Hot/"ramadan" Answer
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Peace Farida, siki
Thank you for your warm welcome.to Farida, i think you, Once again , have made at least one mistake trying to find similitudes between 4067 and 3639.
- He is the One who created you from dust, then from a seed, then from an embryo, then He brings you out as a child, then He lets you reach your maturity, then you become old (person) ; and some of will have their lives terminated before this; and so that you may reach an appointed term, and perhaps so you may understand.
3639 And the moon We have measured it to appear in (descending) stages, until it returns to being like an old (ancient) curved sheath.
1 - As far as i understand, 4067 talks about the DEVELOPPMENT STAGES of a human being, as opposite to 3639 talking about a CYCLE STAGES of the moon.
None of us return to an "embryo" stage , but the moon always return to the "old curve sheet" stage .2 - as far as i understand arabic ( my mother tongue ) i can say that the the world "old" that you used in both verses, is in fact different in arabic version.
in 4067, God tells us that we may became "chuyukhan" (old person ) if not died before.
in 3639 god describes the crescent to be like an "qadeem" ( ancient ) curve sheet.i think both meaning cannot be interchanged, because the curve sheet never dies, and if you treat an old person as being "ancient" , she won't be happy with it o
Peace all
Salaam
wow your English is good you know the difference between "ancient" and old bravo
Me in development stages understand nothing brickwall -
ASA to all,
I'm visiting FM after a long time, and I probably wouldn't even have posted except that I got into an argument with my family about Fasting. Suffice to say, it didn't end well for any of us, and I've put my family into a lot of stress because of my lack of clarity about my beliefs. I have been meaning to get guidance from the Book about how to go through life in light of Allah's commandments, but I'm ashamed to say that I realised today that I have been putting off the duties of a Believer, behind the excuse of actually understanding those commandments before implementing them in my life, a definite indicator of procrastination and, worse, hypocrisy.
I guess that's why, more out of desperation than anything else, I came back to FM and searched topics about Ramadan and came across this one. I read Br. Ayman's article and whatever I could in this thread, and tried to get an understanding of all viewpoints. Before I really get into my questions and all, I'll summarize the status of Quran in my eyes at present.
I believe that the Quran is explained in detail (6114), has all explanations for a believer (1689) and contains the complete Shariah of God (Koran 4518 and 4213), as against man-made Shariah (Koran 4221).
Please understand that I have no intention to belittle anybody else's belief's or impose mine on anybody. I admit here and now, that I'm still learning and just hoping and praying that I don't go astray. Having said that, let me post my observations and questions.
(1) The meaning of the word "Shahar" has been debated about a lot in the discussion. Some say it means "Full Moon", others contend that it means "Month". Don't know if there are other meanings which have been attributed to the word, but these seem to enjoy most popularity. So, I looked up the root word used throughout the Book to see the context that it's been used in different places, namely 2185, 2194, 2197, 2217, 2226, 2234, 492, 52, 597, 92, 95, 936, 3412, 4615, 584, 654 & 973, and used both "Full Moon" and "Month" to translate. In all instances, it gave me the impression of a time frame, although in some verses, a significance was attached to these time frames, i.e. "Shahru Ramadana" (2185) and "Alshahra Alharam" (2194, 2217, 52, 597, 95). "Shahar" could very well be a time frame between two markers (e.g. two consecutive full/new moons), which would make sense, for the sake of continuing consistency and giving structure to time measurement. Whatever markers are used (Two consecutive full moons or two consecutive new moons), the time frame between them would be the same, I believe. Correct me, if I'm mistaken.
However, for the significant time frames, like "Shahru Ramadan" and "Alshahra Alharam", the starting marker will be important and understandably so. So, the real question in my mind is, what would that marker be? The New Moon? The Full Moon? The Half Cresent Moon?
The Full Moon Marker, to me, makes more "sense", mainly because it somehow incorporates all the usages of "Shahar" in one word, without skewing the context or understanding of the verses.
(2) The next issue that was discussed was the year. Two verses are used, 105 & 1712. Both mention the sun and the moon, so we can know about the number of years and the count. I personally didn't infer anything concrete from the verse which suggested that the year is either solar or lunar. From what I understand, they're both complementary.
The rising and setting of the sun helps us move from day to day. The phases of the moon give us the count from Shahar to Shahar. The seasonal cycle gives us the reference point for the start of a new year, and help us count the number of years between same seasons, e.g. 3 summers ago = 3 years ago, etc.
Don't really know how the years are consequent to the understanding of Fasting or Ramadan, but I thought I should post what I understood at present.
(3) The word "Myqat" has been discussed as well, attributing the meaning, "timing" to it. Two verses are quoted, 2189 (which has the plural, "Mawaqit" & 7142 (which has the singular, "Myqat". The translations used in the article are as follows
They ask you regarding the crescent moons, Say "They are timings for the people as well as for the debate." And piety is not that you would enter a home from its back, but piety is whomever is righteous and come to the homes from their main doors. And be aware of the God that you may succeed.
And We appointed for Moussa thirty nights, and We completed with ten thus was completed the timing of his Lord, forty nights...
While looking for all instances of the word, "Myqat", I found another verse which contained the word
- And they used to Say "After we die and turn to dust and bones, we will get resurrected?"
- "As well as our forefathers?"
- Say "The people of old and the later generations,"
- "Will be summoned to an appointed meeting on a predetermined Day."
Substituting "timing" in place of "an appointed meeting" doesn't really lend itself well to the meaning of the verse. However, on the flip side, insert "appointed meeting(s)" in place of "timing(s)" in 2189 & 7142, and it still makes... sense.
Now I guess I should get to the point. I don't think that the frequency of "10 nights/days" appearing throughout the Quran necessarily means it relates to Ramadan, or at least I don't see any compelling evidence for it. God's "appointed meeting" with Prophet Musa was completed counting 30 + 10 = 40 nights. So the "completed count" was 40 nights, no? Similarly, 10 days of Hajj are quoted, and Prophet Moses agreement to complete either 8 or 10 years (2827). Note that the next verse (282 mentions him saying, whichever of the two "counts" he accomplishes, there'll be no hard feelings from the employer. So, for all we know he may have "completed" the 8-year count and left. (I'm not sure of any verse in the Book that mentions how much time he was in service before he left. If anyone know, kindly point out my mistake.)
I guess the crux is, even if one occurences in the which display various similarities, it doesn't automatically mean that they are related. Verse 37 comes to mind which mentions the danger of seeking to derive interpretations from verses similar to each other. I'm sorry if I'm out of context there, but that is my real concern.
In essence, if I believe that "Shahar Ramadan" represents a particular time frame from one Full Moon to the next and if we witness the First Full Moon which marks the start of the Shahar, then we should complete the count of the "Shahar" with the Fasting. Occam's Razor, I guess.
(4) The bone of contention, "Ramadan". Two views. Proper Noun or Common Noun?
If it is a proper noun, then it's very reasonable to assume that Ramadan was an identifiable word/month in Pre-quranic era of Arabia. Otherwise, no one would know what was being addressed, when the Message was sent down. So, now the question is, "Is there evidence of presence of the word/month of Ramadan in the Pre-quranic era and if so, is it acceptable to anybody who believes that all explanations are in the Book?"
4144 comes to mind,
And had We made it a non-Arabic Quran, they would have said "If only its verses were made clear!" Non-Arabic and Arabic, Say "For those who believe, it is a guide and healing. As for those who disbelieve, there is a deafness in their ears, and they are blind to it. These will be called from a place far away."
I think If "Shahar Ramadan" was not a widely understood and used terminology in Arabia in those days, the signs would still have been unclear which would have contradicted this verse.
But, even this doesn't answer the question, "How do we know if Shahrah Ramadan then is the same Shahrah Ramadan now?" This is part I'm struggling with. Maybe I'm trying to overthink it, I don't know. But something feels missing. I guess I'm expecting a clearer distinction than this.
I look at the convention of naming in general. Everything is given a name which, more often than not, is indicative of its attributes. Take Allah's names in the Quran, for example. Every name takes root from certain attibutes, e.g. Ar-Razzaq (The Ever-Providing) takes root from Rizq (Bounty/Supply/Provisions). It would not surprise me if months, seasons and years were named in the same fashion in early Arabian times. The Gregorian Calender's September and December, for example, take root from "Septa" meaning 7 and "Deca" meaning 10 respectively. Similarly, "Shahra Ramadan" may well have taken cue from it's root "Ra-Miim-Dad", meaning "Scorching Heat", signifying the hottest month.
So, basically, even if "Shahra Ramadan" is a proper noun, it's root might indicate the nature of the time frame itself. In this case, Br. Ayman's Summer Solitice Moon "Marker" seems logical and doesn't seem to create any contradiction in the Book.
Those are my thoughts on the matter. Thanks for having the patience to read through them.
Peace
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"Month" does not define an accurate time period, even in existing solar calendar, If i tell you to carry out something for a month, i will have to clarify , weather 30 or 31 days. I think we could have caused less confusion by assigning 30 days to all months and making Feb, (or any month) of 35 days. But probably people back then wanted to equally distribute the shock of a single long month.
But the lunar month can not be humanly adjusted, It would never be a fixed period , and hence would keep us guessing, 29, or 30? So God can not use this term, He has to tell us start and end markers, and when ever he actually wanted to use the period a "lunar month", He used the term fasayamm shahreen. The days between two markers. what ever they turn out to be, 29 or 30.
siki
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"Month" does not define an accurate time period, even in existing solar calendar, If i tell you to carry out something for a month, i will have to clarify , weather 30 or 31 days. I think we could have caused less confusion by assigning 30 days to all months and making Feb, (or any month) of 35 days. But probably people back then wanted to equally distribute the shock of a single long month.
But the lunar month can not be humanly adjusted, It would never be a fixed period , and hence would keep us guessing, 29, or 30? So God can not use this term, He has to tell us start and end markers, and when ever he actually wanted to use the period a "lunar month", He used the term fasayamm shahreen. The days between two markers. what ever they turn out to be, 29 or 30.
siki
You should have explained this to God to make luner months according to your requirement so that you could adjust it as you wish, when you wish !
BTW whats the world for full moon in Urdu?
peace -
The orbit of the Earth is slowing down by a fraction of a second every year. The rotation of the Earth is also slowing each year, so they cannot be considered fixed or constant. Also, as the moon is receding from the Earth, it's orbit around the Earth is slowing.
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"Month" does not define an accurate time period, even in existing solar calendar, If i tell you to carry out something for a month, i will have to clarify , weather 30 or 31 days. I think we could have caused less confusion by assigning 30 days to all months and making Feb, (or any month) of 35 days. But probably people back then wanted to equally distribute the shock of a single long month.
But the lunar month can not be humanly adjusted, It would never be a fixed period , and hence would keep us guessing, 29, or 30? So God can not use this term, He has to tell us start and end markers, and when ever he actually wanted to use the period a "lunar month", He used the term fasayamm shahreen. The days between two markers. what ever they turn out to be, 29 or 30.
siki
Sorry, Siki... I might not be understanding you correctly, but when I say "Month", I don't mean the conventional Gregorian month or any other organized month for that matter. I'm just using a generalized one-word term for "Shahar", which basically seems to me as the time frame between 2 consecutive same moon phases, used in the same sense as 936. Not attributing a fixed number to them. It's a count from one marker to the other, right?
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ASA to all,
I'm visiting FM after a long time, and I probably wouldn't even have posted except that I got into an argument with my family about Fasting. Suffice to say, it didn't end well for any of us, and I've put my family into a lot of stress because of my lack of clarity about my beliefs.
PeaceSalaam and welcome back
At least your family didn't abandoned you to some remote Island where you would have to wait for summer and then using a natural sundial cut from a coconut to keep track of time of day and the length of the shadow.
Afterwards you start looking for the full-moon. This full-moon will also be special because it will take a very low path accross the horizon and for the first few hours after it rises will appear reddish in color hail
! Next time you have argument with your family make sure you have a sundial or a gnomon or any tall vertical object for the solstice determination
peace -
The orbit of the Earth is slowing down by a fraction of a second every year. The rotation of the Earth is also slowing each year, so they cannot be considered fixed or constant. Also, as the moon is receding from the Earth, it's orbit around the Earth is slowing.
Thanks Rev
Time to get meal ready to break fast so will catch up later insha'Allah
peace -
Peace all,
So God can not use this term, He has to tell us start and end markers, and when ever he actually wanted to use the period a "lunar month", He used the term fasayamm shahreen. The days between two markers. what ever they turn out to be, 29 or 30.
siki
I agree...that's the only and easiest way for people all around the world, space and time, (even those stranded in farida's island) to have understanding of time frames without the use of any technical instrument for measuring.
Peace Rev..
If the earth and moon are slowing down by a fraction of second every year , the this would be insignificant in a human life. Moreover, the time frame between two solstices will still be a fixed year within this same humain life or even the whole human civilisation.
As Br.Ayman said in one of hiw posts, the time frame between 2 summer solstices has always been equal to a year , and will still be , in a million years from now. whether this year is 365.2xxx , 360,9xxx or 150,8xxx days.Salam
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Peace all,
I agree...that's the only and easiest way for people all around the world, space and time, (even those stranded in farida's island) to have understanding of time frames without the use of any technical instrument for measuring.
Peace Rev..
If the earth and moon are slowing down by a fraction of second every year , the this would be insignificant in a human life and still a year between two solstices will be fixed within this same humain life or even the whole human civilisation.
As Br.Ayman said in one of hiw posts, the time frame between 2 summer solstices has always been equal to a year , and will still be , in a million years from now. whether this year is 365.2xxx , 360,9xxx or 150,8xxx days.Salam
Yes this is true. I was just making the point that there is no such thing as a fixed point in space/time as everything in the universe is moving and speeds change. If you calculate back 1400 or 2000 years ago, it has made a difference in the time between two solstices and the time between the phases of the moon.
I agree that as far as humans are concerned, the change is not very significant within their lifetime.
peace -
Peace all,
I agree...that's the only and easiest way for people all around the world, space and time, (even those stranded in farida's island) to have understanding of time frames without the use of any technical instrument for measuring.
Peace Rev..
If the earth and moon are slowing down by a fraction of second every year , the this would be insignificant in a human life and still a year between two solstices will be fixed within this same humain life or even the whole human civilisation.
As Br.Ayman said in one of hiw posts, the time frame between 2 summer solstices has always been equal to a year , and will still be , in a million years from now. whether this year is 365.2xxx , 360,9xxx or 150,8xxx days.Salam
I agree, moreover Rev , As the civilization has progressed to a level where we have managed to discover the info regarding slowing down of orbits by a second, He in his infinite wisdom knew, that by then we will be able to make "week , hour seconds , nanoseconds etc, and use them. Does he restrict us to using his timing devices only?
siki
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I agree, moreover Rev , As the civilization has progressed to a level where we have managed to discover the info regarding slowing down of orbits by a second, He in his infinite wisdom knew, that by then we will be able to make "week , hour seconds , nanoseconds etc, and use them. Does he restrict us to using his timing devices only?
siki
Of course we have the ability to add a leap second or leap day here and there to adjust our man-made time keeping to fit in with the "natural" time on the Earth, but it does change our calculations of events in history or the future.
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Peace Ayman,
As you found out, the starting date of the new era has nothing to do with the supposed date of the Hijra. The Hijri era month 1 actually started about 56 days earlier. So the start date of this new era is a big lie that in reality has nothing to do with the event it claims to be based on. Had month 1 been based on the actual supposed date of Hijra or the closest new moon to it, then the entire era would have been pushed 2 months and this year's Ramadan would be in two months.
Moreover, your entire calculation is erroneous because it ignores that according to the same sectarian sources that you used to conjecture the dates of the various events, the intercalary month was abolished in the year when the prophet died. If you factor this then the 26 Safar date would occur about 89 days (three lunar months) earlier and your dates will be off. So you are essentially implying that the prophet always fasted on the wrong dates.
Again it is an indisputable fact that the present so-called Ramadan is 100% arbitrary and it depends on when some guy decided the era was to start and with which month it started and on the 100% manmade order of the months.
Yet you completely ignore the sun as if 105 didn't mention it. This also results in you completely ignoring 1712 as if the verse didn't exist.
Impossible (full-moon is affecting your mind), without the sun there cannot be moon phases.
Muslim calendar started 1st month Muharram in 622 CE
Hijrah event was in the 3rd month Safar that same year- Cannot fast a full-moon
- Cannot tell a full-moon from a 98% full-moon
- Cannot apply full-moon illusion
- Hunting restriction swings by a month from June 21 to July 20
- Widows wait different time lengths depending on date of event
- Men fast different time lengths for same offense depending on date of event
- The blind, those with poor vision, and those living in cloudy weather cannot fast
- No mention using full-moon calendars and denies all prior lunar new crescent calendars
- Denies history only 10 years after events
PERF 558, basic logic, and history completely destroys the full-moon fantasy.
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handshake quickduck sun
In the past we used to get responses in support of Ayman from the eloquent ones now it?s been switched to a different category. yeah
Farida , peace
Ya. yeah ,, Most definitely that calls for an alarm on your end that even the beginners have started to digest it with a relative ease.
But As HE said, It would never penetrate, where the hearts are sealed , and ears are locked. because they would always follow what their elders followed, what their preachers preached, but do ponder , what if they were wrong?
siki
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Peace Rev,
Of course we have the ability to add a leap second or leap day here and there to adjust our man-made time keeping to fit in with the "natural" time on the Earth, but it does change our calculations of events in history or the future.
Yes, but when Ayman said that the summer solstice is in june 21th, they accused him of using man made calendar to apply god's timing system. I see no evil at using weeks, hours, minutes and seconds in our practical daily life, although they have no basis in the quran. But the evil will be ignoring God's timing system for the religious duties. That's the main point.
salam
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Peace Rev,
Yes, but when Ayman said that the summer solstice is in june 21th, they accused him of using man made calendar to apply god's timing system. I see no evil at using weeks, hours, minutes and seconds in our practical daily life, although they have no basis in the quran. But the evil will be ignoring God's timing system for the religious duties. That's the main point.
salam
Yes I understand. But the only time most people understand is our man-made, inaccurate calenders and time keeping. Time is relevant to where you are and how fast you are travelling. So there can never be an accurate fixed time
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Sorry, Siki... I might not be understanding you correctly, but when I say "Month", I don't mean the conventional Gregorian month or any other organized month for that matter. I'm just using a generalized one-word term for "Shahar", which basically seems to me as the time frame between 2 consecutive same moon phases, used in the same sense as 936. Not attributing a fixed number to them. It's a count from one marker to the other, right?
When God uses the term shahar, He wants us to wait, and then take reference from his marker to start, Not , that we start next day what ever moon shape we see till it returns.
Because next day we might not find the moon. What if it is the thinnest waxing crescent,and is not visible , or may be he does not want us to stay awake whole night, looking for it, if it is the thinnest waning crescent, which only has a very small visibility just before dawn.Nor does he want us to count more than Ayaam ul Madoodat (a few days which could be easily remembered and tracked on both hands fingers) , because people were uneducated and could mess up the count.
He had to recommend something which could not be missed, so that one could see it, start, forget about the count , continue the practice, and finish when one saw the same bright marker again.
I hope this helps.
siki