PRAYER ACCORDING TO A UNIFIED REFORM ISLAMIC SOCIETY
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Thank you. It's very interesting. Does everybody agree on this ?
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Thank you. It's very interesting. Does everybody agree on this ?
No. And as it looks right now, there will no unified way of praying in the Quran alone community in the near future.
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http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/disproved_traditional_salat.htm
24/41 says that we all know our salat and tasbih 'instinctively'.
Are you a bird or a different animal?
2441 Do you not see that everything in the heavens and the earth, even the birds in formation, glorifies God? Each knows its salat and its tasbih. God is fully aware of everything they do.
God is speaking to us and describing other creatures.
At the moments I dont agree with all the words used in the following end note, but the second sentence is insightful
Shabbir Ahmed - End Note 17 (2441)
All creatures know their Salaat, their inborn Divinely programmed instincts. So, they can automatically strive (do their Tasbeeh) in the best way. But humans are not programmed with such inborn instincts. Given free will, they must do their Salaat by following the revealed guidance and thus strive (do Tasbeeh) in the best way. -
2441 Do you not see that everything (literally, whomever) in the heavens and the earth, and the birds in formation, glorifies God? Each knows its salat and its tasbih. God is fully aware of everything they do.
Are you seriously suggesting that the 'each' and 'they do' refers to just birds? This verse just talks about birds and creatures? Where is creature here?
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2441 Do you not see that everything (literally, whomever) in the heavens and the earth, and the birds in formation, glorifies God? Each knows its salat and its tasbih. God is fully aware of everything they do.
Are you seriously suggesting that the 'each' and 'they do' refers to just birds?
Why not? Why do you think that birds are specifically mentioned? Why is 'each' mentioned after the birds? I think that the thing with the birds is just an example. God clarifies with "do you not realize/see...the earth" that everything glorifies Him. Then he gives a specific example birds. Why do you not think this is a possibility?
Anyways..lets not get too nitpicky what do you believe 'salat' means in this verse?
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Why do you think that birds are specifically mentioned? Why is 'each' mentioned after the birds? I think that the thing with the birds is just an example
Right, they are just an example.
It literally says 'min fil samawaati wa alarzi...' 'from in the heavens and the earth'. That's why I take it to mean everything. Especially in conjunction with 22/18.
To me each refers to 'min fil samawaat wa alzi...'. Your interpretation could be a possibility, but what do you make of 22/18? Doesn't fit there to me
Anyways..lets not get too nitpicky
Agreed.
what do you believe 'salat' means in this verse?
That we know it instinctively. This is why, to me, we don't have specific instructions on how to perform as-salat.
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Right, they are just an example
It literally says 'min fil samawaati wa alarzi...' 'from in the heavens and the earth'. That's why I take it to mean everything. Especially in conjunction with 22/18.
Interesting logic.
To me each refers to 'min fil samawaat wa alzi...'. Your interpretation could be a possibility, but what do you make of 22/18? Doesn't fit there to me
- in 2218 many things are mentioned - like a list. In 2441 only birds are given as an EXAMPLE.
That we know it instinctively. This is why, to me, we don't have specific instructions on how to perform as-salat.
That doesnt answer my question.
Here it is againWhat do you believe 'salat' means in this verse? Or in other words what would you translate 'salat' in that verse as?
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- in 2218 many things are mentioned - like a list. In 2441 only birds are given as an EXAMPLE.
And?
What do you believe 'salat' means in this verse? Or in other words what would you translate 'salat' in that verse as?
Oh, ok. Means can be taken a couple of different ways...
Bond.
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Thank you. It's very interesting. Does everybody agree on this ?
Peace,
Of course everyone doesnt agree wit it. Only those who believe and are being led by the spirit would agree. You should agree and leave the others alone. And how could anyone not agree? Do you see? peace
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Does there really have to be a set pattern for prayer or is just that we really need to just take time to pray to Allah during the two or three times a day that we set aside for Allah in spiritual worship, praise, prayers, contemplation and the reading of the Qur'an ? I believe since there is no mentioning in the Qur'an a prescribed way of performing prayer, that we are really to spend time doing our own form of prayer with are minds on Allah. Wether one wants to start by reciting in prayer the opening chapter and bow and kneel, then only to sit in contemplation on Allah and then reading of the Qur'an. Maybe there doesn't need to be uniformity in prayer with the believers just as long as they are together at the prescribed times for prayer is what counts. Does'nt necessarily mean physically together but just the fact that you know yourself that other submitters are praying to Allah at the same time. Then only is unity shown when at the times prescribed Allah is being worshiped by his submitters.
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Light seeker,
I think that there is such thing as a unified prayer, or a standard method of prayer, and a ritual method of prayer based on the following
To every nation We appointed acts of devotion which they observe, therefore they should not dispute with you about the matter and call to your Lord; most surely you are on a right way.
And when you journey in the earth, there is no blame on you if you shorten the prayer,
" And when you are among them and keep up the prayer for them, let a party of them stand up with you, and let them take their arms; then when they have prostrated themselves let them go to your rear, and let another party who have not prayed come forward and pray with you, and let them take their precautions and their arms;...."
O you who believe! when it is said to you, Make room in (your) assemblies, then make ample room, Allah will give you ample, and when it is said Rise up, then rise up. Allah will exalt those of you who believe, and those who are given knowledge, in high degrees; and Allah is Aware of what you do.
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Peace All
Does everyone in this discussion automatically assume that salat means prayer? I'm curious.
Imraan
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That's what I was told it meant
The word "salaat" actually means contact or connection, or, in some cases, commitment; it's just often related to prayer rituals among the modern Islaamic scholars and imaams. Prayer can be considered a form of "salaat", but "salaat" in itself is not prayer...
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That's what I was told it meant
It's ok, nearly all Muslims are told the same thing!
There are 99 occurrences in The Quran of the root sad-lam-waw, which make up the word "salat". When people are asked to determine how many occurrences clearly mean "prayer" they get stuck. I challenged quite a few in this forum, and the challenge has never been answered. Of course, some bring verses which allegedly have "prostrate" (Arabic sujud) in them, so when asked prove from The Quran "sujud" means "prostration" again they get stuck. From my studies there is only one verse which has a reasonable implication for it, and that is 339, albeit it is in the verb form "salla" and not "salat". The thing is, there are quite a few verses which show it cannot mean "prayer", and same for "sujud" showing it cannot mean "prostration". This basic finding is admitted by Traditional Muslims all the time, as one of the first questions they ask to a person who follows only The Quran is "but The Quran does not tell us how to pray, so how do you pray?" clearly showing they know their prayer version cannot be proven from The Quran.... but.... what if their prayer version/understanding is wrong? Reminds me of this scene in the film, The Matrix
http//www.whysanity.net/monos/matrix3.htmlMorpheus You take the blue pill (hadith) and the story ends. You wake in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill (al quran) and you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes.
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It's ok, nearly all Muslims are told the same thing!
There are 99 occurrences in The Quran of the root sad-lam-waw, which make up the word "salat". When people are asked to determine how many occurrences clearly mean "prayer" they get stuck. I challenged quite a few in this forum, and the challenge has never been answered. Of course, some bring verses which allegedly have "prostrate" (Arabic sujud) in them, so when asked prove from The Quran "sujud" means "prostration" again they get stuck. From my studies there is only one verse which has a reasonable implication for it, and that is 339, albeit it is in the verb form "salla" and not "salat". The thing is, there are quite a few verses which show it cannot mean "prayer", and same for "sujud" showing it cannot mean "prostration". This basic finding is admitted by Traditional Muslims all the time, as one of the first questions they ask to a person who follows only The Quran is "but The Quran does not tell us how to pray, so how do you pray?" clearly showing they know their prayer version cannot be proven from The Quran.... but.... what if their prayer version/understanding is wrong? Reminds me of this scene in the film, The Matrix
http//www.whysanity.net/monos/matrix3.htmlMorpheus You take the blue pill (hadith) and the story ends. You wake in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill (al quran) and you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes.
That is interesting, so there is no clear instruction in the Quran?
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That is interesting, so there is no clear instruction in the Quran?
There are various articles attempting to provide a prayer method based on The Quran. ALL the ones I have read simply use the traditional method as a guideline then pick and choose from The Quran to get something that resembles it, and embellish here and there, with no evidence..... in other words, if you started with The Quran and never knew of the traditional prayer method there is no way you would deduce such a method. Many Traditional Muslims do not even know the hadith itself does not contain a coherent method, and the only way to get a coherent method, is to pick and choose, e.g. see here. Thus, the obvious question that arises for any student of The Quran, and many, including myself, have to struggle with is if The Quran doesn't imply "salat" means prayer, never mentions anyone doing it, does not give the traditionally accepted method in it etc then what is going on? The answer is simple, yet takes time to digest "salat" does not mean "prayer". Literally hundreds of threads and perhaps thousands of pages have been about "salat" in this forum. You will never find it discussed in as much detail as it has been here. For my view, see here.
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There are various articles attempting to provide a prayer method based on The Quran. ALL the ones I have read simply use the traditional method as a guideline then pick and choose from The Quran to get something that resembles it, and embellish here and there, with no evidence..... in other words, if you started with The Quran and never knew of the traditional prayer method there is no way you would deduce such a method. Many Traditional Muslims do not even know the hadith itself does not contain a coherent method, and the only way to get a coherent method, is to pick and choose, e.g. see here. Thus, the obvious question that arises for any student of The Quran, and many, including myself, have to struggle with is if The Quran doesn't imply "salat" means prayer, never mentions anyone doing it, does not give the traditionally accepted method in it etc then what is going on? The answer is simple, yet takes time to digest "salat" does not mean "prayer". Literally hundreds of threads and perhaps thousands of pages have been about "salat" in this forum. You will never find it discussed in as much detail as it has been here. For my view, see here.
Thank you for that, it is very informative
