealed to him all at once?" Thus, that We may strengthen your heart thereby. And We have revealed it to you gradually, in stages. And no example or similitude do they bring, but We reveal to you the truth, and the better explanation thereof.
663 And when the prophet confided to some (of) his wives an information, so when she informed with it and God made it apparent on (to) him, he made some of it known and he opposed from some, so when he informed her with it, she said "Who informed you (of) this?" He said "The knowledgeable, the expert informed me."
80 He frowned and turned away that the blind came to him?
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9aHoM3E2GoThe denomination is already known as Darahim so you are simply hanging at straws to save your contradictions. Please provide even a single piece of evidence showing that "ma3doodat" means 29.53059. After that please explain why the god would give redundant info. If "shahr" is already known to be 29.53059 days then why say "ayyam ma3doodat" and why say "complete the count"? Do you think that the god likes to give redundant and useless info!?
"Ayyam ma3doodat" has nothing to do with making up missed days. It clearly describes the term of the fast. Had it already been known to be 29.53059 days as you conjecture then this would definitely be redundant and contradictory info.
Already explained "darahima maAAdoodatin" is a relative term meaning they paid a small price and posted other verses...
324 illa ayyaman maAAdoodatin ? talks about a short time in hell (this is relative).
118 And if We delay the torment for them till a numbered term (again relative).Two questions; don?t skip answering like your full moon every 3rd or 2nd year?
2185?.so who witnessed from you the month, so he should fast it, and who was sick or on journey, so numbered from other days?
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How do you fast a full moon? Is not the above logically clear that shahr is a number of days not a single event?
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Which part in 2185 informs you that ?God wants with you the ease and does not want with you the hardship, and to complete alAAiddata???
Where is the word "intercalation" in 937? You are making up meanings out of thin air again. Also, I don't do anything in alternate fashion one year and then not do it the next and so on. I simply count 12 "shahr" EVERY SINGLE YEAR as commanded in 936.
It drifts but still within the period where wild life needs to be protected. It is not left up to the whims of people as you want it to be.
Like those before who inserted a drift month to beautify their ego exactly described?
937 But the postponement an increase in the disbelief, those who disbelieved become misguided with it, they permit it a year and they forbid it a year, to agree to (the) term God prohibited, so they permit what God forbade, and (the) evil (of) their deeds was beautified for them, and God does not guide the nation the disbelieving.
Where does it say that after completing "Ihram" you may hunt? It is not my problem that you are clueless about what the words "kaaba" and "ihram" mean and therefore are unable to translate them and are blindly following sectarians.
I asked you what's going on (51-2 and 594-97), where are people traveling to?
596 Permitted for you is the sea's fishing, and its food, enjoyment to you and to the caravan/people often moving, and forbidden on you the land's hunting?
The SAME EXACT Arabic word "tarabus" is used as the verb in both 2226 and 2228, indicating that it is the same exact action of waiting for events. Your conjecture creates inconsistencies between how the same exact verb is used.
Yeah, what word did you expect? Waiting a stated time is waiting until a due date.
2226
952
998
20135
5230Same as for the woman in 2228 she will wait longer if she just had her period or shorter if her period happens right after.
Absurd, comparing men who have to fast two consecutive months (492) to woman's periods; all have to fast exactly the same number of days not 29 days shorter/longer.
Only if they are idiots.
You know that you are lying. I guarantee that you NEVER saw the new moon your entire life.
The only arrogant pompous idiot is you and your ignorant cheerleaders posting in this thread.
I looked at the moon every night for 5 nights which they all looked full as it did to a member of my family and anyone else who bothered to look -- see guest's earlier post. Instead replying with idiot remarks simply ask members of your family or whoever to look at the moon the next time it is 98% full see if they are idiots too.
Btw, I'll try taking a picture of the new moon crescent coming up for you; not sure if my iPhone will catch it although aiming is proof.
Peace
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Salam. Ayman, i live in Derbent, Russia, when i should fast accordin to your investigation? And, stop being so mad guyz, stop hatin on each otha so much, its not islam, even if yall will be fastin your whole life.
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Peace,
How did Prophet Muhammad and his follower fast?
The simple, short and sweet answer is According to the Qur'an.
Following is the details of my understanding
They used to fast in the month of Ramadan per 2185 (the Arabic month as we know it today)
There are 12 months per 936. And one moon cycle = one month per 2189, 1433, 555. Please note that the sun cannot give us the month because of the inherent long cycle. It does however give us days, nights, dawn, midday, sunset which are used for performing salat and other daily duties.
Now, 2189 says ?They ask you about the phases of the moon?. Clearly these phases belongs to one moon cycle because we only see one moon at a time. Therefore, the moon cycle begins with new moon and ends with the end of the last phase of the moon. This establishes a clear boundary between current moon and the subsequent moon which is not to be violated. Now, if someone foolishly define full-moon to full-moon cycle then he would be violating the boundary as established by the Quran . Further, he would introduce a bigger error in the timing system with this man made system.
Based on the above information, Ramadan starts with the sighting of new moon in the month of Ramadan. Errors will be made in sighting moon. Lets use an example to demonstrate the errors.
At location A, new moon is sighted with no problem and they have 30 days of fast.
At location B, moon sighted is two days old. Hence they have 29 days of fast.
At location C, moon sighted is three days old due to overcast issue. Thus, they have 28 days of fast.
Now, what is the God given solution to this problem. And the solution is given in 2184 - ?Specific days ......?. The God knows that we will be making unintentional errors and gives a way out by saying specific days instead of month. The specific days are 30, 29, 28.
Now lets analyze some quotes of Ayman's
Quote from Ayman "Then you will never be able to count 12 of your 29.53059 days periods in any year. You are violating 936."
This is not true per the following illustration
1 Month = 1 lunar Cycle = 29.53059 days
12 Months = 12 lunar Cycles = 354.36708 days
Therefore, by definition a lunar year is 354.36708 days period.
If you divide 354.36708/29.53059 you get 12.
Quote from Ayman "As I mentioned my way is the ONLY way."
We have been trying to find what your ONLY way is? Please tell us the start dates and the end dates of your timing system for the past three years. Map your start and end dates to solar calender in use today. Then we will see what happens when rubber meets the road. Why are you not releasing these information. Are you trying to hide something or are you afraid of knowledgeable people. Your mentality of my way or the highway will not work with people who uses their brain to verify the val idity of your claim.
Quote from Ayman ?Yet somehow, unlike the new moon, no one ever disagrees on when the full-moon occurs. Maybe it is rocket science to you but it is simple to everyone else.?
Your followers do not disagree because the devil already has you and your follower. Typically, when someone tries to do good deed, the satan whisper not to do it e.g. charity, salat, helping poor etc. In your case satan already has you, therefore, satan do not have to do any additional work.
Ayman and his followers will have this to say on the day of Judgment
3432 ? The leaders will say to those who followed them, ?Are we the ones who diverted you from the guidance after it came to you? No; it is you who were wicked.?
3433 ? The followers will say to their leaders, ?It was you who schemed night and day, then commanded us to be unappreciative of God, and to set up idols to rank with Him.? They will be ridden with remorse, when they see the retribution, for we will place shackles around the necks of those who disbelieved. Are they not justly requited for what they did?