What type of Riba is prohibited ?
-
Dear Wakas, Riba linguistically means excessive gains in a business transection. Please, consider reading following link from Lane to undestand the concept.
Nur, has already explained the concept of ownership with referance. Here are just few more from AlKitab
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume3/00000189.pdf
517
5331
773
And for humans is only, what they strive for. Neither more nor less. Here is the referance.5339
Then questions to every one should be. How does one claim the ownerships of lands and countries? How does one claims ownership of resources of land that belongs to Rubb? How do you justify 100s and 1000s % profits in business transections? This is despite praying several times to Rubb.
Badar
-
Riba linguistically means excessive gains in a business transection.
Define 'excessive' - it's a vague term (especially when it comes to business transactions).
What many people miss/ignore is that 'riba' is in direct contrast to charity.
2270 Whatever you spend out of your monies, or whatever you pledge as a promise, certainly, God knows it. The wicked have no supporters.
2271 If you declare your charity, then it is acceptable; but if you conceal it and give it to the poor, then that is better for you. It depreciates some of your sins; and God is Ever-aware of all that you do.
2272 You are not responsible for their guidance, but it is God who will guide whomever He wishes. Whatever you spend out of goodness is for yourselves. Anything you spend should be in seeking God's presence. Whatever you spend out of goodness will be retuned to you, and you will not be wronged.
2273 As for the poor who face hardship in the cause of God, and cannot leave the land; the ignorant ones think they are rich from their abstention; you know them by their marks, they do not ask the people repeatedly. What you spend out of goodness, God is fully aware of it.
2274 Those who spend their money in the night and in the day, secretly and openly, they will have their reward at their Lord, there is no fear over them nor will they grieve.
2275 Those who consume usury (riba), do not rise (la ribala) except as the one who is being beaten by the devil out of direct touch. That is because they have said, "Trade is like usury (riba)." Indeed God has made trade lawful, yet He has forbidden usury (riba). Whoever has received understanding from His Lord and ceases, then he will be forgiven for what was before this and his case will be with God. But whoever returns, then they are the people of the fire, in it they will abide eternally.
From this verse alone we know that riba has nothing to do with trade. Your definition above is wrong, based on this verse.
2276 God wipes out the usury. God does not like any ingrate sinner.
2277 Those who acknowledge and do the reforms, and observe the Contact prayer, and contribute towards betterment, they will have their rewards at their Lord and there is no fear over them nor will they grieve.
2278 O you who acknowledge, be conscientious of God and give up what is left of the usury if you are those who have acknowledged.
'give up what is left of the usury' implies that it is some kind of interest imposed on someone - it has nothing to do with business transactions/trade. See 2275
2279 If you will not do this, then take notice of a war from God and His messenger. However, if you repent, then you will have back your principal money, you will not be wronged nor will you wrong.
2280 If the person is facing insolvency, then you shall wait until he becomes able. If you relinquish it as a charity it is better for you if you knew.
It becomes clear from these verses that 'riba' is in direct contrast to charity. Imposing interest on loans lent to the needy is 'riba'. Instead of this bad deed, we should give it away as charity to the needy, so the dont have to go through the trouble of paying back the debt that he/she has, as it would be extremely difficult or even impossible.
Interest on business loans and from banks to business people or medium-income to high-income people is not riba, because no one is being exploited and no one has a hard time to pay back the debt. Saying that it is 'high interest' or 'excessive return on busniess loans' is very vague/not clear at all and reflects a personal opinion. The definition that I gave with evidence from the Quran (especially with the using of context) is far more universally applicable and doesnt leave room for guess-work or conjecturing.
-
Salaam progressive1993,
you have ignored everything expressed and continued to promote usury, it is a heavy price we all pay for the views you propagate, you view the subject in isolation, to convince a Muslim of your views, against the centuries of example humanity has suffered, and now at the height of the usury system to defend the indefensible, it is not difficult to grasp, you must be an advocate of the usury system, I doubt any Muslim would take your promotions of usury seriously.
Examine the past to understand the future you wish to establish, the usury system is a criminal fraud, it is on the verge of collapse, this can not be escaped.
-
you have ignored everything expressed
So I have to adopt your view? Interesting...
and continued to promote usury
This is your personal opinion and also a lie. Can you not stand someone having a different opinion than yours?
it is a heavy price we all pay for the views you propagate, you view the subject in isolation, to convince a Muslim of your views, against the centuries of example humanity has suffered, and now at the height of the usury system to defend the indefensible, it is not difficult to grasp, you must be an advocate of the usury system, I doubt any Muslim would take your promotions of usury seriously.
rotfl
Examine the past to understand the future you wish to establish, the usury system is a criminal fraud, it is on the verge of collapse, this can not be escaped.
Read Quranic verses in context, and most importantly, respect other peoples' views.
Also, I want to point out a very imporant thing that makes your whole point invalid you did not provide ONE SINGLE VERSE from the Quran... that's pretty weak. As Wakas has said
Let us know when you return to citing actual evidence and the use of logic.
As I said clearly in my post, you and/or 1LNF may be right, but with the info presented, no intelligent reader can conclude anything. Of course, this is not to say you intended for the reader to conclude, you just may have been throwing something out there for consideration. No harm in that, but no Quranic references at all? Very little appeal to me.
I suggest not having preconceptions and reading what I posted with an open mind, instead of posting your personal opinion (which it is, due to no citing of Quranic evidence).
4724 Do they not study the Quran? Or are there locks on their minds?
4726 That is because they said to those who hated what God had sent down "We will obey you in certain matters." God knows their secrets.
6119 ...Many misguide with their personal opinion without knowledge; your Lord is fully aware of the transgressors.
Peace
-
Peace Wakas
peace 1LNF,
I read your post several times, and I still have no clue what you put to rest. It is possible I am missing something. If you can try and explain it to me again more clearly I will read it. If any other forum member understands what you said, perhaps they can help explain it to me.
As I said clearly in my post, you and/or 1LNF may be right, but with the info presented, no intelligent reader can conclude anything. Of course, this is not to say you intended for the reader to conclude, you just may have been throwing something out there for consideration. No harm in that, but no Quranic references at all? Very little appeal to me.
Let me try this again.
What I intended to put to rest was the concept the Al Riba refers only to compound interest. ( Note here that there is no attempt to define riba here. It is a challenge to those who have already defined it as compounded interest).
Now in 2275 we find that Al Riba is foorbidden. Can we agree on that?
In 3130, it is said that we must not devour Al Riba compounded. Does this then mean we must not devour compounded compounded interest? This does not make sense. Therefore I don't see how Al Riba can be defined as compounded anything.
I'm not sure if this clarifies my point at all.
Imraan
-
Dear Progressive you are resposible to define excessive for yourself, not me. Because only you know what physical efforts you have put in any business or for that mater in any transection. If you are unable evaluate it, please remember this, that your Rubb and my Rubb neither errors nor sleeps.
Badar
-
Dear Progressive you are resposible to define excessive for yourself, not me.
Wasn't it you who brought the "'excessive' gains in business transcations" issue up?
Your arguement "linguistically, 'riba' means..."
My arguement "if we look at the context in which 'riba' is used in the Quran and analyze the verses carefully, we find that..."Peace
-
-
Peace Progressive
I don't think that your conclusion based on 2275 is correct. Rather than it being obvious that riba has nothing to do with trade, it is obvious that there is some similarity that caused people to say that "trade is like riba".
While I don't agree with everything Abdun Nur says regarding particular forces he names as being at play in the global system (only because the quran does not allow conjecture), there are most certainly gross negative impacts on society due to the institution of usury. The quran demands that we use reason when understanding it & I think that to disregard the effects of usurious transactions is a mistake.
I also think that you are viewing the concept of riba in isolation. I would suggest that you research the origin of fiat currency as it is fundmental in understanding the concept of usury as we know it today. In the time of the quranic revelation, riba had to be understood in terms of issuing a loan of something that had intrinsic value & demanding more of the same back. In today's economy, the media of exchange have themselves become usurious. Currencies are themselves usurious today. Any way I think a more wholistic approach to the subject is in order. Remember 1736. Investigate the issue fully before drawing conclusions. If you have already investigated these issues & others in arriving at your conclusions, I apologise for the assumptions I have made. But if you have, I would like to take this discussion further since I find it hard to believe that a thorough investigation would lead to the conclusion you have reached regarding the permissibilty of usurious loans to people who are not in dire need.
Imraan
-
Peace Imraan,
I don't think that your conclusion based on 2275 is correct. Rather than it being obvious that riba has nothing to do with trade, it is obvious that there is some similarity that caused people to say that "trade is like riba".
This is exactly my point. Those who make conclusions such as "'riba' means 'excessive' gains from business transactions" have confused 'riba' with trade.
I also think that you are viewing the concept of riba in isolation. I would suggest that you research the origin of fiat currency as it is fundmental in understanding the concept of usury as we know it today. In the time of the quranic revelation, riba had to be understood in terms of issuing a loan of something that had intrinsic value & demanding more of the same back. In today's economy, the media of exchange have themselves become usurious. Currencies are themselves usurious today. Any way I think a more wholistic approach to the subject is in order. Remember 1736. Investigate the issue fully before drawing conclusions. If you have already investigated these issues & others in arriving at your conclusions, I apologise for the assumptions I have made. But if you have, I would like to take this discussion further since I find it hard to believe that a thorough investigation would lead to the conclusion you have reached regarding the permissibilty of usurious loans to people who are not in dire need.
My priority when defining the term 'riba' or finding out any other things/concepts in the Quran is the Quran itself. Did you carefully read my post and look at the context? Did God put in the verses about charity and contrast charity and 'riba' for nothing?
I will have a look at fiat currency.
-
Badar,
Dear progressive show me that there are any context for Riba in Al-Kitab. It is prohibited, period. Meaning no excessive gains are allowed under any circumstances. If one still insist upon excessive gains, he is declared to be at war with Rubb.
Badar
Did you even read my first post in this thread where I have explained my position using the Quran only, and not some dictionary?
Right now, it looks like you have no clue about what I have written.
Peace
-
Peace Progressive
Peace Imraan,
This is exactly my point. Those who make conclusions such as "'riba' means 'excessive' gains from business transactions" have confused 'riba' with trade.
My priority when defining the term 'riba' or finding out other things in the Quran is the Quran itself. Did you carefully read my post and look at the context? Did God put in the verses about charity and contrast charity and 'riba' for nothing?
I will have a look at fiat currency.
While the context is important, it should also be remembered that in order to define quranic terminology from the quran itself, it is necessary to employ tasreef (looking at other instances of the word & its root derivative in the quran). This assists us in removing preconceived ideas about quranic terminology that are a product of centuries of false indoctrination.
Imraan
-
Peace Imraan
Peace Progressive
While the context is important it should also be remembered that in order to define quranic terminology from the quran itself, it is necessary to employ tasreef (looking at other instances of the word & its root derivative in the quran). This assists us in removing preconceived ideas about quranic terminology that are a product of centuries of false indoctrination.
What does tasreef tell you?
What does the context tell you?
I have highlited the word 'ribala' in my post. I should have also highlited 'yurbi'.
From PRL
Ra-Ba-Waw = it increased/augmented, the practicing/taking of usury, excess/addition, an addition obtained more than what is supposed to be received, become high/grown up/large/swollen/risen, mount up, to grow/swell, out of breath, panting. rabiyatun - ever-increasing, severe. arba (comp. form) - more numerous, more increased.
The context is thoroughly discussed in my first post.
-
Salaam progressive,
you think I wish you to accept my view of usury , no, I wish you to understand what you are attempting to convince others of, namely that usury is acceptable under certain conditions, and even more perversely you wish to support your conclusions through misunderstanding the verses of the Qur'an, even with the poor translations into English available, it is clear usury is a fundamental prohibition, and its removal from society will establish freedom, in conjunction with the other prerequisite to freedom the removal of all human sovereignty, again this is a foundation of Islamic freedom.
The present world usury system will collapse shortly, it is based on a fraud, I will simplify the explanation a little, every currency, the pound, the dollar, the Euro, whichever currency you wish to pick are all fiat, meaning they only have value because the government of the state allowing the issue of the currency say?s it has value.
All the central banks, like for example the bank of England, or the Federal reserve are private companies that pay no tax and show no accounts, they print money for the cost of printing and lend it at interest. This mean every note in circulation has been borrowed, by a government, a company, or an individual, and this is the crucial problem with this fraud, over twenty years for every note lent, the bank receives on average four back, so for this system to continue, the bank must double the amount of currency in circulation every ten years, which means your savings half in value every ten years, the cost of goods doubles every ten years, the amount of taxation must increase and services must decline as the bank demands a greater and greater share of the tax collected.
So this means the volume of money in the world must double every ten years, it is easy when viewed from this perspective to see the problem, you can only double for so long before you arrive at sums so enormous it becomes impossible to lend that volume of money.
When the money, been drawn back into the banking system exceeds the money leaving the banking system, you get mass unemployment, businesses go under on mass, governments go bankrupt, poverty spreads throughout the world.
The way the banking system addresses this in the short term is to manufacture wars, wars are the best way to inject vast amounts of money into the world economy.
Does any of this sound familiar?
-
@ AN,
are you deliberately trying to distort my view on riba, make a straw man and mislead
the readers here concerning what my position on riba is? What is wrong with your logic,
arguementation and reading skills? Do you think your position is more valid than mine,
although you have
provided ZERO Quranic evidence? This is AGAINST THE FORUM RULES! I suggest that you
read my first post on this thread 3 times, and to read about what the Quran says about
people who bring no proofs for their claims and bring forward illogical ones.I don't have much time right now. I'll get back to you tomorrow.
-
@ AN,
are you deliberately trying to distort my view on riba, make a straw man and mislead
the readers here concerning what my position on riba is? What is wrong with your logic,
arguementation and reading skills? Do you think your position is more valid than mine,
although you have
provided ZERO Quranic evidence? This is AGAINST THE FORUM RULES! I suggest that you
read my first post on this thread 3 times, and to read about what the Quran says about
people who bring no proofs for their claims and bring forward illogical ones.I don't have much time right now. I'll get back to you tomorrow.
Peace
Brother you also never produce Quranic evidence. You rely upon 19ers distorted Quranic translation.Regards
-
Peace
Brother you also never produce Quranic evidence. You rely upon 19ers distorted Quranic translation.Regards
salaam brother
would you please suggest any Quranic translation which you think is not distorted? thanks
-
peace Imraan,
Yes, I agree that 'al riba' is harram (~forbidden) as per 2275.I believe 3130 literally says "... doubling re-doubling" or "doubling, multiplying" or could be an expression for "compounded over and over" (I have not checked this last rendering). My point was that theoretically riba could mean (simple or compounded) interest as long as it did not go over doubling - this is one possible interpretation of 3130. Not that I actually agree with that possibility, I'm just saying. But if we take 2275 into account, then whatever riba is it is harram, even if it did mean (simple or compounded) interest. As you say, it may be a gradual banning process, I did think of this too but I did not check it.
I'm not sure if the above equates to what you "put to rest" originally, but maybe thats clarified.
peace bkanwar2,
your definition of riba meaning "excessive gains in a business transaction" is refuted by 3130 and 2279.###############
From my studies, it is clear from the usage of riba and its root RBW it is a type of growth (I quite like 3039 for this). If it grows, its riba, to me thats clear. A question then arises, what if there is an addition with no growth, e.g. I lend you 100 gold coins, you give me 110 gold coins in a year, with both parties agreeing obviously. Of course, even after a year and no repayment, it cannot rise, and also any addition (i.e. the extra 10) is not recoverable under Quranic law, and potentially the whole sum has to be remitted as charity if it cannot be paid . Is this still riba? I'm not sure, as I have not studied it, nor have I seen anyone prove it is or is not.
If we look at what trade is, we can see that trade is often an object + added value (e.g. time spent collecting it, refining it, marketing it, testing it etc etc), so an addition has been placed on it, but is this addition riba? I think clearly not. So, is there a difference in the examples, of the additions? Most will say yes, and I agree to a certain extent. But it is almost never black and white like this. What if in trade a person adds X on top, that not only covers costs, but also makes a profit (a necessity), which is needed for reinvestment, buying stock to sell etc. Is this addition riba? This addition looks a lot like the first addition, and at this point becomes quite subjective. Secondly, what if the person lending 100 gold coins asks for stock or items of some kind worth 110 gold coins at the current market value, is this riba? As we can see, it is not black and white, so my view is that AQ would adopt the most simple and practical solution, and that seems to me, to be no growth. As long as it is remembered fixed additions are not recoverable, and the whole sum may have to be given as charity if unable to pay. This is of course not based on a fiat currency system, and it does not answer if this aspect is for mumin or everyone, but if mumin were in charge of an area then they could I assume make the laws for that area.As I said however, I have not studied it, but the above is my thoughts at this time.
