Hot/"ramadan" Answer
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What does hajj have to do with us fasting ramadan? Nothin. fftopic What does this and that have to do with anything? This stupid thread been goin on too long. I think its enuff info and differnt views for each to come to their own conclutions and for this thread to be locked or something. Why is it still going on? Back and forth? And my posts alone should be enuff, I think. With verses and correct understanding of them. And either one of the two groups is guided or astray. And it was inspired to me that I am on a straight path. Me and those who follow.
All an all, Ayman is really smart in this area and he has more knowleadge than me and most when it comes to gazing at the stars and all that stuff. But I only follow what quran says and the sun has nothin to do with determining when ramadan is. I also think it is important to know what ayman knows, just like it is important to know what R.K. knew. But I will not reject because of them.
In Allah I place my trust.
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Salam farida,
I am not trying to convince anyone, just putting forward what i believe is true from my synthesis of what i read so far in the Quran, and the different articles i came across.
Since it was not my intention to write an essay on this proving or disproving using certain intellectual and/or factual tools, let us say that you either take these as initial hypotheses to prove or disprove, or leave it at that and stay content with the tafseers and works of the likes of Tabari, Shafie, Bukhari you seem content to carry on following.
The Quran is factual data enough for me, and from it you can glean a lot of chronological, archeological, historical, sociological information that more often than not contradict what the sectarians have "cooked" together.
Other sources there are, and we need more work, but there is a lack of resources and will as overall, the sectarians do believe that they have the truth engraved in stone, so they do not feel the need to do any forensic and so on research on the matter, in fact if anything, there was a talk several times in Medinah that they should destroy graves and relics of Sahabah because of the dangers of idolatry (this of course will destroy valuable evidence).
I for one would love to be able to get some fragments of belongings of the prophet dating round about his death and using the latest technology to carbon date, that will shed the light on the time line.
Now the question to ask, is his body even in Medinah as we are led to believe, there was a story that during the Ottoman empire there was an attempt at stealing his body which was foiled by the guardians of his tomb...
So long as Al Saud's culture of secrecy is economical with the truth and uses superstition and intimidation to cover and discourage research in the rational history of our past, we will carry on being ignorant and the weakest mentally among us (the huge majority) will either reject the deen or turn to the "scholar" to fill the void).
No offense, but i usually do not like to engage with abrasive people like you, as you are too agressive in your exchanges for my taste, and i do have a choice with whom i choose to interact in a forum, so kindly count yourself lucky that i replied this time...
May Allah increase us in knowledge, patience, compassion, and provides us with the means to better ourselves -
I agree that the start of ramadan depends on the sighting of the moon. 2185 and 2189 is enuff to prove that this is correct. Ramadan depends on the sighting of the moon and not a myriad of other factors other than thin sighting. Even if shar means "moon", there is still no mention of the sun ( or solar) in 2185. I agree that 2185 contains the complete info that we need to know when to start the abstinace, and the sun or solar system has nothin to do with it to my knowleadge. Especially when you translate "shara" as full moon. And 105, 1712, 971, the other similar verses you try to throw up, all that he say she say and these differnt storys has nothing to do with us fasting according to 2185. 2185,2189, and 105 leave no doubt that the year is lunar. New moons or cresent moons, 2189 still mentions the moon as timing device, and not the sun as a timing device. And in 7142 and 892 is mention of nights and not days. And you caint say that " Ma3dootat" is a fixed 10 days ( without explicit knowleadge) and 2184 does not say for "10 days." I agree that " ma3doodat" as " a few" can be any number from 3-10, but you caint say it is 10 days for certain ( without knowleadge). Espeacially when The God didnt say so or say "fast 10 days." And 936 also justifies a lunar year because the moon is mentioned and not the sun.
105 clearly says God measured the phases of the moon so that you might know the number of years and the calculation; while the sun is only mentioned as a shinning brightness and the moon was made to reflect it. Ramadan is to be observed by those who witness it. Also I think even seeing a 1-2 day old cresent is still good enuff to call ramadan if one is certain that the cresent is 1-2 days old. And shahr can mean month or moon, which is bout the same to me. Each full/new moon is considered a new month. 2185 is evidence that there is a month named ramadan. The year is lunar - to my understanding. And you are following all the similar verses seeking to cause confusion and frustrate 2184-185 and 189. From 105, it can be seen that the learning of the number of years and calculation are helped by the moon to my understanding. And to say the complete count is 10 fixed days in 2185 is a lie against Allah - the Lord. We calculate from new moon to the next. There are 12 full moons ( or months) with God a year. I agree God tells us to count 12 months ( or moons) in a year, and four are restricted. And the weeks have always been 7 day weeks every since the Genisis, so all that 10,20 day weeks used by some is irrelevant or might I say wrong,wrong,wrong and off topic.As of right now your false understanding is creating a contradiction. 2185 can be translated as " designated days, certain days, specific days,ect..." And to say a "few" days in 2184 can be misleading. You are creating another problem by implying that the god is giving supeflous usless information in 2185. All we can say is that a Ramadan may last for 29 or 30 days ( as usual) and the count is to be started when the moon is first visible until the next month.
Bring the clear meaning for " Ma3doodat.? O you who believe, you are ordered to fast as those before you, it could be that you are fearful and obedient. A designated term; so whoever from among you is ill or traveling; then complete the number at other times; and as for those who cannot do without, then they may redeem by feeding any of the poorest of the poor, and whoever gives alms voluntarily, then it is best for him, and it is best that you fast, if you are able. The Quran was sent down in the month of Rahmadan, to guide the people and to clarify the guidance and the Difference between Right and Wronge. So one should fast the month, whoever of you witnesses it. And whoever from among you is ill or traveling; then complete the number on other days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the term, and glorify God for what He has guided you, that you may be thankful.
giveup peace
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Salaam and welcome back &
Thank you for your input Samia, I am sure Ayman would appreciate it. D
peace
PsPlease read my Reply #1297 on August 31, 2009, 023111 PM ?page 87 and let me know what you hmmThank you for the welcome, farida.
In fact I was following the thread closely, but could not have the time to participate; also did not find something new except acusing Ayman of repeating himself while the same questions are posed to him.
Until I red your post which you just told me of, and I mean this onePeace Supernaut,
You are talking of the calendar adopted by 'Umar ibn al-Khattab as he in his wisdom felt it necessary to have a calendar so as to fix the dates.
For the Quranic approach understand reference A & B below
A-936. The count of the months with God is twelve months in God's record......
Now if you seriously want to seek the truth then go back to Rex?s post on page 80? Reply #1185 on August 25, 2009, 055646 AM ?
In response to point 4 quickduck Now pay attention to a very important question raised by Rex Why forbidden to kill an animal on June 22 in one year and OK to kill same animal until July 20 in a different year?He again raised that question to Ayman here page 81 ? Reply #1202 on August 26, 2009, 042940 AM
Again, why forbidden on June 22 one year and OK to kill the animal until July 20 in a different year?Both ignored this very valid Question which is the core as described in 937.
B- 937 Know that the use of the additional month causes an increase in rejection, for it is used by those who have rejected that they may misguide with it by making it lawful one year and forbidding it one year so as to circumvent the count that God has made restricted; , thus they make lawful what God made forbidden! Their evil works have been adorned for them, and God does not guide the rejecting people
What you?re talking of now is your view/opinion and I as a lawyer should ignore it but I have time, as long as you don?t repeat your questions, or else be ready to pay my fee >D .
I can see that you use http//www.studyquran.co.uk so it may add to everyone?s knowledge if you study the two terms for years used in the Qur?an and share this knowledge with us. I give you a few examples below
The year 3am( ا is used for carrying out our obligations to God, and the term Seeneen ( ) is also year especially in connection with land,
526 Land be out of reach 40 yrs
1247,48, year of draught and harvesting ,
105 The sun and the moon are both used when referring to Sineen
1712 where for daily seeking bounty from land sineen is used
926 wish to live life thousand seeneen,So clearly there are two types of years in the Quran.
The calendar you or Meteora are referring to is the official calendar, adopted by 'Umar ibn al-Khattab to fix the dates. This did NOT disturb the month of fasting.(just as the ?sunni? in my blue lagoon scenario see?s Ramadan as the 12th month, of his migration yet he fast on same occasion as the rest whose calendar see this month as the 9th)
Good of you to select ?the Flower moon ?from the Wikipedia collection since what, in English, is called the full moon is actually half of the moon cycle.
We do not fast according to your ?stupid" Islamic calendar, we fast according to the cycle started by the prophet per the event when the Qur?an was revealed to him, and he surly knew more than your dictionaries if it was during burning, heat/ blasted by the sun. yes
As ?guest? pointed out on page 80 ? Reply #1192 on August 25, 2009, 070849 PM ? The Quran says Prophet Muhammad was given wisdom. Nowhere in the Quran have we found that Ayman was given wisdom. On the contrary the Quran warns us about people like you who twist God?s words hmm
So Alhumdullilah, despite all failed attempts to knock unconscious true Muslims in order to make re-arrangements, the cycle established by the prophet Mohammad (pbuh) is rock solid and is going on till this day without any discontinued intercalation or frozen commutation. hail
peace
Ps An example of Shiin-ha-Ra = make it notable/known/manifest/public/infamous The announcement (Cards) proud parents convey about the birth of their infant... sunWhat drew my attention was your differenciation between the meaning of "sana/ " and "3aam/ ". I really like your rendition and was surprised that you did not notice that God does not care what "our year" is or how long it's, but for Him it's from harvest to harvest (sanaa)or draught to draught (3aam), yet you cannot comprehend how, in the same manner, He does not care about our "month" and how long it ias. God speaks to use using His creation not our inventions, and that's why the quraan is full of advice for us to contemplate the creation.
As for the story of Khalifa Omar, the narrators say that the setting of a calendar was initiated by the walis and governors when money poured from foreign governates, and they had to know when exactly it arrived and to which "ramadan" it belonged so as not to mix the revenues of different years. I found this very interesting. They did not have a problem with when to fast (when ramadaan was), nor when to go to hajj; yet they wanted to know which "ramadaan/harvest time". This revenue, of course, was mainly the income of harvest. The decision of starting with the year of immigration was not even Omar's. So the year had nothing to do with fasting people did not need it for their fasting, otherwise, the prophet would have set it, and not address people that "their deen was complete".
Most probably, the corruption took place later when the islamic empire was full of hypocrates and traitors, the same time of hadith invention.
Moreover, even hadith and tales could not prove that a month called "Ramadan" existed. Those who dicuss this say the equivalent was called "Zahir/ ". I wonder why God brings about a name of a month the people are not aware of, and no question was asked!
Thanks again for this post -
I agree that the start of ramadan depends on the sighting of the moon. 2185 and 2189 is enuff to prove that this is correct. Ramadan depends on the sighting of the moon and not a myriad of other factors other than thin sighting. Even if shar means "moon", there is still no mention of the sun ( or solar) in 2185. I agree that 2185 contains the complete info that we need to know when to start the abstinace, and the sun or solar system has nothin to do with it to my knowleadge. Especially when you translate "shara" as full moon. And 105, 1712, 971, the other similar verses you try to throw up, all that he say she say and these differnt storys has nothing to do with us fasting according to 2185. 2185,2189, and 105 leave no doubt that the year is lunar. New moons or cresent moons, 2189 still mentions the moon as timing device, and not the sun as a timing device. And in 7142 and 892 is mention of nights and not days. And you caint say that " Ma3dootat" is a fixed 10 days ( without explicit knowleadge) and 2184 does not say for "10 days." I agree that " ma3doodat" as " a few" can be any number from 3-10, but you caint say it is 10 days for certain ( without knowleadge). Espeacially when The God didnt say so or say "fast 10 days." And 936 also justifies a lunar year because the moon is mentioned and not the sun.
Ma3doodat105 clearly says God measured the phases of the moon so that you might know the number of years and the calculation; while the sun is only mentioned as a shinning brightness and the moon was made to reflect it. Ramadan is to be observed by those who witness it. Also I think even seeing a 1-2 day old cresent is still good enuff to call ramadan if one is certain that the cresent is 1-2 days old. And shahr can mean month or moon, which is bout the same to me. Each full/new moon is considered a new month. 2185 is evidence that there is a month named ramadan. The year is lunar - to my understanding. And you are following all the similar verses seeking to cause confusion and frustrate 2184-185 and 189. From 105, it can be seen that the learning of the number of years and calculation are helped by the moon to my understanding. And to say the complete count is 10 fixed days in 2185 is a lie against Allah - the Lord. We calculate from new moon to the next. There are 12 full moons ( or months) with God a year. I agree God tells us to count 12 months ( or moons) in a year, and four are restricted. And the weeks have always been 7 day weeks every since the Genisis, so all that 10,20 day weeks used by some is irrelevant or might I say wrong,wrong,wrong and off topic.As of right now your false understanding is creating a contradiction. 2185 can be translated as " designated days, certain days, specific days,ect..." And to say a "few" days in 2184 can be misleading. You are creating another problem by implying that the god is giving supeflous usless information in 2185. All we can say is that a Ramadan may last for 29 or 30 days ( as usual) and the count is to be started when the moon is first visible until the next month.
Bring the clear meaning for " Ma3doodat.? O you who believe, you are ordered to fast as those before you, it could be that you are fearful and obedient. A designated term; so whoever from among you is ill or traveling; then complete the number at other times; and as for those who cannot do without, then they may redeem by feeding any of the poorest of the poor, and whoever gives alms voluntarily, then it is best for him, and it is best that you fast, if you are able. The Quran was sent down in the month of Rahmadan, to guide the people and to clarify the guidance and the Difference between Right and Wronge. So one should fast the month, whoever of you witnesses it. And whoever from among you is ill or traveling; then complete the number on other days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the term, and glorify God for what He has guided you, that you may be thankful.
giveup peace
Ma3doodat--3-- cant you read 3 in Ma3doodat
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Thank you for the welcome, farida.
In fact I was following the thread closely, but could not have the time to participate; also did not find something new except acusing Ayman of repeating himself while the same questions are posed to him.
Until I red your post which you just told me of, and I mean this oneWhat drew my attention was your differenciation between the meaning of "sana/ " and "3aam/ ". I really like your rendition and was surprised that you did not notice that God does not care what "our year" is or how long it's, but for Him it's from harvest to harvest (sanaa)or draught to draught (3aam), yet you cannot comprehend how, in the same manner, He does not care about our "month" and how long it ias. God speaks to use using His creation not our inventions, and that's why the quraan is full of advice for us to contemplate the creation.
As for the story of Khalifa Omar, the narrators say that the setting of a calendar was initiated by the walis and governors when money poured from foreign governates, and they had to know when exactly it arrived and to which "ramadan" it belonged so as not to mix the revenues of different years. I found this very interesting. They did not have a problem with when to fast (when ramadaan was), nor when to go to hajj; yet they wanted to know which "ramadaan/harvest time". This revenue, of course, was mainly the income of harvest. The decision of starting with the year of immigration was not even Omar's. So the year had nothing to do with fasting people did not need it for their fasting, otherwise, the prophet would have set it, and not address people that "their deen was complete".
Most probably, the corruption took place later when the islamic empire was full of hypocrates and traitors, the same time of hadith invention.
Moreover, even hadith and tales could not prove that a month called "Ramadan" existed. Those who dicuss this say the equivalent was called "Zahir/ ". I wonder why God brings about a name of a month the people are not aware of, and no question was asked!
Thanks again for this postI?m expecting a storm with thunder bolt &
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Of course you find in "Islamic" literature the story and its opposite. So here is another story about the Islamic calender
It's said that the Islamic calender was set much earlier, from the first year the prophet immigrated, and so it was logical that he started it with "rabee3 -ul-awal first grazing", but Omar changed it to make it start with "mu7arram the restricted month".
In my opinion
Both stories are baseless, and they are just there to give credit to the whole fiasco of a lunar "Islamic" year. Otherwise, if the firs khalif could change the beginning of a calender, thus moving the time of fasting, how much manipulation took place in this calender?
And should we trust it, or trust God and search in His book? -
Salam farida,
I am not trying to convince anyone, just putting forward what i believe is true from my synthesis of what i read so far in the Quran, and the different articles i came across.
Since it was not my intention to write an essay on this proving or disproving using certain intellectual and/or factual tools, let us say that you either take these as initial hypotheses to prove or disprove,Salaam theNabster
I am sorry to say we are long past intial hypothesis, and at a stage where we are not wasting anymore time on unfounded opinions.
and stay content with the tafseers and works of the likes of Tabari, Shafie, Bukhari you seem content to carry on following.
That is your choice not mine and you can carryon with that by all means
The Quran is factual data enough for me, and from it you can glean a lot of chronological, archeological, historical, sociological information that more often than not contradict what the sectarians have "cooked" together.
Absolutely correct.
Other sources there are, and we need more work, but there is a lack of resources and will as overall,
Yes we need to evaluate all other sources, including Ayman's, and there is no lack of resources, but yes there is a lack of will and the old habit of dependency on others.
the sectarians do believe that they have the truth engraved in stone, so they do not feel the need to do any forensic and so on research on the matter
They are stuck in paralysis and we can only pray for them to wake up and seek the truth.
in fact if anything, there was a talk several times in Medinah that they should destroy graves and relics of Sahabah because of the dangers of idolatry (this of course will destroy valuable evidence).
Yes I have read this too. Very convenient for the Saudis. Anyway they need the tourist flow so they need to modernise and expand; after all this is the biggest tourist event in the world.
I for one would love to be able to get some fragments of belongings of the prophet dating round about his death and using the latest technology to carbon date, that will shed the light on the time line.
This shows you desire the truth and, sincerely seeking the truth, we will find it.
Now the question to ask, is his body even in Medinah as we are led to believe, there was a story that during the Ottoman empire there was an attempt at stealing his body which was foiled by the guardians of his tomb...
So long as Al Saud's culture of secrecy is economical with the truth and uses superstition and intimidation to cover and discourage research in the rational history of our past, we will carry on being ignorant and the weakest mentally among us (the huge majority) will either reject the deen or turn to the "scholar" to fill the void).I believe that, as the Qur'an prophesied, the record will be laid open and with the modern technology available to us it will happen soon insha?Allah
No offense, but i usually do not like to engage with abrasive people like you, as you are too agressive in your exchanges for my taste, and i do have a choice with whom i choose to interact in a forum, so kindly count yourself lucky that i replied this time...
May Allah increase us in knowledge, patience, compassion, and provides us with the means to better ourselvesSince you appear to be a reasonable person following this thread you should know that I too am no friend of abusive language and, as you will see from the quotes following, I only use it in response to abuse.
I am sure you will have noticed that it was Ayman who started calling all who disagreed with him stupid idiots and ignorant, lacking knowledge etc. Such invectives, the sign of a loser, were present in almost every post of his. There is a limit to putting up with such nonsense and adding name calling to that is too much, so I feel he got no more than he rightly deserved.If you feel I was aggressive with Siki (the Roman Salute) then know that it was in response to this remark siki on August 25, 2009, 070605 AM
Yes! because the country is PLAGUED with 180 million (minus a few) sunni sectarians, siki
Does this ring a bell? His language is no different from Hitler?s hate propaganda against the Jews, and I believe no one should harbour such feelings for anyone at all.And if you felt that I was aggressive with Rami as Reply #1276 on August 30, 2009, 013833 PM then know too that it was in response to his abhorrent accusation and mocking my fasting, not even understanding the basics of my fasting system. Check it yourself ? Reply #1241 on August 28, 2009, 060853 AM page 83.
You seem to be an honest and fair minded person so please advise me; where, was I alone aggressive? Or is it the traditional value that a woman should put up with obnoxious men at the bottom of this accusation?
peace
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If you feel I was aggressive with Siki (the Roman Salute) then know that it was in response to this remark siki on August 25, 2009, 070605 AM
Yes! because the country is PLAGUED with 180 million (minus a few) sunni sectarians, siki
Does this ring a bell? His language is no different from Hitler?s hate propaganda against the Jews, and I believe no one should harbour such feelings for anyone at all.Hey but those "plagued people" think o' us as infidels and apostates...threatening us with death... brickwall
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I never said such thing. I said it was descended in a scorching full-moon. This is the same as saying it descended in a blazing sun or a cloudy day, etc. Just like all the phases of the moon, the scorching moon is an entirely optical phenomenon.
Day = Period of time
Moon = ObjectWho are you trying to fool? You are just trying to save your 'scorching moon' theory at any cost.
The great reading is about consistency. The great reading was descended in a scorching full-moon is more logical because it is consistent with the rest of the passage and other passages. For example, it is consistent with the following facts
Maybe that is why the moon was split by Muhammad... the Quran was stuck in it (according to your wording).
- The great reading was revealed in the night of measure (1 night not a whole month).
Are you telling me that this proves your point?
- The false understanding of month creates an insurmountable logical absurdity since shahid (witnessed) is in the perfect past tense so this implies that you have to witness the month and then go back in time and fast. Thus even the staunchest Sunnis admit that this passage is talking about witnessing an event (they claim to be the new moon crescent) and not a month. Rex and you can try to change the words of the passage to make it say witness the first day of the month or whatever but this is not what the passage is saying.
I have already explained the reason for the usage of the past tense... If you want, I'll post it again for you.
This is just some ignorant crap as typical from Submission.org.
Ignorant statement.
The fast in the Bible is prescribed as one day and not a whole month.
There are many fasts described in the Bible - either-or fallacy.
If you believe in the Bible then you might as well go ahead and idolize Jesus.
That's some screwed up logic you have...logical fallacy again..
Besides, we're talking about the OT part of the Bible... Jesus didnt exist in the time when the OT was published hint hint.An example of a Jewish fast is that of Taanit Bkhorot which happens on the day before the full-moon. Also, the 9th month of the Hebrew Calendar is Kislev which occurs in the November-December timeframe.
Why are you switching the topic? Did the fact that the people back then - real Submitters - not your Jewish calendar people with the Mishnah and Gemerrah - used a pure lunar calendar freak you out?
There is no evidence of a month called Ramadan
rotfl rotfl rotfl
Jeremiah 369 "And it came to pass in the fifth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, in the ninth month, that they proclaimed a fast before the Lord to all the people in Jerusalem, and to all the people that came from the cities of Judah unto Jerusalem."
let alone a 10 day period called Ramadan
Why are you telling me this? Arent you the one promoting your lousy 10 days of fasting?
I never said that it is a name so you are, as usual, building a strawman. I said that it is a common noun. The burden of proof is on you to show that there was a pre-Islamic month called Ramadan. I know you cant prove it.
The only one posting logically fallacious stuff is you. I presented my proofs to you - now it's your turn. As I can see from the above quote, you have none.
Peace,
Where? In your posts?!
Anyways, I am looking forward to your reply with A PROOF for your 10 days of fasting after having witnessed a so-called "full moon of scorching heat".
peace
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Salam Farida,
Allah bless you and protect you from the evil ones.
We're all in the same boat... just different brain chemicals
prompting us at different levels of concerns... )
and to be honest I no longer wish to argue nor want to waste
the energy in doing so... our death is close enough...
hopefully, Allah will bless us with some of the answers we are
striving for...
and I do beg to differ, we are never past neither good approaches,
good questions, nor proper answers and solutions...
in fact if you read the Quran closely, we are not only enjoined, encouraged to do so
but even dared many times to do so too, to examine, scrutinise and challenge what is put in front of us, and ponder what happens to those before us, not only as people who believed (if ever in our case), but as humans too...
the tragedy for the sectarians is that as you rightly say, they have stopped following these important commandments, that
by the way the scientific community made it one of their cornerstone in their approach to the observation and understanding of reality,
but even them do get manipulated by their pre-conceived filters and ideas, so you are never careful...
the ways of the devil are numerous, but the best ploy against him is knowledge, not dogma... -
Thank you for the welcome, farida.
In fact I was following the thread closely, but could not have the time to participate; also did not find something new except acusing Ayman of repeating himself while the same questions are posed to him.
Until I red your post which you just told me of, and I mean this oneSalaam Samia,
No Samia there is a lot of new stuff on this thread. Ayman?s Mantra having put people like you off is another matter. But the thread is turning into a black hole and, as a result, all the hard work by the other contributors is being swallowed up. It has now come to a stage where I have to give page link as a reference for my posts to draw attention to our hard work.
What drew my attention was your differenciation between the meaning of "sana/ " and "3aam/ ". I really like your rendition and was surprised that you did not notice that God does not care what "our year" is or how long it's, but for Him it's from harvest to harvest (sanaa)or draught to draught (3aam), yet you cannot comprehend how, in the same manner, He does not care about our "month" and how long it ias. God speaks to use using His creation not our inventions, and that's why the quraan is full of advice for us to contemplate the creation.
As for the story of Khalifa Omar, the narrators say that the setting of a calendar was initiated by the walis and governors when money poured from foreign governates, and they had to know when exactly it arrived and to which "ramadan" it belonged so as not to mix the revenues of different years. I found this very interesting. They did not have a problem with when to fast (when ramadaan was), nor when to go to hajj; yet they wanted to know which "ramadaan/harvest time". This revenue, of course, was mainly the income of harvest. The decision of starting with the year of immigration was not even Omar's. So the year had nothing to do with fasting people did not need it for their fasting, otherwise, the prophet would have set it, and not address people that "their deen was complete".
)I feel so honoured that you like my rendition, however, if only you had paid attention to the top part of my post, you would have noticed that it cited 936 ?The count of the months with God is twelve months in God's record.?
I?m surprised that this part of my post did not interest you, despite the fact that this is the core of our belief, when it comes to count in the eyes of God as you rightly said that God does not care what "our year. Therefore no adding or skipping just count 12 *shahr/moon/month,.
*Month Etymology -Reply #1213 on August 27, 2009, 042925 PM page 81 I am sure this too was unnoticed by youMost probably, the corruption took place later when the islamic empire was full of hypocrates and traitors, the same time of hadith invention.
Moreover, even hadith and tales could not prove that a month called "Ramadan" existed. Those who dicuss this say the equivalent was called "Zahir/ ". I wonder why God brings about a name of a month the people are not aware of, and no question was asked!
Thanks again for this post 8No offence Samia but, unlike you, I have little interest these hadiths, however if you like to get your hand on a hadith driven dossier, introduced to us by a very interesting character, quickduck, who was trying to convince us (failing miserably) that , the order of months, as per his understanding, has never been always the same. Get your hands on this find on page 84 quickduck?s Reply #1246 on August 28, 2009, 075503 PM I am sure you would love this findings.
As always it?s great to hear from you.
peace -
Salam Farida,
Allah bless you and protect you from the evil ones.
We're all in the same boat... just different brain chemicals
prompting us at different levels of concerns...Salaam theNabster
May you be protected too.and to be honest I no longer wish to argue nor want to waste
the energy in doing so... our death is close enough...
hopefully, Allah will bless us with some of the answers we are
striving for......You don?t want to waste more energy on this subject; after the exchange of only a few posts you?ve already lost the will whereas we, on this thread, have been striving to uncover the deceit since last year. We are exhausted but not defeated and that?s what I meant when I said ?I am sorry to say we are long past initial hypothesis, and at a stage where we are not wasting any more time on unfounded opinions.
and I do beg to differ, we are never past neither good approaches,
good questions, nor proper answers and solutions...
in fact if you read the Quran closely, we are not only enjoined, encouraged to do so
but even dared many times to do so too, to examine, scrutinise and challenge what is put in front of us, and ponder what happens to those before us, not only as people who believed (if ever in our case), but as humans too...And that is exactly what we have been doing since last Ramadan on this thread challenging Ayman?s distorted hot scorching full moon theory which is a straight violation of 936 & 937. And how we have been mocked and laughed at for taking this stance!
the tragedy for the sectarians is that as you rightly say, they have stopped following these important commandments, that
by the way the scientific community made it one of their cornerstone in their approach to the observation and understanding of reality,
but even them do get manipulated by their pre-conceived filters and ideas, so you are never careful...
the ways of the devil are numerous, but the best ploy against him is knowledge, not dogmaI have long since stopped worrying about the sectarians. There was a time when I used to try and change my friends from among them and, to tell you the honest truth, most of the time when I discuss issues with them in light of the Qur?an, they do not disagree with me and agree about the corruptions. But then they say; we are not as brave as you and cannot break away from what we are. So I have left them to their deeds as that is what I understand we are supposed to do; just warn if they do not listen, but for the rest we have no authority over them.
However the greatest tragedy is the case of those who claim to be ?Qur?an Aloners?, those who, on this very site spend endless time mocking the traditionalists, the sunni, the hijjabis etc.! It is such a waste of time and, of course, in stark contravention of the teachings of the Qur?an.
On this very thread a thirteen year old wrote, in response to my post to you,( Reply #1364 on Today at 064510 PM) ?Hey but those "plagued people" think o' us as infidels and apostates...threatening us with death..." Is this really the legacy we wish to pass on to our youngsters?! I think not.
358 The one whose evil work is adorned and he sees it as being good. God thus misguides whom he wills, and He guides whom He wills. So do not let yourself grieve over them. God is fully aware of what they are doing.
God bless
peace -
Salaam theNabster
May you be protected too. You don?t want to waste more energy on this subject; after the exchange of only a few posts you?ve already lost the will whereas we, on this thread, have been striving to uncover the deceit since last year.Salam again prolific Sis Farida,
No mind reading please
I wish I were 13 years old matter of fact ;D
As for the division into sects, nothing we can do about it, Allah pointed at it in the Quran,
and it will therefore keep on being so...
However Allah enjoins us very forcefully that we should not divide into sects.
Without the Quran there is no System of Belief, so the ball is clearly in the camp of those
who like distinguishing and separating themselves, each group giving themselves a name,
as Allah says, name they just named... no authority to those whatsoever...
Yes you are right we have enough of our own sins and shortcomings not to worry of those of others,
and as you can witness everyday, Allah hates those groups enough that they keep getting punished
for their blindness.
Blindness is no excuse, lack of judgment is no excuse, tradition is no excuse, being made is no excuse...
when there is the Book manifest in our hands, and most of us choose not to understand it, and instead out of
laziness choose to let others do the thinking for us, even if others are hell bent on our damnation...
and indeed by my last words I do not mean only scholars or mullahs, but also those "enlightened" hate mongers
you refer to who love to create animosity between communities (let's see, sectarian violence, shia versus sunni,
jihadist versus progressives).
My contention is that all these groups are inspired by dark princes of satan's kingdom, and without knowing
they are doing satan's bidding.
This also works by the way with the other religious groups in christianity and judaism, and governments...
Satan's army is now so very well oiled and organised, that I am prompted to think that maybe jihad was meant to mean
fighting the works of satan and his soldiers...
Peace -
Salam again prolific Sis Farida,
No mind reading please
I wish I were 13 years old matter of fact ;D
As for the division into sects, nothing we can do about it, Allah pointed at it in the Quran,
and it will therefore keep on being so...
However Allah enjoins us very forcefully that we should not divide into sects.
Without the Quran there is no System of Belief, so the ball is clearly in the camp of those
who like distinguishing and separating themselves, each group giving themselves a name,
as Allah says, name they just named... no authority to those whatsoever...
Yes you are right we have enough of our own sins and shortcomings not to worry of those of others,
and as you can witness everyday, Allah hates those groups enough that they keep getting punished
for their blindness.
Blindness is no excuse, lack of judgment is no excuse, tradition is no excuse, being made is no excuse...
when there is the Book manifest in our hands, and most of us choose not to understand it, and instead out of
laziness choose to let others do the thinking for us, even if others are hell bent on our damnation...
and indeed by my last words I do not mean only scholars or mullahs, but also those "enlightened" hate mongers
you refer to who love to create animosity between communities (let's see, sectarian violence, shia versus sunni,
jihadist versus progressives).
My contention is that all these groups are inspired by dark princes of satan's kingdom, and without knowing
they are doing satan's bidding.
This also works by the way with the other religious groups in christianity and judaism, and governments...
Satan's army is now so very well oiled and organised, that I am prompted to think that maybe jihad was meant to mean
fighting the works of satan and his soldiers...
PeaceWa alaikum salaam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu brother!
Ahh finally; soo relieved to see someone taking a stance based on the teachings of the Qur?an! God give you strength and resolve to stand up against those who want to erase our deen. As for dividing into sects and groups as Allah says in the Qur;an mankind were one but they fell into groups out of their own desire.
We are already separated in small sects fighting each other and, on top of that, a system of fasting, based on a twisted understanding, designed to fragment what little unity we have been able to muster. The sense of community that comes with sharing our experience of fasting would disappear should the theory Ayman is advocating win through. Not only does it swing, but it is also very different for both hemispheres so in his system we would not even be united with our next door neighbours when it comes to any act of worship. So on this note I bid you good night with these words from our Holy Book
Say "I seek refuge with the Lord of the people,"
"The King of the people,"
The god of the people,"
From the evil of the sneaking whisperer,"
Who whispers into the chests of the people."
peace -
Peace Ayman,
You can only count 12 so you have to skip the 13th. You are also giving me too much credit since it is the god who made the moon cycle, including the full-moon, so it is not "mine".
It is ALWAYS in early summer, whether you like it or not. On the other hand, how about your arbitrary nonsense timing which drifts all over the place and even within the same year you have 3 months together and then Rajab floating all by itself? As usual, you can't answer.
Animal mating and birthing habits are in line with the seasons. The timing for the restriction will always be from early summer to early fall. On the other hand, no animal gives birth in the summer and gives birth earlier by 11 days every year until about a dozen years later it gives birth in the winter per your nonsense.
How illogically absurd; skip count, ignore a whole cycle, and say it's not yours.
Again ? no answer to drifting kill season and everything else drifting by a month. Already stated; global hunting restriction is your fantasy along with "the skipping" to allow the sun to catch up with the moon which is never the case...
3640 La alshshamsu yanbaghee laha an tudrika alqamara
The sun should not (be) to it that it catches up the moonYou are ignorantly mistranslating. The word "siyam" is a noun not a verb.
583-4
And those who declare their wives as forbidden for them as their mothers
so freeing a neck from before that they touch each other
And he who finds not must do the abstinence two successive full-moons before they both touch each other
And he who is unable to do so should feed sixty poorThe abstinence two successive full-moons means wait until next 98%, 99%, 100% full moon then fast to next non-identifiable 98%, 99%, 100% full moon which is about a month +/- a few days for error.
Therefore, the abstinence of one full-moon is ZERO days!
Let's apply the verse today
- Does he commence fasting? YES!
- Can he sleep with his wife until the next full moon? NO!
- Does feeding 60 poor equate to two months fasting? YES!
Go learn Arabic and more importantly logic. The word "quran" is masculine while " " in 7431 is feminine (referring to the feminine "saqar" while in 690 " " is masculine referring to the "quran". You are in way over your head and this entire discussion is clearly beyond your intellectual capacity if you can't even grasp those basic concepts. You are sounding more and more like ignorant 19ers who also confuse the feminine " " (on it) in 7430 as talking about the masculine "quran" and not the feminine "saqar". (not surprising since they too believe and blindly follow your manmade arbitrary traditional calendar by the way and they even made a Code for it as Progressive1993 can show you http//www.islamrevolution.org/thenightofdestiny.htm ).
It doesn't matter what conclusion you reach as long as your starting point is not trying to justify traditions. It is entirely your choice, stupid or intelligent?
Hot moon is stupid as are your grammar rules which Qur'an is genderless also called the reminder/remembrance...
1644
With the evidences and The Books, and We descended to you the reminder to clarify to the people what was descended to them, and perhaps they think.72
A Book was descended to you so no strain be in your chest from it, to warn with it and a remembrance/reminder to the believers.7431