Quran only?
-
I haven't been keeping up with this thread but i thought i'd reply to you becarefull- knowledge
now before i reply i want to ask, how do you or muslims obey God? serious question.
Lets assume you're right and hadith collection started at the time of the prophet. why didn't the prophet verify them?
I believe you're wrong in saying that Quran was written after the death of the prophet, hadith shows contrary to this. Remember the story of Umar ibn khattab how he become muslim, his sister had quranic verses, others did also. Quran was there while prophet was alive.What gives Bukhari the ultimate superiority of verification? if you read ahadith from albukhari and you read ahadith from Quran, you will inevitably notice quite a difference, even contradictions. Also, there are sunni scholars who argue against Bukhari's verifications such as Albani. Even shia's argue against the authority of Bukhari's collection and Bukhari is considered the "MOST" authentic. why do muslism seek a source that is fallible to a source that is authentic? it seems odd.
So you're of the belief because we don't adhere to contradicting religious regulations in hadith that makes us deviants because we dont follow the supposed way of Mohammed? where is the proof that hadith = sunnah? Bukhari's ahadith are not just limited to the Prophet Mohammed you will see alot of commentary of Abu Huraira in it, even comments by Omar (possibly others, haven't looked that far). sounds to me it has become hadith and sunnah of al sahabi and their views of the prophets practices.
apparently in hadith Aisha said the prophet was the walking Quran, so why would it be wrong to follow Quran? we obey the messenger by following the Quran..
Salam
-
I believe that muhamad PBUH conveyed the Quran, explained it and in addition to guiding us through this short life of ours which is full of seen and unseen obstacles. you my friend have prevented your self of this vast knowledge and I believe there will be signs in your life.
no other reason that Allah commands us to folllow him and his prophet. Him=Quran his prophet=hadithPeace Becarefull Knowledge
Who teaches the Qur'an?
Please read
Surah 39 verse 23 (3923)
Surah 39 verse 55 (3955)
Surah 87 verse 6 (876)
Surah 2 verse 282 (2282)Who Explains?
123
2776Who guides us?
226
2142
2213
2272
516
688
7155
7178
109
1025
1035
1327
144
1693
1797
1817
2050
2216
2446
2678
2763
2856
346
358
3923
3937
4213
4630
646
7431
873Have a look, and May Allah Guide us all aright
Peace
-
WHat is explained, 4 ayats were quoted here and the last one in bold type.
I dont know which translation you are using but this is Yusuf Ali version
29. "He did lead me astray from the Message (of Allah. after it had come to me! Ah! the Evil One is but a traitor to man!" Then the Messenger will say-
"O my Lord! Truly my people took this Qur'an for just foolish nonsense."
-
Thus have We made for every prophet an enemy among the sinners but enough is thy Lord to guide and to help.
You guys must love this ayat in YOUR translation 'my people rejected this Quran', and want to make a new religion based on it. you cant , you cannot make up such a dynamic inference based on 1 ayat you have to read before and after and ponder the general meaning
Peace becarefull-knowledge
Does not matter what translation you take the message is still the same. However, if you hold Yusuf Ali translation over other translations lets use that for now.
251 Blessed is He who sent down the criterion to His servant, that it may be an admonition to all creatures;-
(251) mentions of the criterion sent down to us from God. I ask you what is this criterion in your opinion?
254 But the misbelievers say "Naught is this but a lie which he has forged, and others have helped him at it." In truth it is they who have put forward an iniquity and a falsehood.
So what was the lie he forged here? The Quran or Hadiths? What do you think they (misbelievers) were objecting to at the time?
256 Say "The (Qur'an) was sent down by Him who knows the mystery (that is) in the heavens and the earth verily He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
Its clear that it was the Quran sent down by God and not the Quran + hadith to explain the Quran. Lets not forget, the Quran will be made clear to who ever God wills it to be clear to, so there is noway anyone could make footnotes to the Quran to help with its explanation as they will probably cause more confusion.2517 The day He will gather them together as well as those whom they worship besides God, He will ask "Was it ye who let these My servants astray, or did they stray from the Path themselves?"
2518 They will say "Glory to Thee! not meet was it for us that we should take for protectors others besides Thee But Thou didst bestow, on them and their fathers, good things (in life), until they forgot the Message for they were a people (worthless and) lost."
Here we can see that people have strayed from the path after the message was revealed to them. We can possibly conclude that the message was clearly a book from God, or was it a Book from God with a few things added on by the messenger? Who knows.2520 And the apostles whom We sent before thee were all (men) who ate food and walked through the streets We have made some of you as a trial for others will ye have patience? for God is One Who sees (all things).
As we can see that apostles were men just like me and you not some superhuman being portrayed by some of the hear-say.
2527 The Day that the wrong-doer will bite at his hands, he will say, "Oh! would that I had taken a (straight) path with the Apostle!
Which path was that? The path to teach us the Quran which was revealed to him.2529 "He did lead me astray from the Message (of God) after it had come to me! Ah! the Evil One is but a traitor to man!" Then the Apostle will say
Who lead who astray from the Message (of God)? God gave us the Quran and after it had come to us we lead astray, by whom? Well the Evil One (devil). You see that the Devil could not directly change Gods word (Quran), how else can he make us astray from the message? Get them to follow other things besides Quran alone.
2530 "O my Lord! Truly my people took this Qur'an for just foolish nonsense."
All around the world people recite the Quran and do not really know what it is saying. People spend hours memorising a book because they have been told it is rewarding to them but what is the message? Surely there is a message to be understood from the book so read to understand, it is not a book of magic spells but rather a book of guidance through its understanding.
I ask you this, if people only followed the Quran and obeyed the massager who taught us how to follow Quran only, would we be so divided? Today we look at the muslim world and what do we see? We see a divided picture, we see countries with riches beyond belief and then we see countries who?s people have been displaced and starving, yet the riches or black gold given to countries to test them, what are they using it for? How can you justify an oil rich Arab who spends over ?200 million on a football club to buy players when there are charities around the world trying to collect a fraction of that money to feed, cloth and house the poor. I ask you to wake up people and free your minds over the control you been under. We all saw what happened to the poor people of Gaza, where was the powerful Umma then? They turned their backs because it was not their problem. Looking back at history, Islam was a powerful force, they had the first international university in the world, progressive people who had a strong enthuses on education, made contributions to many branches of science. What happened to that Islam world? We have been going backwards because of stupid beliefs.
Anyways, I hope I have been able to explain myself here. I am by no means saying that all the hear-say (hadiths) are wrong, there are good examples of how we can live our lives and conduct ourselves but we must use common sense and not follow blindly. I wish you all a good day, may God guide us in the right path.Peace
Hope -
-
Peace becarefull-knowledge
Does not matter what translation you take the message is still the same. However, if you hold Yusuf Ali translation over other translations lets use that for now.
251 Blessed is He who sent down the criterion to His servant, that it may be an admonition to all creatures;-
(251) mentions of the criterion sent down to us from God. I ask you what is this criterion in your opinion?
254 But the misbelievers say "Naught is this but a lie which he has forged, and others have helped him at it." In truth it is they who have put forward an iniquity and a falsehood.
So what was the lie he forged here? The Quran or Hadiths? What do you think they (misbelievers) were objecting to at the time?
256 Say "The (Qur'an) was sent down by Him who knows the mystery (that is) in the heavens and the earth verily He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
Its clear that it was the Quran sent down by God and not the Quran + hadith to explain the Quran. Lets not forget, the Quran will be made clear to who ever God wills it to be clear to, so there is noway anyone could make footnotes to the Quran to help with its explanation as they will probably cause more confusion.2517 The day He will gather them together as well as those whom they worship besides God, He will ask "Was it ye who let these My servants astray, or did they stray from the Path themselves?"
2518 They will say "Glory to Thee! not meet was it for us that we should take for protectors others besides Thee But Thou didst bestow, on them and their fathers, good things (in life), until they forgot the Message for they were a people (worthless and) lost."
Here we can see that people have strayed from the path after the message was revealed to them. We can possibly conclude that the message was clearly a book from God, or was it a Book from God with a few things added on by the messenger? Who knows.2520 And the apostles whom We sent before thee were all (men) who ate food and walked through the streets We have made some of you as a trial for others will ye have patience? for God is One Who sees (all things).
As we can see that apostles were men just like me and you not some superhuman being portrayed by some of the hear-say.
2527 The Day that the wrong-doer will bite at his hands, he will say, "Oh! would that I had taken a (straight) path with the Apostle!
Which path was that? The path to teach us the Quran which was revealed to him.2529 "He did lead me astray from the Message (of God) after it had come to me! Ah! the Evil One is but a traitor to man!" Then the Apostle will say
Who lead who astray from the Message (of God)? God gave us the Quran and after it had come to us we lead astray, by whom? Well the Evil One (devil). You see that the Devil could not directly change Gods word (Quran), how else can he make us astray from the message? Get them to follow other things besides Quran alone.
2530 "O my Lord! Truly my people took this Qur'an for just foolish nonsense."
All around the world people recite the Quran and do not really know what it is saying. People spend hours memorising a book because they have been told it is rewarding to them but what is the message? Surely there is a message to be understood from the book so read to understand, it is not a book of magic spells but rather a book of guidance through its understanding.
I ask you this, if people only followed the Quran and obeyed the massager who taught us how to follow Quran only, would we be so divided? Today we look at the muslim world and what do we see? We see a divided picture, we see countries with riches beyond belief and then we see countries who?s people have been displaced and starving, yet the riches or black gold given to countries to test them, what are they using it for? How can you justify an oil rich Arab who spends over ?200 million on a football club to buy players when there are charities around the world trying to collect a fraction of that money to feed, cloth and house the poor. I ask you to wake up people and free your minds over the control you been under. We all saw what happened to the poor people of Gaza, where was the powerful Umma then? They turned their backs because it was not their problem. Looking back at history, Islam was a powerful force, they had the first international university in the world, progressive people who had a strong enthuses on education, made contributions to many branches of science. What happened to that Islam world? We have been going backwards because of stupid beliefs.
Anyways, I hope I have been able to explain myself here. I am by no means saying that all the hear-say (hadiths) are wrong, there are good examples of how we can live our lives and conduct ourselves but we must use common sense and not follow blindly. I wish you all a good day, may God guide us in the right path.Peace
HopeIf everyone followed the Quran only, would that long war between Iran and Iraq ever have been fought? Would Iraq have ever invaded Saudi Arabia?
-
WHat is explained, 4 ayats were quoted here and the last one in bold type.
I dont know which translation you are using but this is Yusuf Ali version
29. "He did lead me astray from the Message (of Allah. after it had come to me! Ah! the Evil One is but a traitor to man!" Then the Messenger will say-
"O my Lord! Truly my people took this Qur'an for just foolish nonsense."
-
Thus have We made for every prophet an enemy among the sinners but enough is thy Lord to guide and to help.
You guys must love this ayat in YOUR translation 'my people rejected this Quran', and want to make a new religion based on it. you cant , you cannot make up such a dynamic inference based on 1 ayat you have to read before and after and ponder the general meaning
Give me ONE, JUST ONE, verse in the Quran that tells us to FOLLOW HADITHS. Also, what do you make of this verse?
1746 We place shields over their hearts, that they should not understand it, and deafness in their ears. If you mention your Lord (rabbaka) in (fee) the Quran alone (al quran wahdahu), they run away turning their backs in aversion.
Also, why would God have sent down a whole book and then make his messenger authorize books that are 100x bigger? Does this make sense? Is the Quran incomplete? Does it lack detail?
6114 "Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this Scripture fully detailed?" Those to whom We have given the Scripture know it is sent down from your Lord with truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.
6115 The word of your Lord has been completed with truth and justice; there is no changing/abrogating His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.
4221 Or do they have partners who decree for them a sharia which has not been authorized by God? If it were not for the word already given, they would have been judged immediately. Indeed, the transgressors will have a painful retribution.
-
-
Peace,
Just wanted to add some of my favourite verses to this discussion
Those who disbelieve among the People of the Book and the idolaters were not about to change their ways until they were sent clear evidence.... Yet those who were given the Scriputure became divided only after they were sent clear evidence though all they are ordered to do is WORSHIP GOD ALONE...(981-6)
That's all Allah asks us to do. If he wanted us to read the hadiths he would say so in his Qu'ran. God does not run out of words. He wouldn't write a vague message for us to interpret to mean follow the hadiths.
In actual fact there is a verse in The Qur'an when the Prophet tried to make up his own religious law and Allah shows him why this is wrong. I cannot remember the actual verse, does anyone else no what I'm talking about?
I don't need any other books in my faith. We haven't "made up a new religion". I submit to God Alone. THAT is true Islam, and I wouldn't have it any other way.
-
I mean sound hadiths as in perserved over time, proven in real life like the ones prohesizing a lot of the status of the world today and how we are near the Qiyama. and Yes Bukhari may Allah reward him for all his efforts and sacrifices
Could there be a chance of one or two inaccurate hadiths, maybe, will i reject the books of hadiths in its entiry absolutely not, i am mitigating a strong risk of the hellfire
how do I know the hadith have validity, I havent seen any that contradict the Quran and I am sure you have many bring and them on and lets discuss them
in addition, my favorite ayats in the quran is 'to those who believe we show clear signs'Really? None that you see that contradict the Qur'an???
How about
killing of apostates
the status of women
the hadith that says an adulterer must be stoned (not in Qur'an, lashing is the only punishment)
intercession -
Really? None that you see that contradict the Qur'an???
How about
killing of apostates
the status of women
the hadith that says an adulterer must be stoned (not in Qur'an, lashing is the only punishment)
intercessionAdding to the list that goes on and on
- Ablution
56 O you who acknowledge, when you rise to attend the contact prayer, then wash your faces and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you have had intercourse, then you shall bathe. If you are ill, or traveling, or you have excreted feces, or you have had sexual contact with the women, and you could not find water, then you shall do ablution from clean soil; you shall wipe your faces and your hands. God does not want to make any hardship over you, but He wants to cleanse you and to complete His blessings upon you that you may be appreciative.
Is this how you do your ablution?
Next point dietary laws
2173 He has only forbidden for you what is already dead, the blood, the meat of pig, and what was dedicated to other than God. Whoever finds himself forced out of need and without disobedience or animosity, there is no sin upon him. God is Forgiving, Compassionate.
Are these your only rules or did you add to God's law, which is, btw, idolatry?
2174 Surely, those who conceal what God has sent down of the book, and purchase with it a cheap price; they will not eat into their stomachs except the fire, and God will not speak to them on the day of Resurrection, nor will He purify them, and they will have a painful retribution.
-
That's all Allah asks us to do. If he wanted us to read the hadiths he would say so in his Qu'ran.
?He it is Who sent among the unlettered ones a Messenger from among themselves, reciting to them His ayaat, purifying them, and teaching them the Book and the Hikmah. And verily, they had been before in manifest error?
I am curious as to what you guys think the 'hikmah' is, arabic definition of hikma is knowledge? this is repeated in other verses.
-
If everyone followed the Quran only, would that long war between Iran and Iraq ever have been fought? Would Iraq have ever invaded Saudi Arabia?
If the people followed the Quran alone,
• There would have been no Iraq iran of saudi arabia why?
• because most of the sunna (excellence in human interactions, ie trade, neighborly goodwill..) with which the sahaba helped spread islam is missing from the equation
-
?He it is Who sent among the unlettered ones a Messenger from among themselves, reciting to them His ayaat, purifying them, and teaching them the Book and the Hikmah. And verily, they had been before in manifest error?
I am curious as to what you guys think the 'hikmah' is, arabic definition of hikma is knowledge? this is repeated in other verses.
peace
if you went to the doctors, complaining of pain, and the doctor gave you 1 box of pills, and said "here is a box of pills and a cure"
where is the cure?
peace
-
becarefull- knowledge,
You may wish to read
http//mahjoorquran.blogspot.com/2006/11/authority-of-al-quran-by-kashif-ahmed.htmlThe topic of what is "hikma" is discussed in it.
I read the section on Hikmah, he is not providing anything whatsover to disclaim that hikma is knowledge in addition to the Qruan. he quotes an ayat that is supposed to support this but see below for yusuf ali's version
Yusuf alis version
39. These are among the (precepts of) wisdom, which thy Lord has revealed to thee. Take not, with Allah, another object of worship, lest thou shouldst be thrown into Hell, blameworthy and rejected.
his version
"This is of what your Sustainer has revealed to you of ?Hikmah? (wisdom), and do not associate any other god with Allah lest you should be thrown into hell, blamed, cast away." (1739)IF Allah intended for us to know that the wisdom that Muhamad (PBUH) is bringing is the Quran itself and only the Quran, why didnt the Quran say the Quran and its wisdom as opposed the quran and the wisdom(hikmah)??
-
peace
if you went to the doctors, complaining of pain, and the doctor gave you 1 box of pills, and said "here is a box of pills and a cure"
where is the cure?
peace
If the doctor doesnt explain when, how and how many to take, you might just say I am sick i want this pain to disappear and will take 20 pills ovedose and die.
The cure is not just the pills but in the instruction, all medicine has toxicollogy studies to see what is a safe level and what has the most effect on a disease, and then doctors who assess you to see what best fits your needs. THey are part of the cure.
as you see from my example of the active ingredient (The pill) in this case the Quran, you need instructions or hikma as the Quran itself stated,to which explains what its teaching, which is the hadith,
you reject hadith, you reject half of the equation of Quran and hikma. you might just get it right but then you might get your self sick. the same applies spiritually if you are only using the Quran and using yourbiased vulnerable mental resource to interpret it vs the 'Hikmah' of Muhamad PBUH to do it for you (the Quran clearly details Muhamad's qualifications to do so). -
I read the section on Hikmah, he is not providing anything whatsover to disclaim that hikma is knowledge in addition to the Qruan. he quotes an ayat that is supposed to support this but see below for yusuf ali's version
Yusuf alis version
39. These are among the (precepts of) wisdom, which thy Lord has revealed to thee. Take not, with Allah, another object of worship, lest thou shouldst be thrown into Hell, blameworthy and rejected.
his version
"This is of what your Sustainer has revealed to you of ?Hikmah? (wisdom), and do not associate any other god with Allah lest you should be thrown into hell, blamed, cast away." (1739)IF Allah intended for us to know that the wisdom that Muhamad (PBUH) is bringing is the Quran itself and only the Quran, why didnt the Quran say the Quran and its wisdom as opposed the quran and the wisdom(hikmah)??
Br. BCKnowledge
I think I might be able to clarify this a bit.
I'm sure you're familiar with the names of Allah in the Quran. We see a couple of them in 13 (Ar-Rahman, Ar-Raheem). These names define Allah's attributes, "The All-Compassionate", "The All-Merciful". I believe you will agree to that.
Similar, The Quran has different names which are mentioned in the Book, which indicate its attributes. It's been called Furqan (The Criterion) and Quran (The Reading) among other things. Hikmah (The Wisdom) is simply another attribute of the Quran, which alludes to its importance to the believers.
-
becarefull- knowledge,
If you did in fact read all of the section on what is "hikma", you will have seen that "hikma" is an attribute of al-kitab, amongst other points made. But lets go to your apparent objection you have by quoting Yusuf Ali's translation. Please be aware Yusuf Ali is NOT the authority on Al Quran, and his translation is not perfect, like all translations. So, let me clarify for you
dhlika = singular masculine demonstrative pronoun
The above means it can only mean "this" or "that" NOT "these" so Yusuf Ali is 100% incorrect. So, let's translate it correctly
"This/that is of what your Sustainer has revealed to you of hikmah/wisdom...
It obviously refers to the ayatin/signs before this point. As you can see it clearly refutes your position.
Of course, that does not mean all possible hikma/wisdom is in Al Quran, as this claim would be nonsensical, hence the partitive "min" is used.
I recommend reading up on the history of hadith and sunna, e.g.
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Rethinking_Tradition_Modern_Islamic_Thought.htm -
Peace
Hikma is a very vast term which has been used in the Quran for the Quran itself ,for the Bible and Torah as well as for knowledge and science Practical and theoretical.- ( 1 / 686)
.
As per Lane Lexicon
Knowledge or science ,knowledge of true nature of things and action according to the requirements thereof, and therefore it is divided into intellectual and practical or a state or quality ,of the intellectual faculty.
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume2/00000253.pdf
Regards
- ( 1 / 686)
-
If the doctor doesnt explain when, how and how many to take, you might just say I am sick i want this pain to disappear and will take 20 pills ovedose and die.
The cure is not just the pills but in the instruction, all medicine has toxicollogy studies to see what is a safe level and what has the most effect on a disease, and then doctors who assess you to see what best fits your needs. THey are part of the cure.
as you see from my example of the active ingredient (The pill) in this case the Quran, you need instructions or hikma as the Quran itself stated,to which explains what its teaching, which is the hadith,
you reject hadith, you reject half of the equation of Quran and hikma. you might just get it right but then you might get your self sick. the same applies spiritually if you are only using the Quran and using yourbiased vulnerable mental resource to interpret it vs the 'Hikmah' of Muhamad PBUH to do it for you (the Quran clearly details Muhamad's qualifications to do so).Peace
Maybe the instructions are in with the pills? They usually are. Maybe you open the pills and didn't look hard enough for the intructions, in the excitement of it all.
So you think, "If the instructions are not in with the pills, then I will go looking elsewhere" so you go looking on the internet for the correct dosage and keep getting conflicting information.
By the way, have you ever thought about this statement? "The Qur'an is the authentic Hadith"
Hope this helps
May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us aright.
Peace
