Hot/"ramadan" Answer

belH

i don't deny this, and i never did !!

In our efforts to eliminate stupidity, I will explain to you what I wrote

The Arabic dictionary that you quote suggests that Shahar means the period between the first appearance of the Moon, not the full moon, to second appearance--Waxing Crescent to the next waxing Crescent.

Peace all,

Thank you very much for using Arabic evidence, and not Amharic (Ethiopian) as Ayman did, in order to argue about the true arabic meaning of Shahar.

Non of the above shows that the Word Shahar= Full moon...But in one of the meaning (one of the tens suggested uses) says the following (the part that you highlighted in red)

Translate as follow (Word by Word)

And the Month the Moon, it was named like this due to its bright appearance; and they said, WHEN IT SHOWS (the Moon) and ALMOST CLOSE TO BEING FULL.

Does that gave you a hint that he is not talking about THE FULL MOON, rather, something is gradually becoming FULL MOON...What that thing could be? !

By the way, most, if not all of the above Arabic dictionary, which you quoted, suggest that the Word Shahar = the Length of the MOON CYCLE (29 to 30 days)...Can you deny this?

Do you still agree? Because what you wrote either you made unintentional mistake or we are letting Stupidity takes over again...then I will act the same when arguing.

quickduck

The Arabic dictionary that you quote suggests that Shahar means the period between the first appearance of the Moon, not the full moon, to second appearance--Waxing Crescent to the next waxing Crescent.

1- Note that this "suggestion" is only from hadith interpretation , and yours as well...All other meanings of shahr are related to something obvious...

2- for this point, i still agree with you , BOTH MEANINGS ARE CORRECT
shahr = night of full moon (original marker) = month (period between 2 full moons in day to day language).

just like
friday = 6th day of the week (original marker) = week (period between 2 fridays) in day to day language) .

and also,

spring = season from march 21 to june 20 (original markers) = Year (period between 2 springs in day to day language )

I really want to discuss, so let's put stupidity behind us ok ?

Salam

belH

1- Note that this "suggestion" is only from hadith interpretation , and yours as well...All other meanings of shahr are related to something obvious...

2- for this point, i still agree with you , BOTH MEANINGS ARE CORRECT
shahr = night of full moon (original marker) = month (period between 2 full moons in day to day language).

Peace,

I will give this one more chance...you still ignoring that the translation and the meaning of your own evidence

Translate as follow (Word by Word)

And the Month the Moon, it was named like this due to its bright appearance; and they said, WHEN IT SHOWS (the Moon) and ALMOST CLOSE TO BEING FULL.

The above does not suggest Full Moon, rather, Waxing Crescent.

Now, I will move to another issue. If what you and Ayman are proposing, we should ignore the moon #13 when calculating a Year, then, can you calculate for us the following, after reading this

4615 And We enjoined man to do good to his parents. His mother bore him with hardship, gave birth to him in hardship, and his bearing and weaning lasts thirty months. So that, when he has reached his independence, and he has reached forty years, he says My Lord, direct me to appreciate the blessings You have bestowed upon me and upon my parents, and to do good work that pleases You. And let my progeny be righteous. I have repented to You; I am of those who have submitted.
4615

1-How many years are in the 30 month period that is mentioned in the above verse?

2-How many Months (full moon to full moon period, or Waxing Crescent to Waxing Crescent) are in the 40 years period mentioned in the above verse?

Please let us give it one more chance to end this in an intelligent way.

Any one wants to answer, please do so.

peace

ayman

Peace Belal,

1-How many years are in the 30 month period that is mentioned in the above verse?

This has already been answered. try to read before going in circles

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg215872#msg215872

2-How many Months (full moon to full moon period, or Waxing Crescent to Waxing Crescent) are in the 40 years period mentioned in the above verse?
Please let us give it one more chance to end this in an intelligent way.

This is a stupid question. How old are you? Do you know anyone who counts his or her age in lunar months?

Peace,

Ayman

siki

Then why did you reply me with 60 days? why not 58 or 59 days?

(when i asked you the question, "if God asks you to do something for two months , how many days in total you would do it for" ?)

siki

Belh

I am still waiting for your response on the above question that i asked sometime back.

siki

Ashraf

Welcome back! It's been almost a year...

Thanks and Peace to u..in fact i am always hooking up to FM although I'm not posting..FM is truly opensource !

I wouldn't consider 2 as part of ma3duudat, since it's mentioned as an exception for special circumsatnces of what would be accepted outside the ma3duudaat.
Minimum of ma3duudat 3
Maximum 10

That is what I am thinking before (2 days is exception), but after looking at the verse 2203 again & again, my perspective have been changed.
where 2 days was describe as acceptable period for remembrance and no explicit maximum no of days specified.
The 3 days siyaam fil hajj (or 10 days for a man/women who have their family coming together?) is a compensation imposed (fidyah min siyamin aw sodaqatin aw nusuqin 2196) for inability to send offering > due to inability to perform hajj within even a minimum of 2 days as specified in 2203. See that Quran is very specific when it comes to precision matters where 3 was clearly mentioned.
In short, you have to compensate with 3 days siyaam if you cannot make even 2 days remembrance
If you managed to make 2 days remembrances, do we still need to compensate with 3 siyaam ? !
Why 2 days be regarded as "exception"? Further, there is no "Illa" mentioned anywhere in this verse.
Thus ayyaman ma3dudat definition as per quran shall incorporate minimum 2 days..(anybody agree or mind boggling with this argument?) ;D

Peace, Ashraf

Ashraf

Salaam,

In my opinion, there is a clue on how we can determined scientifically the exact time when the very "1st" night of "scorching full moon" (or near full moon) happen, thus we can verify the year when quran was descended.

Quran was descended during Lailatul Qadr where during this special event night, the intensity of brightness, surface heat or temperature of the moon shall equivalent to 1000 ordinary full moon (other than this very unique night).

Probably there was someone outside there who is brilliant to work our the celestial object study of this very special moon.

Peace, Ashraf

ayman

Peace Ashraf,

In my opinion, there is a clue on how we can determined scientifically the exact time when the very "1st" night of "scorching full moon" (or near full moon) happen, thus we can verify the year when quran was descended.
Quran was descended during Lailatul Qadr where during this special event night, the intensity of brightness, surface heat or temperature of the moon shall equivalent to 1000 ordinary full moon (other than this very unique night).
Probably there was someone outside there who is brilliant to work our the celestial object study of this very special moon.

The god says that the great reading is light. I think that the night of measure and the 1000 full-moons can be understood accordingly.

Peace,

Ayman

Ashraf

The god says that the great reading is light. I think that the night of measure and the 1000 full-moons can be understood accordingly.

Hi Ayman,

I already saw your argument before ). Probably they are more physical evidence to it, literal and real.

Peace, Ashraf

guest

Peace,

so according to your understanding In the night time people actually do not experience "absence of light" but they experience darkness because there is no light of the sun in the night times? or may be the light is there its just us who are unable to see the light because of utter darkness?

Here is my solution for the darkness and light issue

In verse 61 the God talks about the Darkness first and then Light
In other verses the God talks about rolling night over day and then day over night
In other verses the God talks about merging night and day
In other verses the God talks about night overtakes day

Conclusions from the above 4 points

Darkness and light are two different entity i.e. darkness is not a consequence of light (lack) as this would violate 61.
Darkness existed before light
Darkness is the starting point. For example, our day starts after sunset
We start from darkness and then the God out of His mercy provide us with light to reveal SOME of the secret of darkness. As we know day cannot reveal what is inside our body, or what is in the depth of ocean, or the outer space, or inside the tree, etc. Therefore, day cannot get rid of darkness completely. Light has limited capability. Darkness is more capable than light (maybe more power?)

If you try to define darkness as ?absence of light? it will cause numerous problems which I don?t care to discuss here.

Remember even during day when we have direct sunlight, light cannot remove all the darkness.

Hope this answers your questions.

ayman

Peace Guest,

Here is my solution for the darkness and light issue

The only issue is your lack of understanding. Everyone, even little kids, understand that day and night are related to the sun and have nothing to do with the moon. Also most people with any kind of education know that the only way to use day and night to measure the year is if the year is taken as the interval between solstices (longest/shortest day/night). Despite all your useless ranting, you use terms like "sunset" (regardless of how it sets). If you lock yourself in a dark room, it doesn't mean that it is night. You don't seem to be able to understand even simple things like the fact that darkness and light are different concepts than night and day. Instead of sincerely trying to find the truth based on the great reading, your objective is to work backwards to justify your traditional timing. So you are completely lost and are in no position to find a solution for anything. If you want to find a solution for something then first find a solution for cleaning up your mind from all the traditional junk and cleaning up your heart from the idol/hero worship fetishes that you have for stone cubes and the so-called Sahaba. Maybe afterwards you will have a small chance of understanding.

Peace,

Ayman

guest

Peace Ayman,

Instead of sincerely trying to find the truth based on the great reading, your objective is to work backwards to justify your traditional timing.

Are you impersonating Ayman. Because the Ayman I am used to (this forum) does not care about the Quran. He wants to get famous by twisting God?s words in the Quran. Will real Ayman please stand up? Real Ayman will not succeed in putting out God?s message. This is guaranteed.

Samia

Salaam guest

Please keep to the topic and do not turn it into personal attacks. Be respectful to others.
Thanks for your cooperation.

belH

Peace Belal,

This has already been answered. try to read before going in circles

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg215872#msg215872

This is a stupid question. How old are you? Do you know anyone who counts his or her age in lunar months?

Peace,

Ayman

Peace all,

Ayman knows that in order for him or one of his follower to answer my two simple question, they will have to refute their own theory.

I will Ask them again...maybe one of you will have the guts to do...here are my TWO CORRELATED questions again; please note that you will need to answer the two questions and NOT ONE, as Ayman is Proposing above rotfl (He is very sneaky Boy... ;D)

Challenge Starts here

If what you and Ayman are proposing, we should ignore the moon #13 when calculating a Year, then, can you calculate for us the following, after reading this

4615 And We enjoined man to do good to his parents. His mother bore him with hardship, gave birth to him in hardship, and his bearing and weaning lasts thirty months. So that, when he has reached his independence, and he has reached forty years, he says My Lord, direct me to appreciate the blessings You have bestowed upon me and upon my parents, and to do good work that pleases You. And let my progeny be righteous. I have repented to You; I am of those who have submitted.
4615

1-How many years are in the 30 month period that is mentioned in the above verse?

2-How many Months (full moon to full moon period, or Waxing Crescent to Waxing Crescent) are in the 40 years period mentioned in the above verse?

Please let us give it one more chance to end this in an intelligent way.

Any one wants to answer, please do so.

peace

o you know anyone who counts his or her age in lunar months

By the way Ayman, How many Months Did God Count in the mentioned 40 years?

Did God Count 40 X 12 = 480 Lunar Cycle?

Or, according to your theory, Did God discounted the Full Moon #13 every three year?

belH

Belh

I am still waiting for your response on the above question that i asked sometime back.

siki

Peace,
I will do for two Moon Cycles--each Cycle could equal 29 or 30 days.

noble

Peace belH
In your eagerness to debunk, you are splitting hair at the nano level!
It is not natural to count years using a lunar calendar, years is for a pure solar calendar.
So the years (sineen or aam that the Quran refer to are Solar years, not even luni-solar).
Now as a convenience, to mark twelve months, because Allah demands that a year be subdivided
in 12 months, we use the phases of the moon to help us, and lo and behold, most of the time, there are
12 full-moons every year, so wouldn't this be an obvious marker, with a word that also means moon and
famous at the same time shahar?
What you are asking for is spurious and idiotic, it is like asking how old will someone be who is born on a 29 February
after 60 years.
Let me give you what Imam Shafie did to someone a bit more extreme than you, but similar (he might have made sense in his day and age after all)
There was someone in a market who found a grain of rice on the floor, and was shouting as to whom it belonged, making a nuisance of himself and disturbing the peace.
Imam Shafie happened to be in the area, and asked for him to be arrested, asked him what was the fuss about, the guy said he did not want to be punished for not returning a lost property to its owner, Imam Shafie asked him to repent, as he refused, he was flogged 20 lashes...
You get the drift?

unknownuser

Peace Ayman,

What straw-man? You were defending the sectarian arbitrary calendar where ?ramadhan? can occur at any haphazard time, even in the cold of winter. Either you believe that the god uses the word ?scorching/hot? haphazardly and ?ramadhan? can be during the cold of winter or you agree with me that the timing for ?ramadhan/scorching/hot must be during the hot time of the year. There is no other choice and this is irrespective of whether ?shahr? means full-moon, crescent, or month.

I disagree with your translation and understanding including the meaning of shahr ramadhan.

Using your logic, I could also say that you are issuing a ?fatwa? FORCING the blind and those in cloudy weather to fast.

You're make it same as the blind, lame, or sick who don't have to fight. (4817)

801-2 Frowned and turned away because there came to him the blind man

2183 O you who believe! Observing As-Saum (the fasting) is prescribed for you as it was prescribed for those before you, that you may become Al-Muttaqun (the pious).

3335 ...the men and the women who observe Saum (fast)...

Nothing about blind and cloudy weather; actually they do it for their own soul/benefit.

2246...it is not the eyes that grow blind, but it is the hearts which are in the breasts that grow blind.

I suggest that you reread 2185 and see that it clearly says ?man shahid minkum? (whoever witnesses from amongst you). What is the purpose of saying whoever witnesses from amongst you, unless some amongst you will not witness? Who are the people AMONGST YOU (the believers) who will not witness according to you?

Reread 284 and see they are those who DO NOT "intent" to fast AMONGST YOU; e.g. the sick, old, or opt to feed the poor.

2184 And that you fast is better for you if only you know. (blind and those living in monsoons included)

You are misreading the data. The info gives the times when hunting is ALLOWED not when hunting is restricted. Now read again and see how the protection mostly overlaps except a few times for the animals whose hunting season starts in mid September and the difference is only for a couple of weeks on average.

I agree completely. So by the same token, the restriction is about protecting wild life all over the world from humans who hunt them for food during the period of the FOUR inviolable ?shahr? and not just around Mecca

Global restriction after the solstice allows killing in the other 8 months. Invite thousands of people to a vicinity and tell them hunt except for late summer/fall then see what happens to the wildlife as with the Buffalo and Arabian Onyx which breed year round.

Arabian Onyx hunted to extinction

http//www.arabian-oryx.gov.sa/images/archive2.jpg

Why buffalo disappeared

http//rvtravel.com/blog/chuck/uploaded_images/Bison_skull_pile,_ca1870-772015.png

Belh

I am still waiting for your response on the above question that i asked sometime back.

siki

Your question was answered sometime back; count #of dawns to sunsets (i.e. Quranic days) between moon cycles.

We're still waiting for you to answer how many days are they free to travel from "the day" of proclamation?

92 so travel in the earth four ashhurin (full moons according to you)?
93 And proclamation from God and His messenger to the people (on) day the hajj the greatest?

ayman

Peace Eid,

I disagree with your translation and understanding including the meaning of shahr ramadhan.

When it comes to "ramadhan", it is not my translation or understanding. All Classical Arabic dictionaries clearly say that it means "hot/scorching". If you disagree with the meaning of "ramadhan" and think that it can mean "cold" then you are imagining a false meaning. If you don't know the meaning then you are in no position to agree or disagree with anything. Just so that you don't say that I am building a strawman, please tell us what you think "ramadhan" means or admit that you don't know the meaning.

You're make it same as the blind, lame, or sick who don't have to fight. (4817)
801-2 Frowned and turned away because there came to him the blind man
2183 O you who believe! Observing As-Saum (the fasting) is prescribed for you as it was prescribed for those before you, that you may become Al-Muttaqun (the pious).
3335 ...the men and the women who observe Saum (fast)...
Nothing about blind and cloudy weather; actually they do it for their own soul/benefit.
2246...it is not the eyes that grow blind, but it is the hearts which are in the breasts that grow blind.
Reread 284 and see they are those who DO NOT "intent" to fast AMONGST YOU; e.g. the sick, old, or opt to feed the poor.
2184 And that you fast is better for you if only you know. (blind and those living in monsoons included)

So what is the purpose of saying "whoever witnessed the shahr amongst you"?

Global restriction after the solstice allows killing in the other 8 months. Invite thousands of people to a vicinity and tell them hunt except for late summer/fall then see what happens to the wildlife as with the Buffalo and Arabian Onyx which breed year round.
Arabian Onyx hunted to extinction
Why buffalo disappeared

How does restricting hunting only on the 8th to 13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah and only on people walking half-naked while wearing nothing but towels and only in the vicinity of Mecca would save the Arabian Onyx or the buffalo according to your timing?

Your question was answered sometime back; count #of dawns to sunsets (i.e. Quranic days) between moon cycles.
We're still waiting for you to answer how many days are they free to travel from "the day" of proclamation?
92 so travel in the earth four ashhurin (full moons according to you)?
93 And proclamation from God and His messenger to the people (on) day the hajj the greatest?

Before I answer, who said it is from the day of proclamation in 93? The travel the land for four full-moons is already decreed before the proclamation in 93. The bigger "hajj" happened between the decree in 92 and the ending of the inviolable full-moons. So it must have happened on one of the inviolable full-moons.

Peace,

Ayman

siki

Peace,
I will do for two Moon Cycles--each Cycle could equal 29 or 30 days.

That's like a good boy;

So now you understand that there can not be a thing like "a Month" in God's system, because it would have created a dilemma for an individual. Moon cycle/cycles is the correct answer.

Ok one more Question, If you have to do something for one/two/three moon cycles, would you like to do it any day/tomorrow (picking up and remembering the shape of moon at night, till when the same returns) or, for your own ease you would like to delay your start from a certain prominent shape of moon?

(Before answering above, you must keep in mind the situation of people a few thousand years back)

siki

belH

Peace belH
In your eagerness to debunk, you are splitting hair at the nano level!

o you and Ayman, and all of his followers sound like the Iman of the Suni Masjed that I used to go to...He used to get angry when I ask him a question that he does not have an answer for; moreover, he used to say that we should not think and use our brain to understand the Quran; however, I used to remind him that God wants us to use our brain and think logically, otherwise, he would make us live like animals or worse.
Please, I'm asking you to tech me without making fun of my ignorance.

Can you take a deep breath and answer to the following

If what you and Ayman are proposing, we should ignore the moon #13 when calculating a Year, then, can you calculate for us the following, after reading this

4615 And We enjoined man to do good to his parents. His mother bore him with hardship, gave birth to him in hardship, and his bearing and weaning lasts thirty months. So that, when he has reached his independence, and he has reached forty years, he says My Lord, direct me to appreciate the blessings You have bestowed upon me and upon my parents, and to do good work that pleases You. And let my progeny be righteous. I have repented to You; I am of those who have submitted.
4615

1-How many years are in the 30 month period that is mentioned in the above verse? (please simply write the number)

2-How many Months (full moon to full moon period, or Waxing Crescent to Waxing Crescent) are in the 40 years period mentioned in the above verse? (Please simply write the number)

Any one wants to answer, please do so.

peace