Bakkah
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http//www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Dome_Of_The_Rock/qibla.html
That article shows that the argument of "mihrab miscalculation" is not valid. It is not possible to prove that the qiblah was in the direction of Jerusalem after the change to Mecca, as hadeeth tradition claims.
To me, the writings of Layth and Ayman seem to be influenced by the ideas of Hagarism, which was refuted by the majority of orientalists.
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http//www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Dome_Of_The_Rock/qibla.html
That article shows that the argument of "mihrab miscalculation" is not valid. It is not possible to prove that the qiblah was in the direction of Jerusalem after the change to Mecca, as hadeeth tradition claims.
To me, the writings of Layth and Ayman seem to be influenced by the ideas of Hagarism, which was refuted by the majority of orientalists.
You actually made the point better than I did (due to my miserably poor memory). Jerusalem was the point of reverence in Islam before Mecca (supposedly). There's the pre-Mecca evidence.
FYI, I've never understood Hagarism. Even though a lot of Islam is justified by traditions of Hajar (namely the rites of Hajj) she doesn't figure into the Quran at all. Why would these 'Hajarite' arabs identify themselves with her, accepting her as their matriarch, but then cut her out of their main religious text? Yet another thing I believe Muslims adopted post-conquest of Jerusalem.
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Where are these guys now?
Yeah, I also thought of that! Where is idolfree? He was a great contributer and he was a moderater too!
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Peace es818,
To all of you who say the Hajj is to a place other than Mecca
What are your comments on this? http//www.islamic-awareness.org/History/kaaba.htmlThe genuine antiquity of Caaba ascends beyond the Christian era in describing the coast of the Red sea the Greek historian Diodorus has remarked, between the Thamudites and the Sabeans, a famous temple, whose superior sanctity was revered by all the Arabians; the linen of silken veil, which is annually renewed by the Turkish emperor, was first offered by the Homerites, who reigned seven hundred years before the time of Mohammad.
Diodorus Siculus lived in the 1st century BCE so perhaps you might want to ask Saifullah the following questions
- How did Diodorus Siculus mention in his remark the Turkish Empire, which didn't even exist until at least 1400 years later!?
- How did Diodorus Siculus mention in his remark Mohammad who lived 700 years later!?
What Gibbons gave was his own baseless opinion NOT a REMARK by Diodorus Siculus as Saifuallah's quote misleadingly insinuates.
It is interesting to know that Claudius Ptolemy of Alexandria, mathematician and astronomer, flourishing about a century after Pliny, undertook to make an atlas of the habitable world. He was not a descriptive geographer, and his book was intended to be no more than a commentary on his maps. He enumerated some hundred and fourteen cities or villages in Arabia Felix.
For example, Dumaetha, placed by Ptolemy just outside the northern boundary of Arabia Felix, must be the mediaeval Arabian Daumet, which is today the chief village of the great oasis of Jauf. Hejr, famous in the "times of ignorance" as the seat of a kingdom, and now Medayin Salih, is Ptolemy's Egra. His Thaim is Teima, now known for its inscriptions to have had temples and some sort of civilization as far back as 500 BC. It is the Tema of Job. In Lathrippa, placed inland from Iambia (Yambo), we recognize the Iathrippa of Stephan of Byzantium, the Yathrib of the early Arab traditions, now honoured as El Medina, the City of Cities.
Apart from this a place called Macoraba is also shown which is identified as Mecca (please refer to the map facing page 17 of reference ).
G E von Grunebaum saysMecca is mentioned by Ptolemy, and the name he gives it allows us to identify it as a South Arabian foundation created around a sanctuary.
Now here are the facts that one can get with a proper educated reading of Saifullah's article
- Similar to Diodorus Siculus, Ptolemy doesn't mention Mecca at all.
- Ptolemy mentions a small insignificant town in the passing by the name of Macoraba not Mecca.
- The location of the Macroba is not identified by Ptolemy as the location of present day Mecca. It is Saifullah himself who does the identification and this is why he TAKES THIS MOST IMPORTANT PART OUT OF THE QUOTATION. He then quotes a lie by von Grunebaum.
When we actually look at what Ptolemy said, we see that Ptolemy actually further discredits Mecca. Here is a copy of the translation of the relevant entry in Ptolemy where he mentions Macoraba
http//i44.tinypic.com/2unwljd.gif
Please note that Ptolemy describes Macoraba as the fifth city south of Yathrib and the fourth south of Carna. So while present day Mecca is to the north of Carna, Macoraba is to the south of Carna. Ptolemy skipped over the present location of Mecca as if it didn't exist. Ironically, the best evidence that defenders of Mecca have actually discredits Mecca.
I hope this helps.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Rami,
Where is the valley of Baca, the grassless valley?
Where does it say that the valley is grassless? The valley is refered to as "without human cultivation" ( ) when Abraham settled some of his descendants there. This doesn't mean that it is grassless or plantless or that it later wasn't cultivated.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Cushan,
- The word Mecca only appears in passing the in actual text of the Quran.
This is not accurate. The word that appears is "mecca" (lower case) not "Mecca". It is a common noun that means "destruction". Here is the translation of Yusufali and the corrected version
048.024
YUSUFALI And it is He Who has restrained their hands from you and your hands from them in the midst of Makka, after that He gave you the victory over them. And Allah sees well all that ye do.048.024
YUSUFALI And it is He Who has restrained their hands from you and your hands from them in the midst of destruction, after that He gave you the victory over them. And Allah sees well all that ye do.As you can see, the common noun fits perfectly in the context.
- The word Ka'aba only appears twice in one Surah, yet Muslim tradition uses the title almost exclusively for the site.
Again, as with "mecca", the common noun "ka'aba"/base fits in both instances. This is a universal concept and even kids all over the world understand that the "base" is a safe place when they play.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace ES818,
If the Hajj was performed to a place other than Mecca, shouldn't there be traces of the practice somewhere, just as one can construct arguments against the hadeeth using hadeeth?
The problem is two-fold
- What you refer to as Hajj has nothing to do with the real "hajj"/feast.
- What you refer to as Hajj is in fact pagan annual celebration of fertility goddess rebirth.
Indeed, one can see traces of this pagan rebirth celebrations to this day, for example, in the raditional Subu' birth celebrations which take place 7 days after the birth of a newborn and they involve spinning 7 times around the house. More on the pagan origin of the sectarian so-called Hajj here
http//www.free-minds.org/ayman
What about non-hadeeth sources? Shouldn't it be possible find historical accounts of groups of people performing a pilgrimage?
If you look for the meaning of the word "hajj" as used by the people of the book, you will see that it means "feast" and it was used to denote the annual harvest feast. This is why when you read the great reading you find that 90% of the passages about "hajj" have to do with livestock and eating and offering free food.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace ES818,
http//www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Dome_Of_The_Rock/qibla.html
That article shows that the argument of "mihrab miscalculation" is not valid. It is not possible to prove that the qiblah was in the direction of Jerusalem after the change to Mecca, as hadeeth tradition claims.
The Christians oriented their churches' apse with the winter sunrise. This can be seen in early churches such as the Hagia Sophia and Hagia Irene. As can be seen from the article of Saifullah et al., this is also the case for the Fustat mosque in Egypt where the apse is precisely aligned with the winter sunrise and not with Jerusalem or present day Mecca. All one can conclude from the data is that there was no one specific direction.
To me, the writings of Layth and Ayman seem to be influenced by the ideas of Hagarism, which was refuted by the majority of orientalists.
People often misunderstand what Hagarism is about. The most important point of Hagarism has nothing to do with Mecca or Qibla. It has to do with the cultural forces affecting the new Islamic empire. In fact, Hagarism inadvertently proves that the great reading dates to a much earlier time than the invention of the town called Mecca.
Peace,
Ayman
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Is it possible to historically date the first mentioning of the Hajj as performed nowadays? Does anybody know any reference?
Peace
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Peace ES818,
Is it possible to historically date the first mentioning of the Hajj as performed nowadays? Does anybody know any reference?
It depends what you mean. Do you mean the so-called Hajj (capital H) or the common "hajj" (lower case). Both predate the Islamic empire.
The primary elements of the sectarian so-called Hajj predate the Islamic empire and goes back to Nabataean times. You find therefore similar stone cubes or rectangular figures in places such as Petra. They symbolize the Nabataean idols, namely the chief goddess Allat. The same goes for the Black Stone, where you find similar black stones in ancient times associated with fertility godesses such as Aphrodite. It is interesting that the Aphrodite legend states that her beauty was kept in a black cube. The practice of putting idols in a black box dates back to the late ancient Egyptian kingdoms. Perhaps by that time people started to realize that the statues of idols were nothing but stones so the priests needed a different approach. So the priests would keep idols such as Horus in a black box with an opening in one of its corners. The common people would then submit their requests to the priest and the priest in turn would whisper their supplication to the idol through the opening. The common people were not allowed to look in the cube. Rituals such as spinning seven times around the idol were described in the fourth century CE by Epiphanius, the Bishop of Salamis when writing about the cult of the Nabataean.
The earliest post-Islamic document to reference the sectarian Hajj comes not from an Islamic source but from John of Damascus who wrote in the 730s CE of the Arabs still worshipping Aphrodite (the hellenized Allat) and kissing and rubbing a stone that represents her head (Source Hoyland, Seeing Islam as Others Saw it).
On the other hand, the common noun "hajj" has nothing to do with the above and was first used by the people of the book to mean "feast". Please see the following discussion on this matter
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597976.0
So essentially, like Christians who continued their pagan traditions under new Christianized names such as Christmas, Muslims too continued their pagan traditions by borrowing common nouns from the great reading to name their pagan idols and rituals.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Cushan,
This is not accurate. The word that appears is "mecca" (lower case) not "Mecca". It is a common noun that means "destruction". Here is the translation of Yusufali and the corrected version
048.024
YUSUFALI And it is He Who has restrained their hands from you and your hands from them in the midst of Makka, after that He gave you the victory over them. And Allah sees well all that ye do.048.024
YUSUFALI And it is He Who has restrained their hands from you and your hands from them in the midst of destruction, after that He gave you the victory over them. And Allah sees well all that ye do.Peace,
Ayman
Dear Brother
Evidence is required for this translation.
Secondly the word "Makkata" cannot be translated because it is a proper noun.
Regards -
Peace ES818,
The Christians oriented their churches' apse with the winter sunrise. This can be seen in early churches such as the Hagia Sophia and Hagia Irene.
Peace,
Ayman
This is only partly true. Many very early churches were built on the sites of old pagan temples that did face the sunrise, but later ones were built with the alter in the east so the congregation (and Priest when in prayer) would be facing the so-called "Holy Land" where Jesus was born and died. In the west, of course, both the sunrise and the holy land are in almost the same direction. This is also a throw back from western Judaism where Synagogues face east to the site of Salomon's Temple.
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Peace Rev.John,
This is only partly true. Many very early churches were built on the sites of old pagan temples that did face the sunrise, but later ones were built with the alter in the east so the congregation (and Priest when in prayer) would be facing the so-called "Holy Land" where Jesus was born and died. In the west, of course, both the sunrise and the holy land are in almost the same direction. This is also a throw back from western Judaism where Synagogues face east to the site of Salomon's Temple.
It is not just the apse of early churches that followed pagan traditions, much of Christianity's symbols have their roots in paganism. Throughout the ancient world, people venerated fertility idols which had a connection to the sun. The direction of the winter sunrise, as in the early churches apse and in the placement of the Black Stone in Mecca, marks the location of the annual rebirth of the pagan fertility idol. This is also why the birth celebrations of the newborn idol took place around the winter solstice. In the Roman Empire this pagan birth celebration took place precisely on December 25th (now called Christmas). So this is certainly not an isolated case of the apse of early churches being accidently oriented to the winter sunrise but is part of a pattern of delibrate and concerted adoption of pagan symbolism and beliefs into so-called Christianity.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Rev.John,
It is not just the apse of early churches that followed pagan traditions, much of Christianity's symbols have their roots in paganism. Throughout the ancient world, people venerated fertility idols which had a connection to the sun. The direction of the winter sunrise, as in the early churches apse and in the placement of the Black Stone in Mecca, marks the location of the annual rebirth of the pagan fertility idol. This is also why the birth celebrations of the newborn idol took place around the winter solstice. In the Roman Empire this pagan birth celebration took place precisely on December 25th (now called Christmas). So this is certainly not an isolated case of the apse of early churches being accidently oriented to the winter sunrise but is part of a pattern of delibrate and concerted adoption of pagan symbolism and beliefs into so-called Christianity.
Peace,
Ayman
whatever
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Dear Ayman
Do not avoid these two questions.
What is your source which says that
Macca = Destruction
Secondly ,it is being used as Diptote in the Quran.What is the reason for this use ?
{I hope this time you know what the diptote is }
Regardswe also hope you use your own brian this time instead of relying on authorities. welcome back welcome
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whatever
I guess you knew that!
