FIVE DAILY SALAWAT IN ISLAM AND ZOROASTRIANISM
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Peace Bigmo,
We should use our faculties of thinking and logical reasoning whereever necessary.
my logic says that the details on how to perform the duties must have been given clearly by God at the time of giving the commands itself
Yours truly,
K.Vivekanandan
YOUR faculties of thinking and YOUR logical resoning and not the Quran's. You have not even answered my question. Does the Quran say there is a way to pray? Does it say that God only recognizes a certain form of prayer? Did it even gives us any information where God did not accept a form of prayer because of the way it was performed and that it did not fulfill the proper form of a prayer?
Then where did you get that assumption from because its that assumption that your argument is all based on?
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Peace vivek
Peace Imraan,
My contention is based on logic and reason and without any biased notion. But your(the so-called muslims) contention is entirely based on pre-conceived notion and blind belief that the Quran has been preserved in toto even though the present Quran is incomplete in many respects Your contention grossly denies logic and reason.
Yours truly,
K.Vivekanandan
Please explain why your view is based on logic & reason. The mere statement by yourself is not sufficient proof. Please state the research & investigation you have done to come to your conclusions. Don't assume that my contention is illogical even though you have not asked me to provide the details you claim are missing in the quran. How do you know that my contention is illogical when you haven't even tested it?
Imraan
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Peace hope4,
Peace Vivek
Firstly I would like to see some proof that the Quran is not complete. Secondly this is what I believe; (I am not saying I am right and you are wrong, but merely trying to say I am not convinced with your argument so apologies in advance if I can?t see something you can see clearly);I would like you to read my posts on the subject in the links below
http//19.org/forum/index.php/t/7554/0/
http//19.org/forum/index.php/t/7580/0/the Quran says it is fully detailed
6114 ?Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to
you this Book fully detailed?? Those to whom We have given the
Book know it is sent down from your Lord with the truth; so do
not be of those who have doubt.What is said as the Quran being fully detailed is true and applies in the context of the original Quran but not the present altered Quran that is incomplete in many aspects due to loss of many portions.
I believe that the Quran is written in a way that it has a spiritual key to decode it. By this I mean the truth from the book will be revealed to who ever God wills and guides. This could be seen clearly by the following verses
20114 Then High above all is God, the King, the True. And do not be
hasty with the Recitation before its inspiration is completed to
you, and say ?My Lord, increase my knowledge.?
As we can see from 20114, we should pray to God to increase our knowledge and be patient.Yes, you are right. I also want to add that there are two types of meanings i.e 1. literal meaning (majority of verses) that can be understood even by a lay man and 2. allegorical meaning(verses in small numbers) that require deep understanding and special ability to understand and some of such type of verses cannot be understood by any human in its true sense.
It is very important to note that all verses that contain laws of God including for Salat, Zakat,etc fall under the first type of verses ie verses having literal meaning and not allegorical meaning. So we cal logically conclude that if details are not available on how to perform duties that were made obligatory, then the verses containing such details were lost.
Yours truly,
K.Vivekanandan
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Peace hope4,
I would like you to read my posts on the subject in the links below
http//19.org/forum/index.php/t/7554/0/
http//19.org/forum/index.php/t/7580/0/What is said as the Quran being fully detailed is true and applies in the context of the original Quran but not the present altered Quran that is incomplete in many aspects due to loss of many portions.
Yes, you are right. I also want to add that there are two types of meanings i.e 1. literal meaning (majority of verses) that can be understood even by a lay man and 2. allegorical meaning(verses in small numbers) that require deep understanding and special ability to understand and some of such type of verses cannot be understood by any human in its true sense.
It is very important to note that all verses that contain laws of God including for Salat, Zakat,etc fall under the first type of verses ie verses having literal meaning and not allegorical meaning. So we cal logically conclude that if details are not available on how to perform duties that were made obligatory, then the verses containing such details were lost.
Yours truly,
K.Vivekanandan
159 We, indeed We, it is We who have sent down the Reminder, and indeed it is We who will preserve it.
6114 Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt.
6115 The word of your Lord has been completed with truth and justice]; there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.
Do you think God cannot protect his book? Do you think God does not/cannot keep his promises? Do you think God is lying?
72 A book that has been sent down to you, so let there not be any burden in your chest from it, that you may warn with it; and a reminder to those who acknowledge.
73 Follow what was sent down to you all from your Lord, and do not follow besides Him any masters. Little do you remember!
111 ALR. A book whose signs have been ascertained, then detailed, from One who is Wise, Ever-aware.
What is said as the Quran being fully detailed is true and applies in the context of the original Quran but not the present altered Quran that is incomplete in many aspects due to loss of many portions.
618 They wish to put out God's light with their mouths. But God will continue with His light, even if the ingrates dislike it.
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Peace hope4,
I would like you to read my posts on the subject in the links below
http//19.org/forum/index.php/t/7554/0/
http//19.org/forum/index.php/t/7580/0/What is said as the Quran being fully detailed is true and applies in the context of the original Quran but not the present altered Quran that is incomplete in many aspects due to loss of many portions.
Yes, you are right. I also want to add that there are two types of meanings i.e 1. literal meaning (majority of verses) that can be understood even by a lay man and 2. allegorical meaning(verses in small numbers) that require deep understanding and special ability to understand and some of such type of verses cannot be understood by any human in its true sense.
It is very important to note that all verses that contain laws of God including for Salat, Zakat,etc fall under the first type of verses ie verses having literal meaning and not allegorical meaning. So we cal logically conclude that if details are not available on how to perform duties that were made obligatory, then the verses containing such details were lost.
Yours truly,
K.Vivekanandan
Peace Vivek
Thank you for your reply. I will when time permits, go through the links you gave. However, I agree with progressive1993
159 Indeed it is We who have sent down the Reminder, and indeed it
is We who will preserve it.As a result I must trust in God who says He will preserve it
2558 And put your trust in the Eternal Who does not die, and glorify
His praise. It is enough for Him that He is expert in the sins of His
servants.26217 And put your trust in the Noble, the Merciful.
If, and I really doubt it, any significant changes were made over the years God would have put that right to whom He pleases.Peace
Hope
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Peace hope4,
I would like you to read my posts on the subject in the links below
http//19.org/forum/index.php/t/7554/0/
http//19.org/forum/index.php/t/7580/0/What is said as the Quran being fully detailed is true and applies in the context of the original Quran but not the present altered Quran that is incomplete in many aspects due to loss of many portions.
Yes, you are right. I also want to add that there are two types of meanings i.e 1. literal meaning (majority of verses) that can be understood even by a lay man and 2. allegorical meaning(verses in small numbers) that require deep understanding and special ability to understand and some of such type of verses cannot be understood by any human in its true sense.
It is very important to note that all verses that contain laws of God including for Salat, Zakat,etc fall under the first type of verses ie verses having literal meaning and not allegorical meaning. So we cal logically conclude that if details are not available on how to perform duties that were made obligatory, then the verses containing such details were lost.
Yours truly,
K.Vivekanandan
But for many the level of detail is explained in the Quran. What you are talking about is a specific level of detail without showing why that level of detail must be there. I am asking is where is that assumption from? The Quran tells us many things but it does not see the need to explain everything in detail. Should there not be certain things we can deduce by ourselves?
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Peace Vivek
Thank you for your reply. I will when time permits, go through the links you gave. However, I agree with progressive1993
159 Indeed it is We who have sent down the Reminder, and indeed it
is We who will preserve it.As a result I must trust in God who says He will preserve it
2558 And put your trust in the Eternal Who does not die, and glorify
His praise. It is enough for Him that He is expert in the sins of His
servants.26217 And put your trust in the Noble, the Merciful.
If, and I really doubt it, any significant changes were made over the years God would have put that right to whom He pleases.Peace
Hope
Peace Hope4,
Now answer my 10 questions
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Do you think God can protect only the Quran but not other scriptures?
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If yes, do you believe that God has only limited power?
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If no, why God didn't protect all other scriptures of his?
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Do you think that God preferred the followers of Muhammad to the followers of all other prophets? Is preservation of the scripture the preregotive of Muslim community?
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If yes, why? Does God practice discrimination?
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If no, what is the reason for protecting the Quran alone?
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Do you believe that God gave uncondional guarantee for 100% preservation of the Quran?
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If yes, why did God warn Muhammad about the loss of the Quran?
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Again if yes, why did God prophesy in the Quran that God's wrath would be upon those who would alter the Quran?
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If no, then why you people carry out the false propagate that God promised the preservation of the Quran?
Yours truly,
K.Vivekanandan
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God promised to protect the Quran. That is what we know. We also know as per the Quran the other scriptures were altered so no, God let those scriptures be altered (imo this is part of Satan's promise to alter God's creation). Not because he liked it but because it was Satan's work and God lets those who are astray go astray. This is also a verse in the Quran.
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God promised to protect the Quran. That is what we know. We also know as per the Quran the other scriptures were altered so no, God let those scriptures be altered (imo this is part of Satan's promise to alter God's creation). Not because he liked it but because it was Satan's work and God lets those who are astray go astray. This is also a verse in the Quran.
Peace Meteora,
I want you to give direct answer to each of my 10 questions.
Yours truly,
K.Vivekanandan
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Now answer my 10 questions
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Do you think God can protect only the Quran but not other scriptures?
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If yes, do you believe that God has only limited power?
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If no, why God didn't protect all other scriptures of his?
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Do you think that God preferred the followers of Muhammad to the followers of all other prophets? Is preservation of the scripture the preregotive of Muslim community?
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If yes, why? Does God practice discrimination?
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If no, what is the reason for protecting the Quran alone?
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Do you believe that God gave uncondional guarantee for 100% preservation of the Quran?
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If yes, why did God warn Muhammad about the loss of the Quran?
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Again if yes, why did God prophesy in the Quran that God's wrath would be upon those who would alter the Quran?
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If no, then why you people carry out the false propagate that God promised the preservation of the Quran?
Yours truly,
K.Vivekanandan
Did God promise to protect other scriptures?
Why not just follow God's final, complete, perfect and fully detailed book - the Quran?
Where does it say that the Quran is going to be lost? Do you mean 2530, because that one talks about people like you who believe that the Quran is incomplete and go and find other sources beside the Quran.
Are you a Muslim or a Hindu? If you are a Hindu, then it is great that you are interested in the Quran, but dont tell me that it is incomplete.
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181 Praise be to God who sent down the book to His servant, and did not allow any flaw in it.
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That a specified worship five times a day is a God?s commandment given in all revealed religions is confirmed by the fact that a revealed religion known as Mazdayasni religion or commonly called Zoroastrianism which is the ancient religion of Iran enjoins a specified worship five times a day whose timing is based on the movement of Sun as in the case of Islam.
Zoroastrians call this specified worship ?Gah worship/prayer?. The term ?Gah? means ?period of time? or ?place?. So Gah worship means ?timed worship?. It is apparently a name given in latter days to Yasna which has to be performed five times daily in its respective times. In reality, Gah worship is nothing but Yasna in Avestan language which means Fire Oblation or Worship through fire/Fire based worship or Sacrifice. Its Sanskrit equivalent is Yajna as practiced in other revealed religion ?Hinduism?. This worship is called ?Incense Burning? or ?Burnt Offering? in Hebrew scriptures when it is named Salat in the Quran.
The striking similarity between Islam and Zoroastrianism in the timing of five daily worship is given below
Time/Islam/Zoroasrianism
Dawn/Fajr/Havaan
Noon/Zuhar/Rapithwan
Afternoon/Asr/Uziren
Evening/Maghrib/Aiwisuthrem
Night/Isha/UshaenCall for Five daily worship
Just like the believers are called for Salat in a Masjid by a Muezzin(caller) in Islam five times a day, the Zoroastrian believers are summoned by the ringing of a bell in the Atash Behram / Agiary / Fire Temple to perform Yasna(Gah worship) five times a day.
Ablution
Muslims are required to do ritual purification like washing face and limbs before commencing Salat. Likewise, Zoroastrians are required to do wash their face and limbs before commencing Yasna(Gah worship).
Head Cover
In the same way as Muslims cover their heads traditionally when performing Salat, Zoroastrians are required to cover their heads when performing Yasna(Gah worship).
Facing the Direction
The direction at which Muslims are to perform Salat is called the Qiblah in the Quran. In the Atashbehram/Agiary the room where the Atash Padshah(Sacred Fire) is enthroned is called the Keblaah in Zoroastrianism.
Reading/Reciting portions from Scripture
As Muslims are required to read/recite portions from the Quran in the original language of its revelation ie Arabic while performing Salat, Zoroastrians are required to read/recite portions from the Avesta(Gathas) in the original language of its revelation ie Avesta when performing Yasna(Gah worship).
Sacred Fire and Incense
The method of performing Yasna(Gah worship) done by Zoroastrians is as follows
1.Stand before the sacred fire enthroned on the fire altar in an Agiary /Fire Temple or sit or stand before the sacred fire ignited at the home fire altar;
- Read/recite portions from the scripture;
3.Burn the powdered herbals/incense on the sacred fire ie oblation into sacred fire.
It is where the so-called Muslims shunned the true Salat by substituting the sacred fire and offering incense as oblation into sacred fire with the acts of bowing and prostrating. This is how the sectarian Muslims lost the core part of Salat ie oblation into sacred fire and retained Salat only in the name.
Oh Vivek? Screw the sacred fire.
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What I'm trying to say is, being deeply in love with the materials rather than comprehending the message, one might as well throw themselves into the fire, or be thrown into it, since they love it so much, they should make love to it too.
Zoroastrianism went the path which hardens, when the meaning of the symbolism is perhaps lost, and it becomes about feeding a fire.
If someone ignorant responds "screw Allah!" they should know, I am not sexually attracted to Allah in the least bit, nor is there anything at all to be attracted to!
Those who love the fire should bathe in it thoroughly. Truly, bathing in fire is transformative! You'll come out looking like a new man!
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Salam Brother
is GOD a cow ?
this question is stupid right ? because GOD IS NOT A COW , but some people believe that GOD IS A COW ! so , do you have to believe that God is a cow because some people do ?
you explained the similarities between Zoroastrianism and TRADITIONAL ISLAM according to YOUR PERSPECTIVE which you have DECIDED IT EARLIER !
this is a simple question , I want to ask you
QURAN IS FULLY DETAILED
6114 Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you the Book fully detailed? Those to whom We have given the Book know it is sent down from your Lord with the truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.
GOD DOES NOT ERR OR FORGET
2052 He said The knowledge of it is with my Lord, in a record. My Lord does not err or forget.
GOD DOES NOT RUN OUT OF WORDS
3127 And if all the trees on the earth were made into pens, and the ocean were supplied by seven more oceans, the words of God would not run out. God is Noble, Wise.
DO YOU AGREE WITH THESE VERSES ?
if your answer was yes , please tell me , why did GOD mentioned only 3 ritual/contact prayers in Quran ?
1- Quran is not fully detailed , and the other 2 ritual prayers can be found in Hadith >>> FALSE ! 6114 tells that Quran is FULLY DETAILED
2- GOD errs and forgets , so he forgot to mention the other 2 ritual prayers >>> FALSE ! 2052 tells that GOD DOES NOT ERR OR FORGET
3- GOD runs out of words , He was tired and couldn't mention the other 2 ritual prayers >>> FALSE ! 3127 tells that GOD DOES NOT RUN OUT OF WORDS
and we know that GOD IS NOT A LIAR , HE DOES NOT ERR , FORGET or RUN OUT OF WORDS , PLEASE ! THINK CAREFULLY
and if any one found mistakes in my reply , please tell me , we can discuss the issue together
may ALLAH forgive us All and guide us
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Peace Kikotsu.
You said
why did GOD mentioned only 3 ritual/contact prayers in Quran ?You also said
and if any one found mistakes in my reply , please tell me , we can discuss the issue togetherI disagree with you. Where did you get that GOD did mention only 3 from?
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Kikotsu.
You said
why did GOD mentioned only 3 ritual/contact prayers in Quran ?You also said
and if any one found mistakes in my reply , please tell me , we can discuss the issue togetherI disagree with you. Where did you get that GOD did mention only 3 from?
GOD bless you.
Peace.Salam Brother and thank you for this nice question )
there are only 3 named ritual prayers in THE HOLY QURAN and they are
1- Dawn Prayer (Salat Al-Fajr) Mentioned in 2458
2- Night Prayer (Salat Al-Isha) Mentioned in 2485
3- The Middle Prayer (Al-Salat Al-Wusta) Mentioned in 2238
Peace )
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3- The Middle Prayer (Al-Salat Al-Wusta) Mentioned in 2238
If you can even translate "wusta" as middle... that is not very likely.
Be safe
Amenuel -
Peace everyone,
According to Hadith
When Mohammed met God in the seventh heaven through Miraj (an ascension to the heavens), God expected muslims to pray 50 times a day. But fortunately, Moses who was in the sixth heaven, advised Muhammad to reduce the number of prayers. By commuting from the seventh Heaven where God was located, to the sixth heaven where Moses was located, Muhammed was able to reduce the number of prayers even more.
My view
The story of Muhammad's journey/ascension to the sixth and seventh heaven seems to have no basis in the Quran. But this story can be found in Hadith (See Sahih Al-Bukhari 5.227). Since no verse in the Quran states that one must pray 5 times a day, it seems that the notion of 5 daily prayers has its origins in Hadith. The Quran mentions that Muhammad was on a journey, but the details of this journey is different from the details of the Miraj (ascension to the heavens) mentioned in Hadith. So the journey that Muhammad was on, seems to be a different type of journey, according to the Quran. As far as I know, no verse in the Quran states that Muhammad traveled to the sixth heaven to meet Moses and to the seventh heaven to meet God. Besides, the Quran seems to suggest that the only Miracle that was given to Muhammad was the Quran. In other words, it appears that Muhammad could not perform any miracles. If Muhammad could not perform any miracles, was he able to ascend to the sixth and seventh heaven? If my ask me, that sounds unlikely. In verse 1790, the quran seems to suggest that Muhammad's people would not believe in the message of God unless the messenger performed miracles.
Quran 1790-93 And they said "We will not believe unto you until you cause a spring of water to burst out of the ground." "Or that you have an estate of palm trees and grapes, and you cause gushing rivers to burst through it." "Or that you make the heaven fall upon us in pieces as you claimed, or that you bring God and the angels before us." "Or that you have a luxurious mansion, or that you can ascend into the heavens. We will not acknowledge your ascension unless you bring for us a book that we can study." Say, "Glory be to my Lord. Am I anything other than a human messenger!"
Also, some Muslim thinkers who have studied the Quran deeply, claim that Muhammad's journey was a spiritual journey. In other words, they don't believe that Muhammad's journey was a physical journey. It appears that some verses in the Quran are metaphorical (symbolic). But for some reason, a lot of muslims seem to take (interpret) all quranic verses literally.
From my understanding of the Quran, one must perform Salat 2 times each day. In verse 2458, the quran suggests that one must perform Salat at dawn (morning) and at dusk (night). In other words, verse 2458 seems to state that we one must perform Salat 2 times a day.
Quran mentions 2 daily salat
- Salat Al Fajr (morning).
- Salat Al Isha (Night).
Since the Quran is complete and detailed, I think that it would be prudent/sensible to only perform Salat 2 times a day.
To sum up, 5 daily Salat seems to have no basis in the Quran. The notion of 5 daily Salat seems to have its origins in Hadith. The Quran suggests that Muhammad could not perform any miracles. Hence, the notion that Muhammad ascended to the sixth and seventh heaven seems to be problematic/unlikely. Also, the quran suggests that one must perform Salat 2 times a day. And since the Quran is complete and detailed, it seems that one does not need to rely on extra quranic teachings (hadith etc.) in regards to how many times one must perform Salat each day.
