Resolving apparent contradictions in the Quran
-
Peace Imraan,
If I have a one of a kind item that I sell to you. Once we have concluded the transaction, that item now belongs to you. How can I then loan it to you if I am no longer the owner?
There was no transaction; a godly loan is metaphor, not literal, a figure of speech and only to our benefit.
I'm not sure exactly what your reference to 191-4 is about in the context of what we are discussing.
You asked if God provides/answers prayers -- "...And I have never been unblest in my invocation to You, O my Lord!"
Do you then believe that God decides individually who will get what.
I believe so.
If so, do you believe this is decided ahead of time?As in the case of the generally held idea of "taqdeer"? I mean here that things are pre-destined.
I believe God is past present future -- like playing chess with God, your move is known and "at the same time" your move.
In the case of Zakariyyah, do you believe that it was by some miracle beyond the physical laws of the universe that he was granted a child?
Do we know the physical laws where the entire lenght/time slice of our demision is available to a higher-dimension?
http//www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/programs/ht/rv/3014_04.html
-
Peace Samia
Is this the only occurrence of the term in the quran?
Imraan
The word "3abd" occurs several times as you know, but with relation to God (plural 3ibaad), it's not "slave", except four times in this construction
Your Lord is never unjust to the "3abeed" (plural of 3abd/slave).
The word 3abd, not related to God, also comes in this verse2178
which I do not think is talking about humans but animals
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15944.msg156893#msg156893 -
Peace Abdullah
There was no transaction; a godly loan is metaphor, not literal, a figure of speech and only to our benefit.
Surely even in a metaphor the wording is important in conveying the intended message. Why use the word loan if you want to convey a concept that has no relation to it?
You asked if God provides/answers prayers -- "...And I have never been unblest in my invocation to You, O my Lord!"
I don't recall asking this question.
Quote
Do you then believe that God decides individually who will get what.I believe so.
Quote
If so, do you believe this is decided ahead of time?As in the case of the generally held idea of "taqdeer"? I mean here that things are pre-destined.I believe God is past present future -- like playing chess with God, your move is known and "at the same time" your move.
How can you be held accountable if this is the case? This makes no sense whatsoever. PLease give quranic evidence for this view.
Do we know the physical laws where the entire lenght/time slice of our demision is available to a higher-dimension?
http//www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/programs/ht/rv/3014_04.html
Let's leave this point for a little later in the discussion.
Imraan
-
Peace All
Has this thread died because my contentions cannot be refuted or because you guys find that they are not worth responding to ?
Either way, I'd like to know. I can then evaluate my stance & determine where my study of this issue should go.
Imraan
-
Peace Imraan,
If you are referring to 2/219 vs. 9/60...
Here's my explanation
In 2/219, we are to give the excess (this is general). The people we are to give it to are mentioned in 9/60.
Also, sadaqat is not used in 2/219.
Re 2/245 vs. 9/111
This is a non-issue; the wording a) is metaphorical, and b) where is rizq in 9/111??
Anything else I missed? This thread is kinda hard to follow...
-
Peace Imraan,
If you are referring to 2/219 vs. 9/60...
Here's my explanation
In 2/219, we are to give the excess (this is general). The people we are to give it to are mentioned in 9/60.
Also, sadaqat is not used in 2/219.
Re 2/245 vs. 9/111
This is a non-issue; the wording a) is metaphorical, and b) where is rizq in 9/111??
Anything else I missed? This thread is kinda hard to follow...
In your opinion is sadaqat voluntary or a compulsory duty?
What is the arabic equivalent of metaphorical in the quran?
How is rizq defined in the quran?
Forgive the response filled with questions, but I would just like to see what your stance is on these before we move forward discussing this.
Imraan
-
6141 is generally taken as to meaning that zaka is due on the day of harvest, although that word is not even in that verse - it say "haqq". Can someone give me a translation (their own) and an explanation/commentary?
Thanks
-
Peace progressive
6141 is generally taken as to meaning that zaka is due on the day of harvest, although that word is not even in that verse - it say "haqq". Can someone give me a translation (their own) and an explanation/commentary?
Thanks
You will find the same derivative of "haqq" in the following verses (1726, 303
Notice the connection between "haqq" & "sadaqa". Both roots have to do with the truth. Therefore there is some kind of relation between the words. In the sense of a payment they seem to be closely related too.
Also, the term zakat is not charity. Below is an excerpt from a talk at the recent Quran Conference held in South Africa
The misconceptions regarding sadaqaat & zakaat have lead to a misunderstanding of what our duties are regarding spending from our wealth and our selves. Let?s first look at the definitions of these terms. The first misconception is common to both terms. That is the fallacy that they mean charity. Charity is something that tends to create a feeling of superiority in the one who gives it and a feeling of inferiority in the one who receives it.
Sadaqaat has at its root the meaning of truth. A careful study of the concept clearly shows that it is the fulfilment of a right that is due, in other words recognition of the truth that those in need have a right over you. I would like to illustrate this with a few examples.
In (44), we find that the gift that is given to a woman upon marriage is described as saduqaat. Clearly this is not a charity. It is given as a fulfilment of her right to such a gift. Also we find in (128, when Yusuf?s brothers come to him in a time of need they say ?Give us that which will be a fulfilment of a right that is due to us for Alllah rewards those who cause the fulfilment of a right that is due.? This fits much better in relation to the consistency of the concept than saying ? Treat it as charity to us for Allah rewards the charitable?.
A study of the concept of zakaat in the Quran shows that there is no way that this could simply refer to an obligatory charity, whether it be 2.5% or any other amount for that matter. A key issue in understanding this is presented in (417) which shows us that one who rejects the aakhir cannot uphold the zakaat, whatever it is. Now surely someone who denies the aakhir is capable of giving 2.5% or even much more than that in charity. Zakaat is the fulfilment of opportunities to develop the nafs by causing the development of the community in every respect. It is also stated that if established in power, it is incumbent on such a group to arrange for the establishment of the salaah (which is itself a much broader concept than generally accepted) and the fulfilment of opportunities to develop the nafs of each member of the society through the development of the entire community in every respect and to constantly serve Allah (2173). It is clear that it is a function of the community or state through its leader to ensure that it provides this complete concept of zakaat to the community.
So the difference between sadaqaat & zakaat is this. Sadqaat stems from the individual in order to fulfil a right that is due to those who are needy. Zakaat stems from the community at large through its leaders to create an environment in which sadaqaat is no longer necessary.
Imraan
-
Peace progressive
You will find the same derivative of "haqq" in the following verses (1726, 303
Notice the connection between "haqq" & "sadaqa". Both roots have to do with the truth. Therefore there is some kind of relation between the words. In the sense of a payment they seem to be closely related too.
Also, the term zakat is not charity. Below is an excerpt from a talk at the recent Quran Conference held in South Africa
The misconceptions regarding sadaqaat & zakaat have lead to a misunderstanding of what our duties are regarding spending from our wealth and our selves. Let?s first look at the definitions of these terms. The first misconception is common to both terms. That is the fallacy that they mean charity. Charity is something that tends to create a feeling of superiority in the one who gives it and a feeling of inferiority in the one who receives it.
Sadaqaat has at its root the meaning of truth. A careful study of the concept clearly shows that it is the fulfilment of a right that is due, in other words recognition of the truth that those in need have a right over you. I would like to illustrate this with a few examples.
In (44), we find that the gift that is given to a woman upon marriage is described as saduqaat. Clearly this is not a charity. It is given as a fulfilment of her right to such a gift. Also we find in (128, when Yusuf?s brothers come to him in a time of need they say ?Give us that which will be a fulfilment of a right that is due to us for Alllah rewards those who cause the fulfilment of a right that is due.? This fits much better in relation to the consistency of the concept than saying ? Treat it as charity to us for Allah rewards the charitable?.
A study of the concept of zakaat in the Quran shows that there is no way that this could simply refer to an obligatory charity, whether it be 2.5% or any other amount for that matter. A key issue in understanding this is presented in (417) which shows us that one who rejects the aakhir cannot uphold the zakaat, whatever it is. Now surely someone who denies the aakhir is capable of giving 2.5% or even much more than that in charity. Zakaat is the fulfilment of opportunities to develop the nafs by causing the development of the community in every respect. It is also stated that if established in power, it is incumbent on such a group to arrange for the establishment of the salaah (which is itself a much broader concept than generally accepted) and the fulfilment of opportunities to develop the nafs of each member of the society through the development of the entire community in every respect and to constantly serve Allah (2173). It is clear that it is a function of the community or state through its leader to ensure that it provides this complete concept of zakaat to the community.
So the difference between sadaqaat & zakaat is this. Sadqaat stems from the individual in order to fulfil a right that is due to those who are needy. Zakaat stems from the community at large through its leaders to create an environment in which sadaqaat is no longer necessary.
Imraan
Hmmm it makes sinse peace
-
Peace progressive
You will find the same derivative of "haqq" in the following verses (1726, 303
Notice the connection between "haqq" & "sadaqa". Both roots have to do with the truth. Therefore there is some kind of relation between the words. In the sense of a payment they seem to be closely related too.
Also, the term zakat is not charity. Below is an excerpt from a talk at the recent Quran Conference held in South Africa
The misconceptions regarding sadaqaat & zakaat have lead to a misunderstanding of what our duties are regarding spending from our wealth and our selves. Let?s first look at the definitions of these terms. The first misconception is common to both terms. That is the fallacy that they mean charity. Charity is something that tends to create a feeling of superiority in the one who gives it and a feeling of inferiority in the one who receives it.
Sadaqaat has at its root the meaning of truth. A careful study of the concept clearly shows that it is the fulfilment of a right that is due, in other words recognition of the truth that those in need have a right over you. I would like to illustrate this with a few examples.
In (44), we find that the gift that is given to a woman upon marriage is described as saduqaat. Clearly this is not a charity. It is given as a fulfilment of her right to such a gift. Also we find in (128, when Yusuf?s brothers come to him in a time of need they say ?Give us that which will be a fulfilment of a right that is due to us for Alllah rewards those who cause the fulfilment of a right that is due.? This fits much better in relation to the consistency of the concept than saying ? Treat it as charity to us for Allah rewards the charitable?.
A study of the concept of zakaat in the Quran shows that there is no way that this could simply refer to an obligatory charity, whether it be 2.5% or any other amount for that matter. A key issue in understanding this is presented in (417) which shows us that one who rejects the aakhir cannot uphold the zakaat, whatever it is. Now surely someone who denies the aakhir is capable of giving 2.5% or even much more than that in charity. Zakaat is the fulfilment of opportunities to develop the nafs by causing the development of the community in every respect. It is also stated that if established in power, it is incumbent on such a group to arrange for the establishment of the salaah (which is itself a much broader concept than generally accepted) and the fulfilment of opportunities to develop the nafs of each member of the society through the development of the entire community in every respect and to constantly serve Allah (2173). It is clear that it is a function of the community or state through its leader to ensure that it provides this complete concept of zakaat to the community.
So the difference between sadaqaat & zakaat is this. Sadqaat stems from the individual in order to fulfil a right that is due to those who are needy. Zakaat stems from the community at large through its leaders to create an environment in which sadaqaat is no longer necessary.
Imraan
bravo
This is good - I'll take a deeper look into this issue soon. Where did you get the excerpt from the Quran Conference?
-
Peace progressive
bravo
This is good - I'll take a deeper look into this issue soon. Where did you get the excerpt from the Quran Conference?
It is from a talk I presented at the conference entitled "The Economic Values of the Quran".
Imraan
-
Peace progressive
It is from a talk I presented at the conference entitled "The Economic Values of the Quran".
Imraan
Wow! You were at the conference and held a speech? Congrats! handshake
What were the reactions to your opinion/speech? -
A study of the concept of zakaat in the Quran shows that there is no way that this could simply refer to an obligatory charity, whether it be 2.5% or any other amount for that matter. A key issue in understanding this is presented in (417) which shows us that one who rejects the aakhir cannot uphold the zakaat, whatever it is. Now surely someone who denies the aakhir is capable of giving 2.5% or even much more than that in charity. Zakaat is the fulfilment of opportunities to develop the nafs by causing the development of the community in every respect. It is also stated that if established in power, it is incumbent on such a group to arrange for the establishment of the salaah (which is itself a much broader concept than generally accepted) and the fulfilment of opportunities to develop the nafs of each member of the society through the development of the entire community in every respect and to constantly serve Allah (2173). It is clear that it is a function of the community or state through its leader to ensure that it provides this complete concept of zakaat to the community.
This is about Pagans/Worshippers of idols that they do not pay Az Zakat. It thus shows that in the Muslim state Zakat is to be paid to the State by believers as well as the non believers????
-
Peace
Wow! You were at the conference and held a speech? Congrats! handshake
What were the reactions to your opinion/speech?Thanks.
The response was very good & positive. The only unfortunate part is that I ran out of time & was unable to fully put forward my views on the topic. We are publishing all the speakers presentattions. I will try to make the text availlable on our googlegroup site & post the link for those interested. We will also be trying to upload the video footage.
If you want, I can email a copy of my full presentation o you.
Imraan
-
Peace Mazhar
This is about Pagans/Worshippers of idols that they do not pay Az Zakat. It thus shows that in the Muslim state Zakat is to be paid to the State by believers as well as the non believers????
There are translations that support your view. There are also translations that support the view that I have presented. Either way, my studies have led me to believe that zakat is the responsibility of the community, just as the establishment of salat is the community's responsibility. Zakat is confused with sadqat & these to terms are used interchangeably without any merit.
Imraan
-
In your opinion is sadaqat voluntary or a compulsory duty?
What is the arabic equivalent of metaphorical in the quran?
How is rizq defined in the quran?
Forgive the response filled with questions, but I would just like to see what your stance is on these before we move forward discussing this.
Imraan
Peace,
Sadaqaat is for al-mumumineen. Voluntary? Yes, and no. Since, no one is forcing you to do/believe anything. It is one of the characteristics/duties of al-mumineen. In contrast, not 'spending' makes one a kafir - 3647
Re- metaphorical, 2/26 - mathal. See also 16/75, which uses a mathal, says that we are to spend from our rizq.
Rizq- a provision (from God) . Contextually, anything that God provides is a 'rizq'. We are supposed to give from this, according to 8/3 (among other signs), again, for al-mumineen. I couldn't find a reference where rizq is used for anyone other than Allah; still studying the concept.
-
Peace Joker
Peace,
Sadaqaat is for al-mumumineen. Voluntary? Yes, and no. Since, no one is forcing you to do/believe anything. It is one of the characteristics/duties of al-mumineen. In contrast, not 'spending' makes one a kafir - 3647
Re- metaphorical, 2/26 - mathal. See also 16/75, which uses a mathal, says that we are to spend from our rizq.
Rizq- a provision (from God) . Contextually, anything that God provides is a 'rizq'. We are supposed to give from this, according to 8/3 (among other signs), again, for al-mumineen. I couldn't find a reference where rizq is used for anyone other than Allah; still studying the concept.
When we speak of something being compulsory in the context of the quran, we are discussing those who accept the truth of the quran. I find that there is a misconception about the term "laa ikraha fideen" in 2256. This seems to be understood as "there is no compulsion in religion" & taken to mean that nobody can be forced to do anything in deen. This then tends to shift people in the direction that says "I cannot be compelled to do any thing in my deen". I find this view absurd. My understanding is that nobody can be compelled to choose any specific deen. Everybody is free to choose whichever deen they want. However, once you chose a deen, you ARE compelled to abide by rules & regulations of that deen. Ideally in the case of a community of individuals who subscribe to the quranic values, then, you would agree that sadaqaat is not voluntary. Would you agree that in such a community, the community could demand sadaqat from its members for its members who are in need?
I will respond to the other items in your post later as I have to go right now.
Imraan
-
Sadaqaat is for al-mumumineen. Voluntary? Yes, and no. Since, no one is forcing you to do/believe anything. It is one of the characteristics/duties of al-mumineen. In contrast, not 'spending' makes one a kafir - 3647
Wow...if we take your logic, does that mean that people who offer don't offer salat are kafirs too, based on 7443?
-
Before you jump to conclusions (I notice a trend), actually research the subject.
salat for al-kafireen is different... See chapter 9. In al kafireen's case, It has to do with upholding their agreements/contracts, etc...chapter 9...
Upholding as-salaat makes al kafireen brothers in the deen (9/11-13).
See the following article, for starters. Not my site, fyi...
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/disproved_traditional_salat.htm
-
Peace Joker
When we speak of something being compulsory in the context of the quran, we are discussing those who accept the truth of the quran. I find that there is a misconception about the term "laa ikraha fideen" in 2256. This seems to be understood as "there is no compulsion in religion" & taken to mean that nobody can be forced to do anything in deen. This then tends to shift people in the direction that says "I cannot be compelled to do any thing in my deen". I find this view absurd. My understanding is that nobody can be compelled to choose any specific deen. Everybody is free to choose whichever deen they want. However, once you chose a deen, you ARE compelled to abide by rules & regulations of that deen. Ideally in the case of a community of individuals who subscribe to the quranic values, then, you would agree that sadaqaat is not voluntary. Would you agree that in such a community, the community could demand sadaqat from its members for its members who are in need?
I will respond to the other items in your post later as I have to go right now.
Imraan
Peace,
I agree that the 'no compulsion' is often taken out of context. Agreed-- not voluntary for al-mumineen. But, the question is what is ad-deen? From what I've noticed of your other posts, you don't view it as a religion, which I agree with.
Would you agree that in such a community, the community could demand sadaqat from its members for its members who are in need?
Define members? Since al kafireen can be part of our system also, which makes them our brothers (9/11-13). Should they? no. It is a choice for those who don't fall under 'al mumineen'. We can't force them to give, which I take from 10/99. Furthermore, chapter 107 is vital on the subject. That is, encouraging feeding the poor, etc...