Intercession - A confusing and contradicting statement in Quran
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Salaam
Excellent observation! bravo
Salaam Farida,
Thanks )
Peace
So you believe intercession is allowed.That is another thing if it is accepted or not .Right ??
Peace
That is nearly, but not quite what I meant. My reading is that intercession is not forbidden, that implies that it is allowed. If it was forbidden, the Holy Qur'an would specify that it is forbidden (as blood and flesh of swine is forbidden)
It is not a case of Allah accepting the intercession, but a case of Allah deciding to forgive anyway, thus the forgiveness from Allah, and the intercession from the person, merely co-incide. The person's intercession will not change Allah's decision, as Allah knows best, but, that does not mean, that the two things cannot ever co-incide.
An analogy. If a watch is broken, it only ever reports one time, for the sake of discussion, let's say 430. Twice a day, it will be 430. That is not to say that the watch is correctly telling the time, or even working, it just means that it's report, and the time, are co-inciding with each other. Hense, the expression, that a broken clock is right twice a day. I would humbly suggest, that it is a similar situation with intercession. If Allah chooses to forgive, then He will forgive regardless of anything. If someone chooses to intercede, then that might co-incide with Allah's forgiveness, but, that does not mean that the intercession has changed Allah's decision, as Allah knows best.Peace.
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Salaam Farida,
Thanks )
Peace
PeaceThat is nearly, but not quite what I meant. My reading is that intercession is not forbidden, that implies that it is allowed. If it was forbidden, the Holy Qur'an would specify that it is forbidden (as blood and flesh of swine is forbidden)
It is not a case of Allah accepting the intercession, but a case of Allah deciding to forgive anyway, thus the forgiveness from Allah, and the intercession from the person, merely co-incide. The person's intercession will not change Allah's decision, as Allah knows best, but, that does not mean, that the two things cannot ever co-incide.
An analogy. If a watch is broken, it only ever reports one time, for the sake of discussion, let's say 430. Twice a day, it will be 430. That is not to say that the watch is correctly telling the time, or even working, it just means that it's report, and the time, are co-inciding with each other. Hense, the expression, that a broken clock is right twice a day. I would humbly suggest, that it is a similar situation with intercession. If Allah chooses to forgive, then He will forgive regardless of anything. If someone chooses to intercede, then that might co-incide with Allah's forgiveness, but, that does not mean that the intercession has changed Allah's decision, as Allah knows best.Peace.
Your theory is equally applicable to any sort of prayer.If God has decided something ,he is not going to change it.Then there is no use of praying for "yourself or others".Right?
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Salaams you guys,
just a thought don't take it literally though.
You do need to see to whom God is saying what ever he is saying.Example
God was talking to the children of Israel about their ordeals- I think.
247
Children of Israel! Call to mind the (special) favor which I bestowed upon you, and that I preferred you to all other (for My Message).248 (Intercession is not allowed- when Abraham intervened (with the then Pharaoh) to stop the slaughter of Jew boys.)
Then guard yourselves against a day when one soul shall not avail another nor shall intercession be accepted for her, nor shall compensation be taken from her, nor shall anyone be helped (from outside).
249 (Intercession is allowed- when Moses intervenes on behalf of the Jew?s and frees them.)
And remember, We delivered you from the people of Pharaoh They set you hard tasks and punishments, slaughtered your sons and let your women-folk live; therein was a tremendous trial from your Lord
God Bless.
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Your theory is equally applicable to any sort of prayer.If God has decided something ,he is not going to change it.Then there is no use of praying for "yourself or others".Right?
Peace
"Any sort of prayer" is not the topic of discussion. The topic of discussion, is intercession. Right?
(Asking a question you know to be wrong, and saying "right?" at the end, does not make that question correct.)
If Allah chooses to change His decisions, He will, but, it will not be because of Human persuasion, but becayuse He chooses.
Does the text say that intercession is forbidden? Yes or no.
Please review the analogy I made about the broken watch If the watch stops at 430, then that is the only time it tells. If someone just so happens to look at the watch at 430, in that instance, by coincidence the time appears to be correct. That does not mean that the watch is working. It does not mean that the next time the person looks at the watch they will see the correct time, because they will not. They will see 430, and it would then be 435 (or any other time) The two things just happened to coincide and happen at the same time. Such is the case with intercession. If someone chooses to intercede (the watch) and Allah has decided to forgive anyway, while it could appear that the intercession has had an effect, it would actually be a case of the intercession co-inciding with Allah deciding to forgive. That is how I understand the text on intercession, I hope my example has clarified the point.
Peace
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Your theory is equally applicable to any sort of prayer.If God has decided something ,he is not going to change it.Then there is no use of praying for "yourself or others".Right?
I'm glad you acknowledge that. We can finally make some progress and see that action, not prayer to a being who needs it not, will solve our problems. Of course, the kuffar west happens to have beaten us to it by 600 years but better late than never.
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Your theory is equally applicable to any sort of prayer.If God has decided something ,he is not going to change it.Then there is no use of praying for "yourself or others".Right?
Whoa your sayings is like God is not fair to anyone who sincerely prays to Him and anyone who just let God decides his actions and fate. But still, it's a question not a statement. A daring question i'd say.
handshake
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http//ourbeacon.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=258
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Peace all,
For THOSE WHO DO GOOD IS GOOD (reward) and more (than this); and blackness or ignominy shall not cover their faces; these are the dwellers of the garden; in it they shall abide. 1026.
And (as for) THOSE WHO HAVE EARNED EVIL, the punishment of an evil is the like of it, and abasement shall come upon them-- they shall have none to protect them from Allah-- as if their faces had been covered with slices of the dense darkness of night; these are the inmates of the fire; in it they shall abide. 1027.
And as to those who believe and DO GOOD DEEDS, He will pay them fully their rewards; and ALLAH DOES NOT LOVE THE UNJUST. 357.
Quran makes it clear that ?good will be the reward for those, who do good deeds?
And ?bad will be the reward for those, who do bad deed?. If you sow wheat, you will not reap Rice, it?s unnatural.Those who do good, don?t need any intercession to qualify for the promised reward, it?s like the students who work hard and concentrate on their studies, do not require intercession to pass their exams.
It?s the bad students who focus on intercession, so that they may be amongst the successful students, without hard work. If those who don't deserve, qualify through intercession to be amongst the ranks of those who deserve, this will absolutely be UNFAIR to those, who had worked extremely hard and fulfilled the fundamental requirements to achieve success. So in my opinion/understanding there is no intercession on the Day of Judgment because Allah is not unfair.
just a thought don't take it literally though.
You do need to see to whom God is saying what ever he is saying.I agree with you. we also have to ponder on other verses in order to understand a particular verse.
I think this verse may help us to understand and resolve the issue.
What! Do those who seek after evil ways think that WE SHALL HOLD THEM EQUAL WITH THOSE WHO BELIEVE AND DO RIGHTEOUS DEEDS,- that equal will be their life and their death? ILL IS THE JUDGMENT THAT THEY MAKE. 4521.
Allah created the heavens and the earth for just ends, and in order that EACH SOUL MAY FIND THE RECOMPENSE OF WHAT IT HAS EARNED and none of them be wronged. 4522.
peace
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Intercession is Praying to Allah for forgiveness for each other while living in this world. If you analyze the various verses, there is no intercession in the hereafter. On the day of judgement none shall plead before Allah either before or after the pronouncement. All sounds will be silenced before Allah except the footsteps of the moving people towards their destination.
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Salam, Peace,
here is my understanding, (Yusuf Ali translation ( )
I seek refuge in God against Satan the banished.
Bismi allahi arrahmani arrahimi.First of all, this totally reject sunnis view on intercession as per Quran, no where it says Mohamed will be intercessing on the Day of Jugement, nor Jesus (may God bless them).
In 248, 2123, and 2254 it is clearly mentionned no intercession shall be accepted
248
Then guard yourselves against a day when one soul shall not avail another nor shall intercession be accepted for her, nor shall compensation be taken from her nor shall anyone be helped (from outside).The intercession will not be accepted from a soul, intercessor would not be a soul.
while in 20109 and 1987 intercession would be allowed in special cases, translation in these cases need re-check
20109
On that Day shall no intercession avail except for those for whom permission has been granted by (Allah) Most Gracious and whose word is acceptable to Him.1987
Yusuf Ali
None shall have the power of intercession, but such a one as has received permission (or promise) from (Allah) Most Gracious.Pikthal
They will have no power of intercession, save him who hath made a covenant with his Lord.Shakir
They shall not control intercession, save he who has made a covenant with the Beneficent AllahMy translation
No one will possess intercession, but the one who has taken a promise from God.This re-check shows us people are the beneficiar of the "intercession" not the "actor/controller" of intercession, as by Quran no one shares "mulk" with God.
now the following questions naturally rise
Who has taken a promise from God?
What is the nature of the "intercessor" as it cannot be a soul as per 248 and 2123?
- Who has taken a promise from God?
as per Quran 263 (jews), 377, 3187, 514 (christians), 6152 (muslims), 1280, 337, 3315, 3323, 48,10, 578
Those are the ones who will have an "intercessor" with God permission.
-What is the nature of the "intercessor" as it cannot be a soul as per 248 and 2123?
If it cannot be a soul what can it be?
I personnaly think it is the Quran, why?20100
If any do turn away therefrom (Quran), verily they will bear a burden on the Day of Judgement;Then the opposite is true, by following the message, it will be a help on the DOJ
4344
And lo! it is in truth a Reminder for thee and for thy folk; and ye will be questioned.we will be questionned on the Reminder=Quran on the DOJ, so if we know and follow it, it will be a great help.
4051
Lo! We verily do help Our messengers, and those who believe, in the life of the world and on the day when the witnesses arise,witnesses are the messengers 441, 1689, 2278, 3345, and Quran reciting as per
1778
Establish regular prayers at the sun's decline till the darkness of the night, and the morning prayer and reading for the prayer and reading in the morning carry their testimony.Quran reading at dawn is "what" will intercess for us on the DOJ.
confirmed by
1061
In whatever business thou mayest be, and whatever portion thou mayest be reciting from the Qur'an and whatever deed ye (mankind) may be doing We are Witnesses thereof when ye are deeply engrossed therein. Nor is hidden from thy Lord (so much as) the weight of an atom on the earth or in heaven. And not the least and not the greatest of these things but are recorded in a clear Record.Conclusion
Quran reading is part of our prayers, Quran reading is witnessed and can be a of great help on the DOJ only and only if our commitment to God is true.
Allah knows better, may God guide and bless us.
- Who has taken a promise from God?