Hot/"ramadan" Answer
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In Urdu everyday we use many derivatives of root sh- ha -ra , and surprisingly all carry a connotation of "some thing obvious", "something you cant miss" , "something which itself makes its presence known even if you are not interested in it"
we have , Mash-hoor, from sh ha ra, meaning famous.
we have, Shoh-raut, from sh ha ra, meaning fame or reppo.
we have, Ishti-har , from sh ha ra, meaning advertisement.We Muslims/Pakistanis, have no interest/reason to look for a full moon, and hence we never do it.
But yet there is generally no confusion, we all know that now is a full moon night. We do not look for it , but it tells us itself, It is there, just there, big, shiny, bright , soon after sun set, like an advertisement, telling us "look i am full tonight".
siki
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let us assume for a while that shahr is a month, and we have to take moon cycles to start this period, we can count from any "one particular shape to the same shape again, for completing a cycle", logically we would select" a shape most visible/obvious, and least confusionable. The so called new crecent moon is least bright and its duration is minimun in the sky, where as exactly opposite is true for the full moon.
"why should God encourage us to start counting from an impossible marker? Do we understand correctly what does the term marker? and what does it necessitate? Do you think God is stupid? What ever little I have known HIM , HE is not, "whereas , we all are, to a certain degree"
Are you guys blind, or don't want to see ?
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peace siki, all,
Yes, multiple Eids is a very common practice in countries, even in the UK with all its so-called technology. Many years ago I had the pleasure of discussing with a member of the committee who actually decided when Eid was for the area, and he told us they never actually attempted to look for any new moon, they all just had a chat and decided when was best or what other countries were doing or what their particular sect of Islam was doing and did that. Much to my and my cousins surprise at the time (well, more so to their surprise, I was half expecting it), but that was what they did, and no doubt still do. To think that God would make us stumble about with some sort of haphazard difficult to implement timing system is nonsense, as you pointed out.
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I live in Pakistan and there are at least three times in a year that people make a positive effort to look for the so called new moon (crescent) 1- we look for the crescent for so called Ramadan to start Ramadan, 2- we look out for crescent to end Ramadan, and this one is usually the favorite, because it signals the end of fasting and brings in the Ed festival next morning. 3- we look for crescent moon in the Islamic month of zul hajj, because this brings us a precise date for Hajj, and eid ul fittar.
On these three occasions, soon after sun set, you will find people/families gathered on roof tops, and making positive efforts to locate the crescent moon. We also did the same in our childhood.
All these years , I can only remember once that i ever saw a new crescent moon, and that also with great effort , and when i took my gaze/focus off and tried to relocate, I couldn't, despite knowing its exact location. It was there at same spot but i could see it again only with very positive consistent efforts.
After this I gave up sighting the moon, knowing that it is a very very difficult exercise, and no wonder , we have the official moon sighting committees in each province, consisting a bunch of Mullahs , positioned at towers/water tanks with star gazer telescopes. But yet they never find, or see it. And whenever they have announced a positive moon sighting, It is like this,
"From one hour up to 3 hours after sun set, The regular TV transmissions are interrupted, and the chief Mullah (head of the moon sighting committee) announce like this, "We have a witness reporting from so and so village confirming on oath that he did see the crescent , so hereby we confirm and announce the start of the month tomorrow, and fast/eid tomorrow"
Even today this is a regular practice, at least 20% of a 180 million nation, make some kind off effort to locate the crescent moon on these three occasions. And also, hundreds of experienced clerics divided in 5 groups for each province, look for it with specialised equipment at designated watch towers, but at the end make a mess of it. Because it boils down to a sole witness reporting from an unknown village, And when the committee reports no sighting or discredits the sightings reported by hallucinating individuals, we end up having two or three eids in the country ( ( that is almost every other year)
My Pakistani brothers and sisters, did i exaggerate?
peace
siki
You are 100 % correct '(
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Peace Siki,
You are da best bravo bravo bravo
I am becoming a big fan of yours ) May The God bless you for your constant striving and thank you so much.
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Peace,
Two quotes from Ayman
?In conclusion, we can see that The God gave us a clear marker for the restriction month. This clear marker is independent from any man-made calendar system and instead relies on easily witnessed cosmic phenomena.?
?You already missed the scorching full-moon (?shahr ramadhan?) for this year. The night of the scorching full-moon for 2009 was July 6. Therefore, the fast started on July 7 for 10 days and so the last day of fasting was July 16.
For next year, the scorching full-moon will be on June 25, 2010. Therefore, the first day of the fast will be June 26 for 10 days and so the last day will be July 5.?
Contradiction, contradiction, contradiction, ???????
First he says that his timing system is independent of manmade calendar/timing system. Then he uses the very manmade calendar to forecast the occurrence of so called next scorching full-moon i.e. June 25, 2010. Any (his) visual based system is incapable of predicting future events. He is also using the manmade calendar to predict summer solstice (June 21-22) and the occurrence of full-moon. But he forbids the use same (modern) calendar/timing system to predict the occurrence new moon. This is hypocrisy at its worst.
4145 ? The hypocrites will be committed to the lowest pit of Hell, and you will find no one to help them.
The next thing to note are the two dates July 6, 2009 and the June 25, 2010. In 2009 Ayman?s year begins on July 6 (happy New Year) and in 2010 his new year begins on June 25. And he claims that his timing system is not arbitrary. He has an arbitrary and shifting reference timing system. Where is the equation for your convoluted timing system? Stop using the Naval observatory data or manmade astronomical data. USE YOUR SYSTEM ONLY TO CALCULATE DATE, HOURS, MINUTES. Show us the data you have gather thus far and the governing equations that predicts the orbit of earth and moon.
The next thing to note is that the month of July is not the hottest month of the year in the northern hemispheres. The hottest month is the month of August (dog days of August). This is because it takes time to heat land and ocean water starting from the longest day of June 21. It is common sense that the temperature of huge masses of water and land cannot be change instantly. This phenomenon is observed when one tries to boil water on stove. Now, this simple known fact is in contradiction with Ayman?s theory of scorching full-moon within 0-30 days after summer solstice.
The next thing to note is that in some years the full-moon will occur one, two, or three days prior to the summer solstice. How doest one make distinction between this full-moon and the one after the summer solstice. Especially when you remove the concept of calendar and utilize Ayman?s theory only ??..instead relies on easily witnessed cosmic phenomena.? The answer is you cannot make such distinction, it is impossible. Try it.
Then the moon of July 6, 2009 is at 99%. And Ayman calls it a full-moon. Now we will apply same definition to the moon of July 8, 2009 which is also at 99%. Therefore it is also full-moon per Ayman?s definition. Now, Ayman?s theory begets two full-moons within one moon cycle. What a theory. What a convoluted mind.
3919 ? With regard to those who have deserved the retribution, can you save those who are already in Hell?
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If husband died today which calendar is used to count exactly one year with 12 equal months?
http//static.howstuffworks.com/gif/ancient-civilizations-use-sundials-1.jpg
http//free-minds.org/quran/PM/2/240
Progressive Muslims 2240 And for those of you whose lives are terminated and they leave widows behind; a testimony to them that they may enjoy for one year without being made to vacate. If they leave then there is no sin upon you for what they do to themselves in goodness; and God is Noble, Wise.
http//free-minds.org/quran/PM/2/234
Progressive Muslims 2234 And for those of you whose lives are terminated and they leave widows behind, then their widows will have a required interim period of four months and ten. So when they reach their required interim, then there is no sin upon you for what they do to themselves equitably. And God is Expert to what you do. -
Peace Rex,
Thank you for your question and a warm welcome to the forum.
If husband died today which calendar is used to count exactly one year with 12 equal months?
There is no such thing as a year with 12 equal months. Even the useless lunar year will have months with 30 days and months with 29 days. So you need to reword your question.
http//free-minds.org/quran/PM/2/240
Progressive Muslims 2240 And for those of you whose lives are terminated and they leave widows behind; a testimony to them that they may enjoy for one year without being made to vacate. If they leave then there is no sin upon you for what they do to themselves in goodness; and God is Noble, Wise.The word "year" doesn't occur in the passage and the word "until" is missing. The Arabic "7awl" more closely means cycle such as a crop cycle. It is used for example to describe the term for weaning a newborn in 2233. The term for weaning a newborn is also described in 4615. We can use 4615 and 2233 together to determine what the "7awl" is for a woman.
4615 Pregnancy + Weaning = 30 full-moons
2233 Weaning = 2 "7awl"We know that the term of the pregnancy is 10 full-moons, therefore
Weaning = 30 - 10 = 20 = 2 "7awl"
"7awl" = 10 full-moonsSo in the case of a woman/newborn, the "7awl" is the woman's birthing term.
http//free-minds.org/quran/PM/2/234
Progressive Muslims 2234 And for those of you whose lives are terminated and they leave widows behind, then their widows will have a required interim period of four months and ten. So when they reach their required interim, then there is no sin upon you for what they do to themselves equitably. And God is Expert to what you do.As we saw above, the "7awl" is equivalent to 10 full-moons so when 2234 says "four full-moons and ten" it is another way of saying "four full-moons and a "7awl"". So going back to 2240, we can see that it is a continuation of 2234 and talks about remaining until the "7awl"/10 full-moons described above in 2234. Indeed
http//free-minds.org/quran/PM/2/242
2242 It is such that God clarifies for you His revelations that you may comprehend.Peace,
Ayman
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For next year, the scorching full-moon will be on June 25, 2010. Therefore, the first day of the fast will be June 26 for 10 days and so the last day will be July 5.?
Contradiction, contradiction, contradiction, ???????
First he says that his timing system is independent of manmade calendar/timing system. Then he uses the very manmade calendar to forecast the occurrence of so called next scorching full-moon i.e. June 25, 2010. Any (his) visual based system is incapable of predicting future events. He is also using the manmade calendar to predict summer solstice (June 21-22) and the occurrence of full-moon. But he forbids the use same (modern) calendar/timing system to predict the occurrence new moon. This is hypocrisy at its worst.
4145 ? The hypocrites will be committed to the lowest pit of Hell, and you will find no one to help them.
The next thing to note are the two dates July 6, 2009 and the June 25, 2010. In 2009 Ayman?s year begins on July 6 (happy New Year) and in 2010 his new year begins on June 25. And he claims that his timing system is not arbitrary. He has an arbitrary and shifting reference timing system. Where is the equation for your convoluted timing system? Stop using the Naval observatory data or manmade astronomical data. USE YOUR SYSTEM ONLY TO CALCULATE DATE, HOURS, MINUTES. Show us the data you have gather thus far and the governing equations that predicts the orbit of earth and moon.
The next thing to note is that the month of July is not the hottest month of the year in the northern hemispheres. The hottest month is the month of August (dog days of August). This is because it takes time to heat land and ocean water starting from the longest day of June 21. It is common sense that the temperature of huge masses of water and land cannot be change instantly. This phenomenon is observed when one tries to boil water on stove. Now, this simple known fact is in contradiction with Ayman?s theory of scorching full-moon within 0-30 days after summer solstice.
The next thing to note is that in some years the full-moon will occur one, two, or three days prior to the summer solstice. How doest one make distinction between this full-moon and the one after the summer solstice. Especially when you remove the concept of calendar and utilize Ayman?s theory only ??..instead relies on easily witnessed cosmic phenomena.? The answer is you cannot make such distinction, it is impossible. Try it.
Then the moon of July 6, 2009 is at 99%. And Ayman calls it a full-moon. Now we will apply same definition to the moon of July 8, 2009 which is also at 99%. Therefore it is also full-moon per Ayman?s definition. Now, Ayman?s theory begets two full-moons within one moon cycle. What a theory. What a convoluted mind.
3919 ? With regard to those who have deserved the retribution, can you save those who are already in Hell?
Salaam
I stopped contributing to this forum as I had my own grievances, but today I logged on only to say this handshake
You are absolutely spot on and I would challenge all of Aymans cronies to spot their so called sharul Ramadan without the aid of manmade system. No wonder he has ignored your response
Siki goes on about chaos in a Pakistan of moon sighting and pays no attention to the fact that fifteen hundred years ago there was very little pollution in the world and spotting stars and new moon was not difficult. Stars were used for navigation and the moon for measuring the months; it?s only in the last two hundred years that the skies have started to be covered by light pollution as well as smog which makes it difficult to fully appreciate the beautiful night sky.
3041 Free_Minds
Pollution has appeared in the land and the sea by the hands of the people for what they earned. He will make them taste some of what they have done, perhaps they will revert.By advocating a system of fasting according to each part of the world Ayman and his followers are working on a system which is described here
Free_Minds3032
Or like those who split-up their system, and they became sects, each group happy with what it had.Wishing all those who believe a very happy month of Ramadan sun
peace -
Peace Rex,
Quote ?If husband died today which calendar is used to count exactly one year with 12 equal months??
The answer is the lunar calendar.
One month = one moon cycle = 29.530 days (length of all months are 29.530 days)
One year = Twelve months = 12 moon cycles = 12 * 29.530 = 354.36 days.
Therefore, the count starts when the event is triggered and ends at 354.36 days after the trigger.
Example Say the event occurred today at 1000 AM. The end point is 354 days + 0.36 day (8.64 hrs.). The obligated period ends on 354th day at 63824 PM.
Four months + 10 days =128.12 days. Therefore, if the event starts at 1000 AM today, the end point is on 128 day at 12 5248 PM.
This is one way of looking at it. You can also map the time base on sunset as the start of the day. The principle is the same.
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Peace,
Quotes from Ayman
?....... The night of the scorching full-moon for 2009 was July 6.........?
?........For next year, the scorching full-moon will be on June 25, 2010. ........?
The length of days between July 6, 2009 and June 25, 2010 is 354 days. This is lunar based timing system which does not synch up with the seasons. Ayman has disproved his own theory. Way to go Ayman! Thank you for helping me.
The difference between the Ayman's period and solar cycle is 11 days. He has invented the lunar cycle.
Since Ayman is using moon as the reference, the system has to be in synch with the lunar cycles. The issue is Ayman has no knowledge of it. He is clueless of what he did. How sad. He doesn't even know his own system.
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Peace Farida,
I stopped contributing to this forum as I had my own grievances, but today I logged on only to say this handshake
You are absolutely spot on and I would challenge all of Aymans cronies to spot their so called sharul Ramadan without the aid of manmade system. No wonder he has ignored your responseI am sorry to hear that you are still bitter and I wish you peace.
Peace,
Ayman
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Salaam
I stopped contributing to this forum as I had my own grievances, but today I logged on only to say this handshake
You are absolutely spot on and I would challenge all of Aymans cronies to spot their so called sharul Ramadan without the aid of manmade system. No wonder he has ignored your response
Siki goes on about chaos in a Pakistan of moon sighting and pays no attention to the fact that fifteen hundred years ago there was very little pollution in the world and spotting stars and new moon was not difficult. Stars were used for navigation and the moon for measuring the months; it?s only in the last two hundred years that the skies have started to be covered by light pollution as well as smog which makes it difficult to fully appreciate the beautiful night sky.
3041 Free_Minds
Pollution has appeared in the land and the sea by the hands of the people for what they earned. He will make them taste some of what they have done, perhaps they will revert.By advocating a system of fasting according to each part of the world Ayman and his followers are working on a system which is described here
Free_Minds3032
Or like those who split-up their system, and they became sects, each group happy with what it had.Wishing all those who believe a very happy month of Ramadan sun
peace1000 x bravo
I wish the best of luck of luck and success for all those fasting in the month of Ramadan (Shahr Ramadan).
Peace peace
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I just spent ages reading and scratching my head trying to get to the bottom of this ramadan scorching heat business. I am now very confused. I was looking forward to Ramadan starting on the night of 20th Aug 2009 (there's a full moon pic on my calendar but it's an american/jewish calendar (another story!), and I'm in Europe, to add to the confusion!?!)
So... How long is the fast? I'm hearing 30 days, I'm reading 10 days. I'm reading full moon to the crescent (10 days) but a month is 30 days, Solar month (August) is 31 days, Lunar month is 28 days? Also then I'm reading here that with there being 4 resticted months or 4 restricted moons, I'm now worried it might be 4 months of fasting, but I must have read it wrong (I'm a bit confused about the numbers in the words eg 7aj and 7ajj what does this mean please?)So maybe in 2189 which is telling us about the back doors and the front doors and to not beat around the bush, it means to just do the fast and get it over with instead of worrying about the tiny details... maybe it means anytime you see the full moon you should fast in that month. Cos I know sometimes I notice the full moon, I just HAPPEN to see it. But I'm not usually looking for it. And more often than not, the full moon comes and goes without me seeing it. Then again, I don't get out much.
Ok I better not conjecture any further, that is indeed wrong, better get back to using my mind, heart, brain, eyes and ears and work out what I'm going to do about Ramadan this year! Insh'Allah next time I pray, as always, I will ask Allah to guide me aright and keep me off the wrong path, and surely if my intention is to fast purely for the sake of Allah even if I do not know whether it is for 10 days, 28 days, 30 days or 4 months, then better I do some rather than none.
Peace, salaams and best wishes x
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Ayman you causin alot of confusion. confused What is wrong wit you? Well when is Ramadan then and the date if it is different from what we all know.
No, ramadan is fairly known in the west and everywere........................................
Bring your proof....................
So you arnt going to fast in the 9th month? When do you? hypno
I just spent ages reading and scratching my head trying to get to the bottom of this ramadan scorching heat business. I am now very confused. I was looking forward to Ramadan starting on the night of 20th Aug 2009 (there's a full moon pic on my calendar but it's an american/jewish calendar (another story!), and I'm in Europe, to add to the confusion!?!)
So... How long is the fast? I'm hearing 30 days, I'm reading 10 days. I'm reading full moon to the crescent (10 days) but a month is 30 days, Solar month (August) is 31 days, Lunar month is 28 days? Also then I'm reading here that with there being 4 resticted months or 4 restricted moons, I'm now worried it might be 4 months of fasting, but I must have read it wrong (I'm a bit confused about the numbers in the words eg 7aj and 7ajj what does this mean please?)So maybe in 2189 which is telling us about the back doors and the front doors and to not beat around the bush, it means to just do the fast and get it over with instead of worrying about the tiny details... maybe it means anytime you see the full moon you should fast in that month. Cos I know sometimes I notice the full moon, I just HAPPEN to see it. But I'm not usually looking for it. And more often than not, the full moon comes and goes without me seeing it. Then again, I don't get out much.
Ok I better not conjecture any further, that is indeed wrong, better get back to using my mind, heart, brain, eyes and ears and work out what I'm going to do about Ramadan this year! Insh'Allah next time I pray, as always, I will ask Allah to guide me aright and keep me off the wrong path, and surely if my intention is to fast purely for the sake of Allah even if I do not know whether it is for 10 days, 28 days, 30 days or 4 months, then better I do some rather than none.
Peace, salaams and best wishes x
The fast is for the entire month of Ramadan. So stay away from them pharesees and teachers. And it has been made well known so lets not let the matter fall into dispute...................
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Peace Brothers and Sisters
I have been reading this thread for a while now. I see a debate going on but its going in circles. I also sense that many are not ready to research and accept research on face value when it comes to religion and see that its not the end to anything, its a theory at the end and if its logical good, if its not then you say thanks for your efforts.
I been reading the debate about summer solstice theory by Ayman. Very logical arguments so thank you for your research Ayman and may it continue.
I been reading the theory of the winter solstice by Layth in 'The Natural Republic'. Again very logical arguments so thank you Layth for your research may it continue. Just incase you are not familiar with TNR here is a summaryThe calendar of God is one that exists in nature and
which utilizes the entities of sun, moon and star to make a
perfect timing mechanism that is in-line with nature and
in-harmony with our movements through the universe.? The year according to the Scripture is 365 days
(1247, 1712);
? The calendar system for the year is luni-solar
(1712, 105);
? The most special event that occurs during the
year is the Night of Decree (974) which occurs
on the winter solstice.
? The count of the months begins with the full
moon (2189, 3639).
? The month of the winter solstice is known as
the month of ?Ramadhan? (2185).
? The month of Ramadhan is ?Month-1? in the
Islamic calendar;
? Three months of Pilgrimage follow the month of
Ramadhan?all four months are restricted from
hunting any game, while domestic animals and the
catch of the sea are lawful (92-5, 2217, 51, 596);
? After a count of 12 lunar months, if a 13th full
moon appears a full 30 days before the next
winter solstice, then such a month is to be
ignored and counted as ?month zero?.We also have the lunar month theory which is well known and Ramadan the month that is the 9th lunar cycle. Again some good argument and points made by people defending this theory, please keep it up.
For us to be progressive and find the truth we need such research and debating forums. We must remain patient and be civil, and present theories and views in this manner and let the reader decide which is more logical.May God lead us in the right path.
Peace
Hope
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Peace Hope4,
I been reading the debate about summer solstice theory by Ayman. Very logical arguments so thank you for your research Ayman and may it continue.
I been reading the theory of the winter solstice by Layth in 'The Natural Republic'. Again very logical arguments so thank you Layth for your research may it continue.Sometime ago, I summerized the various points of view on this issue here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg177608#msg177608
I think that those who experience confusion might be taking info too fast and not seeing how everything is connected in the big picture.
If you notice, those who promote the traditional timing are the same folks who promote Mecca and its pagan shrines and rituals. Those folks have the bigger issue of the only unforgivable sin of idolatry to worry about and timing should not be the highest priority issue for them anyway.
Unlike the traditional understanding in which everything is disconnected, so that for example the arbitrary timing has nothing special to do with the mindless pagan rituals that they call Hajj, the proper understanding connects all those issues.
Peace,
Ayman
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I think that those who experience confusion might be taking info too fast and not seeing how everything is connected in the big picture.
Peace Ayman
I think you hit the nail on its head when you said people might be taking info too fast! I think people should digest the information given, do their own research and then make a logical decision.
Peace
Hope
