Hot/"ramadan" Answer

Sharp001

Peace everyone,

Sharp welcome back to the forum. welcome

Thanks, TruthSeeker.

In addition to what quickduck said, "shahr" cannot mean the interval between two nearly full moons because of the following reasons

According to 936 the count of shahr is 12. Sharp, please take any set of solar years and try to count 12 lunar cycles every year. You will be surprised to see that the count of lunar cycles is 11 for two consecutive solar years and is 12 in the third solar year. You will not be able to count at least 12 lunar cycles every solar year. On the other hand you will always be able to count 12 nearly full moons every single solar year. Therefore "shahr" cannot mean lunar cycle or interval between two nearly full moons but can only mean nearly full moon.

Hmmm... Let me see if I get this straight, try and count 12 Lunar cycles, 1st Moon being the Full Moon after the Summer Solictice and let's assume for simplicity's sake that each lunar cycle has 30 days

1 - 1st Moon - 2nd Moon = 30 days
2 - 2nd Moon - 3rd Moon = 30 days
3 - 3rd Moon - 4th Moon = 30 days
4 - 4th Moon - 5th Moon = 30 days
5 - 5th Moon - 6th Moon = 30 days
6 - 6th Moon - 7th Moon = 30 days
7 - 7th Moon - 8th Moon = 30 days
8 - 8th Moon - 9th Moon = 30 days
9 - 9th Moon - 10th Moon = 30 days
10 - 10th Moon - 11th Moon = 30 days
11 - 11th Moon - 12th Moon = 30 days
12 - 12th Moon - 1st Moon = 30 days

12 cycles in a Solar Year, present and accounted for. 360 days. Or did I completely misunderstand the concept?

We are asked to witness the "shahr" then fast it. It is "witnessed" in the past tense in 2185. The entire lunar cycle can only be witnessed after it has completed. But then how can you fast a period after you have witnessed it? Unless you invent a time machine that will be impossible. Therefore we are not being asked to witness a lunar cycle which is a time frame but we are being asked to witness a marker to start the abstinence.

Fair enough. Doesn't really change my understanding of beginning the fast after witnessing the marker.

We are asked to abstain for a few days and complete the count. That statement will make sense only if "shahr" is a marker. We are supposed to witness the marker to start the abstinence and then complete the count. If "shahr" meant the interval between two nearly full moons, then saying "complete the count" would be redundant because the lunar cycle already has the full information about the count of abstinence.

Not exactly. At least I don't see it that way. The "complete the count" part clarifies the situation for the exceptions, i.e. being ill or in journey. For example the number of days between 2 Nearly Full Moons is 30 days. I fasted for 15 consecutive days but couldn't fast in the next two days due to illness. At the end of the lunar cycle, out of a total of 30 counted days, which were meant for fasting, I fasted only 28. So I need to fast 2 more days in the next lunar cycle to "complete the count".

Shahr has been used in the same way as a woman's period in the relevant signs. The women use their period as a marker to start the interim. If a menstruating woman waits for three periods that time interval will be similar to waiting for three nearly full moons i.e. both will be almost two lunar cycles plus the time before the first period or the first nearly full moon. If "shahr" means the interval between two nearly full moons, then the interim of the non menstruating woman will be one lunar cycle more than that of a menstruating woman which does not make any sense.

If I understand you correctly, than the reasoning I applied to your first point would apply here, too. Observing 3 Menstruations and Observing 3 Menstrual periods would result in two different time periods. And considering the fact that in the Menstrual cycle, Menstruation is just the first stage, observing the 3rd Menstruation and acting on it, would mean that the 3rd Menstrual cycle wasn't completed as required by the verse.

We are told that the great reading was descended in a single night of qadr. Then we are told that the great reading was descended in shahr ramadhan. Therefore shahr can only mean nearly full moon because if it meant lunar cycle that would contradict with the sign saying that the great reading was descended in the night of qadr.

Hmmm... the Book was revealed/sent down on "Laylat al-qadr", on the night of the starting Marker signaling the start of Ramadan. Doesn't that technically that the the Book was sent down within the time frame of Ramadan, as that night is part of that time frame? Nothing in the verse indicates that the Book was revealed each day/night during the course of the whole of Ramadan. Revelation of the Book in that one night in Ramadan confirms the message without any contradictions that I see.

The reason I keep saying that "shahr" means "nearly full moon" is because technically the moon is never completely full. The moon can only be completely full when the sun, the earth, and the moon are aligned at 180 degrees or in a straight line. This occurs only once in 173 days as explained in one of my previous posts. When that happens, the moon is in the shadow of the earth in a lunar eclipse and is therefore not visible. The so-called full moon which is visible every lunar month is not usually aligned with the sun and the earth at 180 degrees but is slightly above the plane at less than 180 degrees and is therefore "nearly full moon". The classical dictionary meaning also mentions that shahr can mean the moon which is nearly full. Razor sharp precise terminology by the god which should increase your faith even further. Had the great reading used a word meaning "completely full moon", that would have contradicted the known scientific fact and the reality that moon can never be full, thereby disqualifying the great reading as the god's word!!!!

Thanks for that bit of info.

Peace

truthseeker11

Peace Sharp,

I used to be a fan of the old Sharp after reading his sharp posts but it seems that the new Sharp is not as sharp as the old Sharp!! I am really disappointed by your response. '( I guess I overestimated you but that's my fault not yours. (

I have already explained all these points in my past posts on this thread IN DETAIL and I didn't want to repeat myself over and over again. That's a logical fallacy of repetition. In any case I would humbly request you to go back and read my older posts and other posts that deal with these points for details. I would also request you to do your homework, like the old Sharp used to do. Instead of inventing your fantasy calendar with every lunar cycle of 30 days, you could have consulted a real solar calendar with lunar phases superimposed and did the calculations but you didn't. Even with your fantasy calendar, had you continued counting the 30 day fantasy lunar cycles in the next solar years you would have found that for the next 2 solar years there would have been 11 complete lunar cycles in each solar year.

Ok let's start step by step and point by point. Let's deal with the first point only for now and when it is settled we can move on to the next one. You can either consider the following luni-solar calendar and count the lunar cycles in each year consecutively for at least 12 years

http//www.timeanddate.com/calendar/moonphases.html

OR do the following exercise

Forget about all calendars and see what the reality is. Go out and start counting the lunar cycles for three actual solar years. Start from any solstice as your day 1 of the solar year. Then look for the first full moon after that day. The second full moon after that will complete the first "interval between two full moons" as per your definition of shahr. Count such intervals for the whole solar year until the same next solstice. For example if you started from the summer solstice this year then count the "interval between two full moons" until the summer solstice next year. Do this for at least 3 years and let me know what your findings are.

Let me make a prediction for you. From summer solstice this year (which was June 21) until the day before summer solstice of 2010 (June 20, 2010) you will count 11 complete lunar cycles. The first full moon during this period was on July 7 and the last full moon during this period will be on May 27. But don't take my word for it. Actually observe all the full moons and count the "intervals between two full moons" yourself. Repeat the same exercise for the period from June 21, 2010 to June 20, 2011. You will count 12 complete lunar cycles in that time period. Then repeat the same exercise for the period from June 21, 2011 to June 20, 2012. You will count 11 complete lunar cycles in that time period.

If you want, continue this exercise for the next 12 solar years. You will find that there are actually 11 complete lunar cycles (or intervals between two full moons) for 2 consecutive solar years and 12 complete lunar cycles in the third solar year and this will repeat. This will be empirical proof that shahr cannot mean lunar cycle because you should be able to count at least 12 "shahr" EVERY SOLAR YEAR.

See you in 3 or 12 solar years. I will not respond to you until I see the old Sharp again, who has sincerely done his homework with ACTUAL FACTS BASED ON REALITY as per 1736. Once again I apologize for overestimating you.

PS Wherever I have used the term "full moon" the reader should understand it as referring to the actual "nearly full moon".

Peace

ayman

Peace Sharp001,

Hmmm... Let me see if I get this straight, try and count 12 Lunar cycles, 1st Moon being the Full Moon after the Summer Solictice and let's assume for simplicity's sake that each lunar cycle has 30 days
1 - 1st Moon - 2nd Moon = 30 days
2 - 2nd Moon - 3rd Moon = 30 days
3 - 3rd Moon - 4th Moon = 30 days
4 - 4th Moon - 5th Moon = 30 days
5 - 5th Moon - 6th Moon = 30 days
6 - 6th Moon - 7th Moon = 30 days
7 - 7th Moon - 8th Moon = 30 days
8 - 8th Moon - 9th Moon = 30 days
9 - 9th Moon - 10th Moon = 30 days
10 - 10th Moon - 11th Moon = 30 days
11 - 11th Moon - 12th Moon = 30 days
12 - 12th Moon - 1st Moon = 30 days
12 cycles in a Solar Year, present and accounted for. 360 days. Or did I completely misunderstand the concept?

You partially misunderstood the concept. You are assuming that the beginning of the cycle will fall exactly on the summer solstice. This will rarely happen. Most likely, whatever marker one chooses, whether it is the full-moon or the crescent, will occur sometimes after the solstice. If it is more than 10 days after the solstice then you will only get 11 complete cycles. So as Truthseeker said, most of the times you will only get 11 integer cycles in a year. If you start counting fractions of a cycle then you will end up with 12.3 cycles in a year, never 12. The only way you can count 12 in a year is if "shahr" was an event and meant "full-moon". If it meant "crescent" then you will also have a problem because there are 24-26 crescents in a year.

Fair enough. Doesn't really change my understanding of beginning the fast after witnessing the marker.

No it does change your understanding. Now you are forced to say "marker" and not a continuous month. This is due to "witnessed" being in the perfect past tense while "fast" is in the present tense. There is no way around it, "shahr" has to be an event that, as you said, marks the start of the fast.

Not exactly. At least I don't see it that way. The "complete the count" part clarifies the situation for the exceptions, i.e. being ill or in journey. For example the number of days between 2 Nearly Full Moons is 30 days. I fasted for 15 consecutive days but couldn't fast in the next two days due to illness. At the end of the lunar cycle, out of a total of 30 counted days, which were meant for fasting, I fasted only 28. So I need to fast 2 more days in the next lunar cycle to "complete the count".

In 2184, we also hear that the fast is for a few days ("ayyam ma3doodat&quot. This would be redundant and useless information if it was already known that "shahr" is 29-30 days.

If I understand you correctly, than the reasoning I applied to your first point would apply here, too. Observing 3 Menstruations and Observing 3 Menstrual periods would result in two different time periods. And considering the fact that in the Menstrual cycle, Menstruation is just the first stage, observing the 3rd Menstruation and acting on it, would mean that the 3rd Menstrual cycle wasn't completed as required by the verse.

Menstruations are EVENTS exactly like the full-moon is an event. No woman I know has a continuous period from one period to the next, like month is a continuous period from one month to the next. This would be miserable, especially for her husband ).

Hmmm... the Book was revealed/sent down on "Laylat al-qadr", on the night of the starting Marker signaling the start of Ramadan. Doesn't that technically that the the Book was sent down within the time frame of Ramadan, as that night is part of that time frame? Nothing in the verse indicates that the Book was revealed each day/night during the course of the whole of Ramadan. Revelation of the Book in that one night in Ramadan confirms the message without any contradictions that I see.

Truthseeker is saying the opposite. The great reading was clearly descended in one night. The wrong understanding of "shahr" as "month" creates a contradiction. So now on the one hand the god is saying that it descended in on night and on the other he is saying 29-30 days!

Peace,

Ayman

farida

Peace Sharp,

I used to be a fan of the old Sharp after reading his sharp posts but it seems that the new Sharp is not as sharp as the old Sharp!! I am really disappointed by your response. '( I guess I overestimated you but that's my fault not yours. (
........
See you in 3 or 12 solar years. I will not respond to you until I see the old Sharp again, who has sincerely done his homework with ACTUAL FACTS BASED ON REALITY as per 1736. Once again I apologize for overestimating you.

Peace

Salaam Sharp
As you said I'm visiting FM after a long time I see that last year you stopped posting after this thread Reply #59 on January 06, 2008, 102922 PM ?Re Virgin Birth of Isa
confused However you must be wondering how come truthseeker11 seems to know you so well apparently he only joined last year with this post? Reply #362 on September 15, 2008, 051110 AM ? on September 15, 2008, 051110 AM
Being Sharp work out yourself who is actually dual writing here hmm

savage_carrot

Please stay on topic.

We are well aware of who's who and if there's any breach of the rules in this regard.

Posts in response to this will be deleted and/or disciplinary action taken.

unknownuser

Peace quickduck,

i'll try to answer your 9 points as of my understanding after reading this thread

1- but you cannot either have witnessed (past tense ) the hole "month" and then fast it.
2- yes but the main point is not witnessing all the "almost full moons" , it's about witnessing the first one that rises after sunset (even if it is only 95% full moon). then you fast until the crescent phase (max 10 days).

3- i think point 2 answers this ...
4- Not only swings , but it is also very different for both hemispheres. But one thing is a fact the wildlife follows a lunar-seasons system. you cannot ignore that.

5- what do you think is the purpose for widows to wait?? isn't for making sure that they're not pregnant if they decide to marry again ?? that seems logical for me that they don't wait the same time depending on their menstruating cycle. because as we all know, the menstruating event alters chances of pregnancy.

6- It's not true !!! Men fast exactly the same time frame between Two consecutive "shahrayn" . if a man do the offense, so he must wait until he sees the full moon , then start fastin until the next full moon . All the Men fast the same time length !!!!!!!!!!! A B C ...easy like 1 2 3 ...

7- in my understanding, the arabic word "shahida" doesn't strictly means "witness by sight". It also means to attend/to be present at. (i.e the olympic stadium "shahida" a great game) (i.e n?2, this forum is "yash'hado" a great debate about ramadan issue). So if the blind person is not living alone in farida's lost island, he will probably know by someone else that the moon is "full" tonight.

8- i'll be pleased to comment this point if i first understand what you mean by it.

9- History may deny the full moon theory, but not the 8 points above.

But is not an answer, again how do you fast a full-moon?
Then your timing is 5 to 6 days off. Try applying for a widow whose husband died today.
Incorrect since full moon illusion which occurs a day before the solstice is not counted.
The full moon 29 days after a summer solstice is an ordinary full moon.
Again not answering the question.
Why forbidden to kill an animal on June 22 in one year and OK to kill same animal until July 20 in a different year?
Again not answering the question. Why a woman whose husband died one day after the full-moon waits 29 days longer than a widow whose husband died two days earlier the day before the full-moon?
It is true! The clock starts and the sex stops immediately or feeding 60 poor.

584 So who did not find, so fasting two months following each other from before that they touch each other, so who was not able, so feeding sixty poorest

Bingo! Those who know the month of Ramadan has started and witness to do so should fast it.
Islamic, Jewish, Chinese new moon crescent calendars where is the full-moon?
What points? There were no answers given and totally ignored was PERF 558 and history.

Peace Ayman,

Truthseeker is saying the opposite. The great reading was clearly descended in one night. The wrong understanding of "shahr" as "month" creates a contradiction. So now on the one hand the god is saying that it descended in on night and on the other he is saying 29-30 days!

There you go again. Intellectual deception withholding evidence to the contrary.

It started that night in the month of Ramadan. Read your own post.

Not the same night. Only "inzal" happened in one night. On the other hand, the second stage of "tanzil" can happen anytime.

The rest came later at anytime obviously.

2532-33 And those who disbelieve say "Why is not the Qur'?n revealed to him all at once?" Thus, that We may strengthen your heart thereby. And We have revealed it to you gradually, in stages. And no example or similitude do they bring, but We reveal to you the truth, and the better explanation thereof.

80 He frowned and turned away that the blind came to him

ayman

Peace Rex/Nun/Pseudo/Eid/whatever future reincarnation,

But is not an answer, again how do you fast a full-moon?

How after you had witnessed a month you then go back in time and fast it?

Then your timing is 5 to 6 days off. Try applying for a widow whose husband died today.

This has been answered many times on this thread.

Incorrect since full moon illusion which occurs a day before the solstice is not counted.

It is the one after the solstice that is the scorching full-moon.

The full moon 29 days after a summer solstice is an ordinary full moon.

No it is not. All full-moons are ordinary once they rise up enough in the sky. Please post the elevation of this full-moon where you live and compare it to the elevation of the next full-moon over the same time interval. You will see that it rises slower and to a lower altitude than the other full-moons.

Again not answering the question.
Why forbidden to kill an animal on June 22 in one year and OK to kill same animal until July 20 in a different year?

Why according to your arbitrary manmade nonsensical calendar you can kill an animal at anytime in blatant violation of the god's command? You have basically abrogated the restriction on hunting and proposed some nonsense about the words in 51-2 only applying during "hajj" and not at any other time.

Again not answering the question. Why a woman whose husband died one day after the full-moon waits 29 days longer than a widow whose husband died two days earlier the day before the full-moon?

Same when she is counting menstruation events. This has been answered many times. Next time try to reincarnate into someone who can read properly and patiently.

It is true! The clock starts and the sex stops immediately or feeding 60 poor.
584 So who did not find, so fasting two months following each other from before that they touch each other, so who was not able, so feeding sixty poorest

This is talking about the period between consecutive full-moons.

Bingo! Those who know the month of Ramadan has started and witness to do so should fast it.

You are making up your own sorry scripture. This is not what 2185 says. This is what you fantacise that it says.

Islamic, Jewish, Chinese new moon crescent calendars where is the full-moon?

All ancient civilizations (and modern ones) use the full-moon for timing things like the harvest (Harvest Moon) and hunting (Hunter Moon).

What points? There were no answers given and totally ignored was PERF 558 and history.

You are completely ignorant of the basic facts in PERF558 and history. If you were able to read then you would have seen that PERF558 NEVER MENTIONS the word "hijri". So the only thing we can determine from PERF558 is the start date of the new era. All your other dates (death of the prophet, Hijra, etc.) are nothing but conjecture based on circular reasoning. As Herbman intelligently pointed out, the start date of the new era was right after the summer solstice. This was the point of initial diversion. So the only thing that we can deduce is that the prior correct marker of the start of the year was the summer solstice. This will probably go over your head.

There you go again. Intellectual deception withholding evidence to the contrary.

At least I am being me and not feeling ashamed of it. We are still waiting on Eid to provide the picture that you were boasting that you will take of the NEW MOON crescent. When this was exposed as empty boasting, it is no wonder you changed your name to Rex.

It started that night in the month of Ramadan. Read your own post.
The rest came later at anytime obviously.
2532-33 And those who disbelieve say "Why is not the Qur'?n revealed to him all at once?" Thus, that We may strengthen your heart thereby. And We have revealed it to you gradually, in stages. And no example or similitude do they bring, but We reveal to you the truth, and the better explanation thereof.
80 He frowned and turned away that the blind came to him?

You still don't understand the difference between "inzal" (decending by the spirit which happened in one night) and "tanzil" (bringing it down to the heart of the prophet which happened over a long time). "Inzal" is one night and not 29-30 days. "Tanzil" is over a long period and not specifically 29-30 days. So your 29-30 days month is completely irrelevant as far as this issue.

Peace,

Ayman

siki

U mean 14th of moon o
But 14 is half of 28 laugh
neither here nor there rotfl
This is the marker for Siki confused

Dear sister farida. salam

Yes! because the country is plagued with 180 million (minus a few) sunni sectarians, who start counting with an invisible cresent, as #1 day of moon, so logically they would end up numbering the shahar (full moon) as 14th day of moon.

But how come you ignored when I told you all the roots from sh ha ra, in urdu, like shoharat, Mashhoor, ishtihar etc, all originating and meaning "advertisement" , "something obvious" , " kind of some thing which makes its presence known even if you are not interested in it"?

crescent of the new moon http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MonthFull Moon ??? Please do not use English term tell us in Slavic (msnc&#301.
http//en.wiktionary.org/wiki/monthSomeone &nbsp You mean Ayman!
yes

I am a little surprised that a person like you, who has access to computer, wiki etc, thinks of it to be an authority, and is totally ignorant about working/listings in wikipedia?

I am shocked to see that you prefer to understand divine message through a man made book, disregarding over whelming evidence which the Quran itself contains? And that book, which even a novice with a frozen brain can post/edit?

Scope of this forum is to re-study and purify the understanding of divine message, disregarding all existing baggage, purely on logic and evidence.

If you have to stick with "passed on" practices, which in all likelihood have been morphed/ corrupted, I am sorry to say ," You have not understood the spirit behind this forum, and in my opinion, your time spent here probably has been thoroughly wasted.

siki

anthonywallace

First, if you call someone worthless you will be in danger of the fires of Hell. And you will be put on trial.

Now, the below is response to Aymans 1st posts

I agree that the start of ramadan depends on the sighting of the moon. 2185 and 2189 is enuff to prove that this is correct. I agree that the sighting is not easy, but that dont change 2185 and 2189. Nobody said it would be easy. Ramadan depends on the sighting of the moon and not a myriad of other factors other than thin sighting. At least not to me. Even if shar means "moon", there is still no mention of the sun ( or solar) in 2185. I agree that 2185 contains the complete info that we need to know when to start the abstinace, and the sun or solar system has nothin to do with it to my knowleadge. Especially when you translate "shara" as full moon. 105 clearly says God measured the phases of the moon;so that you might know the number of years and the calculation; while the sun is only mentioned as a shinning brightness and the moon was made to reflect it. And 105, 1712, 971, the other similar verses you try to throw up, all that he say she say and these differnt storys has nothing to do with us fasting according to 2185. 2185,2189, and 105 leave no doubt that the year is lunar. New moons or cresent moons, 2189 still mentions the moon as timing device, and not the sun as a timing device. And in 7142 and 892 is mention of nights and not days. And you caint say that " Ma3dootat" is a fixed 10 days ( without explicit knowleadge) and 2184 does not say for "10 days." I agree that " ma3doodat" as " a few" can be any number from 3-10, but you caint say it is 10 days for certain ( without knowleadge). Espeacially when The God didnt say so or say "fast 10 days." And 936 also justifies a lunar year because the moon is mentioned and not the sun. And the mention of the ten nights in 892 (i think) could be refering to the ten nights mentioned in 7142, or even the ten mentioned in 2196 even thoe the word "night" is not in that verse for all we know. Unless it is some prophesy or somethin connected to Ayman.

Some countrys end their ramadan 1 day before others because if it is 12am on one side of the globe, it is 12pm on the other side to my knowleadge. Its like salat, when we end salat it is just beginning on the other side to my understanding. Or when it is evening it is dawn on the other side to me understanding. Ramadan is to be observed by those who witness it. Also I think even seeing a 1-2 day old cresent is still good enuff to call ramadan if one is certain that the cresent is 1-2 days old. And shahr can mean month or moon, which is bout the same to me. Each full/new moon is considered a new month. 2185 is evidence that there is a month named ramadan. The year is lunar - to my understanding. And you are following all the similar verses seeking to cause confusion and frustrate 2184-185 and 189. From 105, it can be seen that the learning of the number of years and calculation are helped by the moon to my understanding. And to say the complete count is 10 fixed days in 2185 is a lie against Allah - the Lord. We calculate from new moon to the next. There are 12 full moons ( or months) with God a year. I agree God tells us to count 12 months ( or moons) in a year, and four are restricted. I also agree that your articles only reflect your personal interpretaion of the verses of quran ( set mainly to justify your therom). And I think this article can be both misleading ( cause it cast doubt, division, and could repel from the path) and benifitial to a degree because it has a different view ( of the year being solar) that makes others research more on this topic and me want to get to the truth and bottom of it by either proving or disproving your therome. So far I am closer to disproving it thoe. With Quran; and disregarding all that he say she say unless confirmed by quran. And the weeks have always been 7 day weeks every since the Genisis, so all that 10,20 day weeks used by some is irrelevant or might I say wrong,wrong,wrong and off topic.

eat

Sharp001

Peace Br. TS,

Peace Sharp,

I used to be a fan of the old Sharp after reading his sharp posts but it seems that the new Sharp is not as sharp as the old Sharp!! I am really disappointed by your response. '( I guess I overestimated you but that's my fault not yours. (

I'm sorry to have disappointed you. I guess this is one of the many areas of my life, I really haven't pondered over. I hope to look into it further, soon. Till that time, I'll try to post as little as I can.

I have already explained all these points in my past posts on this thread IN DETAIL and I didn't want to repeat myself over and over again. That's a logical fallacy of repetition. In any case I would humbly request you to go back and read my older posts and other posts that deal with these points for details. I would also request you to do your homework, like the old Sharp used to do. Instead of inventing your fantasy calendar with every lunar cycle of 30 days, you could have consulted a real solar calendar with lunar phases superimposed and did the calculations but you didn't. Even with your fantasy calendar, had you continued counting the 30 day fantasy lunar cycles in the next solar years you would have found that for the next 2 solar years there would have been 11 complete lunar cycles in each solar year.

I apologize. My mistake that I didn't go through all the 80 pages of this thread, just went through first 22 pages before I jumped here. In my defense, all I can say is I needed an answer within the span of 5-6 hours, which definitely was unreasonable. But, in the end, I wasn't able to convince either myself or my brother of not fasting in the (how you would call it) so-called month of Ramadan, and ended up fasting yesterday, am fasting today and probably will till the end of this so-called month of Ramadan.

Ok let's start step by step and point by point. Let's deal with the first point only for now and when it is settled we can move on to the next one. You can either consider the following luni-solar calendar and count the lunar cycles in each year consecutively for at least 12 years

http//www.timeanddate.com/calendar/moonphases.html

OR do the following exercise

Forget about all calendars and see what the reality is. Go out and start counting the lunar cycles for three actual solar years. Start from any solstice as your day 1 of the solar year. Then look for the first full moon after that day. The second full moon after that will complete the first "interval between two full moons" as per your definition of shahr. Count such intervals for the whole solar year until the same next solstice. For example if you started from the summer solstice this year then count the "interval between two full moons" until the summer solstice next year. Do this for at least 3 years and let me know what your findings are.

Let me make a prediction for you. From summer solstice this year (which was June 21) until the day before summer solstice of 2010 (June 20, 2010) you will count 11 complete lunar cycles. The first full moon during this period was on July 7 and the last full moon during this period will be on May 27. But don't take my word for it. Actually observe all the full moons and count the "intervals between two full moons" yourself. Repeat the same exercise for the period from June 21, 2010 to June 20, 2011. You will count 12 complete lunar cycles in that time period. Then repeat the same exercise for the period from June 21, 2011 to June 20, 2012. You will count 11 complete lunar cycles in that time period.

If you want, continue this exercise for the next 12 solar years. You will find that there are actually 11 complete lunar cycles (or intervals between two full moons) for 2 consecutive solar years and 12 complete lunar cycles in the third solar year and this will repeat. This will be empirical proof that shahr cannot mean lunar cycle because you should be able to count at least 12 "shahr" EVERY SOLAR YEAR.

I think I may have misunderstood the whole thing from the outset, because my line of thinking appears to be based on the fact that the "year" starts on the day after the "Shahar Ramadan" and ends on the night of the next "Shahar Ramadan", but your thinking is that a Solar Year (which is the period between one Summer/Winter Solistice to the next Summer/Winter Solistice) would contain either 12 or 13 Full Moons. Am I correct in this assumption?

See you in 3 or 12 solar years. I will not respond to you until I see the old Sharp again, who has sincerely done his homework with ACTUAL FACTS BASED ON REALITY as per 1736. Once again I apologize for overestimating you.

Ah, what a wonderful sign.

1736 - And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and mind, all these you are responsible for.

Thanks for the reminder.

PS Wherever I have used the term "full moon" the reader should understand it as referring to the actual "nearly full moon".

Yes, I perfectly understand. Thanks.

Peace Br. Ayman,

Peace Sharp001,

You partially misunderstood the concept. You are assuming that the beginning of the cycle will fall exactly on the summer solstice. This will rarely happen. Most likely, whatever marker one chooses, whether it is the full-moon or the crescent, will occur sometimes after the solstice. If it is more than 10 days after the solstice then you will only get 11 complete cycles. So as Truthseeker said, most of the times you will only get 11 integer cycles in a year. If you start counting fractions of a cycle then you will end up with 12.3 cycles in a year, never 12. The only way you can count 12 in a year is if "shahr" was an event and meant "full-moon". If it meant "crescent" then you will also have a problem because there are 24-26 crescents in a year.

Like I said to TS, I may have started off on the wrong foot. My line of thinking appears to be based on the fact that the "year" starts on the day after the "Shahar Ramadan" and ends on the night of the next "Shahar Ramadan", but your thinking is that a Solar Year (which is the period between one Summer/Winter Solistice to the next Summer/Winter Solistice) would contain either 12 or 13 Full Moons. Am I correct in this assumption?

No it does change your understanding. Now you are forced to say "marker" and not a continuous month. This is due to "witnessed" being in the perfect past tense while "fast" is in the present tense. There is no way around it, "shahr" has to be an event that, as you said, marks the start of the fast.

Hmm... I see where you're coming from, and it seems logical. But come to think of it, the current practice is the same in theory, even though the marker and the time of year may be wrong. Around the world, as soon as the New Moon is sighted/witnessed, the month and the fasting begins the next day. Again, I'm not justifying or validating the practice, just making an observation.

In 2184, we also hear that the fast is for a few days ("ayyam ma3doodat&quot. This would be redundant and useless information if it was already known that "shahr" is 29-30 days.

I totally overlooked that verse. Your claim of redunduncy has merit.

Menstruations are EVENTS exactly like the full-moon is an event. No woman I know has a continuous period from one period to the next, like month is a continuous period from one month to the next. This would be miserable, especially for her husband .

I agree that Mestruations are events. I think I may have misunderstood the verses as I took the Period to mean the Menstrual Cycle, whereas I think it indicates the Menstruation Phase of the cycle. Please correct me, if I'm mistaken.

Truthseeker is saying the opposite. The great reading was clearly descended in one night. The wrong understanding of "shahr" as "month" creates a contradiction. So now on the one hand the god is saying that it descended in on night and on the other he is saying 29-30 days!

I think you and TS may have misunderstood what I meant. I'll try to illustrate it.

If I tell you today that I was born in March, and tomorrow I tell you that on the night I was born there was a Full Moon, (A) Would you take the first statement to mean that I was born through-out the month? (B) Would the statements be contradictory to each other?

So basically what I was trying to say is if] the time frame of "Ramadan" started from witnessing of the "Scorching Full Moon" and ended at the witnessing of the next "Full Moon", and the Book was sent down on the night of the 'Scorching Full Moon", which falls into that time frame, then the verse mentioning that the Book being sent down in the "month" of Ramadan doesn't automatically imply that it was sent down throughout the "month".

584 So who did not find, so fasting two months following each other from before that they touch each other, so who was not able, so feeding sixty poorest

This is talking about the period between consecutive full-moons.

Sorry about being off-topic, but I have a question about this verse. The period between two full-moons would/can be 29-30 days, but the feeding is to 60 poorest. It seems kind of odd and non-symmetrical (for lack of a better word). 30 days or 60 feedings? I expected, 30 days and 30 feeding, or 60 days and 60 feedings, for equality, I guess.

Peace All

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Yet you completely ignore the sun as if 105 didn't mention it. This also results in you completely ignoring 1712 as if the verse didn't exist.

105 He is the One who made the sun an illuminator, and the moon a light, and He measured its phases so that you would know the number of the years and the calculation. God has not created this except for truth. He details the signs for a people who know.

Not sure if the verse says the sun has stages, but that could just mean for calculating the day. Tell me, ayman, is the thing about phases for the moon or the sun?

truthseeker11

Peace Br Sharp,

I think I may have misunderstood the whole thing from the outset, because my line of thinking appears to be based on the fact that the "year" starts on the day after the "Shahar Ramadan" and ends on the night of the next "Shahar Ramadan", but your thinking is that a Solar Year (which is the period between one Summer/Winter Solistice to the next Summer/Winter Solistice) would contain either 12 or 13 Full Moons. Am I correct in this assumption?

The old Sharp is back yay yay yay

Everyone watch out now

The answer to your above question is yes.

my line of thinking appears to be based on the fact that the "year" starts on the day after the "Shahar Ramadan" and ends on the night of the next "Shahar Ramadan"

Now everyone can see why I am a Sharp fan. This Sharp theory is the best attack I have ever seen on Ayman theory bravo bravo bravo It has gotten me excited on this topic again !!

This theory will pass the 936 test with flying colors !! One always counts 12 lunar cycles from one shahr ramadhan to start of the next. Once every 3 years there will be thirteen shahrs (lunar cycles) from the start of the first cycle (shahr ramadhan) until the end of the last shahr before shahr ramadhan but the thirteenth shahr is then skipped. INGENIOUS theory but it has some problems as I will discuss later.

Ayman theory of counting 12 nearly full moons in a solar year passes this test also. So this point is a draw !!

One will have to witness the whole shahr ramadhan cycle of 29-30 days first and can then abstain for a few days starting from the second full moon at the end of shahr ramadhan and complete the count of the few days by abstaining for ten days. This would pass the 2185 test also !!

This point is a draw also between Ayman theory and Sharp theory !!

If I tell you today that I was born in March, and tomorrow I tell you that on the night I was born there was a Full Moon, (A) Would you take the first statement to mean that I was born through-out the month? (B) Would the statements be contradictory to each other?

So basically what I was trying to say is if] the time frame of "Ramadan" started from witnessing of the "Scorching Full Moon" and ended at the witnessing of the next "Full Moon", and the Book was sent down on the night of the 'Scorching Full Moon", which falls into that time frame, then the verse mentioning that the Book being sent down in the "month" of Ramadan doesn't automatically imply that it was sent down throughout the "month".

I will accede this point because it can go either way. bravo

Shahr ramadhan allathee unzila fihi al-qur'an can also be used to refer to descent in one night of the lunar cycle of shahr ramadhan so it wouldnt contradict either Ayman theory or Sharp theory !! So this point is a draw also between the two theories !!

There are two problems however with Sharp theory. If it was not for the signs mentioning the menstrual periods to determine interim compared to count of shahr determining the interim and the sign mentioning night and day as the sole determinants of the solar year, Sharp theory would have been a complete draw with Ayman theory !!

Sharp theory makes the year primarily lunar whereas according to 1712 it is primarily solar. According to 1712 one should be able to determine the year using only day and night and the only way to do that is from one solstice to the next and not from one shahr ramadhan to the next.

One point to Ayman theory !!

Shahr has been used in the same way as a woman's menstrual period in the relevant signs. The women are asked to use their menstrual periods as markers to determine the interim after divorce. If a menstruating woman waits for three menstrual periods that time interval will be similar to waiting for three nearly full moons i.e. both will be almost two lunar cycles plus the time before the first period or the first nearly full moon. If "shahr" means the interval between two nearly full moons, then the interim of the post menopausal woman will be one lunar cycle more than that of a menstruating woman which does not make any sense.

One point to Ayman theory !!

End result

Ayman theory wins by 2-0 with three draws !!

I will leave brother Ayman to carry on the discussion with you because now that the old Sharp is back, it should be an interesting discussion. handshake

Peace

guest

Peace Ayman,

You say ??here are the exact dates without using any human calendar

This year the night of the fast was The night of the first full-moon after the summer solstice

Next year the night of the fast will be The night of the first full-moon after the summer solstice?

There are many contradictions in these statements. I will only point two of them to you. Perchance you may reflect.

In 2010 the full-moon after summer solstice occurs on 26 June at 731 AM (long W77.0, lat N38.9). This is a daytime full-moon which contradicts the night of the first full-moon. I suppose you are not fasting in 2010 because you don?t see the full-moon at night. Remember the next night moon is not a full-moon.

Now let?s see how you violate the verse 202 ? We did not reveal the Quran to you, to cause you any hardship.

In 2011 the full-moon after summer solstice occurs on 15 July at 240 AM (long W77.0, lat N38.9).

Now, Ayman requires that everyone (young, old and ill persons) must witness the full-moon at 240 AM (past midnight). Tell me Ayman, is this not hardship. You are contradicting verse 202.

These contradictions constitute the final nail on the coffin of Ayman?s Ramadan theory.

Recant your article, repent and come back to straight path.

You say ?I guess I can forget about trying to find the timing according to the great reading???

You don?t follow the Quranic timing. You follow the timing ordained by classic Arabic dictionary. Give us a Quranic verse that tells us to consult classic Arabic dictionary to determine Quranic meaning. You are seeing Quran through the eyes of classic Arabic dictionary just as most Christian see Jesus through John, Mark, Paul, ?.You have surrendered your sole and the innermost thought to the classic Arabic dictionary. Your dictionary is a hadith making factory. The use of such approach exhibits very poor judgment on your part. The right way to study Quran is to seek God?s help and not the help of classic Arabic dictionary. The God is the teacher of the Quran. Unfortunately you elected Arabic dictionary as your teacher. What a miserable choice indeed.

You say ?.. and I should just follow the timing ordained by Umar, the rightly guided companion of the prophet.?

This is a false accusation against Umar. Where is your evidence? Did you witness Umar actions or do you have a evidence from the Quran? Only a liar would do what you are doing. For all we know the timing may have been ordained by Prophet Muhammad himself. Anyway these are irrelevant discussion, what matter is the truth about your proposed timing system? Please do not try to change the subject.

You say ??.Farida said I can't understand the Quran better than the prophet whose understanding she gets from the holy Sunna and Tafsir of Ibn Kathir.?

Farida is CORRECT. The Quran says Prophet Muhammad was given wisdom. Nowhere in the Quran have we found that Ayman was given wisdom. On the contrary the Quran warns us about people like you who twist God?s words. Your understanding of Quranic verses and the lack of scientific knowledge justifies Farida?s conclusion.

You say ??You or any of the other thinly disguised Sunnis hypocritically pretending to follow the great reading?

Again this is another false accusation. Where are you evidence? This behavior alone is sufficient to reject you as a righteous person. You are really a master manipulator and a misguided person. Satan is real proud of you.

Sharp001

Br. TS,

I think I may have misunderstood the whole thing from the outset, because my line of thinking appears to be based on the fact that the "year" starts on the day after the "Shahar Ramadan" and ends on the night of the next "Shahar Ramadan", but your thinking is that a Solar Year (which is the period between one Summer/Winter Solistice to the next Summer/Winter Solistice) would contain either 12 or 13 Full Moons. Am I correct in this assumption?

The answer to your above question is yes.

That's good to hear. Now I know what page I should be on.

my line of thinking appears to be based on the fact that the "year" starts on the day after the "Shahar Ramadan" and ends on the night of the next "Shahar Ramadan"

The problem with this line of thinking is that firstly it ignores the role of the sun in determining the year per the great reading (1712 and 105) and secondly this line of thinking will result in a year that will not be in sync with the seasons thereby ending up violating the hunting restrictions as ordained by the god in the inviolable shuhoor.

True, but Br. Progressive asks a pertinent question about 105.

105 He is the One who made the sun an illuminator, and the moon a light, and He measured its phases so that you would know the number of the years and the calculation. God has not created this except for truth. He details the signs for a people who know.

Not sure if the verse says the sun has stages, but that could just mean for calculating the day. Tell me, ayman, is the thing about phases for the moon or the sun?

This creates an apparent contradiction to the understanding of 1712. Br. Ayman has reasoned that out in his article as follows

10.5. It is He who made the sun a shining brightness and the moon a light and made it stages; so that you might know the number of years and the calculation. The God didn't create this except with the truth, He explains His signs to people who know.

From 105, it can be seen that the learning of the number of years and calculation are helped by either or both the sun and the moon, however there is no mention of a specific stage of the moon. Another sign that makes it absolutely clear that the year is solar is in 1712

17.12. We have made the night and the day as two signs the sign of the night We have obscured, while the sign of the day we have made visible so that you may seek favors from your Lord, and so that you may know the number of years and the calculation, and We have explained all things in detail.

Given that night and day is certainly determined by the sun and not the moon, the sign in 1712 leaves absolutely no doubt that the year is solar.

Both verses use "know the number of years and the calculation" in the same sense. The explanation that Br. Ayman gave for the firse verse that, "the learning of the number of years and calculation are helped by either or both the sun and the moon", does seem to apply to the second verse as well.

On a side note, I found this article on Miraclesofthequran.com, which I post here

CALCULATING THE LUNAR YEAR

It is He Who appointed the sun to give radiance, and the moon to give light, assigning it phases so you would know the number of years and the reckoning of time. Allah did not create these things except with truth. We make the Signs clear for people who know. (Qur'an, 105)

And We have decreed set phases for the moon, until it ends up looking like an old date branch. (Qur'an, 3639)

In the first of the above verses, Allah has clearly revealed that the Moon will be a means of measurement for people to calculate the year. Furthermore, our attention is also drawn to the fact that these calculations will be performed according to the positions of the Moon as it revolves in its orbit. Since the angles between the Earth and Moon and the Moon and Sun constantly change, we see the Moon in different forms at different times. Furthermore, our ability to see the Moon is made possible by the fact that it is illuminated by the Sun. The amount of the lighted half of the Moon we see from Earth changes. Bearing in mind these changes, a number of calculations can be made, making it possible for human beings to measure the year.

In former times a month was calculated as the time between two full moons, or the time it took the Moon to travel around the Earth. According to this, one month was equal to 29 days, 12 hours and 44 minutes. This is known as the "lunar month." Twelve lunar months represent one year, according to the Hijri calendar. However, there is a difference of eleven days between the Hijri calendar and the Gregorian calendar, in which a year is the time it takes the Earth to orbit the Sun. Indeed, attention is drawn to this difference in another verse

They stayed in their Cave for three hundred years and added nine. (Qur'an, 1825)

We can clarify the time referred to in the verse thus 300 years x 11 days (the difference which forms every year) = 3,300 days. Bearing in mind that one solar year lasts 365 days, 5 hours, 48 minutes and 45.5 seconds, 3,300 days/365.24 days = 9 years. To put it another way, 300 years according to the Gregorian calendar is equal to 300+9 years according to the Hijri calendar. As we can see, the verse refers to this finely calculated difference of 9 years. (Allah knows best.) There is no doubt that the Qur'an, which contains such pieces of information, which transcended the everyday knowledge of the time, is a miraculous revelation.

http//www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_13.html

Not entirely sure if this is of any significance or relevance, but it looked like food for thought.

I will leave brother Ayman to carry on the discussion with you because now that the old Sharp is back, it should be an interesting discussion. handshake

)... I wouldn't get your hopes up, if I were you, because I don't think I'll bring anything new to the table that Br. Ayman has already heard or read. I'll just go through this thread, jot down my questions as and when they arise, and see if they were addressed by him or anybody else in the thread or his article. If not, then I post a question, otherwise, I don't want to bother him by asking him the same questions that he or anybody else has already answered repeatedly over and over again.

truthseeker11

Peace Br. Sharp,

Sorry for the late modification of my above post but your theory got me thinking. I will re-post the relevant portion that you missed with some minor changes

my line of thinking appears to be based on the fact that the "year" starts on the day after the "Shahar Ramadan" and ends on the night of the next "Shahar Ramadan"

Now everyone can see why I am a Sharp fan. This Sharp theory is the best attack I have ever seen on Ayman theory bravo bravo bravo It has gotten me excited on this topic again !!

This theory will pass the 936 test with flying colors !! One always counts 12 lunar cycles from one shahr ramadhan to start of the next. Once every 3 years there will be thirteen shahrs (lunar cycles) from the start of the first cycle (shahr ramadhan) until the end of the last lunar cycle before the next shahr ramadhan cycle but the thirteenth shahr is then skipped. INGENIOUS theory but it has some problems as I will discuss later.

Ayman theory of counting 12 nearly full moons in a solar year passes this test also. So this point is a draw !!

The year will be synchronized to the seasons in both theories and hunting restriction in the inviolable shuhoor will not be violated. I just realized that. So this will be a draw between the two theories also !!

One will have to witness the whole shahr ramadhan cycle of 29-30 days first and can then abstain for a few days starting from the second full moon at the end of shahr ramadhan and complete the count of the few days by abstaining for ten days. This would pass the 2185 test also !!

This point is a draw also between Ayman theory and Sharp theory !!

If I tell you today that I was born in March, and tomorrow I tell you that on the night I was born there was a Full Moon, (A) Would you take the first statement to mean that I was born through-out the month? (B) Would the statements be contradictory to each other?

So basically what I was trying to say is if] the time frame of "Ramadan" started from witnessing of the "Scorching Full Moon" and ended at the witnessing of the next "Full Moon", and the Book was sent down on the night of the 'Scorching Full Moon", which falls into that time frame, then the verse mentioning that the Book being sent down in the "month" of Ramadan doesn't automatically imply that it was sent down throughout the "month".

I will accede this point because it can go either way.

Shahr ramadhan allathee unzila fihi al-qur'an can also be used to refer to descent in one night of the lunar cycle of shahr ramadhan so it wouldnt contradict either Ayman theory or Sharp theory !! So this point is a draw also between the two theories !!

There are two problems however with Sharp theory. If it was not for the signs mentioning the menstrual periods to determine interim compared to count of shahr determining the interim and the sign mentioning night and day as the sole determinants of the solar year, Sharp theory would have been a complete draw with Ayman theory !!

Sharp theory makes the year primarily lunar whereas according to 1712 it is primarily solar. According to 1712 one should be able to determine the year using only day and night and the only way to do that is from one solstice to the next and not from one shahr ramadhan to the next.

One point to Ayman theory !!

Shahr has been used in the same way as a woman's menstrual period in the relevant signs. The women are asked to use their menstrual periods as markers to determine the interim after divorce. If a menstruating woman waits for three menstrual periods that time interval will be similar to waiting for three nearly full moons i.e. both will be almost two lunar cycles plus the time before the first period or the first nearly full moon. If "shahr" means the interval between two nearly full moons, then the interim of the post menopausal woman will be one lunar cycle more than that of a menstruating woman which does not make any sense.

One point to Ayman theory !!

End result

Ayman theory wins by 2-0 with four draws !!

quickduck

Peace all,
Here is my latest understanding for 105
It is He Who appointed the sun to give radiance, and the moon to give light, assigning it in phases so you would know the number of years and the Calculation. Allah did not create these things except with truth. We make the Signs clear for people who know.

For me, God Appointed TWO things for TWO purposes. The sun to know the number of years AND the moon to know how to calculate. TWO things for TWO purposes.

example in the restaurant, the waiter gives you a knife AND a fork , to be able to cut AND pick the meat.

So in my point of view, the sun is for knowing the number of years (the year is solar) and the moon for calculating (waiting periods, fasting, interim,etc...)

I hope this is clear , and in accordance with other verses that you already know as well.

salam

truthseeker11

Peace everyone,

Here is my latest understanding for 105
It is He Who appointed the sun to give radiance, and the moon to give light, assigning it in phases so you would know the number of years and the Calculation. Allah did not create these things except with truth. We make the Signs clear for people who know.

For me, God Appointed TWO things for TWO purposes. The sun to know the number of years AND the moon to know how to calculate. TWO things for TWO purposes.

example in the restaurant, the waiter gives you a knife AND a fork , to be able to cut AND pick the meat.

So in my point of view, the sun is for knowing the number of years (the year is solar) and the moon for calculating (waiting periods, fasting, interim,etc...)

I hope this is clear , and in accordance with other verses that you already know as well.

bravo bravo bravo

I am becoming a quickduck fan also !!

Sharp001

Br. TS,

Now everyone can see why I am a Sharp fan. This Sharp theory is the best attack I have ever seen on Ayman theory bravo bravo bravo It has gotten me excited on this topic again !!

Thanks for the compliment and all, but I don't think I'm anybody new who presented this "theory". Now that I'm re-reading the thread, most of my questions and observations mirror what Sis. Marie made in the first 3 pages of this topic.

Sharp theory makes the year primarily lunar whereas according to 1712 it is primarily solar. According to 1712 one should be able to determine the year using only day and night and the only way to do that is from one solstice to the next and not from one shahr ramadhan to the next.

I'm still trying to understand the connection between the signs of the night and the day with the year being solar. Br. Ayman reasoned that the night and the day are both functions of the Sun. How was that conclusion reached?

Shahr has been used in the same way as a woman's menstrual period in the relevant signs. The women are asked to use their menstrual periods as markers to determine the interim after divorce. If a menstruating woman waits for three menstrual periods that time interval will be similar to waiting for three nearly full moons i.e. both will be almost two lunar cycles plus the time before the first period or the first nearly full moon. If "shahr" means the interval between two nearly full moons, then the interim of the post menopausal woman will be one lunar cycle more than that of a menstruating woman which does not make any sense.

As I mention in an earlier post of mine,

(1) The meaning of the word "Shahar" has been debated about a lot in the discussion. Some say it means "Full Moon", others contend that it means "Month". Don't know if there are other meanings which have been attributed to the word, but these seem to enjoy most popularity. So, I looked up the root word used throughout the Book to see the context that it's been used in different places, namely 2185, 2194, 2197, 2217, 2226, 2234, 492, 52, 597, 92, 95, 936, 3412, 4615, 584, 654 & 973, and used both "Full Moon" and "Month" to translate. In all instances, it gave me the impression of a time frame, although in some verses, a significance was attached to these time frames, i.e. "Shahru Ramadana" (2185) and "Alshahra Alharam" (2194, 2217, 52, 597, 95). "Shahar" could very well be a time frame between two markers, which would make sense, for the sake of continuing consistency and giving structure to time measurement. Whatever markers are used, the time frame between them would be the same, I believe. Correct me, if I'm mistaken.

If "Shahar" is taken in the sense a period between two markers, then in the case of 654 it can be understood as the period between one event of Menstruation to the next.

1st Menstruation - 2nd Menstruation = 1st Shahar (Approx. 28 days)
2nd Menstruation - 3rd Menstruation = 2nd Shahar (Approx. 28 days)
3rd Menstruation - 4th Menstruation = 3rd Shahar (Approx. 28 days)

Br. QD

Peace all,
Here is my latest understanding for 105
It is He Who appointed the sun to give radiance, and the moon to give light, assigning it in phases so you would know the number of years and the Calculation. Allah did not create these things except with truth. We make the Signs clear for people who know.

For me, God Appointed TWO things for TWO purposes. The sun to know the number of years AND the moon to know how to calculate. TWO things for TWO purposes.

example in the restaurant, the waiter gives you a knife AND a fork , to be able to cut AND pick the meat.

So in my point of view, the sun is for knowing the number of years (the year is solar) and the moon for calculating (waiting periods, fasting, interim,etc...)

I hope this is clear , and in accordance with other verses that you already know as well.

salam

What if we apply the same logic to 1712?

And We made the night and the day as two signs, so We erased the sign of night and We made the sign of day to see-in, that you may seek bounty from your Lord, and that you may know the number of the years and the count. And everything We have detailed completely.

Wouldn't that mean the sign of the night would be used to know the number of years and the sign of the day be used to know the count?

Peace and thank you all for indulging me.

farida

Dear sister farida. salam

Yes! because the country is plagued with 180 million (minus a few) sunni sectarians, siki

Roman Salute Siki,

yuck Your style is not much different from the white supremacists or illuminates who are eager to cleanse the world of ?the plague?.
I guess you are too consumed with hatred to be reminded of the language when referring to

But how come you ignored when I told you all the roots...

Just- like- YOU

from sh ha ra, in urdu, like shoharat, Mashhoor, ishtihar etc, all originating and meaning "advertisement" , "something obvious" , " kind of some thing which makes its presence known even if you are not interested in it"?

hmm In that case could you provide me with your source beside wiki to confirm that the Hellenic calendars, the Hebrew Lunisolar calendar and the Islamic Lunar calendar did not consider the first appearance of the thin crescent of the new moon as shoharat, Mashhoor, ishtihar, for a new month

I am shocked to see that you prefer to understand divine message through a man made book,

And be even more shocked o that I refuse to count ?AAiddata alshshuhoori? with a manmade sundial or a gnomon or any tall vertical object. nope

If you have to stick with ?passed on" practices, which in all likelihood have been morphed/ corrupted,

) Let me share with you which ?passed on? practice I follow Every day at dawn I read Qur?an for the signs and this morning I witnessed today?s lesson in Surah 33
66 On the Day when their faces will be turned over in the Fire, they will say "Oh, we wish we had obeyed God, and obeyed the messenger
67- And they will say "Our Lord, we have obeyed our leaders and our learned ones, but they misled us from the path."
68- Our Lord, give them double the retribution, and curse them with a mighty curse
69-O you who believe, do not be like those who harmed Moses, but then God cleared him of all they said, and he was honorable before God.
70-O you who believe, be aware of God and speak only the truth
71- He will then direct your works, and forgive your sins. And whosoever obeys God and His messenger has triumphed a great triumph
72 -We have offered the trust to the heavens and the Earth, and the mountains, but they refused to bear it, and were fearful of it. But the human being accepted it; he was transgressing, ignorant
73- So that God may punish the hypocrite men and the hypocrite women, and the men who set up partners and the women who set up partners. And God redeems the believing men and the believing women. And God is Forgiver, Merciful

Scope of this forum is to re-study and purify the understanding of divine message, disregarding all existing baggage, purely on logic and evidence.

You may take this forum to be your leader for restudying, re-doing and disregarding the system established by the honourable messengers, but I, purely on logic and evidence see this forum very differently from you.

," You have not understood the spirit behind this forum, and in my opinion

Sir you are an old established original member of Ayman club so you obviously have better insight of the spirit behind this forum.

your time spent here probably has been thoroughly wasted.
Or maybe, my time here is thoroughly wasting your efforts
peace

farida

105 He is the One who made the sun an illuminator, and the moon a light, and He measured its phases so that you would know the number of the years and the calculation. God has not created this except for truth. He details the signs for a people who know.

Not sure if the verse says the sun has stages, but that could just mean for calculating the day. Tell me, ayman, is the thing about phases for the moon or the sun?

Salaam Progressive,
Do you really expect Ayman's club members to pay attention to anything which would negate their theory nope
618 Their intention is to extinguish Allah's Light with their mouths But Allah will complete His Light, even though the Unbelievers may detest (it).
peace
ps I may be banned soon as I have offended the Moderators & pr