8:50 and 47:27 - 1400 years of misinterpretation solved?

Wakas

peace all,

As part of my re-analysis of Daad-Ra-Ba. See here for previous threads
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598540.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598953.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598972.0

Walaw tara ith yatawaffa allatheena kafaroo almala-ikatu yadriboona wujoohahum wa adbarahum wa thooqoo AAathaba al hareeqi
= And if you could but see when the angels/controllers* are taking (unto themselves, i.e. at death) those who reject striking their faces/fronts and backs and (say) "taste the penalty of the fire."

Fakayfa itha tawaffathumu almalaikatu yadriboona wujoohahum wa adbarahum
= So/then how (will it be) when the angels/controllers* take them (unto themselves, i.e. in death) striking their faces/fronts and their backs?

*angels is better translated as controllers, i.e. forces in control of certain functions/laws. There are some controllers we know about, e.g. those found in nature F=ma, E=mc? etc. and some we do not know about.

In the above two verses, translators commonly use "beat / strike / smite", and whilst this may seem acceptable on the surface this translation does have significant problems when examined more closely

In 850 it says if only you could see, thus clearly implying that what the controllers are doing cannot be seen. And since it is at the time of death, then the controllers cannot be striking the physical fronts/faces and backs as this would be observable. It could be suggested that at death, this is a special/unique transition phase so perhaps the controllers are indeed beating/striking but in a different form somehow, and the living simply cannot see it.
It causes problems with verses such as 737, 1628, 851, 693-94 in which the controllers are in communication with people being taken at death, and the ones taken are listening properly and answering, but this is highly unlikely if they are being beaten at the same time!
It causes a clear problem with 693 when it describes the controllers as stretching/extending forth or opening their hands/powers when taking them at death saying "Bring out your souls...". This sounds unlike striking/beating, and there is no implication of this in the verse at all.
If this is indeed a beating/striking causing pain in some way, then this would be the only example in The Quran of an explicit punishment between death and the Day of Judgement/Requital.
In contrast, the controllers take those who are good with a greeting of peace/salam in 1632 and there is no mention of taking them gently for example.

Thus, is there possibly a more suitable translation? Whatever the controllers are doing it is to their "fronts and backs" and this creates an imagery of a complete surrounding, coming at them from all directions, i.e. there is no escape. This imagery is similar to 693 mentioned above. Further, see 661 and 2139. The only other occurrence of the exact same form "yadriboona" is in 7320 in which it means journey or go/move about in the land. Thus, taking the evidence into account, the Classical Arabic meanings of DRB and its usage in The Quran, it could be translated as the controllers set/march on or put forth or go/move about their fronts and backs, i.e. come at them from all directions. Even the English translation of "strike" has similar imagery to this, but "beat" does not. That is not to say it cannot mean "beat", it theoretically could, but it is not a particularly sound translation when cross-referenced.
As a side note, in M. Asad's notes, he says Razi saw this phrase as an allegory "They have utter darkness behind them and utter darkness before them", suggesting he did not agree with the commonly stated understanding of beating/striking literally.

http//quranix.net/
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

Comments/feedback welcome.

Mazhar

Walaw tara ith yatawaffa allatheena kafaroo almala-ikatu yadriboona wujoohahum wa adbarahum wa thooqoo AAathaba al hareeqi
= And if you could but see when the angels/controllers* are taking (unto themselves, i.e. at death) those who reject striking their faces/fronts and backs and (say) "taste the penalty of the fire."

Fakayfa itha tawaffathumu almalaikatu yadriboona wujoohahum wa adbarahum
= So/then how (will it be) when the angels/controllers* take them (unto themselves, i.e. in death) striking their faces/fronts and their backs?

Dear Wakas, salaam,

Consider these as the scene of the Day of Resurrection and these would become simple and clear. "tawaffathumu" is not death but to segregate, alienate the criminals from the crowd of people. Just watch some mob where Police is getting hold of wanted people and taking them out of the crowd.

herbman

proto-root initially means "move"

here are example with the same proto-root

flowed
soaked
escaped
approached
departed

hope it helps

Q_student

proto-root initially means "move"

here are example with the same proto-root

flowed
soaked
escaped
approached
departed

hope it helps

Peace
What about these

Regards

herbman

Peace Q_student ,

you are right non of your words has the meaning of moving, never mind you can find hundreds of words with RB but for DAD-RA-BA one of the meaning is "travel" which is confirmed by the proto-root.

Proto-roots are the ancestors of the roots and are bi-letters, it can sometimes help to find the meaning of a word but is not 100% effective as you demonstrated.

regards

Q_student

Peace Q_student ,

you are right non of your words has the meaning of moving, never mind you can find hundreds of words with RB but for DAD-RA-BA one of the meaning is "travel" which is confirmed by the proto-root.

Proto-roots are the ancestors of the roots and are bi-letters, it can sometimes help to find the meaning of a word but is not 100% effective as you demonstrated.

regards

Peace
Language is not based on self concocted concepts
Regards

herbman

Peace
Language is not based on self concocted concepts
Regards

it is not "a self concocted concepts".

Q_student

it is not "a self concocted concepts".

Peace
Classical arabic is an established and vast language.
Dharaba ( ) = travel
you need to prove through classical arabic work.
BTW what is meant by

According to you self concocted theory which meaning is drawn from this sentence /
regards

herbman

Peace Q_Student

I know where you coming from, so for you all the occurrences of in the Quran can only mean "to beat".

BTW this is the subject of the thread.

Q_student

Peace Q_Student

I know where you coming from, so for you all the occurrences of in the Quran can only mean "to beat".

BTW this is the subject of the thread.

Peace
"Beauty needs no ornaments "
I have given a sentence ,translate it according to travel (self concocted meaning) theory. Why are you reluctant to translate this sentence?

Regards

herbman

Peace
"Beauty needs no ornaments "
I have given a sentence ,translate it according to travel (self concocted meaning) theory. Why are you reluctant to translate this sentence?

Regards

I said yes in that context it means "to beat"
But it is only one of the meaning for and I said that the etymology of the word originally means "move" as by proto-root.

Now you show me in the following from the Quran also means "to beat"

peace

herbman

or I should have simply taken the example from 7320

In any case I don't understand what you are trying to prove here, the fact is the original meaning is "move" then words evolve to what ever meanings depending on context and situations.

peace

Q_student

I said yes in that context it means "to beat"
But it is only one of the meaning for and I said that the etymology of the word originally means "move" as by proto-root.

Now you show me in the following from the Quran also means "to beat"

peace

Peace
This is "Dharaba mathalan" . This is well known arabic phrase written and explained in very classical dictionary .
We are not talking about phrases /idioms of the this verb. We are talking about only about the verb "dharaba".
To break
To break out
To break the ice
All of the above have different meaning.
This is basic priniciple of the language.
"To beat" is the meaning of the word "dharaba". Look at the Lane's Lexicon.
It means you have to learn the difference between parent verb and its idiomatic expression and you are commenting on the language usages.
Regards

unknownuser

Peace everyone

how would we translate the following

peace

herbman

Peace
This is "Dharaba mathalan" . This is well known arabic phrase written and explained in very classical dictionary .
We are not talking about phrases /idioms of the this verb. We are talking about only about the verb "dharaba".
To break
To break out
To break the ice
All of the above have different meaning.
This is basic priniciple of the language.
"To beat" is the meaning of the word "dharaba". Look at the Lane's Lexicon.
It means you have to learn the difference between parent verb and its idiomatic expression and you are commenting on the language usages.
Regards

Salam, Peace,

No you are wrong "dharaba"= "To beat" is one of the meanings, see Lane's Lexicon.

Now let me explain you my point of view

let's take some of the meanings of "dharaba" from Al Quran (if you have more please provide), where we all agree

1-To beat
2-To travel
3-To explain or to expose

So I said the basic and guenuin meaning of "dharaba" is "move", so let's apply this to the 3 meanings we have

1-To beat= the basic process if you break up the action of beating is a "move" of an object from one place to another (F=m*a) see also the definition below
http//www.collinslanguage.com/results.aspx?context=3&reversed=False&action=define&homonym=-1&text=beat

2-To travel = to move frome one place to another

3- To explain, expose = to move, transpose a situation, idea into an image so you can undestand easily.
colins definition, explain to make something easily understandable, esp. by giving a clear and detailed account of it,

Let's continue and take other examples from the contempory usage

4- to multiply to transpose (move) one number several times

5- to stamp (money or whatever) to move an image into a media

wa salam

herbman

Peace
Language is not based on self concocted concepts
Regards

please click the link below

http//www.google.com/search?btnG=1&pws=0&q=arabic+proto-root

peace

Q_student

Salam, Peace,

1-To beat
2-To travel
3-To explain or to expose

wa salam

Peace
Here you are mistaken.
7320
It is not dharaba which means "travel " rather a full phrase i.e dharaba fil ardh.

1424
Again it is not simply dharaba ,rather dharaba mathalan. which means to narrate parable.

Regards

unknownuser

salaam brother

Peace

1424
Again it is not simply dharaba ,rather dharaba mathalan. which means to narrate parable.

Regards

what do you say about the following example

Peace everyone

how would we translate the following

peace

herbman

salaam brother

what do you say about the following example

Thanks Head of Hamza,

I didn't know about that one, I think QS is out of arguments now.
Can you please tell us what's is your understanding of it

Peace

Samia

Peace
Classical arabic is an established and vast language.
Dharaba ( ) = travel
you need to prove through classical arabic work.
BTW what is meant by

According to you self concocted theory which meaning is drawn from this sentence /
regards

Why do you add the adverb to your sentence?

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598471.msg206418#msg206418

To avoid such an answer?

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598471.msg206452#msg206452
laugh
You know without modifying this verb with intensity/tool/place to strike...etc you cannot translate it into (to beat). Even in colloquial, a question would follow how did he "beat" him? With what? Was it serious?...etc