Bakkah
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QS statement 1 You admitted that Mecca exists on the surface of the Earth.
QS statement 2 It means Quran is not Vague as you are claiming.Statement 1 is not necessarily related to statement 2. Please establish the connection first before drawing a conclusion.
And you did not answer my question, which I will re-quote
When Al Quran claims it is "Tibyaanan likulli shaian" and "Kitaabun mufassalun" (according to you), what is it with regard to?My question is relatively simple, yet you avoid it. If you do not answer, I will assume you have no answer.
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On the other hand, the common noun "hajj" has nothing to do with the above and was first used by the people of the book to mean "feast". Please see the following discussion on this matter
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597976.0
So essentially, like Christians who continued their pagan traditions under new Christianized names such as Christmas, Muslims too continued their pagan traditions by borrowing common nouns from the great reading to name their pagan idols and rituals.
Ayman, I agree with you on the last statement, and it is actually not a big deal..
For every nations/people (arabicUmmat) We have appointed them rites (arabicmansakh) which they shall perform.
Do not dispute with them concerning the matter. Instead invite them to your Lord; surely, you are upon a Straight Path.
If they argue with you, say 'God knows best all that you do.
On the Day of Resurrection, God will judge between you concerning that in which you vary.
-- Quran, Al-Hajj, 67-69Perhaps; Muhammad is following the verse shown above. Instead of 'abolishing' the arab pagan/native practices, he just changes the meanings of it. Thus no longer pay homage to idols housed within cubicle structure in mecca but pay homage to the one true God, but still in mecca. The christians also does the same thing in europe, rather abolishing the pagan practices, they just changes the meanings of it..
The arabs can continue their rites in mekka, just like the jews in jerusalem, the japanese in mt fuji, the indians in himalayas/gangga river and so forth.. Thus it is said Hajj / thanks giving feast to God is within months well known by each people.. (although it is not necessarily the same time and place for every people).
Do not dispute with them concerning the rites, but invite them to the one true God, The Maintainer Of All Universes.
Salam / Peace
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Works for me.
Ayman, I agree with you on the last statement, and it is actually not a big deal..
For every nations/people (arabicUmmat) We have appointed them rites (arabicmansakh) which they shall perform.
Do not dispute with them concerning the matter. Instead invite them to your Lord; surely, you are upon a Straight Path.
If they argue with you, say 'God knows best all that you do.
On the Day of Resurrection, God will judge between you concerning that in which you vary.
-- Quran, Al-Hajj, 67-69Perhaps; Muhammad is following the verse shown above. Instead of 'abolishing' the arab pagan/native practices, he just changes the meanings of it. Thus no longer pay homage to idols housed within cubicle structure in mecca but pay homage to the one true God, but still in mecca. The christians also does the same thing in europe, rather abolishing the pagan practices, they just changes the meanings of it..
The arabs can continue their rites in mekka, just like the jews in jerusalem, the japanese in mt fuji, the indians in himalayas/gangga river and so forth.. Thus it is said Hajj / thanks giving feast to God is within months well known by each people.. (although it is not necessarily the same time and place for every people).
Do not dispute with them concerning the rites, but invite them to the one true God, The Maintainer Of All Universes.
Salam / Peace
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Peace Jafar,
Ayman, I agree with you on the last statement, and it is actually not a big deal..
For every nations/people (arabicUmmat) We have appointed them rites (arabicmansakh) which they shall perform.
Do not dispute with them concerning the matter. Instead invite them to your Lord; surely, you are upon a Straight Path.
If they argue with you, say 'God knows best all that you do.
On the Day of Resurrection, God will judge between you concerning that in which you vary.
-- Quran, Al-Hajj, 67-69
Perhaps; Muhammad is following the verse shown above. Instead of 'abolishing' the arab pagan/native practices, he just changes the meanings of it. Thus no longer pay homage to idols housed within cubicle structure in mecca but pay homage to the one true God, but still in mecca. The christians also does the same thing in europe, rather abolishing the pagan practices, they just changes the meanings of it..
The arabs can continue their rites in mekka, just like the jews in jerusalem, the japanese in mt fuji, the indians in himalayas/gangga river and so forth.. Thus it is said Hajj / thanks giving feast to God is within months well known by each people.. (although it is not necessarily the same time and place for every people).
Do not dispute with them concerning the rites, but invite them to the one true God, The Maintainer Of All Universes.I think you got it the other way around. The pagan Arabs couldn't change the great reading to justify their pagan practices so they hijacked terms from the great reading and used them to describe their pagan practices. This is what I am pointing out so that people don't get fooled. If someone as knoweldgeable and enlightened as you can be fooled into saying something such as "still in Mecca" then we really need to show people the truth. The word "mecca"/destruction is precisely such word that has been hijacked and turned into the name of a town but it is clearly used as a common noun in the great reading. Here is the Yusufali translation
- And it is He Who has restrained their hands from you and your hands from them in the midst of Mecca after that He gave you the victory over them. And Allah sees well all that ye do.
Here is the translation of 4824 using Classical Arabic dictionaries and the context of war from the passage to translate the common description "mecca"
- And it is He Who has restrained their hands from you and your hands from them in the midst of destruction after that He gave you the victory over them. And Allah sees well all that ye do.
This is an amazing observation. Besides discrediting paganism, it means that we can be 100% sure that the great reading is the preserved word of the god. The pagans couldn't even insert one word or change it to name the location of the pagan shrine they established. They were forced to hijack a clear common noun.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Ayman,
The word "mecca"/destruction is precisely such word that has been hijacked and turned into the name of a town but it is clearly used as a common noun in the great reading. Here is the Yusufali translation
- And it is He Who has restrained their hands from you and your hands from them in the midst of Mecca after that He gave you the victory over them. And Allah sees well all that ye do.
Here is the translation of 4824 using Classical Arabic dictionaries and the context of war from the passage to translate the common description "mecca"
- And it is He Who has restrained their hands from you and your hands from them in the midst of destruction after that He gave you the victory over them. And Allah sees well all that ye do.
This is an amazing observation. Besides discrediting paganism, it means that we can be 100% sure that the great reading is the preserved word of the god. The pagans couldn't even insert one word or change it to name the location of the pagan shrine they established. They were forced to hijack a clear common noun.
This is a very good observation. The root of the common noun "mekka" actually means failure or destruction. So, it makes perfect sense if the passage in 4824 is speaking about impending failure rather than a physical location. It's saying that even in the midst of failure or defeat, Allah still gave his people the victory over the disbelievers... Very good observation. I'm definately going to look more into this. This is certainly an eye-opener, especially in terms of traditional Islaam...
bravo bravo bravo
Peace,
Ahmad
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How common was the word Mecca, though? It never occurs elsewhere as a word used for destruction.
That doesn't mean to say that validates it as a holy location. Might still be a pun and it certainly isn't a statement of reverence.
I hate to sound like Cook & Crone, but do any of the whiny Christian sources from the time of the conquest of Jerusalem mention from where those dread Saraceans hail?
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Peace Ayman,
This is a very good observation. The root of the common noun "mekka" actually means failure or destruction. bravo bravo bravo
Peace,
Ahmad
Peace Brother
You and Ayman are trying to BEFOOL the readers .
1Bring out the PRoof for that word MECCA ( ) 's Root meaning is "DESTRUCTION". (Do not quote to me PRL ,Only Classical Arabic dicitionaries please)
2Secondly Mecca has been used in the Quran as a Proper Noun as Ibrahim ,Fir3oun" Ramadhan' etc.It cannot be translated.
Both of you need to provide the Evidence for your assertion.
If you think that Meem,Kaaf ,Kaaf are the root letters then its basic meanings are- ( 5 / 274)
(ك
To extract the bone marrow from the bone
Where does it come the "destruction"???
Please Provide ther proof in the same way as I have done.Please do not try to set an example "the blind follow the blind". We should use our own research and common sense also.
Regards
- ( 5 / 274)
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Peace Cushan,
How common was the word Mecca, though? It never occurs elsewhere as a word used for destruction.
There are many words in the great reading that only occur once. Its common meaning was still known at the time Classical Arabic dictionaries were developed. Its of the form "F3LH" like words such as "NKBH"/disaster.
That doesn't mean to say that validates it as a holy location. Might still be a pun and it certainly isn't a statement of reverence.
It has nothing to do with any location, holy or otherwise.
I hate to sound like Cook & Crone, but do any of the whiny Christian sources from the time of the conquest of Jerusalem mention from where those dread Saraceans hail?
I recommend reading Hoyland's book "Seeing Islam as Others Saw it". In there the Romans complain that they were invaded by a coalition of Jews, heretic Christians, and a group called Muhagareye (probably Muhajireen). There is never any mention of Muslims. They say that the invaders came from the region of Hira in Northwestern Arabia.
There is more. The Romans also give dates that conflict with the traditional dates. They say that this new kingdom was formed and started attacking the Roman empire borders when Heraclius, king of the Romans, was in his eleventh year (this translates to 620-21CE). This is over ten years prior to the traditional dating of the beginning of Islamic raids on the Romans. According to traditions, at that time the prophet hasn't even emigrated yet!
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace everyone,
Here is the Classical Arabic meaning of the common noun "mecca"
( ط
.
From the Mohit Classical Arabic dictionary, one can see that "mecca" can have the following meanings
- Sucking everything out
- Destroy and wear down
Thus, the dictionary author no doubt bewildered by why anyone would give any town such an unflattering name, speculates that the town named Mecca was called so because it wears down sins or because it destroys those who do injustice.
The common meaning fits perfectly with the context of a war and standoff in 4824.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace to all,
Here's the PRL for the word "makka" (or mecca)
= Miim-Kaf-Kaf = Sucking, Sucking up, Absorbing, drinking up, Destruction/Destroying, diminishing, diminution/failing; failure, to cast, to throw away, to discard, to straighten/tighten or impede/restrict, to beseech/ask/accept, crowding, competition (izdihaam).
makkah n.f. 4824
Peace,
Ahmad
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QS,
Does The Quran tell us how to brush our teeth? If you answer no, can I then say this is strange for a book that calls itself "Tibyaanan likulli shaian" and "Kitaabun mufassalun"? Of course, any person capable of using their logic will know The Quran saying it is clear or distinguishing/detailed means almost nothing unless we know with regard to what. Once we know with regard to what, then we can contemplate on your point to see if it has any relevance. So tell us QS, if The Quran says it is "Tibyaanan likulli shaian" and "Kitaabun mufassalun", what is it with regard to?
In which verse does "tibyaanan likulli shaian" appear?
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Peace
I just thought I'd share with you this link to a Quran Reader I have been using in case you don't already know about it. I think it is really useful because you can see all the different translations of The Holy Qur'an in English by 3 different translators (Yusuf Ali, Picktal and M.Asad) By the way, I personally prefer to use the M.Asad one because I have the Hard Back Book version of it at home and I am impressed by the way he has done the translations/interpretations, for example he tries to give the most logical explaination and also gives his reasons as to why he used that particular word or phrase. He also mentions whether the "ayat"/verse could be meant literally and/or allegorically. It's also ver useful because it has a search function. Here is the link to the Quran reader on Islamicity http//www.islamicity.com/QuranSearch/
Also, don't start shouting, I also got the QT.exe of submission.org http//submission.org/quran/ which is a useful little program where you can jump very quickly to whichever Chapter/Sura just so you can see which words are being translated as what. AND it is quite clever because you can toggle the order of the Suras (Chapters) to see which order they were revealed in (according to the person who made it do that ofcourse!) To be honest I find this version a little "blunter" than the Asad one, although sometimes more to the point/ less flowery(?). So I like to use it just to get as much input to process as possible.
Ok that's my contribution
Peace
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If you look for the meaning of the word "hajj" as used by the people of the book, you will see that it means "feast" and it was used to denote the annual harvest feast. This is why when you read the great reading you find that 90% of the passages about "hajj" have to do with livestock and eating and offering free food.
Sounds much more feasible than to save money your whole life to fly to Mecca (which many not-so-rich people in my country had done and are still doing, i'm afraid).
Local feasts would be of much more benefit to our society--instead of funding Arab's gov for new architectures and stuff.
Peace.
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Sounds much more feasible than to save money your whole life to fly to Mecca (which many not-so-rich people in my country had done and are still doing, i'm afraid).
Local feasts would be of much more benefit to our society--instead of funding Arab's gov for new architectures and stuff.
Peace.
I agree.
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I downloaded a movie made by National Geographic about Hajj. Part of me would like to go, just to see the sites. But there was a lot of depressing reality in the documentary too. I don't see anything religiously fulfilling about it. And the expense and the danger would be considered ridiculous if you removed it from the 'religious' context.
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I downloaded a movie made by National Geographic about Hajj. Part of me would like to go, just to see the sites. But there was a lot of depressing reality in the documentary too. I don't see anything religiously fulfilling about it. And the expense and the danger would be considered ridiculous if you removed it from the 'religious' context.
Cushan, can you give us a link? I think it was on TV sometimes ago (i wasn't too interested) but i'd like to have a copy... Thanks peace
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I used a torrent from Islamic Torrents. Download a free program for torrents, either uTorrent or Vuze, then go to Islamic Torrents or ISOhunt and search Hajj. It's a good documentary. It follows an American woman, an African man and a Malaysian man on Hajj.
