Hot/"ramadan" Answer
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Peace Ayman,
When it comes to "ramadhan", it is not my translation or understanding. All Classical Arabic dictionaries clearly say that it means "hot/scorching". If you disagree with the meaning of "ramadhan" and think that it can mean "cold" then you are imagining a false meaning. If you don't know the meaning then you are in no position to agree or disagree with anything. Just so that you don't say that I am building a strawman, please tell us what you think "ramadhan" means or admit that you don't know the meaning.
Not about the weather or how hot in certain parts of the N. Hemisphere which is opposite the Southern.
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
Ra-Miim-Dal = to starve from cold, destroy, put in ashes, become dirty. ramad (pl. of armidatun) - ashes, fine and copious ashes
ramad n.m. pl. 1418similar those who disbelieve with their Lord their deeds as ashes...
Best meaning is derived from context not always dictionaries like to error imply deeds are physical ashes and not that their actions are starved like ashes blown in the wind.
Ra-Miim-Dad = to be burning, heat, be blasted by the sun. ramaDda - to sharpen (a spear) between stones, roast, pasture on a burning ground, burn. ramDda - scorching heat, burning hot (ground). ramadzan - the ninth month of Islamic calendar, the month of fast.
ramadan n. 2185
LL, V3, p 322, 323Shahr/month/time (start-end) Ramadan/the month of fast -- as in PERF 558 the month Jumada I of the year Twenty-Two.
So what is the purpose of saying "whoever witnessed the shahr amongst you"?
So they make an inward intent called shahida...
1926 so say that I made a vow to The Merciful a fast...
so who witness, give attestation, avouch, aver or declare from you the month so he should fast it.
How does restricting hunting only on the 8th to 13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah and only on people walking half-naked while wearing nothing but towels and only in the vicinity of Mecca would save the Arabian Onyx or the buffalo according to your timing?
Certainly not by permitting global hunting for 8 months. The Arabian Onyx and all animals are saved by those who are constantly mindful of the reminder...
638 And not from a walker/creeper/crawler (creature) in the earth and nor bird flies with its two wings, except nations similar/alike/equal to you, We did not neglect in The Book from a thing, then to their Lord they be gathered.
Before I answer, who said it is from the day of proclamation in 93? The travel the land for four full-moons is already decreed before the proclamation in 93. The bigger "hajj" happened between the decree in 92 and the ending of the inviolable full-moons. So it must have happened on one of the inviolable full-moons.
Who said on one of the days of the full moon which occur after sunset?
Explain one full moon (a marker) how the statement can be true?91-2 Annulment from God and His messenger to those you promised from the takers of partners, so travel in the earth four ashhurin?
If GOD wanted to make you do something for , let us say more than 30 50, or 90 days , It was difficult for the people back then to keep track of count, so he made it easier for them by counting a few full moons (two , three or 4 only)
Really, were they wired different and the minds of today smarter than the ancient philosophers, Pythagorean mathematicians, Sumerian stone movers/builders, and Mayan calendar makers?
Better tools make better tools and we have a bit more precision and understanding of physics today.
Your pictures of full moon is a circular argument again, i have told you repeatedly , that , Shahar is, the first full moon which appears after the sun has set. so watch sun set, if there is a fullish moon ignore it, next day again watch sun set, if you see a full moon above horizon , again ignore it, do this exercise till the time you do not find a moon at sun set, now look for the moon rise, it will rise soon, This is Shahar.
Then your marker varies and is sometimes 98% full as the case in November this year....
http//www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=263&month=11&year=2009&obj=moon&afl=-11&day=1
http//aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/AltAz.php
Washington DC, District of Columbia, United States
Date Sunset Moonrise
2-Nov-09 506 PM 443 PM ignored Full at 214 PM
3-Nov-09 505 PM 525 PM shahrSun 2-Nov-09 Moon
Time Altitude Azimuth Time Altitude Azimuth Fraction Illuminated
1630 5.9 245.5 1630 -3.1 62.1 1.00
1640 4.1 247.1 1640 -1.4 63.6 1.00
1650 2.4 248.7 1650 0.8 65.1 1.00
1700 0.8 250.3 1700 2.3 66.6 1.00
1710 -1.5 251.9 1710 4.0 68.0 1.00 ignored
1720 -3.4 253.4 1720 5.7 69.4 1.00
1730 -5.3 254.9 1730 7.5 70.8 1.00
1740 -7.1 256.4 1740 9.2 72.2 1.00
1750 -9.0 257.9 1750 11.0 73.6 1.00
1800 -11.0 259.5 1800 12.9 75.0 1.003-Nov-09 Sun 3-Nov-09 Moon
Time Altitude Azimuth Time Altitude Azimuth Fraction Illuminated
1630 5.7 245.2 1630 -9.4 50.7 0.98
1640 3.9 246.9 1640 -7.9 52.4 0.98
1650 2.2 248.5 1650 -6.4 54.0 0.98
1700 0.6 250.1 1700 -4.8 55.6 0.98
1710 -1.7 251.6 1710 -3.3 57.1 0.98
1720 -3.6 253.2 1720 -1.7 58.6 0.98
1730 -5.5 254.7 1730 0.4 60.1 0.98 shahr
1740 -7.3 256.2 1740 1.9 61.6 0.98
1750 -9.2 257.7 1750 3.5 63.0 0.98
1800 -11.1 259.2 1800 5.1 64.4 0.98Peace and kindest regards,
Eid
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Peace
I thought (Eid) that we talk of a different context when it is the same word...
but the word Ashes (ramadan) and Scorching Hot (ramadzan) are two distinct words, so how can you
use this as different context in the separate Ayats, the words are different, and have different meanings,
are you fooling around with God's meanings?You, like belH are playing with Allah's Signs so beware...
As for your other grievances, Ayman's several patient posts answered them at length, if you cannot, or more appropriately do not want to be convinced, fine...
but to be honest, someone reading the beginning of your post will not give much weight to your rationality, and will not take you seriously...Salam
Noble
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Peace
I thought (Eid) that we talk of a different context when it is the same word...
but the word Ashes (ramadan) and Scorching Hot (ramadzan) are two distinct words, so how can you
use this as different context in the separate Ayats, the words are different, and have different meanings,
are you fooling around with God's meanings?You, like belH are playing with Allah's Signs so beware...
As for your other grievances, Ayman's several patient posts answered them at length, if you cannot, or more appropriately do not want to be convinced, fine...
but to be honest, someone reading the beginning of your post will not give much weight to your rationality, and will not take you seriously...Salam
Noble
Peace (Noble) the name not the attribute,
The first was an example, the rest facts which you don't address instead pad and pollute the thread with cheerleader rants as a few of the others popping out of the internet bushes adding zero value diverting the topic.
Fact Not about the weather or how hot in certain parts of the N. Hemisphere which is opposite the Southern.
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
Fact Best meaning is derived from context not always dictionaries like to error imply deeds are physical ashes and not that their actions are starved like ashes blown in the wind.
Ra-Miim-Dad = to be burning, heat, be blasted by the sun. ramaDda - to sharpen (a spear) between stones, roast, pasture on a burning ground, burn. ramDda - scorching heat, burning hot (ground). ramadzan - the ninth month of Islamic calendar, the month of fast.
ramadan n. 2185
LL, V3, p 322, 323Shahr/month/time (start-end) Ramadan/the month of fast -- as in PERF 558 the month Jumada I of the year Twenty-Two.
So they make an inward intent called shahida...
1926 so say that I made a vow to The Merciful a fast...
so who witness, give attestation, avouch, aver or declare from you the month so he should fast it.
Also addressed in another thread...
quote author=thegod link=topic=9597441.msg197964#msg197964 date=1240312339
Lisaan alarab is a thirteenth century work, & lane's lexicon is an nineteenth century work. In between the two u have taj alarus, which is an eighteenth century work.quote author=thegod link=topic=9597441.msg198055#msg198055 date=1240372155
elke-a cycle / cercle per definition has no beginning and no end.A cycle is a series of events that recur (in the same order).
The "new" moon is the marker because (it follows the "moonless" night, & it is the beginning of a "new" cycle. The reason shahr has been applied to the new moon is that it announces (underived meaning of shahr) the moon after the moonless night. Because the new moon marks the beginning of a month, shahr also denotes the same.
Explain one full moon (a marker) how the statement can be true?
91-2 Annulment from God and His messenger to those you promised from the takers of partners, so travel in the earth four ashhurin?
Fact Then your marker varies and is sometimes 98% full as the case in November this year....
http//www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=263&month=11&year=2009&obj=moon&afl=-11&day=1
http//aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/AltAz.php
Washington DC, District of Columbia, United States
Date Sunset Moonrise
2-Nov-09 506 PM 443 PM ignored Full at 214 PM
3-Nov-09 505 PM 525 PM shahrSun 2-Nov-09 Moon
Time Altitude Azimuth Time Altitude Azimuth Fraction Illuminated
1630 5.9 245.5 1630 -3.1 62.1 1.00
1640 4.1 247.1 1640 -1.4 63.6 1.00
1650 2.4 248.7 1650 0.8 65.1 1.00
1700 0.8 250.3 1700 2.3 66.6 1.00
1710 -1.5 251.9 1710 4.0 68.0 1.00 ignored
1720 -3.4 253.4 1720 5.7 69.4 1.00
1730 -5.3 254.9 1730 7.5 70.8 1.00
1740 -7.1 256.4 1740 9.2 72.2 1.00
1750 -9.0 257.9 1750 11.0 73.6 1.00
1800 -11.0 259.5 1800 12.9 75.0 1.003-Nov-09 Sun 3-Nov-09 Moon
Time Altitude Azimuth Time Altitude Azimuth Fraction Illuminated
1630 5.7 245.2 1630 -9.4 50.7 0.98
1640 3.9 246.9 1640 -7.9 52.4 0.98
1650 2.2 248.5 1650 -6.4 54.0 0.98
1700 0.6 250.1 1700 -4.8 55.6 0.98
1710 -1.7 251.6 1710 -3.3 57.1 0.98
1720 -3.6 253.2 1720 -1.7 58.6 0.98
1730 -5.5 254.7 1730 0.4 60.1 0.98 shahr
1740 -7.3 256.2 1740 1.9 61.6 0.98
1750 -9.2 257.7 1750 3.5 63.0 0.98
1800 -11.1 259.2 1800 5.1 64.4 0.98If you want to continue the discussion and add value then answer if the above are TRUE or not.
Regards,
Eid
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Peace Eid,
Not about the weather or how hot in certain parts of the N. Hemisphere which is opposite the Southern.
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
Ra-Miim-Dal = to starve from cold, destroy, put in ashes, become dirty. ramad (pl. of armidatun) - ashes, fine and copious ashes
ramad n.m. pl. 1418
similar those who disbelieve with their Lord their deeds as ashes...
Best meaning is derived from context not always dictionaries like to error imply deeds are physical ashes and not that their actions are starved like ashes blown in the wind.The words and are two completely different words in Arabic with different spelling. What you are saying is like confusing ?mat? (a rug) and ?mad? (crazy) in English. Your time would be better spent in learning Arabic than in defending the nonsensical and arbitrary sectarian calendar.
Ra-Miim-Dad = to be burning, heat, be blasted by the sun. ramaDda - to sharpen (a spear) between stones, roast, pasture on a burning ground, burn. ramDda - scorching heat, burning hot (ground). ramadzan - the ninth month of Islamic calendar, the month of fast.
ramadan n. 2185
LL, V3, p 322, 323
Shahr/month/time (start-end) Ramadan/the month of fast -- as in PERF 558 the month Jumada I of the year Twenty-Two.It only became ?the month of fast? after 2185 was revealed. So you are using circular reasoning. An Arab hearing 2185 for the first time and trying to understand when this ?month? occurs wouldn?t use circular reasoning (CIRCULAR to fast during the month of fast). This is a post-Quranic meaning that doesn?t say anything about when to fast. Even using your own definition of "shahr" as "month", the pre-Quranic Arab listening for the first time to 2185 without any post-Quranic bias would understand it as a "month" of scorching heat.
So they make an inward intent called shahida...
1926 so say that I made a vow to The Merciful a fast...
so who witness, give attestation, avouch, aver or declare from you the month so he should fast it.Actually, the examples that you brought destroy your argument that ?inward intent? means ?shahida? since 1926 clearly says that such intent is called ? I made a vow ?. Also, according to you ?whoever didn?t make a vow? is not obligated to fast. So according to your logic, even fully able people in good health are exempted if they ?don?t make a vow?.
Certainly not by permitting global hunting for 8 months. The Arabian Onyx and all animals are saved by those who are constantly mindful of the reminder...
638 And not from a walker/creeper/crawler (creature) in the earth and nor bird flies with its two wings, except nations similar/alike/equal to you, We did not neglect in The Book from a thing, then to their Lord they be gathered.This doesn?t answer the question. Any hunting for sport would fall under spilling blood unnecessarily and is therefore prohibited anyway. Also, hunting endangered species would fall under corrupting the earth and therefore is also prohibited. What we are talking about is hunting for food and restricting it so that those species don?t become endangered. So the question is
How does restricting hunting only on the 8th to 13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah and only on people walking half-naked while wearing nothing but towels and only in the vicinity of Mecca would be better for wild life than a global hunting restriction for the summer season?
Who said on one of the days of the full moon which occur after sunset?
Explain one full moon (a marker) how the statement can be true?
91-2 Annulment from God and His messenger to those you promised from the takers of partners, so travel in the earth four ashhurin?The god said so. He said that the ?hajj? occurs on ?ash-hur ma'aloomat?. So the ?hajj? occurs on known full-moons. The harvest full-moons are known to everyone and the people of the book had ?hagg? on the inviolable full-moon (Hagg Sukkot). On the other hand, there is nothing that anyone knew about the Islamic calendar in pre-Islamic times, including the start of the era, the order of the months or the names of the months (all of which the location of its months are based on). Moreover, 93 makes it clear that the restriction period is consecutive but according to your arbitrary false calendar they are not consecutive but are haphazardly arranged as months 11, 12, 1 and 7.
Travel in the land for four full-moons is the same if I tell you that I will see you after four full-moons. Nothing ambiguous about it.
Really, were they wired different and the minds of today smarter than the ancient philosophers, Pythagorean mathematicians, Sumerian stone movers/builders, and Mayan calendar makers?
Better tools make better tools and we have a bit more precision and understanding of physics today.Yet despite all the tools there are still disputes every year about when your so-called Ramadhan month occurs (including this year) but there was never any dispute about when the full-moon occurs.
Then your marker varies and is sometimes 98% full as the case in November this year....
No it doesn?t. You are saying this because you are used to disputes every year about the start of Ramadhan. Please provide any link or reference showing that there was ever any dispute about when the full-moon occurs. If you can?t provide such reference then you have proved that just because you ignore when it occurs, it doesn?t mean that everyone does.
http//www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=263&month=11&year=2009&obj=moon&afl=-11&day=1
http//aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/AltAz.php
Washington DC, District of Columbia, United States
Date Sunset Moonrise
2-Nov-09 506 PM 443 PM ignored Full at 214 PM
3-Nov-09 505 PM 525 PM shahr
Sun 2-Nov-09 Moon
Time Altitude Azimuth Time Altitude Azimuth Fraction Illuminated
1630 5.9 245.5 1630 -3.1 62.1 1.00
1640 4.1 247.1 1640 -1.4 63.6 1.00
1650 2.4 248.7 1650 0.8 65.1 1.00
1700 0.8 250.3 1700 2.3 66.6 1.00
1710 -1.5 251.9 1710 4.0 68.0 1.00 ignored
1720 -3.4 253.4 1720 5.7 69.4 1.00
1730 -5.3 254.9 1730 7.5 70.8 1.00
1740 -7.1 256.4 1740 9.2 72.2 1.00
1750 -9.0 257.9 1750 11.0 73.6 1.00
1800 -11.0 259.5 1800 12.9 75.0 1.00
3-Nov-09 Sun 3-Nov-09 Moon
Time Altitude Azimuth Time Altitude Azimuth Fraction Illuminated
1630 5.7 245.2 1630 -9.4 50.7 0.98
1640 3.9 246.9 1640 -7.9 52.4 0.98
1650 2.2 248.5 1650 -6.4 54.0 0.98
1700 0.6 250.1 1700 -4.8 55.6 0.98
1710 -1.7 251.6 1710 -3.3 57.1 0.98
1720 -3.6 253.2 1720 -1.7 58.6 0.98
1730 -5.5 254.7 1730 0.4 60.1 0.98 shahr
1740 -7.3 256.2 1740 1.9 61.6 0.98
1750 -9.2 257.7 1750 3.5 63.0 0.98
1800 -11.1 259.2 1800 5.1 64.4 0.98You are forgetting practical reality. The fact is that the full-moon on November 2 is the full-moon. Sunset starts from the time the sun starts to go through the horizon (the sun is about .5 degrees wide, and so is the moon). So here is the data for November 2 and 3
November 2
Sun
Time Altitude Azimuth
1701 0.6 250.5
Moon
Time Altitude Azimuth Fraction Illuminated
1648 0.5 64.8 1November 3
Sun
Time Altitude Azimuth
1701 0.4 250.2
Moon
Time Altitude Azimuth Fraction Illuminated
1731 0.6 60.3 0.98As you can see, the moon on November 3 occurs 30 minutes after sunset (will appear to an earth bound observer even later). On the other hand, the full-moon on November 2 occurs only 13 minutes before sunset. More practically speaking though, unless you are in the middle of the sea, the full moon doesn?t actually appear to earth bound observers until it has risen about 2 degrees so it will be apparent at the same time as the sunset. There is no ambiguity that this is the full moon and any doubt will be cleared once one sees that the next day moon appears more than 30 minutes after sunset.
Again there was never any doubt about when the full-moon occurs, on the other hand there is doubt EVERY SINGLE YEAR about when the new moon crescent of the sectarian Ramadhan appears. This is indisputable, but you are clearly biased. So the way for you to prove your point is to bring an independent source showing that there is or ever was a dispute on when the full-moon occurs. On the other hand, there is a dispute EVERY SINGLE YEAR about when your so-called Ramadhan occurs. Here is the data for this year showing a variation of THREE days even within the same country or countries right next to each other
Ramadan Start- Friday 21-August
Libya, Turkey, Lebanon (Shiites), Kosovo, Macedonia, Romania, Bosnia, Herzegovina, Serbia, Bulgaria, Montenegro, Albania, Slovenia, Russia, Germany, EU (The European Council for Fatwa and Research).Ramadan Start ? Saturday 22-August
Indonesia, Malaysia, Sri Lanka, Philippines, China, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain, United Arab Emirates, Syria, Lebanon (Sunni), Jordan, Palestine, Sudan, Yemen, Iraq, Iran, France, Belgium, Spain, Switzerland, USA (Following Saudi), UK.Ramadan Start ? Sunday 23-August
India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, USA (some communities by actual local sighting)The above is on top of the fact that your so-called Ramadhan is 100% arbitrary to begin with since it is dependent on when month 1 was made to start, the arbitrary order of the months and the arbitrary start of the era. Those are indisputably THREE 100% arbitrary and manmade factors.
Instead of wasting your time trying to jealously prove that like the empirically verifiable 3 day dispute in your so-called Ramadhan there is dispute on when the full-moon occurs, I would suggest that you try to help Belal answer the following question. You guys are going to need all the help you can get. Bring a Billion sectarian supporting one another if you want but still you will never be able to do it. )
How your Ramadhan and your Hajj on the 8th to the 13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah and your restricted months (Muharam, Rajab, Dhu Al-Qi3da, Dhu Al-Hijjah, or whatever) are based purely on the god's words from the great reading and not on some unknown people or some guy named Umar arbitrarily deciding the order the months and the start of year 1 month 1 or on what the majority or Mullahs say or on Hadiths or any other such crap.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace NunHolidayPseudoEidRex (?)
theNabster, and by the grace of Allah, strives to be on the side of Allah, who is the Truth,
and not His Creation who are history or well below his Splendor, be they Messengers, Prophets, Angels,
Humans or Jinns.
Allah has given me great gifts, and I use them to understand as best as He wishes me to His Creation, and
His Quran.
If that includes your misnomer "cheer-leading" of an approach that is closer to what Allah wants in terms
of how we should perform the fast, so will it be, but your derogatory remark says more about you than it says about me...
Allah in His Mercy will, I pray, accept and reward us for all the fasts that we have made so far, but if we are made aware
that we are exaggerating in our Deen, and this is not how Allah wants us to conduct our affairs, then, there will be no excuse after that.
Because there are good convincing arguments of exaggerations put forward, and Ahl al Sunnah, Ahl al Shiaa, and other Sects/Cults are not taking heed, so soon, Allah might send mighty painful warnings, and I do not wish to be on the side of those on whom Allah's wrath will fall...
At the end of the day, each of us is on his/her own... -
Peace,
The answer shouts in your face.
After a first few observations, take the first day that came, and each year adjust...This is not the recipe for an accurate timing system. Ayman?s criterion is length of longest day?.. Thus any of equal longest days meets the criteria. This system will cause more disputes and fighting than the system Ayman is trying to replace.
Do nor overestimate those guys from the past. They were very good at figuring out patterns, what they lacked in technology, they made up with acumen and craftsmanship...
I see, you are accepting and giving credit to some people of the past (non believer) and not other (believers). Your logic is contradictory, so is your thought process. You favor non believer over the believer.
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Peace guest
your mind is pretty much made up that anyone who does not agree with you is deceitful.
so i am tired arguing with you.
let us call it quits, and let Allah decides. He is the one who eventually will impose His Will
no matter what you, me, or Ayman and the rest of the Humans and Jinns put forward.
Good bye and have a nice life
Salam
Noble -
Peace,
If Guest and you are really sincere and think that you are not stupid and are not misguided followers of satan, then instead of continuously spewing nonsense on this thread and being obsessed with me and what I think,
No one is obsessed with you. We are just responding to your illogical and irrational postulate. Perhaps you forgot that you authored the nonsense article at the begging of this thread. Your satanic pride and ego fooled you again; no one is obsessed with you.
just forget about me and explain to everyone the following
How your Ramadhan and your Hajj on the 8th to the 13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah and your restricted months (Muharam, Rajab, Dhu Al-Qi3da, Dhu Al-Hijjah, or whatever) are based purely on the god's words from the great reading and not on some unknown people or some guy named Umar arbitrarily deciding the order the months and the start of year 1 month 1 or on what the majority or Mullahs say or on Hadiths or any other such crap.
Looks like you have abandoned your own theory and off to a new topic. Now that you cannot defend you work anymore you want to change the subject. Why are you running like zebras?
Here is a rebuttal of your saying
?purely on the god's words from the great reading?
The God tells us that we can accept the teaching of scholar provided it is in line with the Quran. Unlike you the believer will not mislead the mankind.
9122 - When the believers mobilize, not all of them shall do so. A few from each group shall mobilize by devoting their time to studying the religion. Thus, they can pass the knowledge on to their people when they return, that they may remain religiously informed.
Below is another example that justifies acceptance of knowledge from others believers. As you see some are more knowledgeable than other. You are not among the knowledgeable because you are a dishonest person.
2715 - We endowed David and Solomon with knowledge, and they said, "Praise GOD for blessing us more than many of His believing servants."
Finally, the word of the day for you (Ayman).
981 - Those who disbelieved among the people of the scripture, as well as the idol worshipers, insist on their ways, despite the proof given to them.
986 - Those who disbelieved among the people of the scripture, and the idol worshipers, have incurred the fire of Gehenna forever. They are the worst creatures.
-
Peace guest,
this is exactly what I meant by my last post, anyone who disagrees with you is now a kafeer too, are you sure you are not an ultra salafist by any chance?
the history of islam is filled with bad fatwas by scholars who created mayhem in the ranks of believers.
-who let Ali be assassinated like a dog at Kufa?
-was Hussein killed by muslims yes or no?
-was Hassan poisoned by order of a muslim yes or no?
-who sided with the crusaders on the 9th century and gave Jerusalem to them, a muslim faction yes or no?
-how about the excesses of baghdad, and the painful retribution of the mongol invasion with all books and knowledge
destroyed, and scholars killed with their skulls made into pyramids by playful mongonl soldiers - why this ignominous end,
where there not muslims among them, yes or no?
-who is to blame for the debacle of the Moors (Muslims) in Spain, where they divided into little fiefdoms, fighting one another, in contradiction
with the Quranic injunction that they should not divide into sects? and got seduced with women and pleasures?
-and closer to home, who again handed Jerusalem again to the British Empire, and help to finalise the fall of the Muslim Ottoman Empire (were they not the Wahabbis whom you now take as patrons, beside Allah?).Now let us go back in History and even if it is not fully forensically authenticated, how about when Mohamed was very sick and close to death, his companions were discussing near his room the person who will replace him, and Umar put himself forward despite the majority choosing Abu Bakr, despite the pain, the Prophet came out of the room crawling, and looked very angry, showing his discontent, the Companions looked at it as a Sign that Abu Bakr, who was reported to be humble, should it be...
Does this strike as infallible humans?, just because they are believers?
You look at the Believers of old, and give them God like attributes of infallibility, beware, this is shirk, only Allah is infallible.
And being a Believer is not a permanent state, it has its ups and downs as well.
What you refer to as study the Deen in The Quran, is improve in knowledge in comprehension of what was given you, so you can apply it better... Life and its multiple challenges is dynamic, you want to make it static, and live like a zombie, no wonder, most of the wahabbis/ sunnis / shias / etc will only ever have one motto, destroy what you cannot understand.
and you seem to be clearly one of them, living in the shadows of the mistakes of those before you...
And by the way, if there was only one single true real believer on this Planet Earth, Allah will have some pity on us... as it is we will keep on suffering as the people of Moses, before Moses, slaves that we are... -
Salam nabster,
-was Hussein killed by muslims yes or no?
-was Hassan poisoned by order of a muslim yes or no?
-who sided with the crusaders on the 9th century and gave Jerusalem to them, a muslim faction yes or no?the answer to all the above is a categoric no since a Muslim by definition is a person who submits to the laws of God (hence, someone who does not submit is not a "muslim" at that moment and is no longer under God's divine protection).
Now let us go back in History and even if it is not fully forensically authenticated, how about when Mohamed was very sick and close to death, his companions were discussing near his room the person who will replace him, and Umar put himself forward despite the majority choosing Abu Bakr, despite the pain, the Prophet came out of the room crawling, and looked very angry, showing his discontent, the Companions looked at it as a Sign that Abu Bakr, who was reported to be humble, should it be...
Does this strike as infallible humans?, just because they are believers?What nonsence! the prophet and those who follow him would uphold the laws of governance as outlined in the Quran (leadership by consultaion and debate - never by sucession). the story is clearly fabricated.
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Salam Layth,
Indeed it might be, or it might be not, because consultation includes disapproval of the Leader, and according to Aisha (who purportedly related the story), most of the companions and the Prophet wanted Abu Bakr, but a small group and Umar who are very influential pushed Umar forward, who was well known to get things done (I have nothing against Umar, I have never known the guy, apart from through Seera and Hadith stories, and we know how unreliable these could be).
So it could have been a matter of correcting his aspirations by the Prophet to Umar, do not forget people do get carried away, and a Believer can be misled to be thinking he is the best for the job, and tries to win the majority towards him, well if this account is true, the Prophet seems to have put a brake on that...
But as all these accounts, we will never know exactly, all these people died, and the only account we can accept as hopeful Believers, are what was recorded in the Quran... -
Peace,
this is exactly what I meant by my last post, anyone who disagrees with you is now a kafeer too, are you sure you are not an ultra salafist by any chance?
It?s not my way. It is God?s way or the highway.
the history of islam is filled with bad fatwas by scholars who created mayhem in the ranks of believers.
You didn?t get the most important part of my message. I will highlight the part for you. The God tells us that we can accept the teaching of scholar provided it is in line with the Quran.
The God has warned us about the satan and his tricks. Therefore, all the killing and conspiracy you mentioned is no news to me. Ayman is spreading lies about God and we have to be aware of it. You are a liar making up things about good people. Produce your evidence. I have to be aware of bad (satan) people like yourself. I seek the God?s help. He will guide me.
with the Quranic injunction that they should not divide into sects? and got seduced with women and pleasures?
You make a good example of being seduced by Ayman.
-and closer to home, who again handed Jerusalem again to the British Empire, and help to finalise the fall of the Muslim Ottoman Empire (were they not the Wahabbis whom you now take as patrons, beside Allah?).
You look at the Believers of old, and give them God like attributes of infallibility, beware, this is shirk, only Allah is infallible.
I don?t give anybody God like attributes. It is you giving Ayman the God like attributes. And please stop associating bad attributes to the believers.
Life and its multiple challenges is dynamic, you want to make it static, and live like a zombie, no wonder, most of the wahabbis/ sunnis / shias / etc will only ever have one motto, destroy what you cannot understand.
and you seem to be clearly one of them, living in the shadows of the mistakes of those before you...And you are the judge, jury, and the executioner. You know it all. And you are talking about infallibility. Shame on you.
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Peace guest
you are really a dangerous feral child. I hope they do not allow people to carry guns in your country, you will probably kill me...
what a lost soul you are, hiding behind a pretense of belief...
are you that blind to what surrounds you? Can't you see that Allah has forsaken the "Ummah" you fantasise about?
It does not exist... a mirage...
who cares about you or Ayman, or me?
I personally long to die every single day because I feel so uncomfortable seeing what's going on around me...
My being here in this thread is for closure, I do not care what you think, I am convinced now, from next year, I will be fasting
10 days at Ramadan Badr after the Summer Solstice, until Allah shows me a Sign otherwise.
There is a nice saying in Arabic, do not be too rigid, or you will break, and do not be too soft, or you will get squeezed, clearly
you are a very hard and rigid individual, and sincerely, I feel myself, by the grace of Allah, a better Muslim than you are, why because watching my brothers and sisters jumping through a cliff pains me, whereas you seem you want to push them even further. -
Peace,
you are really a dangerous feral child. I hope they do not allow people to carry guns in your country, you will probably kill me...
what a lost soul you are, hiding behind a pretense of belief...You need psychiatric help. Apparently, God?s word is not enough for you. How sad.
There is a nice saying in Arabic, do not be too rigid, or you will break, and do not be too soft, or you will get squeezed, clearly
you are a very hard and rigid individual, and sincerely, I feel myself, by the grace of Allah, a better Muslim than you are,You are a compromiser like the satanic people who tried to compromise with Prophet Muhammad.
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Peace guest
It is you who God's words is not enough for you that you need a calendar set up by Umar in the 7th century, and countless decisions made by Imam Shafie and Bukhari and others to feel your Deen complete.
Stop this charade about compromise, I am not about playing scrabble with you...
My purpose is not to please the likes of you, oki...
What you would have loved is that I would have bent to you and asked show me this or show me that.
Allah has freed Man from the Slavery of Man to the Service to Him, it is up to Man to take the challenge.
What you are saying is that I am a Slave to Man, well, first of, I am not a slave to Ayman, and certainly not to you, and not to anyone by the grace of my Maker, other than my Maker, so go and chant your pitiful preachy serenades to whoever is idle enough to listen to them...
Bye... -
Peace,
What you would have loved is that I would have bent to you and asked show me this or show me that.
You don't know much about the Quran, do you. God is the one who guides. Not me, not you, not Prophet Muhammad. Get it. The God told Prophet Muhammad that you can ask forgiveness for others seventy times, I will not forgive them. If you knew this then you wouldn't have made the comment, you did.
What you are saying is that I am a Slave to Man, well, first of, I am not a slave to Ayman, and certainly not to you, and not to anyone by the grace of my Maker, other than my Maker, so go and chant your pitiful preachy serenades to whoever is idle enough to listen to them...
You are making all these false accusation without any proof. You are the one following Ayman's false doctrine and now you are blaming me for it. What a illogical mind.
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Peace Guest,
No one is obsessed with you. We are just responding to your illogical and irrational postulate. Perhaps you forgot that you authored the nonsense article at the begging of this thread. Your satanic pride and ego fooled you again; no one is obsessed with you.
It sounds like you are trying to convince yourself.
Looks like you have abandoned your own theory and off to a new topic. Now that you cannot defend you work anymore you want to change the subject. Why are you running like zebras?
Here is a rebuttal of your saying
?purely on the god's words from the great reading?
The God tells us that we can accept the teaching of scholar provided it is in line with the Quran. Unlike you the believer will not mislead the mankind.You mean the same scholars that told you
- Dip flies in your food because one of its wings is medicine.
- Drink warm fresh camel urine to cure all your ills.
- Kiss the behind of a Black Stone to get all your sins forgiven.
Sorry I forgot about those..ahem...scholars. I guess you win and you don't have to prove your arbitrary timing based purely on the god's words from the great reading since you got the "scholars". )
9122 - When the believers mobilize, not all of them shall do so. A few from each group shall mobilize by devoting their time to studying the religion. Thus, they can pass the knowledge on to their people when they return, that they may remain religiously informed.
You are right when the believers returned they were eager to learn about kissing the Black Stone and dipping flies in their food and drink and about arbitrary months such as Dhu Al-Qi'ada and all sorts of important things left untold by the great reading but revealed to scholars. Why didn't I think of that? )
Below is another example that justifies acceptance of knowledge from others believers. As you see some are more knowledgeable than other. You are not among the knowledgeable because you are a dishonest person.
2715 - We endowed David and Solomon with knowledge, and they said, "Praise GOD for blessing us more than many of His believing servants."David and Solomon didn't know anything about kissing a black stone or dipping flies in their food. So I guess your scholars are much more knowledgeable than David and Solomon. )
Finally, the word of the day for you (Ayman).
981 - Those who disbelieved among the people of the scripture, as well as the idol worshipers, insist on their ways, despite the proof given to them.
986 - Those who disbelieved among the people of the scripture, and the idol worshipers, have incurred the fire of Gehenna forever. They are the worst creatures.The idol worshippers are those who refuse to kiss a black stone or revere and mindlessly spin around a black cube and they don't believe in dipping flies in their food or drinking camel urine to cure all ills and they don't follow an arbitrary manmade timing system but instead follow the timing based purely on the great reading. On the other hand, the believers are those who love to kiss, fondle and mindlessly spin around a bunch of filthy stones and follow the Hadiths of the scholars and their 100% arbitrary manmade timing system. I guess I was wrong because I thought it was the other way around ).
May the god give you and your scholars what you deserve on the day of the account.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Layth,
the answer to all the above is a categoric no since a Muslim by definition is a person who submits to the laws of God (hence, someone who does not submit is not a "muslim" at that moment and is no longer under God's divine protection).
Anyone can call himself a Muslim (capital M). It is even written on people's ID card and birth certificate in the Middle East. People who have fought one another over power during the first civil war were not "muslimeen" even if they called themselves Muslim (capital M).
What nonsence! the prophet and those who follow him would uphold the laws of governance as outlined in the Quran (leadership by consultaion and debate - never by sucession). the story is clearly fabricated.
Which part is fabricated? Is it the part that the leaders at that time were "followers of the prophet" or the part that they fought each other? We know that the first Islamic civil war and the ensuing Shiite movement happened. So objectively and without emotional attachment to those guys, the part that is most likely fabricated must be the first one.
Peace,
Ayman
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guest,
Brother salam.
All these years of mine that I have stayed in this forum , I am yet to come across a person, who's mind is so much deprived of logic such as yours, and on top of it you label everyone as satan, who tries to question any of the twisted practices we have inherited. With such a clogged and shackled brain, I am a little surprised to find you as member of FREE_MINDS.
I sincerely pray that GOD heals your sick brain, but at your end, you need to atleast recognise the problem and initiate some effort, what ever little it may be.
peace
siki
