Hot/"ramadan" Answer
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Peace Brothers and Sisters
I have been reading this thread for a while now. I see a debate going on but its going in circles. I also sense that many are not ready to research and accept research on face value when it comes to religion and see that its not the end to anything, its a theory at the end and if its logical good, if its not then you say thanks for your efforts.
I been reading the debate about summer solstice theory by Ayman. Very logical arguments so thank you for your research Ayman and may it continue.
I been reading the theory of the winter solstice by Layth in 'The Natural Republic'. Again very logical arguments so thank you Layth for your research may it continue. Just incase you are not familiar with TNR here is a summaryThe calendar of God is one that exists in nature and
which utilizes the entities of sun, moon and star to make a
perfect timing mechanism that is in-line with nature and
in-harmony with our movements through the universe.? The year according to the Scripture is 365 days
(1247, 1712);
? The calendar system for the year is luni-solar
(1712, 105);
? The most special event that occurs during the
year is the Night of Decree (974) which occurs
on the winter solstice.
? The count of the months begins with the full
moon (2189, 3639).
? The month of the winter solstice is known as
the month of ?Ramadhan? (2185).
? The month of Ramadhan is ?Month-1? in the
Islamic calendar;
? Three months of Pilgrimage follow the month of
Ramadhan?all four months are restricted from
hunting any game, while domestic animals and the
catch of the sea are lawful (92-5, 2217, 51, 596);
? After a count of 12 lunar months, if a 13th full
moon appears a full 30 days before the next
winter solstice, then such a month is to be
ignored and counted as ?month zero?.We also have the lunar month theory which is well known and Ramadan the month that is the 9th lunar cycle. Again some good argument and points made by people defending this theory, please keep it up.
For us to be progressive and find the truth we need such research and debating forums. We must remain patient and be civil, and present theories and views in this manner and let the reader decide which is more logical.May God lead us in the right path.
Peace
Hope
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Peace Hope4,
I been reading the debate about summer solstice theory by Ayman. Very logical arguments so thank you for your research Ayman and may it continue.
I been reading the theory of the winter solstice by Layth in 'The Natural Republic'. Again very logical arguments so thank you Layth for your research may it continue.Sometime ago, I summerized the various points of view on this issue here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg177608#msg177608
I think that those who experience confusion might be taking info too fast and not seeing how everything is connected in the big picture.
If you notice, those who promote the traditional timing are the same folks who promote Mecca and its pagan shrines and rituals. Those folks have the bigger issue of the only unforgivable sin of idolatry to worry about and timing should not be the highest priority issue for them anyway.
Unlike the traditional understanding in which everything is disconnected, so that for example the arbitrary timing has nothing special to do with the mindless pagan rituals that they call Hajj, the proper understanding connects all those issues.
Peace,
Ayman
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I think that those who experience confusion might be taking info too fast and not seeing how everything is connected in the big picture.
Peace Ayman
I think you hit the nail on its head when you said people might be taking info too fast! I think people should digest the information given, do their own research and then make a logical decision.
Peace
Hope
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I just spent ages reading and scratching my head trying to get to the bottom of this ramadan scorching heat business. I am now very confused. I was looking forward to Ramadan starting on the night of 20th Aug 2009 (there's a full moon pic on my calendar but it's an american/jewish calendar (another story!), and I'm in Europe, to add to the confusion!?!)
So... How long is the fast? I'm hearing 30 days, I'm reading 10 days. I'm reading full moon to the crescent (10 days) but a month is 30 days, Solar month (August) is 31 days, Lunar month is 28 days? Also then I'm reading here that with there being 4 resticted months or 4 restricted moons, I'm now worried it might be 4 months of fasting, but I must have read it wrong (I'm a bit confused about the numbers in the words eg 7aj and 7ajj what does this mean please?)So maybe in 2189 which is telling us about the back doors and the front doors and to not beat around the bush, it means to just do the fast and get it over with instead of worrying about the tiny details... maybe it means anytime you see the full moon you should fast in that month. Cos I know sometimes I notice the full moon, I just HAPPEN to see it. But I'm not usually looking for it. And more often than not, the full moon comes and goes without me seeing it. Then again, I don't get out much.
Ok I better not conjecture any further, that is indeed wrong, better get back to using my mind, heart, brain, eyes and ears and work out what I'm going to do about Ramadan this year! Insh'Allah next time I pray, as always, I will ask Allah to guide me aright and keep me off the wrong path, and surely if my intention is to fast purely for the sake of Allah even if I do not know whether it is for 10 days, 28 days, 30 days or 4 months, then better I do some rather than none.
Peace, salaams and best wishes x
Ramadan (for me at least) starts on August 21st. Dont let people confuse you - the fast lasts for 1 full lunar month.
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So maybe in 2189 which is telling us about the back doors and the front doors and to not beat around the bush, it means to just do the fast and get it over with instead of worrying about the tiny details... maybe it means anytime you see the full moon you should fast in that month. Cos I know sometimes I notice the full moon, I just HAPPEN to see it. But I'm not usually looking for it. And more often than not, the full moon comes and goes without me seeing it. Then again, I don't get out much.
Peace, salaams and best wishes xSalaam UmAlawi
You are right those who try to make a big thing out of small language understanding are trying to create confusion in a system which was established by the last prophet Mohammad for the whole world. No matter how divided people are they unite in fasting in the same lunar month and it has not been changed but just been given a year number by the Khalifa Umar who was no dictator but worked with the aid of people who were alive at the time of prophet Mohammad.
The introduction of corrupted ahadith can not provide an excuse to dismantle this most natural system where you would experience fasting in all seasons and comes back to the position it had in relation to the solar year approximately every 33 luner years. Thus the system synchronize back to the first event which took place in summer; the night of power Surah 97. Power, Fate
- We have indeed revealed this (Message) in the Night of Power
Now look at the system advocated by Layth and Ayman who think they can understand the Qur?an with the help of a classic dictionary better then the prophet. confused
4413 How is it that now they remember, while a clarifying messenger had come to them?hmm
Imagine a system where blind people are not expected to fast in this blessed period the discriminatory system designed for those with vision ????
Imagine a system where there is no fasting if the sky is covered by the clouds so no sighting of the full moon thus no fasting ????
Imagine a system where "the new prophets" working out a Solstice full moon without the aid of man made system rotfl
(As pointed out by guest here Quote from guest on August 15, 2009, 064400 PM)Those who are genuinely interested in problem solving do not ignore vital points raised unless they have their own agenda. !
Make the most of Ramdan which is a blessed month for the whole mankind. peace
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Salam,
Exactly! a regional based system depending on the full moon sighting yay
Londoner are likely to miss out as its mostly cloudy here eatWho said about sighting only? Is it the same as sighting new moon just like tradisionalist do? If they cannot see the new moon why they can decide starting month (although with some difference in different region/sect) but can not decide if using full moon as marker? WHY?
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Salam,
Who said about sighting only? Is it the same as sighting new moon just like tradisionalist do?
Salaam arista
For detailed explanation please read this thread, especially last year?s (200 post. This long thread has all the answers and stubbourness of the "new" prophets .If they cannot see the new moon why they can decide starting month (although with some difference in different region/sect) but can not decide if using full moon as marker? WHY?
Full moon which lasts for few seconds confused
peace -
Salam,
Salaam arista
For detailed explanation please read this thread, especially last year?s (200 post. This long thread has all the answers and stubbourness of the "new" prophets . Full moon which lasts for few seconds confused
peaceNew moon also lasts for few seconds... confused peace
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Salam,
New moon also lasts for few seconds... confused peace
Of course so what's the difference, why claim that full moon is easy to spot hmm
And only those who sight it should fast which could include a toddlers spoting the full moon. rotfl
You must read this thread to fully appreciate the jokes
peace -
But Ayman, you still havent come to a conclution. It seems you are still only conjecturing and trying to find a way to prove your therom. I dont see what the big deal is on this one anyway... They say Ramadan start on the 21st ( my b-day D). So when do you say it start? All you do is write all this conjecture and baseless stuff, and then tell us to find the conclution or whatever..... peace
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Peace brothers and sisters
I hope that people in UK are watching the Debate on Moon sighting on Islamic channel. It seems they are all over the place on which day to start the fast. It seems like the birth of the new moon is the most difficult thing to sight. A logical argument is that why dont we use mathematical calculations to take over the sighting my eye. Seems logical but the panel is very split on this. Its very confusing and I am not sure that all sunni's are clear or able to agree on a start date. Mathematical calculations show that it is not possible to view the birth of the moon on Thursday or Friday night as the sun will obscure the view. There is a small window to sight it on Saturday, so fasting could start on saturday or sunday and I bet not all muslims will start on the same day, as a result eid wont be on the same day, how confusing is that. I really don't think the Umma is united which is a shame. I say this because If I start fasting according to my local mosque on saturday some of my friends might start earlier or later so we wont be able to celebrate Eid together. I remember a while back I sent a friend of mine a text to say Eid mubarak and he said eid is tomorrow, makes me feel if I followed the wrong advice. Oh well the debate goes on and unity goes begin.
Peace
Hope
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Salaam Aleykum!
I am in Germany and this link
http//www.toytowngermany.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=146057
is showing that Thursday is forecast to be the hottest day. AND there is a symbol on my calendar on Thursday for Full Moon.
Coincidence?
o)
Peace
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Salam,
Of course so what's the difference, why claim that full moon is easy to spot hmm
And only those who sight it should fast which could include a toddlers spoting the full moon. rotfl
You must read this thread to fully appreciate the jokes
peaceCan you answer these questions ?
- When the authorities decide start month using new moon can you verify it by yourself?
- When the authorities decide start month using full moon can you verify it by yourself?
I have read this thread and I think you are the one who miss the big picture.... Remember, some of tradisionalist insist that they MUST SPOT THE NEW MOON BEFORE BEGIN THE MONTH... and just like hope4 wrote.... "the Debate on Moon sighting".. Use your reason, can the conclusion of this debate minimize if we are using Full Moon instead of New Moon?
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Britain's Muslim communities are preparing to start the holy month of Ramadan on different days because opinions are divided about the sighting of the new moon.
About half the country's Muslims will begin fasting on Friday morning, while the other half will delay the start until Saturday.
It is a similar story across the Muslim world, despite efforts each year to reach agreement.
The start of Ramadan begins when the new moon is sighted, according to Islamic texts from the age of the Prophet Mohammed.
Modern astronomy can calculate it more precisely and says the new moon arrives on Thursday evening.
Clerics in Birmingham are among those who have declared they will observe the astronomical times and fast from dawn on Friday.
But many other British Muslims will wait for the first physical sighting in Saudi Arabia to be relayed to London.
Overcast skies could delay this happening until Friday night, which means fasting will not start until Saturday.
http//news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1657246.stmhttp//www.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/time/moon/
I am trying to imagine how someone can possibly witness or even see the new moon. It looks like no moon to me.
Peace
Hope -
Britain's Muslim communities are preparing to start the holy month of Ramadan on different days because opinions are divided about the sighting of the new moon.
About half the country's Muslims will begin fasting on Friday morning, while the other half will delay the start until Saturday.
It is a similar story across the Muslim world, despite efforts each year to reach agreement.
The start of Ramadan begins when the new moon is sighted, according to Islamic texts from the age of the Prophet Mohammed.
Modern astronomy can calculate it more precisely and says the new moon arrives on Thursday evening.
Clerics in Birmingham are among those who have declared they will observe the astronomical times and fast from dawn on Friday.
But many other British Muslims will wait for the first physical sighting in Saudi Arabia to be relayed to London.
Overcast skies could delay this happening until Friday night, which means fasting will not start until Saturday.
http//news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1657246.stmhttp//www.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/time/moon/
I am trying to imagine how someone can possibly witness or even see the new moon. It looks like no moon to me.
Peace
HopeInteresting. So when will you begin?
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More info on the rising and setting of the moon phases
rising, setting & phases
q At what time of day or night does the moon rise in each of it's phases?
a The new moon rises and sets together with the Sun. During a lunation of 29.5 days, as the Moon passes through a full cycle of phases, it rises roughly 50 minutes later each night. By first quarter it rises around midday and sets around midnight. When it reaches full it will be up from sunset to sunrise, more or less. And by last quarter it will rise at midnight and set at noon, roughly speaking, before, as it approaches another new moon, its rising and setting times converge again with those of the Sun.
http//www.inconstantmoon.com/qna_move.htm
It would appear from this information that the full moon stays in the sky the longest , thus the most visible phase of the moon.
Peace
Hope
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Peace Guest,
Two quotes from Ayman
?In conclusion, we can see that The God gave us a clear marker for the restriction month. This clear marker is independent from any man-made calendar system and instead relies on easily witnessed cosmic phenomena.?
?You already missed the scorching full-moon (?shahr ramadhan?) for this year. The night of the scorching full-moon for 2009 was July 6. Therefore, the fast started on July 7 for 10 days and so the last day of fasting was July 16.
For next year, the scorching full-moon will be on June 25, 2010. Therefore, the first day of the fast will be June 26 for 10 days and so the last day will be July 5.?
Contradiction, contradiction, contradiction, ???????
First he says that his timing system is independent of manmade calendar/timing system. Then he uses the very manmade calendar to forecast the occurrence of so called next scorching full-moon i.e. June 25, 2010. Any (his) visual based system is incapable of predicting future events. He is also using the manmade calendar to predict summer solstice (June 21-22) and the occurrence of full-moon.Wow! You found a major contradiction in my understanding & . I guess I can forget about trying to find the timing according to the great reading and I should just follow the timing ordained by Umar, the rightly guided companion of the prophet. I will go back to be Sunni again because as Farida said I can't understand the Quran better than the prophet whose understanding she gets from the holy Sunna and Tafsir of Ibn Kathir. But wait, it's a miracle, o here are the exact dates without using any human calendar
This year the night of the fast was The night of the first full-moon after the summer solstice
Next year the night of the fast will be The night of the first full-moon after the summer solstice
The year after the night of the fast will be The night of the first full-moon after the summer solstice
Etc. Etc. Etc.There. People can know exactly when to start fasting with no manmade months names and no arbitrary months order and no dependencies on when the calendar was made to start by some guy.
But he forbids the use same (modern) calendar/timing system to predict the occurrence new moon. This is hypocrisy at its worst.
Now your turn. You or any of the other thinly disguised Sunnis hypocritically pretending to follow the great reading
Please give the timing of the start of the fast with no manmade months names and no arbitrary months order and no dependencies on when the calendar was made to start by some "rightly guided" guy.
WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT AND WHETHER I FORBID IT OR NOT, YOU CAN'T AND YOU WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO DO IT PERIOD. jedi
Until you can do this, you will be ignored as anyone constantly babbling silliness should be.
Peace,
Ayman