Hyper-salafism
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In maldives (my country) salafis are called habis or wahabis and they are a minority religion elektro
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No actually he is correct. Its salafism. The Sufis in North America and maybe Europe talk like that because of the Salafi influence that Sufis are not following the "pure" teachings of Islam. Look at the Sudanese TV and you will see Sufis appearing regularly but rarely with a beard and none of them shorten their trousers or robes.But the Salafi influence put pressure on them to act exactly how the hadith says at least in public.
I don't mean the fashion, but the idea of looking for the deeper, mystical, alagorical meaning of passages.
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As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects, thou hast no part in them in the least their affair is with Allah. He will in the end tell them the truth of all that they did.
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Those who split up their Religion, and become (mere) Sects,- each party rejoicing in that which is with itself!
Why not quote the verses?
I only remember the verse numbers, not always the text. And that's 3031-32
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I don't mean the fashion, but the idea of looking for the deeper, mystical, alagorical meaning of passages.
Salams, god clearly states that only the people "In whose hearts is pervasiveness" go looking for the deeper, allegorical meanings of Qur'anic verses. (In Chapter Aali Imraan) Hope that straightens things out...
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No -that is misquoting the Quran. It says that that those who's hearts are bad FOLLOW the allegorical passages, i.e. pretending they are literal. So actually this is a passage condemning the fundamentalists, because it clearly says that some passages in the Quran are allegorical. The verse is 37.
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If it isn't brainless literalism, it isn't salafism.
rotfl bravo
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37 is not about the quran; especially, if you study the context.
Actually, looking at the context, it is about the Quran.
33 He sent down to you the book with truth, authenticating what is present with it; and He sent down the Torah and the Injeel.
34 Before; He sent down the Criterion as guidance for the people. For those who become unappreciative of God's signs/revelations, they will have a tough retribution, and God is Noble, exacting in Revenge.
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al kitab bil haqq (the book with truth) is al quran, sure.
Al kitab, itself, is NOT al quran. The context is 31-10, on...
The quran gives detail to al kitab. 1037
Furthermore, knowledge from 'the book' gave somebody the power to teleport a mansion (2740) The book also contains natural phenomenon (638-39).
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9120.0
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al kitab bil haqq (the book with truth) is al quran, sure.
Al kitab, itself, is NOT al quran. The context is 31-10, on...
The quran gives detail to al kitab. 1037
Furthermore, knowledge from 'the book' gave somebody the power to teleport a mansion (2740) The book also contains natural phenomenon (638-39).
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9120.0
Does 'al kitab' never refer to the Quran, IYO?
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Some may have had experiences like that but not all. Many have left Sunnism because of how it made them feel or because they found discrepancies between Koran and hadith. Others come from a Christian background or were lukewarm atheist.
As far as hadiths are concerned, the more I debate the Koran the more discrepancies I find between the Koran and hadith.
Let me talk about myself. I find the attitude of Sunnis, meaning the more religious ones and the clerics, very unattractive. they are not open minded and can not handle tolerance. they are also corrupt and dictatorial. Not all Sunnis are like that but many Sunni activist are like that. Many Sunni forums have no tolerance for an open debate and think they are superior.
There are also many Arabs who are tired of the sectarian divisions in the Muslim world, they see hadith as divisive. There are many reasons why people would leave Sunnism. Not all people who say they are Koranist left Sunnism. Many still have similar views with Sunnism but may not see it as the only way. I am not against the Sunni rituals and I could believe they may be authentic forms of rituals left by the prophet and his companions. I just do not have prove of that and the Koran has chosen to be vague. But hadiths, well i think that many of them are not true and contradict the Koran completely.
I would not make assumption as to why people became Koranist. Some just entered this forum by coincidence and felt attracted. For me it was a long journey that led me here. Even when I came here I was still back and forth. There are still many things I do not know and my views change everytime I get new information. Most people who are active here fall under this category although some have been in this game a longer time. I think its just a question of exposure. There is only very few Koranist websites and as more and more Muslims and non Muslims here about the Koranic movement and learn about it many would enter it but for different reasons. But then again I am very active in the net so i have lots of time to research and learn from others. I am also trying to study the Bible more.
I am very active in the net. I debate Jews, Christians, Atheist and even Salafis. What made me attracted to the Koranic view point was debate experience. I noticed most of the attacks against islam was coming from hadiths. You will notice this to be true if you debate a lot. Then by researching i would come to get the Koranic point of view and realize it says different things from the hadiths. Sheikh Google was a great help. I read the Koran before many times so i remembered some verses and then i would google it to find it.
I also must admit that Western oriental scholarship played a big part also. Joseph Schacht and Ignaz Goldziher were a big eye opener because they exposed me to some new information. I spent hours after hours researching hadith compilation. I tried to find out for myself how reliable hadiths are but never got anywhere. I guess I just got tired. Its important to understand that I was aware of Sunni Islam and Salafism. But many people would not spent this time researching. They can just be teen agers who entered a forum heard about Koranist did a google and entered the forum and got attracted but never posted. They could go and post somehwere else or just practice it. Its hard to know how people think. Most of my family members don't know much about Koran and I rarely talk with them. they are not interested. People who post here tend to be more serious about their religion and most would have researched. But i would not assume that about others.
Are you going through a salafi burnout? I had a salafi burnout long time ago. i am pretty old, reaching 40. I was a Salafi back in the late 80s early 90s. I left salafism as I got older. But I never heard of Koranist back then although i knew the Koran pretty well at least in recitation. I stop becoming religious for a while and just went about my business. After 9-11 I became active again. This time I had the net. It was a huge difference as information was able and different view points was everywhere.
My first experience with Koranist was probably the website moslem.org. I mean real hard core Koranist. I heard about hadith rejection before but I was not sure what it meant in terms of actual difference with Sunnism. They were I think Rashad khalifa influenced or maybe not. I was debating them but they also lacked information. Actually we all did and still in some ways still do. This is because not many Koranist are active but their numbers are growing. One thing i learned is that debates teach you a lot more than researching. I want to learn more about the Bible.
I think Sunnism is dead. Don't you?
Really? I always thought that sunnism is in need of dire reform rather than dead, but then what exactly is that you are referring to sunnism as??? The sunnism that was taken as a choice at the death of the prophet or the phenomena which is being practiced today????
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Really? I always thought that sunnism is in need of dire reform rather than dead, but then what exactly is that you are referring to sunnism as??? The sunnism that was taken as a choice at the death of the prophet or the phenomena which is being practiced today????
I call it infusion of sufism. Once you remove that out of everything, there you go.
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Once you remove sufism all is good, is that what you mean?
Aye, because you gotta follow quran 6159 and 3031-32
Peace,
There are Sufis who are Sufi Submitters and follow the Quran as the only divine text and reject strange superstitions and putting all their trust into one human or sheik. It's arguable that Sufism was a monotheistic religion that later found a home within Islam. Which to me makes sense because Islam (submission) is the most peaceful religion. I just think Sufism like other religions was hijacked by clerics(sheiks) who had their own agendas.
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Tailor
So what is salafi movement got it right? Do you honestly believe salafis actually ?cleaved? ahadith?
I don?t believe they have. If you live close to an Islamic bookstore, i recommend you to buy ?an introduction to the science of hadith? by Dr. Suhaib Hasan. It?s simple and easy to understand. When you read about how a hadith is derived as sahih and recognise the so called sahih hadith you?d see how messed up the system is.
BTW not everyone here takes everything so literally, if anything they tend to be more metaphorical.
Peace.
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Peace,
There are Sufis who are Sufi Submitters and follow the Quran as the only divine text and reject strange superstitions and putting all their trust into one human or sheik. It's arguable that Sufism was a monotheistic religion that later found a home within Islam. Which to me makes sense because Islam (submission) is the most peaceful religion. I just think Sufism like other religions was hijacked by clerics(sheiks) who had their own agendas.
There are sufis? Where are there sufis? There should be no sufis on the face of the earth. Sufism is a religion of it's own... you mean like a parasite? Aye it was one that rose to it's height in the 16th century as the muslims declined to the lowest of lows.
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What aspect of Sufism do you dislike, FAR?
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Sufis are mostly peaceful and apolitical. They do not tend to focus as much on legalistic issues like Islamist do. There difference with Salafism is based on Tawassul mostly. Salafis difference with Sunnism as a whole is that salafis go to hadith directly while Sunni clerics look at fiqh and the teachings of their madhab. Remember all the madhabs were formed before Bukhari compiled his hadith and most of them kept their teachings of their madhab. Salafis do not seem to understand this and always are surprised that these madhabs do not follow(especially in ritualistic) issues the hadiths of Buhari or Muslims while Sunnis belittle Salafis as not always understanding the difference between hadith and fiqh.
There is a book out by Daniel Brown called the iconization of Bukhari were he talks about how Bukhari's hadith became iconized but the madhabs only took his hadith standard and not always the hadith itself. The Maliki school and Shafi school and Hanafi school were all formulated before Bukhari's hadith. The hanafis in fact were very reluctant to accept hadith and it took them centuries to finally accept Bukhari's hadith as authoritative. But its authority is limited because the schools never wanted to give up their madhabs and they believe in consensus sometimes is more important than individual hadith.