FREE OF MINDS of free-minds.org and reverse of Occam's Razor
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Free of Minds of Free-minds organization and
The reverse of Occam's Razor? Edip Yuksel
For centuries Muslims were deprived to use their own minds to read and understand the Quran. Muslim scholars fabricated and compiled volumes of narratives, sectarian jurisprudence and complicated procedural rules and introduced them to Muslim masses as requirement to learn their religion. Generations gave lip service to the Quran, hanged it to the best corner of their rooms, carried verses from it as amulets, read it for their dead, touched it and kissed it with reverence; nevertheless they rarely referred to it for religious guidance. Many did not read it; most of those who read it, did not understand it; and most who understood it did not really believe in it and thus did not follow it.
Muslims were told, contrary what the Quran, that the Quran was difficult to understand, ambiguous, incomplete, and in need of Hadith and fatwas of scholars. Following their scholars blindly, muslim masses turned their religion to a limited partnership or corporation; a corporation where the main shareholders were God plus Muhammad plus Muhammad's companions plus Muhammad's companion's companions plus early imams of a particular sect plus later jurists plus early great alims plus later great alims plus other great alims plus other petty alims and petty gurus of Sufi orders.
This religion condemned the Muslim masses to live in a warped universe of medieval ages. A mosaic of sanctified medieval Arab culture, borrowings from Jewish and Christian mythologies, superstitions and the mindset of the Era of Ignorance doomed them to oppressive, inefficient, misogynist, irrational, and backward life.
However, recently Muslims are looking a way out and they are turning to their long-deserted holy book, the Quran. All around the world, a powerful and promising progressive movement promoting Islamic reform under the light of the Quran is flourishing. Nevertheless, there are examples of deviation and fatal mutation within some branches of this movement. Freed from the leash of traditional dogmatism, some young people celebrate this newly found freedom with excess. Intoxicated with the egalitarian principles of this movement and equipped with Molotov cocktail of arrogance and ignorance, they are recklessly hurling speculations, absurd claims, and pure nonsense about the Quran. They attempt to hijack this powerful message.
One example of this intoxicated Quran Aloners can be found at the Turkish-English website www.yeniyorumlar.org. I have written some amusing articles about the claims of the leader of this group and they are available in Turkish at 19.org.
Other examples of these intoxicated Quran Aloners can be found at free-minds.org.
In an article titled Conspiracies against Conspiracies Words in the Wonderland, I criticized a portion of a book written by a free of mind Quran Aloner. The following depiction is a fair and general depiction of these people
In Aidid?s Wonderland, place of worships (masaajid) vanishes to submissions (yes, plural!); timely prayers transform to timely commitments; the Sacred House Ka?ba mutates into ?the ?ankles? the sanctioned in the system? (the ankles are literally the ankles of deer and goats!); verbs and adverbs are ignored whenever they do not conspire with Aidid against Arab Conspiracies; nouns and verbs act like transsexuals in a ?fundamental? way where the meanings are freshly assigned by Aidid to justify his bizarre theories.
This is another abuse and exploitation of the Quran Alone message. Aidid is not the first nor will be the last brave warrior who will use the powerful message of the Quran Alone against tradition to justify esoteric and absurd claims. In an overpopulated world any conspiracy theory and any absurd idea will find some followers. We should let the Arab conspirators and non-Arab counter-conspirators deal with each other. As long as there are wind mills there will be Don Quixotes and their admirers. Peace for all of them! Thank God, I do not own any wind mills;-)
SOME members of free-minds.org are really free. They are free,
Free from knowledge.
Free from grammatical rules of the language they are speculating on.
Free from semantics.
Free from rules of logic.
Free from common sense.
Free from the truth.
Free from ability to discuss any issue based on facts.
Free from fear of God.
Free from minds.The Bible says, "Accept the truth so that the truth will set you free." These free of minds live in a fictional world where one of the rules is "Religion is your wishful thinking and your wishful thinking is your religion. Everyday you should make up your religion as you wish. Brothers and sisters, let's fabricate and applaud the weirdest of all claims." Sadly, in this game the ONLY material they are using is the text of the QURAN. In their cultic slang, QURAN ALONE means the only thing they will focus on twisting beyond recognition is the Quran alone. They turn the words of the Quran to clay; they twist, squeeze, stretch and contextually disorient them and they come up with anything they wish. They are more talented than the clowns who make sculptures out of balloons. A bad analogy clowns do it for fun; but these free people are very serious about what they are saying.
In philosophy of science, there is beautiful but a handle-with-care principle called Occam's Razor. If you have more than one explanation for the same event, the accurate one is most likely the simplest one. For instance, if you cannot find your socks they are most likely lost somewhere in your room, rather than being socknapped by UFO's. Interestingly, the free-minders have chosen the reverse of the Occam's Razor they subscribe to the philosophy of "If you have more than one explanation for the same event, word, or statement, the accurate one is most likely the most absurd one!" Here is just one of many examples
Exactly! Isn't a "MU"slim one who submits? Isn't a "MU"salleen one who maintains salaat? Why isn't "MU"hammed one who praises/appreciates? We have to start being people who PROVE things. There is no proof of a man named Muhammad, but we can take this CHARACTER TYPE along with all the other CHARACTER TYPES and live by those moral lessons.
Muhammad is the descriptive adjective of an "ON-GOING" messenger of GOD that can ONLY be witnessed by the GENUINE GUIDED BELIEVERS of the BOOK...Muhammad is to be obeyed AFTER being "WITNESSED".
I should, however, give credit when credit is due. Even a frozen non military clock will show time correctly twice a day, similarly, among all the fabrication and absurd claims, they do occasionally come up with sensible thesis. One needs a powerful light and plenty of patience to extract them, since they are lost in the minus 273 Celsius degrees of darkness and on the zenith of their Everestic arrogance.
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Peace everybody,
...Think about it Edip....How many people do you know that was once a sunni and now believes in GOD Alone and Quran Alone and have WENT BACK to sunnism?? Do you know any?? I sure don't.
Now how many people do you know who once believed in code 19 and all the claims that come with it have stopped believing in it and then WENT BACK to believing it again? I know none.
As far as people not going back to sunnism, I believe that speaks about two fundamental things involved.
1). The truth and logic which underly the GOD Alone/Quran Alone movement and...
2). The common sense that the people who now follow this movement exemplify.
...This coming from someone who not only still believes in the ritualistic salaat of the sunnis but still follows a religion instead of a system (deen). You still insist on translating deen as religion.
Edip, I re-iterate, I think you can do alot for this movement and I definately welcome your presence here. But there are some things you need to realize. Contrary to what you believe or think, you do not know everything. You only play a small, yet significant, part of this movement just like the rest of us.You are not at the forefront and you are not cutting edge. If you want to make a positive contribution here, that's fine. Just know that we are not followers, you are not any leader here (you'll have to go back to 19.org for that), and we WILL use our own minds and do our own thinking and not let others do our thinking for us...that goes for you and whoever else thinks that they're a know it all.
I hope you continue to post here and grow with us Edip but you'll do well if you check your ego at the door.
Peace,
Damon.wow, Damon, excellent rebuttal bravo
I especially liked your first post about reverting to sunnism vs reverting to code 19.
peace
handshake -
wow, Damon, excellent rebuttal bravo
I especially liked your first post about reverting to sunnism vs reverting to code 19.
peace
handshakeInteresting.. I would agree with Damon's words telling me that I am no leader and everyone must use their own mind regarding their eternal salvation. And he has the right to "humbly" call me egoistic... I know that some people, especially those who disagree with me the most, may interpret my bold statements and daring arguments in that way. Though, Damon falsely depicts the nature of the forums at www.19.org, which are as free as it can be (like this one) and filled with all sorts of messages, including insults to my person and ideas, I agree with his basic premise that none should follow another blindly.
However, contrary to you, I disagree with his "reverting back argument," since it relies on behavior of people as evidence for truthfulness of an idea. Using exactly the same argument, many good ideas could be rejected, since SOME PEOPLE will always oscillate between this or that position. I have seen SOME PEOPLE reverting to atheism from Quran alone message and vice versa. Can I use any of those oscillations to defend atheism or the Quran alone movement? Obviously, not. Furthermore, I had a few examples of those who reverted back to Sunnism after accepting the message of the Quran alone.
In short, you "especially liked" the most problematic part of his argument.
PS I apologize to Layth for criticizing this forum and confusing the host with the visitors. Ironically, I have been criticized similarly by new members of 19.org forums. So, I like this forum and I am glad everyone can freely express their opinions.
Peace,
Edip -
...
However, contrary to you, I disagree with his "reverting back argument," since it relies on behavior of people as evidence for truthfulness of an idea. Using exactly the same argument, many good ideas could be rejected, since SOME PEOPLE will always oscillate between this or that position. I have seen SOME PEOPLE reverting to atheism from Quran alone message and vice versa. Can I use any of those oscillations to defend atheism or the Quran alone movement? Obviously, not. Furthermore, I had a few examples of those who reverted back to Sunnism after accepting the message of the Quran alone.In short, you "especially liked" the most problematic part of his argument.
...I am not attacking you or your beliefs concerning code 19.
I am not saying it is proof, nor am I saying it is an logical argument. It isn't even an argument. It's a good observation, though. I remember, when I had just discovered the submitters site, being amazed by it, but reading most of Rashad Khalifa's arguments, like the age of 40 debate, him being a messenger of the covenant, that judgement day will be in the 2200s, with some scepticism. I remember thinking that even if he was wrong, he would not mistranslate the verses.
But he did, as I discovered after reading some of the articles posted here and in other places.
As someone who doesn't know Arabic, nor has taken the time to figure out words using their roots, I am aware that I can't have a meaningful discussion about what certain phrases and words in the Quran mean, but I can ask questions.
And one question I have to ask is this, and it isn't a question of semantics. It is as follows.
The Quran is over 1400 years old, and it didn't even have diacritical marks to begin with. To suggest that it has been preserved to the very last letter, and that version is the Hafs, is ludicrous. The primary message may have been well preserved, but not completely.
Secondly, the fact that there are real variations of the Quran in terms of wording today suggests that a numerical system would be based on the mistaken assumption that the Hafs version has been perfectly preserved, which it hasn't. It's more reasonable to say that both have been slightly altered, but in different ways, such that neither is the same as the original, although both are close.
"3. HAFS VS. WARSH
One of the least known facts regarding the Scripture is the existence of
slight variations between existing printed versions (up to ten copies exist
with minor variations, with the two most prominent being known under
the names of ?Hafs? and ?Warsh?)3.
While there is no variation with regards to the bulk text of the
Scripture (i.e. nearly the same number of words, and sequence of words,
in all versions), there is a slight difference in some of the spelling of
2. All scans of Gold Qur?an are made available by John Hopkins University
(http//goldkoran.mse.jhu.edu/).
3. Al-Qiraat Al-Ashr Al-Mutawatira, by Allawi Mohammed Balfaqeeh (Published by Dar
Al-Mahajir)
V
certain words as well as the issue of the location of verse ?stops? which
significantly differ from one version to the other.
Although the ?Warsh? style of separating the verses is found to be more
in-line with the older surviving texts, the approach of this translation
has been to remain with the common ?Hafs? numbering of verses as
being the most prevalent among Muslims (Warsh being limited mainly
to parts of North Africa)."taken from page 14 of the following pdf
http//www.progressivemuslims.org/quran.pdf
Peace, and God bless.
Sarah
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Salam Sarah,
I am not saying it is proof, nor am I saying it is an logical argument. It isn't even an argument. It's a good observation, though. I remember, when I had just discovered the submitters site, being amazed by it, but reading most of Rashad Khalifa's arguments, like the age of 40 debate, him being a messenger of the covenant, that judgement day will be in the 2200s, with some scepticism. I remember thinking that even if he was wrong, he would not mistranslate the verses.
I agree with Edip. Over the years I have observed quite a few people going from Islam to atheism. That people change their stance is not the result of a weakness in the particular path they were following, but a change that occured within themselves.
God confirms this fact by telling us that a person can believe in God Alone and still change their minds later and become an atheist/rejecter
4137 Those who believed, then rejected, then believed, then rejected, then they increased in rejection; God was not to forgive them nor
to guide them to the path.More importantly, we all need to be aware that this path of monotheism is filled with pot-holes and detours that are designed to test those who try and walk it and seperate those who have conviction from those whose hearts have not fully surrendered
292 Did the people think that they will be left to say ?We believe? without being put to the test?
293 We had tested those before them, so that God would distinguish those who are truthful and so that He would know the liars.2214 Or did you expect that you would enter the Paradise, while the example of those who were before you came to you; they were
stricken with adversity and hardship, and they were shaken until the messenger and those who believed with him said ?When is the victory of God?? Yes indeed, the victory of God is near. -
Salam Sarah,
I agree with Edip. Over the years I have observed quite a few people going from Islam to atheism. That people change their stance is not the result of a weakness in the particular path they were following, but a change that occured within themselves.
God confirms this fact by telling us that a person can believe in God Alone and still change their minds later and become an atheist/rejecter
4137 Those who believed, then rejected, then believed, then rejected, then they increased in rejection; God was not to forgive them nor
to guide them to the path.More importantly, we all need to be aware that this path of monotheism is filled with pot-holes and detours that are designed to test those who try and walk it and seperate those who have conviction from those whose hearts have not fully surrendered
292 Did the people think that they will be left to say ?We believe? without being put to the test?
293 We had tested those before them, so that God would distinguish those who are truthful and so that He would know the liars.2214 Or did you expect that you would enter the Paradise, while the example of those who were before you came to you; they were
stricken with adversity and hardship, and they were shaken until the messenger and those who believed with him said ?When is the victory of God?? Yes indeed, the victory of God is near.Peace Layth,
I couldn't agree with you more. It is an ongoing journey, and different people go different ways even after getting to the same point. As someone who used to believe that code 19 was confirming the Quran's authenticity but no longer does, I do see the point you make about being tested. It's something we often forget.
btw, that was a great post (and thanks for specifiying the verses) bravo
peace
Sarah -
Dear Sara
First, one is a feminine word the other is masculine. But, as you IMPLIED they are derived from the same rood KA'Ba.
I will not venture to provide you lexical information about this word and its MEANINGS. But, please do yourself a favor and check some ENGLISH words, or words in any language that you do know well. Check the words that are used for MORE THAN ONE thing.
Please come up with a list of five words, preferrably in English. Then, we can have a healthy discussion.
Human language is not MATH or FUNCTION. The relationship between semantics and lexicon is NOT one to one correspondance. Sometimes, a word is used to mean for several different concepts and sometimes a concept can be explained in several different words.
In your literal and one-to-one world as it seems very few people can KICK the BUCKET and none can kill anyone in COLD blood. Before trying to understand the Quran you and some other people need to learn the rudimentary principles of human language, in which the Quran is communicating with us.
I know that some will be angry with this and call me arrogant. But, if one worries about temper-tantrums, no child will reach their potentials-)
Peace,
EdipI understand what ur trying to get at however I also think that it has to do with history. We have no independent reliable historic information about early Islam so we tend to speculate depending on the level of suspicion. However none of the points you raised will threaten this movement as most people would not dwell too deep in Quranic meanings as most of us here do since we are religious junkies. But the issue of shirk and paganism is a serious problem as it opens the door for takfir, the most deadly virus for any religious movement and some here have these views. Things like what is salat or what is Qibla or what is Ramadan are not as serious as they seem since it depend on how you chose to interpret the Quran. Some do so linguistically which I tend to avoid exactly for the reasons you mentioned. I tend to lean towards context, very much as you tend to do and then see what the Quran says about a subject matter and in the last resort I would look into similar subject matter regarding a subject in the Quran or take a look at the previous scriptures for more information. I also see the Quran using languages variably and each should be looked at individually based on context. At the end Ka'ba and haj and ramadan are rituals, they are a means to an end and not an end by itself.
Linguistic interpretation of the Quran can be problematic if context is not looked at however this does not mean this is dangerous to the movement but rather it enhances it since there is a huge market for this interpretation among the people and it makes diversity of ideas more possible. However, with shirk accusations the door of communication is closed and you yourself have seen how code 19 has been accused of shirk!
Other than that I do not see the problem. The background you come from and your personality type and personal experiences all play a role on how a person approaches the Quran. However we must avoid takfirism at any cost because that more than anything distances God from us in my mind and divides us and can even lead to violence.
As far as the prophet Muhammad not existing, well there are many prophets we do not know about and as long as those who believe so ACCEPT those who believe Muhammad did exist then its all good. Most people however would not lean towards such theories as they see it as overwhelming.
This goes back to another major issue that should have been discussed before this topic and that is
What is a Quranist and what is it they want from their message and what is their long term goals?
