My question is why must the innocent suffer?
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I think you might have misunderstood me, childhood innocence is a construction that adults make; it doesn?t exist.
Culpability has nothing to do with innocence. To answer your question, yes though i?d say you have a wrong choice of words. Let me give you an example Child A wants the toy that child B has, Child A hits child B intentionally and snatches the toy. You can argue the child doesn?t know better, but one can argue the child has been taught hitting is wrong and unacceptable. The child is responsible for their actions.
Off course you have adopted the discourse that children are innocent (based on my interpretation) and aren?t culpable because they are simply children with no voice, with no power with nothing other than adult dominance and fear. Dunno where you live though children have a voice. Yes adults can obstruct their rights but they can also impede on other adults rights. Suffering isn?t only limited to children.
Suffering of humanity is not less significant than the suffering of children. Children are part of humanity all humans with souls shouldn?t suffer, even the ones without souls! I could argue that a person with an additional need (special need) is much more in need than the so called innocent child. Depending on the severity they may never ever have a voice, they may never be able to physically retaliate, they are locked up within themselves within society. Don?t let ?innocence? of children make you overlook others.
IF you so believe children are more important and the importance of them not suffering is far greater than any other being, prove it.
All of us were children and we all grew up. These children that come to life are brought up in an adult world of discourse; if you can?t change adults thinking don?t expect miracles on children. The environment will always be constrictive. I think you might like to watch a documentary on this, geography impacts.
Guns, Germs, and Steel The Fates of Human Societies by Jarod DiamondRemember you're dealing with centuries of contstructions, miracles don't happen over night.
You can?t expect a world with total harmony of no bias, it?s nonexistent. How would you like it or expect it to be in your ideal world of realism. Because you?re talking realistic right, not some fairy tale?
These children grow up to be adults (some don?t) though you?d think if they really believed in their sufferings they would be an activist to aim for a better life?
You have some interesting thoughts though i don?t entirely agree with you.
Children as much as adults suffer, no one deserves to suffer.
We?re not superhuman to save the world but we can do our share, 1 person makes a difference.
As an adult it is possible for you, even if you were killed for it, to face your abuser without fear in the knowledge of what is taking place, and where is could lead, a child can not, and this is the difference.
I disagree, Fear exists in adults also.
Salam
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Salaam Sarah,
You seem to have misunderstood me, I am not talking of the fear of the children, I'm saying the fear of the adults is imprinted upon the children.
When a child hits another and steals the toy, this is learned behaviour, it maybe from other sources, other than the parents directly, but they begin as a blank sheet of paper.
Who then is culpable, you say it has nothing to do with innocence, this makes little sense, they are intrinsically linked, however blame is not the relevant aspect under discussion.
Suffering of humanity is not less than the suffering of children, a callous statement, this being your perspective, under the logic you wish to present, could you explain the examples I sighted earlier.
These situation exist for some children within the world today
A child forced to work as a prostitute at the age of 4, under your logic is culpable?
A child beaten and tortured to death at 2, culpable?
A child starving alone, abandoned, culpable?
A child trained to kill, and committing murders, culpable?
You state a child is responsible for their actions, a bold statement, please explain in detail how this is the case?
Why are children so important, you ask.
As I have been explaining, if you start with a clean sheep of paper, the child, adults indoctrinate, subjugate, confuse and instil fear within the pure soul of the child.
Making ultimately a copy of themselves, this is known as a cycle of abuse, of course you say the children do it themselves, but I?m not convinced.
This means adults are the problem, children are the solution, if you break the cycle of abuse, the adults would also escape the misery they impart.
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Fear of adults is imprinted upon children to a certain degree they call that social referencing. Though not entirely some children have totally irrational fears not linked with adults.
No actually children can hit without learning in the way i think you?re describing, it could be purely experimentation. Each child reacts differently.
The one who is culpable depends on the laws. A child hitting another is still responsible for hitting. That doesn?t mean the child gets the blame.
What is responsibility and why do we have it? You see you identifying innocence with children indicates when they get older they are not, so in that case adults are evil.
So you think because i say humans suffer (adults included), i?m heartless because i don?t segregate children within their own real of suffering and give them ?special attention? in the way your concept are.
That?s judgmental.A child is not culpable of other people?s actions. You think adults aren?t forced into doing things?
A child acts within their means of understanding be it limited or great. don?t think of it as adult like responsibilities. Their self awareness is much different than how adults perceive things. I gave you an example child hitting another child, they are responsible, a child ripping a book they are responsible. A child refusing to eat.
A child can say no to things, being forced into things is a form of oppression that even adults have and go through. i don?t believe that is right. It is a sad state what people go through. Some people choose to follow such things because that?s their method of survival again it doesn?t mean it is right.
Like i said earlier, anything that causes harm isn?t acceptable all those things you mention cause harm.
A child will never be a clean sheet of paper the min they are born into the world. Even in a perfect world.
A child grows into an adult provided they live, so how do they make a copy of the adults if by then they have the free will to be as they wish? And recognise injustice, possibly they recognise injustice when they are much younger. Definitely they do.
Maybe you should consider being a member of unicef http//www.unicef.org/
if you can't support adults away from harm who are suffering, how do you expect children who are under the guidance of these adults to be free from oppression.
Salam
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Salaam Sarah,
I can see you have a single view and can not express anything beyond it, I asked you specific question, which you ignored, you may believe children are guilt, and complicit with the abusers, but I would disagree, I have explained my view on both children and adults, I have defined my parameters, which you disregard, this then becomes a one sided debate, so I'll leave you to your views in peace.
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i disagree
i believe your views are single, i am simply showing you different perspective though you choose not to accept it. that's your choice.
i didn't ignore your question, you just refused to accept my answer.
in terms of abusers, the one receiving such abuse is the oppressed one, your focus is on children you just brushed on adults.
no one deserves suffering, why people suffer is because of a number of reasons. on your own you have no ability to prevent or provide solutions for all causes simply because you cannot control others actions.
Would be nice to live in a world of happiness free from suffering though humans are weak and such things are far fetched.
Salam.
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Salaam Sarah,
I get the idea I have annoyed you, don't take it to heart.
I don't wish to alter the world, as this is not in my power, so would be futile, and I have never mentioned this, I wish to understand the system, both human and the greater creations systems, as far as I am able.
Suffering is objective in the eyes of a child, they suffer and can not understand why, to an adult suffering is subjective, this is the difference you refuse to consider, but you will never do so, that is evident.
My other point you also refuse to understand is if you change the adults behaviour towards the child, the child will become a different adult, if that new adult changes their behaviour towards the next generation of children, they would develop into a slightly better version of an adult, and so forth.
But the real question still remains how can the damaged be reconciled to the benefit?
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Curious, did you study child psychology or adult psychology?
I think many people undermine the child. For some children it could be objective for some subjective.
Off course adult behaviour to a child will change the child, i don?t see how you explained that before. anything in the environment from physical aspects or human resources will affect the child. I mentioned earlier
Children are brought up in an adult discourse world, inevitably they will be indoctrinate due so social norms of the time, be it from family, religion/no religion or whatever.
When they become adults they would make their own choices.
I didn?t understand your last question.
No hard feelings.
Salam.
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Salaam,
as I have explained, the real question is why do the innocent suffer, I may have presumed it did not require explanation, but to make things clear here is the question.
The parameters of innocence within this question are
Powerlessness to prevent the suffering.
Ignorance as to why you suffer.
Blamelessness from any previous acts.
The chance to develop you Ruh removed.
The chance to form correct shepherds (beliefs) denied.
The chance to become more than the sum of your actions denied.
The parameters of the why.
We are created for a purpose, and this world has been manifest to train us for that purpose, and we are tested, which I have explained on my website if you?re interested, if this is the case, then the innocent denied the chance to take the test, from the actions of nature, or humanity at large, taking their lives, or even if they are no killed directly and mature into adulthood, the abuse and suffering they have endured would in many cases preclude them from development, what is the benefit of this reality to the innocent?
If no benefit, why are they excluded from the test?
If they are excluded from the test what purpose does this serve?
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Salaam,
as I have explained, the real question is why do the innocent suffer, I may have presumed it did not require explanation, but to make things clear here is the question.
The parameters of innocence within this question are
Powerlessness to prevent the suffering.
Ignorance as to why you suffer.
Blamelessness from any previous acts.
The chance to develop you Ruh removed.
The chance to form correct shepherds (beliefs) denied.
The chance to become more than the sum of your actions denied.
The parameters of the why.
We are created for a purpose, and this world has been manifest to train us for that purpose, and we are tested, which I have explained on my website if you?re interested, if this is the case, then the innocent denied the chance to take the test, from the actions of nature, or humanity at large, taking their lives, or even if they are no killed directly and mature into adulthood, the abuse and suffering they have endured would in many cases preclude them from development, what is the benefit of this reality to the innocent?
If no benefit, why are they excluded from the test?
If they are excluded from the test what purpose does this serve?
Where did these parameters come from?
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Peace Abdun Nur, all
Your question Why must the innocent suffer? For the same reasons anyone suffers.
Why must anyone suffer? To learn and to grow.
Babies suffer from pain caused by hunger, so they cry. They learn how to communicate with those around them.
Humans suffered from cold, so they learned how to handle fire to benefit from it and to avoid being harmed with it.
Humans suffered from having to bring water from rivers and wells manually, so they invented canalization, irrigation and plumbing to spare themselves all the pain.
Also, If we don't feel pain from injuries, we might end up dying from the most benign ones.
Suffering is a prerequisite to human evolution.
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Salaam Rev.John,
only to try to make clear to Sarah what innocent is referencing, however it is flogging a dead horse as far as she is concerned, but I've learned my leason, I'll simply ignore her in future.
Sarah is a very intelligent lady, I'm sure she has valid points
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only to try to make clear to Sarah what innocent is referencing, however it is flogging a dead horse as far as she is concerned, but I've learned my leason, I'll simply ignore her in future.
Lol! in the way you are trying to make me understand let me tell you something. Someone can be ?innocent? in one situation and not innocent in another. Innocence is subjective and power shifts. You might like to read work on Foucault to understand what i mean.
Salam )
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I Question why?
I flounder dissipated,
drained of fervour.Humanities designation an irony,
its affront surrounds me,
inexplicably each mind labours to become less than nothing.Their tangential thoughts exchange in ignorance,
rife this engineered psychosis labours,
wearing down passion to resolute drudgery.I flounder,
disconsolate I hold humanity in contempt,
deeply and solemnly.My thoughts spawn a fountain,
perplexed,
bewildered at pervasive acts perverse to reason,
from fabricated belief building each new feral mind.I flounder,
like a landed fish,
isolated from the ocean of unity,
that?s so immorally drained into the sewer of mans sovereignty.All that resolve to serve the unity of the human race, stands dejected, fruitless dedication steals all power.
My flaw is profoundly held.
I must surmount this intractable barrier of sentence.
I must consider the insignificant fraction of good,
without considering the balance of the overwhelming bad.Respect the reflection of virtue,
each holds inside,
against the selfish greed and lust,
of confused ignorance outwardly displayed.I consider this the hardest requisite of Islam.
Only the innocent sustain my purpose,
while the guilty punish my wards without constraint,
it builds a negative aspect,
a dwindling paradigm of reflected truth.The innocent always a gift of gentle power,
so abused without recourse,
I question why?So that we may recieve guiding principles for the future generations. peace i think.
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Peace Abdun Nur,
Why has an innocent ant get drawned by the rain?
Why has an innocent rabbit get killed by an eagle?
Why has an innocent tomato get eaten by a human?
Are you also concerned by this kind of suffering?
Sorry to reply with questions.Peace,
Respectfully.I am sorry for answering with questions
How do you know that ant was innocent?
Rabbit? They were created as food, just like eagles - it's the survivial of the fittest. Maybe the rabbit ate baby eagles earlier in this show, right?
Tomatoes - same. They were created for us to eat them. Tomato ha sno consciousness and doesn't mind, care or know what's happening to it. It doesn't even have a gender or comment. I like them.
I eat ducks after and sometimes before i feed them in the park. What do you make of that? rotflGod bless you all.
Peace. -
Peace,
Respectfully.I am sorry for answering with questions
How do you know that ant was innocent?
Rabbit? They were created as food, just like eagles - it's the survivial of the fittest. Maybe the rabbit ate baby eagles earlier in this show, right?
Tomatoes - same. They were created for us to eat them. Tomato ha sno consciousness and doesn't mind, care or know what's happening to it. It doesn't even have a gender or comment. I like them.
I eat ducks after and sometimes before i feed them in the park. What do you make of that? rotflGod bless you all.
Peace.Well Alen, I didn't realise you were a tomato muderer! police laugh
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Salaam,
for any that are interested in reading the results of my 40 day fast, using the method described within the Qur'an, directing us to ask a question and fast for upto 40 days, and the answer will arrive.
Why the innocent suffer without redress?
You can read it here
http//servantofthelight.com/content/view/116/148/