The difference between us and sunnis/shias
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Definitely use your mind and do not act stupid by removing Quranic Verses from the Quran.
19 er the worst possible Quran interpreters without mind and knowledge.Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I think this is an ad hominem fallacy.
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Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I think this is an ad hominem fallacy.
Do all 19ers accept in the removal of the two verses?
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Peace
Do all 19ers accept in the removal of the two verses?
I dont really like the word '19ers', to start off..
My point had nothing to do with removal of verses or anything like that. I just commented on the silly/ignorant posts by Q_s.
To answer your question according to us, nothing has been removed. Lets not go OT, though. You can discuss this in the Submitters/Code19 thread. offtopic laugh
peace
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Peace,
Pardon my ignorance
Exactly what are the two verses that they do not approve of and why. Could someone please mention the verses.
Asking questions is not ignorance. 9128 and 9129 are not approved of. You might want to research this issue bit on the i-net.
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Peace
I dont really like the word '19ers', to start off..
My point had nothing to do with removal of verses or anything like that. I just commented on the silly/ignorant posts by Q_s.
To answer your question according to us, nothing has been removed. Lets not go OT, though. You can discuss this in the Submitters/Code19 thread. offtopic laugh
peace
ok subbmitters. handshake Sorry if I sounded offensive.. I never meant any!
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ok subbmitters. handshake Sorry if I sounded offensive.. I never meant any!
If you mean 'submitters' as in International Submitters Union, then I am not addressed. If you mean 'submitters' as in 'muslim/submitter to God alone', then I feel addressed. No offense taken.
peace
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If you mean 'submitters' as in United Submitters Union, then I am not addressed. If you mean 'submitters' as in 'muslim/submitter to God alone', then I feel addressed. No offense taken.
peace
yes I agree we should choose our words VERY carefully.
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If you mean 'submitters' as in International Submitters Union, then I am not addressed. If you mean 'submitters' as in 'muslim/submitter to God alone', then I feel addressed. No offense taken.
peace
bravo I meant God aloners
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yes I agree we should choose our words VERY carefully.
I agree, especially in a forum where we have to use the typed word, and it's impossible to convey tone.
Sarcasm is effective, but is really hard to detect from the written word.
Is it possible for the admins to add an emoticon to indicate sarcasm? And for forum users to use it when appropriate (if it is added)?
That would prevent unnecessary misunderstanding.
Just my two cents,
Sarah
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Translation (Hilali & Muhsin)
It is He Who has sent down to you (Muhammad SAW) the Book (this Quran). In it are Verses that are entirely clear, they are the foundations of the Book (and those are the Verses of Al-Ahkam (commandments, etc.), Al-Faraid (obligatory duties) and Al-Hudud (legal laws for the punishment of thieves, adulterers, etc.)); and others not entirely clear. So as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation (from the truth) they follow that which is not entirely clear thereof, seeking Al-Fitnah (polytheism and trials, etc.), and seeking for its hidden meanings, but none knows its hidden meanings save Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say "We believe in it; the whole of it (clear and unclear Verses) are from our Lord." And none receive admonition except men of understanding.
From this awesome principle of Allah , the Most High as constructed in His book , we can glean two points very easily
01- All Islamic laws, legislations , rituals , beliefs etc. which can be categorized under ?Usule Din? are clearly mentioned in the Quran . There are no chances of ambiguity ,short-comings , confusions or incompleteness in those verses . We certainly have no necessity to peep into other books apart from the Quran to know and understand them .
02- Those allegorical verses are not the foundation of Islam . We are told to believe them only, without arguing its multiple meanings which are not so clear .
In fact Shia and Sunni are the victims of the 02nd point here . They invented a series of Hadith books and Tafsir books to unveil those multiple meanings of the Quran and waged war against one another to shove them to swallow it . As a consequence due to Allah?s wrath they are divided into pieces and humiliated by the non-Muslims. More heartbreaking in the fact that they also refused to admit point no. 01 by propagating that the Quran is not clear at all on the basic beliefs of a Muslim . Hence they need some human-gods like Ahle Bayat or Sahbas etc. to explain them . According to Almighty Allah they are the doers of Fitnah on this earth (it is literary true when somebody sees a thousand years history of these two sects on their blood-shed activities in the name of Islam ).
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In a discussion today my friend were discussing random topics in Islam. He claimed that hadith are infallible, the prophet was infallible, the imams that interpret hadith are infallible (because hadith are so clear and elaborating that there are no two sides), ect.
You should suggest to your friend that he/she missed one statement..
"him/her self is also infallible"
Thus no point of arguing with such 'perfect' being.
Lakum Dienukum Walyadien..Salam / Peace
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After about a year of contemplating, I have come to the conclusion that the different between us and shias/sunnis is that we believe in the freedom of interpreting religion, while they don't.
In other words;
- we used our brains and they don't..
- we used logical thinking to spark the discussion while they uses fear and threat to spark the discussion.
Salam / Peace
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Peace,
Many Sunnis believe in the freedom of interpreting their religion as well, and so do many Shiites; this is not unique to "God Aloners". Also, who is the "us"/"they" you're referring to? Many of the so-called "Qur'aan Aloners" on here are no different than Sunnis and Shias. They claim that the Sunnis and Shias are misguided because they use the hadiyth and sunna writings, while Sunnis and Shias say the opposite of them. In reality, both views are wrong...
The Qur'aan condemns sectarian ideologies within Al Islaam. Sectarian ideologies are built on separation and critical judgement of opposing groups. As soon as "God Aloners" began pointing fingers at the sects of Islaam, claiming that their followers are not "real Muslims", they became a sect themselves, since they claim to be the only guided ones. This makes them just like the other sectarian groups of Islaam, which are rejected by Allah...
The main difference between the "Qur'aan Aloners", the "Sunnis", and the "Shias" is that they have different means of interpreting the scripture. Each group interprets the scripture in light of their own understanding. All of the groups, including the Sunnis and Shias, claim to serve Allah alone, ascribing no partners to Him. All claim to be the "real Muslims", all claim that Muhammad is the prophet and messenger of Allah (most say that he is the final prophet), all claim that they follow the Qur'aan in truthfulness, and all claim that the other groups are misguided. Therefore, all of them are sectarian.
Allah is the best judge,
Ahmad
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Peace,
Many Sunnis believe in the freedom of interpreting their religion as well, and so do many Shiites; this is not unique to "God Aloners". Also, who is the "us"/"they" you're referring to? Many of the so-called "Qur'aan Aloners" on here are no different than Sunnis and Shias. They claim that the Sunnis and Shias are misguided because they use the hadiyth and sunna writings, while Sunnis and Shias say the opposite of them. In reality, both views are wrong...
The Qur'aan condemns sectarian ideologies within Al Islaam. Sectarian ideologies are built on separation and critical judgement of opposing groups. As soon as "God Aloners" began pointing fingers at the sects of Islaam, claiming that their followers are not "real Muslims", they became a sect themselves, since they claim to be the only guided ones. This makes them just like the other sectarian groups of Islaam, which are rejected by Allah...
The main difference between the "Qur'aan Aloners", the "Sunnis", and the "Shias" is that they have different means of interpreting the scripture. Each group interprets the scripture in light of their own understanding. All of the groups, including the Sunnis and Shias, claim to serve Allah alone, ascribing no partners to Him. All claim to be the "real Muslims", all claim that Muhammad is the prophet and messenger of Allah (most say that he is the final prophet), all claim that they follow the Qur'aan in truthfulness, and all claim that the other groups are misguided. Therefore, all of them are sectarian.
Allah is the best judge,
Ahmad
Well said bro... each to his own, and lets not be quick to judge others. Leave that to God eh?
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Peace,
Many Sunnis believe in the freedom of interpreting their religion as well, and so do many Shiites; this is not unique to "God Aloners". Also, who is the "us"/"they" you're referring to? Many of the so-called "Qur'aan Aloners" on here are no different than Sunnis and Shias. They claim that the Sunnis and Shias are misguided because they use the hadiyth and sunna writings, while Sunnis and Shias say the opposite of them. In reality, both views are wrong...
The Qur'aan condemns sectarian ideologies within Al Islaam. Sectarian ideologies are built on separation and critical judgement of opposing groups. As soon as "God Aloners" began pointing fingers at the sects of Islaam, claiming that their followers are not "real Muslims", they became a sect themselves, since they claim to be the only guided ones. This makes them just like the other sectarian groups of Islaam, which are rejected by Allah...
The main difference between the "Qur'aan Aloners", the "Sunnis", and the "Shias" is that they have different means of interpreting the scripture. Each group interprets the scripture in light of their own understanding. All of the groups, including the Sunnis and Shias, claim to serve Allah alone, ascribing no partners to Him. All claim to be the "real Muslims", all claim that Muhammad is the prophet and messenger of Allah (most say that he is the final prophet), all claim that they follow the Qur'aan in truthfulness, and all claim that the other groups are misguided. Therefore, all of them are sectarian.
Allah is the best judge,
Ahmad
Well said. I was once told, do not point your finger at someone doing something wrong as you have three fingers pointing back at you.
Peace
Hope
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Well said. I was once told, do not point your finger at someone doing something wrong as you have three fingers pointing back at you.
Peace
Hope
Agree... 'self-corrections' and 'self-criticism' is defintely the thing that's very lacking in Sunni/Shia world today.
They always point their finger to someone else, especially the Jews, The Christians, the western world and of course the secular.Salam / Peace
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Peace,
Many Sunnis believe in the freedom of interpreting their religion as well, and so do many Shiites; this is not unique to "God Aloners". Also, who is the "us"/"they" you're referring to? Many of the so-called "Qur'aan Aloners" on here are no different than Sunnis and Shias. They claim that the Sunnis and Shias are misguided because they use the hadiyth and sunna writings, while Sunnis and Shias say the opposite of them. In reality, both views are wrong...
The Qur'aan condemns sectarian ideologies within Al Islaam. Sectarian ideologies are built on separation and critical judgement of opposing groups. As soon as "God Aloners" began pointing fingers at the sects of Islaam, claiming that their followers are not "real Muslims", they became a sect themselves, since they claim to be the only guided ones. This makes them just like the other sectarian groups of Islaam, which are rejected by Allah...
The main difference between the "Qur'aan Aloners", the "Sunnis", and the "Shias" is that they have different means of interpreting the scripture. Each group interprets the scripture in light of their own understanding. All of the groups, including the Sunnis and Shias, claim to serve Allah alone, ascribing no partners to Him. All claim to be the "real Muslims", all claim that Muhammad is the prophet and messenger of Allah (most say that he is the final prophet), all claim that they follow the Qur'aan in truthfulness, and all claim that the other groups are misguided. Therefore, all of them are sectarian.
Allah is the best judge,
Ahmad
The shites or shias believe that interpretation is only the right of their infallible imam and they themselves cannot understand the intricacies of the Quran. It is only the divinely guided imam that can dare to interpret the Quran and the shia masses are only obliged to follow(Blindly). Whereas the original or the earliest sunnis believe that interpretation can be done by anyone who has the knowledge to do so. This was the dividing point between them. The sunnis were the people of independent reasoning whereas the shias were the people of blind following. The rallying cry of the earlier shias was that while the sunnis have to commit to ijtihad(independent reasoning) and ijma(consensus of community) we rely solely on our divinely guided imam to tell us what God commands us to do. That was another story that one of the imams of the shias(Ismaili Imam to be exact) simply declared that the Quran was time bound and was no more required to be followed in effect meaning from now on to follow whatever he(imam) says. Anyway the shias also claim (as i read in a book by Reza Aslan) that the infallible imams are intermediaries between man and god and that no one can go to heaven without their approval. Only one thing missing here in my belief are stone idols of their imams.
Sunnis committed the mistake of making an interpretation of the earliest times binding upon them believing it was the words of the prophet(at the behest of Imam shafi who erroneously thought of sunnah as an ideal concept {meaning what the prophet said or did} as opposed to a living process of interpretation) which eventually lead to the closing of the gates of Ijtihad(independent reasoning). I believe if the gates of ijtihad could be opened once again this mistake(of making hadith obligatory) could be undone. See any view of the reformists that have come in Islam to date. All the reformists (that have come to date in Islam) have said the same thing "open the damn gates of Ijtihad" but i guess no one cares or is listening for that matter. I hope someone does listen sooner or later because if not we may very well have to make the choice that the West made which was to divorce religion from ones life altogether. Secularism was a natural response to the blind following of the Vatican city and its excesses and the West finally got its reformation and renaissance which was full of knowledge but of-course devoid of God. I truly hope we do not have to make the same choice and that someone out there will be brave enough to think of a way to open the gates of Ijtihad(independent reasoning) and undo the mistakes of the past.
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Do you think it is as simple (or difficult) as ijtihad?
Sunni?s acknowledge the theory of ijtihad provided you follow a scholar or get ijaza from one. So either way you?re linked back to the 4 schools of thought.
I think some people do ijtihad in their own time however when they hear rulings from imams, fatwas from sheikhs, hadiths from bukhari their thinking gets skewed so they don?t progress.
I don?t understand why sunni?s limited themselves to the 4 imams at least shia?s have marja?s with alive scholars today, yet they?re still faulty.
It?s easy to find faults but hard to find solutions, how would you think you could ?revive? ijtihad in the way your thinking?I?d really like to know more about imam shafi and his role on hadith. know of any books/ site i could read?
I think part of the problem is people not knowing history. People will always blind follow because it?s easy and it is accepted. I think if you can get people to read history it might get them thinking because they?re too scared to read their own book of belief as they might misinterpret it so history might help i think. Though you can lead a horse to water but you can?t make it drink.
I doubt religion will be divorced all together, how hopeful is the individual? and what efforts do they make? Suggestions isn?t enough unfortunately, proactive action is important. That's why it's good to find like minded people so you can work as a team, project by project.
You gotta remember as well, religion is something people are really emotional about, so if you tend to threaten their beliefs, no one will even consider the argument.
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Do you think it is as simple (or difficult) as ijtihad?
Sunni?s acknowledge the theory of ijtihad provided you follow a scholar or get ijaza from one. So either way you?re linked back to the 4 schools of thought.
I think some people do ijtihad in their own time however when they hear rulings from imams, fatwas from sheikhs, hadiths from bukhari their thinking gets skewed so they don?t progress.
I don?t understand why sunni?s limited themselves to the 4 imams at least shia?s have marja?s with alive scholars today, yet they?re still faulty.
It?s easy to find faults but hard to find solutions, how would you think you could ?revive? ijtihad in the way your thinking?I?d really like to know more about imam shafi and his role on hadith. know of any books/ site i could read?
I think part of the problem is people not knowing history. People will always blind follow because it?s easy and it is accepted. I think if you can get people to read history it might get them thinking because they?re too scared to read their own book of belief as they might misinterpret it so history might help i think. Though you can lead a horse to water but you can?t make it drink.
I doubt religion will be divorced all together, how hopeful is the individual? and what efforts do they make? Suggestions isn?t enough unfortunately, proactive action is important. That's why it's good to find like minded people so you can work as a team, project by project.
You gotta remember as well, religion is something people are really emotional about, so if you tend to threaten their beliefs, no one will even consider the argument.
Reformists firmly believe that the revival of Islam is as simple or difficult as opening the gates of Ijtihad. Ijtihad or independent reasoning is the only way forward for the Muslims. Opening of the gates of Ijtihad will immediately result in two things the first that Muslims will critically evaluate whatever they have received so from their forefathers and correct any mistakes that there forefathers made and secondly they will proactively use independent reasoning in tandem with the Quran to meet the challenges that they face today. That is the beauty of Ijtihad that you do not have to follow any scholar blindly nor do you need ijaza from anyone. Ijtihad or independent reasoning is the way of life for Muslims whereas all the religions of the world follow 'blind following' we are the people of knowledge and through knowledge do we seek out our lord. God himself exhorts mankind in the Quran to witness his creation and that these are signs for people who think.
The closing of the gates of Ijtihad means that Muslims are limited to the four interpreters(schools of thought) and that no new interpretations are allowed. Binding anyone to any interpretation is taqid(blind following) and is wrong. No interpretation whether hadith, or the interpretations of the salaf or the interpretations of the four interpreters is binding on everyone. Interpretation by its very nature is not binding, it is either relevant or not relevant anymore. Interpretations is an ongoing process it never stops as new variables come into our lives we use reasoning in tandem with the Holy Book to solve these problems. Interpretation is a human activity and errors do happen whether academic errors or deliberate errors(committed by the enemies of Islam). Thus previous interpretations can serve as a guide but they must be critically evaluated to remove the errors contained therein. The imams and sheikhs that you talk about believe in taqlid(blind following) and guide you by their knowledge of previous interpretations. They are the relics of the past and do not permit anyone to commit to new interpretations by using reason in tandem with the knowledge of the Quran. They say that whatever there was to know in the Quran has been explained by the previous interpreters. Does that make any sense to you, nor does it make sense to me. Quite a long(and very interesting i might add) story it is as to why the sunnis are limited to the four interpreters and why no new interpretations comes about. Anyhow the limiting to the four interpreters refers to what is called the closing of the gates of Ijtihad. The key lies in learning about the tradition itself and separating the wheat from the chaff.
Shias developed a new system when the twelfth imam went into occultation and that is the marja taqlid today since the old order became obsolete with the twelfth imam went into hiding, went missing or whatever . Suffice to say they broke further into two sects the Akhbaris(living in obscurity nowadays) and the Usulis the former favoring the previous system and the latter taking a lot from their sunni cousins to develop the new system that is prevalent is Iran today. Ijtihad is totally the domain of the sunnis, has always been since the death of the prophet but without a divine imam to guide them they had to resort to extreme measures and they did what(accepted Ijtihad) for which they had condemned the sunnis for centuries. Anyway they use a system which is a mix of 'blind following' and independent reasoning and the results are not good that is all i can say. Anyhow these are two distinct systems that were were followed by the sunnis and shias and their history goes back much further back to the pagans, Jews and Christians. Seek out my previous posts if you want to know more.
If the system of blind following is not abandoned by the Muslims than the choice of secularism becomes a real choice as people naturally desire to have progress in their lives. They would prefer the company of Islam along with progress in their lives but if Islam becomes like Christianity and refuses to go forward than it may very well have to be abandoned like Christianity. Then we will become like them we will say that we are Muslims but will know next to nothing about what Islam is.
Read about what Islamic reformists are saying about our Islam. My personal favorite is Fazlur Rahman Malik. His works are hard to come by. Anyway try to read what all the reformists are saying about the religion of Islam. A quick search on the google will bring out all the names of the reformists and you can than get their works or books.