The question at which we inevitably arrive
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Talk about experience, my experience is that when you are gullible you lose faith, and when you are not gullible, you gain faith.
Nobody from outside is going to show you that God exists. You realise it or you don't. In order to realise you must let loose of gullibility and open you heart and mind, nd no hurry. Things will show themselves for what they are. Everything is there, you do not need to look for proofs. It is there. If you are a saint you will prefer justice an truth to your own life, why? because they are true, and they are divine attributes. Who is going to proof Justice or truth to You? You know them by yourself or you don't.
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You may not have intended to make absolute statements, but you did. If you are speaking generally, or what happens most of the time, then well, that just doesn't sound as strong does it. People tend to make absolute statements when to say otherwise, i.e. accurately, would weaken their position.
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I believe you are confusing translations/awful interpretations of the quran with what the quran, itself, says.
This is the traditional understanding that you are against.
In response to the video
Where is 'jew' in 265?
560 - good job in ignoring context. Read the next verse .
7163-66, again where is jew here?
Whether it's talking about Jews or another group of people isn't really the point. It doesn't negate the sheer ridiculousness of the entire story.
Talk about experience, my experience is that when you are gullible you lose faith, and when you are not gullible, you gain faith.
That's a gross oversimplification. Examples?
Nobody from outside is going to show you that God exists. You realise it or you don't. In order to realise you must let loose of gullibility and open you heart and mind, nd no hurry. Things will show themselves for what they are. Everything is there, you do not need to look for proofs. It is there. If you are a saint you will prefer justice an truth to your own life, why? because they are true, and they are divine attributes. Who is going to proof Justice or truth to You? You know them by yourself or you don't.
An eternity of hell or heaven is contingent upon whether I realize it or I don't? Seems pretty ridiculous, especially when you consider the gamut of personalities, thought processes, and experiences that help shape your stance on the subject to a large extent. Justice and truth are concepts, not entities. Big difference.
You may not have intended to make absolute statements, but you did. If you are speaking generally, or what happens most of the time, then well, that just doesn't sound as strong does it. People tend to make absolute statements when to say otherwise, i.e. accurately, would weaken their position.
Frankly, I think you're making a detour from my main point. If you'd like to provide examples that support your position, I'm more than willing to read them.
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I've been a Muslim my entire life, but I'd be lying if I said Islam and religion, in general, made perfect sense. I could ask a million questions that have not been answered sufficiently by religion, but I don't think that that would lead to anything useful. Instead, I'll ask the final question to which we are eventually led.
No matter how you cut it, because real evidence of God doesn't exist, we are told to "believe" and have "faith" that God exists and that religion is true. This doesn't sit well with me and many others and I'll tell you why. This entire life on earth, we are taught by experience that accepting something as true without convincing evidence is often times detrimental. There's a reason that "fool" and "gullible" have a negative connotation. Whether you're being scammed by Nigerians, kidnapped by strangers, or tricked into believing something else for someone's gain, belief by mere "faith" does not prove to be fruitfull in this life. Btw, my goal is not say that believing in God makes you a fool, I'm simply giving extreme examples of the negative experiences that stem from faith without convincing evidence. Now, the question is, if indeed God has planted us here and asked us to believe without real evidence, why would we have to ignore a lifetime's worth of experiences that tell us that faith without evidence simply isn't sufficient?
Peace,
Respectfully.I have living proof that The Exalted God That hears ALL and Sees ALL, really exists.
Myself.
Sometimes i think about something really, really wrong and plain stupid and i receive a warning.
I have prayed to The Exalted God The MOST merciful for things and even people and received answers.
I've been homeless since February this year and i guarantee you that i have never been hungry, thirsty, dirty, sleepless or scared, keep in mind that i live in one of the most dangerous cities in the world.People around me are sick (swine flu or whatever else), greedy and want more (rich businessmen), dangerous (underage kids have been stabbing each other lately here for gang memberships!!!!!) but none of those things affected me.
I have found money on the sidewalks, food, i'm able to stay clean and three weeks ago i got a new job, Thank God. I'm always grateful to God that i can pray openly, publicly with a normal voice according to ....
17110 Say ?Call on God or call on the Almighty; by whichever you call on, to Him are the best names.? And do not be too loud in making your bond, nor too quiet; but seek a path in between.
....and when police cars drive by, they always and only search sunnis and wahabis that sit in the same park, meteres from me. But cops always and only check up on the sunnis because they're sitting and tlaking and not wearing hoods but they have beards.
I wear a hood, pray in the park and have no beard. But i don't get searched by a cop.
Strange?
No.
It's called a blessing from The Exalted God The MOST Merciful.I've received several threats from various people in London and Liecestershire and yet i'm still alive and smiling. I don't fear mere men.
Always glorify God and be grateful to Him, God always makes sure that True believers get the BEST protection, even though God helps ALL humans, i've seen it. I see every day how God gives and gives and gives and gives and gives and gives and gives and gives and gives into forever to people who don't pray because they're focused on sheesha along with their women who wear a little too much make up, more then non sunni women, non Muslim women and of coruse they also have huge bellies which apparently can take more food then you think, they drive the BEST cars, have minimum of three children, their wives are covered head-to-toe while the husbands wear T-shirts and smoke or drink COCA COLA and support Israel and at the same time they also support Palestine and Hamas.
God has Mercy.
Seek God and He will answer.
By the way, welcome to the forum and may God give you all the best.
Peace. -
In what instances does faith without evidence lead to a positive result?
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Peace,
Respectfully.I have living proof that The Exalted God That hears ALL and Sees ALL, really exists.
Myself.
Sometimes i think about something really, really wrong and plain stupid and i receive a warning.
I have prayed to The Exalted God The MOST merciful for things and even people and received answers.
I've been homeless since February this year and i guarantee you that i have never been hungry, thirsty, dirty, sleepless or scared, keep in mind that i live in one of the most dangerous cities in the world.People around me are sick (swine flu or whatever else), greedy and want more (rich businessmen), dangerous (underage kids have been stabbing each other lately here for gang memberships!!!!!) but none of those things affected me.
I have found money on the sidewalks, food, i'm able to stay clean and three weeks ago i got a new job, Thank God. I'm always grateful to God that i can pray openly, publicly with a normal voice according to ....
17110 Say ?Call on God or call on the Almighty; by whichever you call on, to Him are the best names.? And do not be too loud in making your bond, nor too quiet; but seek a path in between.
....and when police cars drive by, they always and only search sunnis and wahabis that sit in the same park, meteres from me. But cops always and only check up on the sunnis because they're sitting and tlaking and not wearing hoods but they have beards.
I wear a hood, pray in the park and have no beard. But i don't get searched by a cop.
Strange?
No.
It's called a blessing from The Exalted God The MOST Merciful.I've received several threats from various people in London and Liecestershire and yet i'm still alive and smiling. I don't fear mere men.
Always glorify God and be grateful to Him, God always makes sure that True believers get the BEST protection, even though God helps ALL humans, i've seen it. I see every day how God gives and gives and gives and gives and gives and gives and gives and gives and gives into forever to people who don't pray because they're focused on sheesha along with their women who wear a little too much make up, more then non sunni women, non Muslim women and of coruse they also have huge bellies which apparently can take more food then you think, they drive the BEST cars, have minimum of three children, their wives are covered head-to-toe while the husbands wear T-shirts and smoke or drink COCA COLA and support Israel and at the same time they also support Palestine and Hamas.
God has Mercy.
Seek God and He will answer.
By the way, welcome to the forum and may God give you all the best.
Peace.That's great, and I wish you the best. However, none of the things you mentioned is evidence that God exists or that he's somehow intervening in your life. Peace of mind isn't evidence, neither are blessings, hardships, or random events because they happen to believers, nonbelievers, bad people, good people, etc. The best we can hope for is that God created the universe and does not intervene in our lives; otherwise, the injustice would be too great.
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In what instances does faith without evidence lead to a positive result?
Erm, how long have you got?
I will give you an example from today. I work in a clinical environment, requiring patients to book appointments, most of which I have never met before. They book an appointment, I have faith/trust they will turn up, not based on anything other than their word, and when they do it has a positive outcome as I usually resolve their problem and am able to make a living out of it.
Hmm, the above example sounds suspiciously similar to another example I know of when someone has given their word, and if I fulfil my end of the deal, will lead to a positive result. Can you hazard a guess as to which example I am alluding to? ;D
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Erm, how long have you got?
I will give you an example from today. I work in a clinical environment, requiring patients to book appointments, most of which I have never met before. They book an appointment, I have faith/trust they will turn up, not based on anything other than their word, and when they do it has a positive outcome as I usually resolve their problem and am able to make a living out of it.
The difference is you do have evidence that they'll show because there's a precedent. This is the same reason that storeowners believe that customers will give them money in exchange for their products rather than run out of the store with them. Of course, every once in a while, they'll encounter a thief, but the vast majority of the time, their faith will be confirmed. But that faith only exists because there's a system, a convention, and ultimately, evidence.
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NB AQ = al quran
I consider your citing of precedent as possibly spurious, as each person is different so there is no precedent for some, but nonetheless you have answered your own question
But that faith only exists because there's a system, a convention, and ultimately, evidence.
AQ is written for us, about us, to guide us. It is built to resonate with who we are and what we experience, and it says this many many times, signs are everywhere etc (see link I referenced). Couple this with AQ says God's sunna/way (or 'precedent' if you will) does not change. So, according to your view, there can only be three possibilities AQ is incorrect regarding this, you are incorrect regarding this, both AQ and you are incorrect regarding this.
What's the only way to test which is the correct or most likely?
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NB AQ = al quran
I consider your citing of precedent as possibly spurious, as each person is different so there is no precedent for some, but nonetheless you have answered your own question
It's only spurious if you don't believe in statistical probability. If there's a data set that indicates that your hypothesis (patients will show up) will be right 95% of the time, you'll accept it and have faith that they will, as long as you recognize that they won't show up 5% of the time. Conversely, if that data (anecdotal evidence prevents the same accuracy, but not the same conclusion) shows that patients only show up 10% of the time, you'd be a fool to have the same faith. However, if there was no data, you probably wouldn't be sure one way or another, and you'd probably have a lot of questions and consider many different things.
AQ is written for us, about us, to guide us. It is built to resonate with who we are and what we experience, and it says this many many times, signs are everywhere etc (see link I referenced). Couple this with AQ says God's sunna/way (or 'precedent' if you will) does not change. So, according to your view, there can only be three possibilities AQ is incorrect regarding this, you are incorrect regarding this, both AQ and you are incorrect regarding this.
Are you suggesting that the signs on that page, which would not nearly hold up to the standards of modern science, are enough to negate the question(s) I posed? I'm not against AQ nor Islam, but I find it discouraging that the more observant (or I guess you believe that the devil is seeping into my soul) I become, the less religion can answer.
What's the only way to test which is the correct or most likely?
I don't know. Is there a way?
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I have no data set, but I find your reply interesting as it implies I cannot use experience leading to faith/trust in my examples, the very stuff of science, i.e. repeatable observations leading to models/theories/formulas/etc.
Are you suggesting that the signs on that page, which would not nearly hold up to the standards of modern science, are enough to negate the question(s) I posed?
Who said anything about negating? I will re-quote for you So, according to your view, there can only be three possibilities AQ is incorrect regarding this, you are incorrect regarding this, both AQ and you are incorrect regarding this.
I'm not against AQ nor Islam, but I find it discouraging that the more observant (or I guess you believe that the devil is seeping into my soul) I become, the less religion can answer.
Religion answering something? That would be a first.
I don't know. Is there a way?
I think it's fairly obvious you have hardly read anything of AQ. One of its biggest concepts/themes is its internal verification mechanism/methodology.
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I have no data set, but I find your reply interesting as it implies I cannot use experience leading to faith/trust in my examples, the very stuff of science, i.e. repeatable observations leading to models/theories/formulas/etc.
Actually, I implied the opposite when I said, "anecdotal evidence prevents the same accuracy, but not the same conclusion." That is, anecdotal evidence (experience) can be used in place of data sets to form the same conclusion (faith that something will happen).
Who said anything about negating? I will re-quote for you So, according to your view, there can only be three possibilities AQ is incorrect regarding this, you are incorrect regarding this, both AQ and you are incorrect regarding this.
I thought that this referred to my contention in the original post. And in order for me to be incorrect regarding this, I'd have to be negated in some way, and I thought you mentioned that page because it is supposed to negate the original post. Maybe I misunderstood.
Religion answering something? That would be a first.
Really? Then let me rephrase that from "the less religion can answer" to "the bigger the leap of faith becomes."
I think it's fairly obvious you have hardly read anything of AQ. One of its biggest concepts/themes is its internal verification mechanism/methodology.
Can you elaborate?
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Thanks for clarifying about use of anecdotal evidence. I never made the link between the word "anecdotal" and my own experience, and thought of anecdotal as someone telling me something, rather than me telling myself.
I thought that this referred to my contention in the original post. And in order for me to be incorrect regarding this, I'd have to be negated in some way, and I thought you mentioned that page because it is supposed to negate the original post. Maybe I misunderstood.
No, you understood what I said. My point was what are the possible options/answers to the question you pose, then asking how one can test it.
Really? Then let me rephrase that from "the less religion can answer" to "the bigger the leap of faith becomes."
The problem of this statement is it is entirely based on your own experience, i.e. perhaps true for you but might not be true for others, e.g. some scientists, the more they study, the more they have come to believe in God etc. And yes, you can say the exact same thing for my statements, it is all upon the individual.
My point was AQ is against what is commonly thought of as religion, surprising as that may sound. You may have heard of the famous work of GA Parwez titled "Islam a challenge to religion" for example. I recommend it
http//www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/ICR/ICR.htm
Alternatively, just read AQ.Can you elaborate?
What I am saying is in many places it discusses how to verify it. I briefly discuss this here as examples
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596642.msg171098#msg171098
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596697.msg172785#msg172785How does one verify a guidance? If you buy a desk with assembly iinstructions, how does one verify the guidance received with the desk is correct/truthful?
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No matter how you cut it, because real evidence of God doesn't exist, we are told to "believe" and have "faith" that God exists
Welcome to the forum>.
Who is asking you to believe that "God exists"? This expresson, or even the word "existance" does not exist in the qur'aan. If God says (Nothing is like Him". How would He ask us to believe in His existance?
He states that He is the Lord of the universe and of the people. Period. He wants us to take it from there.
