Hot/"ramadan" Answer

ayman

Peace Belal,

Who gave you this title?

You just did. Once again, please stop idolizing me. )

Peace,

Ayman

belH

Peace Hope4,

in fact the "new moon" is never mentioned in the great reading.

Ayman, stop lying about Our Lord

They ask you regarding the crescent moons, say They are a timing mechanism for the people and the Pilgrimage. And piety is not that you would enter a home from its back, but piety is whoever is righteous and comes to the homes from their main doors. And be aware of God that you may succeed.
2189

ayman

Peace Belal,

Peace Hope4,

in fact the "new moon" is never mentioned in the great reading.

Ayman, stop lying about Our Lord

They ask you regarding the crescent moons, say They are a timing mechanism for the people and the Pilgrimage. And piety is not that you would enter a home from its back, but piety is whoever is righteous and comes to the homes from their main doors. And be aware of God that you may succeed.
2189

Please underline the word "new moon" in your translation above. Belal, a word of advice, if you are going to accuse people that they are lying and be obnoxious about everything that you say and use big fonts then you had better be 100% sure because you know that you will get called on it and if you turn out to be wrong as usual, then you would only be further exposing more loudly your inability to patiently read my posts and even less so your own posts and your lack of logic in responding. Please take this as a friendly advice. )

Peace,

Ayman

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Peace Belal,

Ayman, stop lying about Our Lord

They ask you regarding the crescent moons, say They are a timing mechanism for the people and the Pilgrimage. And piety is not that you would enter a home from its back, but piety is whoever is righteous and comes to the homes from their main doors. And be aware of God that you may succeed.
2189

Please underline the word "new moon" in your translation above. Belal, a word of advice, if you are going to accuse people that they are lying and be obnoxious about everything that you say and use big fonts then you had better be 100% sure because you know that you will get called on it and if you turn out to be wrong as usual, then you would only be further exposing more loudly your inability to patiently read my posts and even less so your own posts and your lack of logic in responding. Please take this as a friendly advice. )

Peace,

Ayman

He didnt use "new moon" in his translation..

hope4

Peace Hope4,

Thank you for researching and sharing this interesting info. I agree that this info must be carefully scrutinized. We have to validate what the people of the book claim against what the great reading tells us. There is nothing in the great reading about blowing horns on the new moon and in fact the "new moon" is never mentioned in the great reading. On the other hand, we are told in the great reading that "hagg"/feast is "ashhur ma'alumat" and we know that one of the meanings of "shahr" is "full-moon". The people of the book KNEW that the hagg/feast was on the full-moon. It is not a coincidence that the timing for the "hagg"/feast of the people of the book (Hag Sukkot) coincides with the fourth full-moon after the summer solstice.

Peace,

Ayman

Peace Ayman

Thank you for the explenation. Can I conclude from what I wrote earlier that the Jews used a luni-solar calander and not purely lunar one?

Peace

Hope

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Peace,

Peace Ayman

Thank you for the explenation. Can I conclude from what I wrote earlier that the Jews used a luni-solar calander and not purely lunar one?

Peace

Hope

Depends which 'Jews' you are talking about.

http//www.submission.org/fasting-bible.html

guest

Peace Guest,

It is a certainty unless you can quote passages that say the following things, which your false manmade timing is based on

O believers, take the date of the Hijra to start the calendar.
O believers, sorry but forget about point #1 above and don't take the actual supposed date of the Hijra to start the calendar but instead start the calendar from 3 months prior to the Hijra.
O believers, the order of the months is Muharram, Safar, Rabi' al-awwal, Rabi' al-thani, Jumada al-awwal, Jumada al-thani, Rajab, Sha'aban, Ramadan, Shawwal, Dhu al-Qi'dah, Dhu al-Hijjah.
O believers ignore 95 because the restricted "months" are not consecutive but are the arbitrary Dhu al-Qi'dah, Dhu al-Hijjah, Muharram, and Rajab.
O believers ignore 2189 and perform your Hajj from the 8th to the 13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah.
O believers ignore 1712 and don?t use day and night to determine the number of years and instead use the moon alone, which is not mentioned at all in 1712.
O believers ignore the meaning of the word ?ramadhan? and take it as meaningless nonsense.
O believers ignore 936 and instead count ?months? forever and don?t stop at 12, thereby making every month in your calendar dependent on when month 1 started. However, trick people into thinking that you are counting 12 by recycling the anyway meaningless names of the months every 12 names.

Peace,

Ayman

1.?O believers, take the date of the Hijra to start the calendar.?

The starting point of a calendar is irreverent, illogical and pointless in counting number of years in lunar (or any) calendar system. This statement of yours demonstrates that you know NOTHING about calendar system. Yet, you are trying to establish new timing system. This is like using the testimony of a blind man for an eyewitness account. And this can only happen in Ayman?s system. Ayman is WRONG.

?O believers, sorry but forget about point #1 above and don't take the actual supposed date of the Hijra to start the calendar but instead start the calendar from 3 months prior to the Hijra.?

Again, knowledgeable people will laugh at this statement of yours as this has no impact on counting number of years. You are making a fool of yourself. Only the ignorant will be with you.

?O believers, the order of the months is Muharram, Safar, Rabi' al-awwal, Rabi' al-thani, Jumada al-awwal, Jumada al-thani, Rajab, Sha'aban, Ramadan, Shawwal, Dhu al-Qi'dah, Dhu al-Hijjah.?

The order of the months has been established and used by Prophet Muhammad and remained intact. You did not produce any evidence to disprove this system. You are jealous of Prophet Muhammad and angry at God for not choosing you as a Prophet or a messenger. Please be thankful of what He gave you and do not cross bound set by the God. This is for your own good.

?O believers ignore 95 because the restricted "months" are not consecutive but are the arbitrary Dhu al-Qi'dah, Dhu al-Hijjah, Muharram, and Rajab.?

Ayman is the one ignoring 95 by forcing Ramadan in the restricted month. Plus there is a one year gap between his restricted months when he cannot witness the full moon after summer solstice due to bad weather. This is how horrible his design is.

?O believers ignore 2189 and perform your Hajj from the 8th to the 13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah.?

Only an ignorant would ignore 2189 and that would be your system. Your attempt to turn truth into falsehood will never successed. Performing Hajj in the month of Al-Hijjah is fully compliant with 2189. The new moon is the marker and the Hajj is performed thereafter. 8th thru 13 are within the phases of the moon.

?O believers ignore 1712 and don?t use day and night to determine the number of years and instead use the moon alone, which is not mentioned at all in 1712.?

Ayman is WRONG again. We use day and night to calculate lunar month. When we say moon is 8 day old, it means we have used solar days (includes night i.e. 24 hrs interval) to calculate moon?s age. Ayman is incapable of comprehending this simple fact.

Ayman?s timing system is 100% visual based which means calculation is prohibited thus violating 1712 which allows for calculation based timing system.

Since there are at least THREE LONGEST DAYS (no clear marker), Ayman relies on madam the palm reader to determine which day to use as the marker. And since he has forbidden the calculation, he must witness the full moon. And if he cannot witness the full moon due to heavy cloud, he must wait a year to get back to his marker i.e. he incurs an error of 1 year. He has created a flawed system.

?O believers ignore the meaning of the word ?ramadhan? and take it as meaningless nonsense.?

Ayman is WRONG again. We are using the correct meaning of Ramadan. Whereas Ayman is twisting God?s words to support false theory.

? believers ignore 936 and instead count ?months? forever and don?t stop at 12, thereby making every month in your calendar dependent on when month 1 started. However, trick people into thinking that you are counting 12 by recycling the anyway meaningless names of the months every 12 names.?

Ayman is the one who is ignoring 936. In his system there is no concept of months. He is defining June solstice to June solstice a year. Therefore, he has to fabricate months (unnatural) in violation of 936. Ayman is beating around the bush to prove his faulty point/logic. Therefore, only illogical people will follow his theory. As I said before there is no relation between month 1 and calculation of years. Ayman is desperate; he is throwing unintelligent questions at us to hide his falsehood.

ayman

Peace everyone,

1.?O believers, take the date of the Hijra to start the calendar.?
The starting point of a calendar is irreverent, illogical and pointless in counting number of years in lunar (or any) calendar system. This statement of yours demonstrates that you know NOTHING about calendar system. Yet, you are trying to establish new timing system. This is like using the testimony of a blind man for an eyewitness account. And this can only happen in Ayman?s system. Ayman is WRONG.

When there is a switch from a Luni-solar calendar to a lunar calendar then the lunar calendar will depend on when the switch was made. This is due to the fact that the lunar calendar shifts by a month every three years. Therefore, had the switch been made three years earlier then what is now Ramadhan would have been Shaaban and had the switch been made three years later then Ramadhan would have been what is now Shawal. Only those who can't even count to 3 don't understand this.

?O believers, sorry but forget about point #1 above and don't take the actual supposed date of the Hijra to start the calendar but instead start the calendar from 3 months prior to the Hijra.?

Again, knowledgeable people will laugh at this statement of yours as this has no impact on counting number of years. You are making a fool of yourself. Only the ignorant will be with you.

Had month 1 been the actual supposed date of the Hijra then month 9 would be 3 months later and Guest would be fasting 3 months later. Guest is the only one not to know this indisputable fact.

?O believers, the order of the months is Muharram, Safar, Rabi' al-awwal, Rabi' al-thani, Jumada al-awwal, Jumada al-thani, Rajab, Sha'aban, Ramadan, Shawwal, Dhu al-Qi'dah, Dhu al-Hijjah.?
The order of the months has been established and used by Prophet Muhammad and remained intact. You did not produce any evidence to disprove this system. You are jealous of Prophet Muhammad and angry at God for not choosing you as a Prophet or a messenger. Please be thankful of what He gave you and do not cross bound set by the God. This is for your own good.

Notice that Guest doesn't contest the fact that his present arbitrary timing is 100% dependent on the order of the months. Even the stupidest person can't dispute this fact. So now unlike the other points where he likes to play stupid, he is forced to shamelessly lie. Even Guest's moronic scholars don't make such a ridiculous and baseless claim about the prophet. Guest is a liar who has attributed the order of the months to the prophet without any authority from the god. On previous posts, he has admitted that he is not following the great reading but is following his "innermost thoughts" (another word for his "innermost desires&quot. As we saw, his outermost thoughts are soiled with stupidity and lies so we can be sure that things only get dirtier for his innermost desires.

?O believers ignore 95 because the restricted "months" are not consecutive but are the arbitrary Dhu al-Qi'dah, Dhu al-Hijjah, Muharram, and Rajab.?
Ayman is the one ignoring 95 by forcing Ramadan in the restricted month. Plus there is a one year gap between his restricted months when he cannot witness the full moon after summer solstice due to bad weather. This is how horrible his design is.

The question was about providing anything from the great reading to support the sectarian arbitrary timing of the restricted "months". The question was not about me. Obviously, Guest has nothing to support his falsehood that the arbitrary "Dhu al-Qi'dah, Dhu al-Hijjah, Muharram, and Rajab" are the "restricted months" and therefore as usual his satanic innermost thoughts tempt him to divert the issue with false idiotic babbling.

?O believers ignore 2189 and perform your Hajj from the 8th to the 13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah.?
Only an ignorant would ignore 2189 and that would be your system. Your attempt to turn truth into falsehood will never successed. Performing Hajj in the month of Al-Hijjah is fully compliant with 2189. The new moon is the marker and the Hajj is performed thereafter. 8th thru 13 are within the phases of the moon.

Only people like Guest don't know that ALL days within any month are "within the phases of the moon" so it could be the xxth-xxth. So Guest has just called himself an ignorant because indeed he ignores 2189. Guest listens to 2189 saying that the crescents provide timing for the "hajj" but then his evil innermost thoughts change what he heard into "the new moon is the marker and the "hajj" is performed within any of the phases of the moon" (on the 8th there is no crescent but there is about half full and on the 13th there is no crescent either but the moons is about 95% full).

?O believers ignore 1712 and don?t use day and night to determine the number of years and instead use the moon alone, which is not mentioned at all in 1712.?
Ayman is WRONG again. We use day and night to calculate lunar month. When we say moon is 8 day old, it means we have used solar days (includes night i.e. 24 hrs interval) to calculate moon?s age. Ayman is incapable of comprehending this simple fact.
Ayman?s timing system is 100% visual based which means calculation is prohibited thus violating 1712 which allows for calculation based timing system.
Since there are at least THREE LONGEST DAYS (no clear marker), Ayman relies on madam the palm reader to determine which day to use as the marker. And since he has forbidden the calculation, he must witness the full moon. And if he cannot witness the full moon due to heavy cloud, he must wait a year to get back to his marker i.e. he incurs an error of 1 year. He has created a flawed system.

No one can use the day and night alone to calculate the lunar month. One cannot look at the day and night alone to know that the moon is 8 or any xx days old. This is an indisputable fact that only the dumbest don't know. Also, Guest's innermost thoughts are deluding him into changing 1712 to say that it talks about calculating the moon's age in the lunar month when it clearly talks about calculating the number of years. Guest is also further demonstrating that he is a pathological liar. I never have "forbidden" the calculation for knowing the number of years or anything.

?O believers ignore the meaning of the word ?ramadhan? and take it as meaningless nonsense.?
Ayman is WRONG again. We are using the correct meaning of Ramadan. Whereas Ayman is twisting God?s words to support false theory.

What is the meaning that Guest and his sectarian accomplices are using? As usual he is lying and this is why he doesn't dare to tell us this mysterious meaning. He knows that he is using it as a meaningless proper name of an arbitrary month.

? believers ignore 936 and instead count ?months? forever and don?t stop at 12, thereby making every month in your calendar dependent on when month 1 started. However, trick people into thinking that you are counting 12 by recycling the anyway meaningless names of the months every 12 names.?
Ayman is the one who is ignoring 936. In his system there is no concept of months. He is defining June solstice to June solstice a year. Therefore, he has to fabricate months (unnatural) in violation of 936. Ayman is beating around the bush to prove his faulty point/logic. Therefore, only illogical people will follow his theory. As I said before there is no relation between month 1 and calculation of years. Ayman is desperate; he is throwing unintelligent questions at us to hide his falsehood.

There is an inherent relation in the sectarian false calendar between month 1 and the present sectarian Ramadhan. Had month 1 been one month earlier then Ramadhan year 1 would have been 1 month earlier and so would be all the Ramadhans up to today. By merely recycling the anyway meaningless names of the months every 12 names, sectarians are not counting 12 but they have not stopped counting since month 1 and this is why present day so-called Ramadhan is 100% tied to month 1. Guest is either a liar or too dumb to understand this simple indisputable fact (most likely both).

Peace,

Ayman

unknownuser

Peace Ayman,

So what it the best meaning for "ramadhan" according to you? A meaningless name of an arbitrary month? Or the circular and nonsensical "month of fast" so that when the god says "shahr ramadhan" he means "the month of the month of fast" according to your logic?

What month? You said "ramadhan" means the "month of fast" so "shahr ramadhan" according to you means "the month of the month of fast". Can't you provide even a half-decent answer that doesn't reduce 2185 into nonsense?

No, that is your distortion (building straw man) to justify a meaningless nonsensical full moon fantasy.

shahr ramadan ? "time" between two successive lunar phases.

falyasumhu -- so he should fast it (the month/Ramadan).

Prefer context/cross-reference for best meaning not dictionaries written between 13th and 19th century CE.

2185 clearly says "whoever amongst you xxxx should fast". Regardless of what xxxx means (vow or whatever other imaginary meanings you can make up), this implies that "those amongst you who don't xxxx are not oligated to fast". This is basic logic. You talk about strawman because you only see as far as your nose and fail to see the logical implications of your own interpretation.

No, believers who witness including the blind, those in cloudy weather or indoors after the sunset are obligated.

353 Rabbana amanna bima anzalta waittabaAAna alrrasoola faoktubna maAAa alshshahideena
Our Lord, we believed with what You descended, and we followed the messenger, so write us with the witnessing.

You are evading the question because you know that you have no answer.

Again, simply pretend you're on an island Nov 2, 2009 see the 100% full moon before the sunset.

Altitude and Azimuth of the Moon
Nov 2, 2009
Eastern Standard Time

Time Altitude Azimuth Fraction Illuminated
1704 3.0 67.1 1.00
1705 3.1 67.3 1.00
1706 3.3 67.4 1.00

Altitude and Azimuth of the Sun
1704 0.1 250.9
1705 -0.0 251.1
1706 -0.8 251.2

This has already been proven false. Why do you keep repeating false arguments? The things that are in 51-2 (honoring contracts, the livestock being made lawful, not hunting while restricted) clearly don't apply only around Mecca and only during "hajj". In fact, "hajj" is nowhere mentioned.

How does restricting hunting only on the 8th to 13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah and only on people walking half-naked while wearing nothing but towels and only in the vicinity of Mecca would be better for wild life than a global hunting restriction for the summer season?

I answered all your questions but so far you can't answer any of my questions.

Answering questions with rhetorical questions is not answering questions.

Clearly not global restriction (some animals give birth year round) nor hajj a feast to fast in...

2196 fasiyamu thalathati ayyamin fee alhajji -- so fasting three days in the hajj

Your arbitrary "restricted months" are haphazardly arranged as months 11, 12, 1 and 7 and are not consecutive?
There is nothing that anyone knew about the Islamic calendar in pre-Islamic times, including the start of the era, the order of the months or the names of the months (all of which the location of its months are based on).
Then post where in Qur'an it says that the "restricted" months are consecutive.
Then post evidence that full moons were used/skipped, etc. in Islamic or any times in history or as waiting devices with meanings other than those from dictionaries written between the 13th - 19th centuries which also have Ramadan defined as a month.

It is not a strawman unless you can disprove the following reality

Ramadan Start- Friday 21-August
Libya, Turkey, Lebanon (Shiites), Kosovo, Macedonia, Romania, Bosnia, Herzegovina, Serbia, Bulgaria, Montenegro, Albania, Slovenia, Russia, Germany, EU (The European Council for Fatwa and Research).

Ramadan Start ? Saturday 22-August
Indonesia, Malaysia, Sri Lanka, Philippines, China, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain, United Arab Emirates, Syria, Lebanon (Sunni), Jordan, Palestine, Sudan, Yemen, Iraq, Iran, France, Belgium, Spain, Switzerland, USA (Following Saudi), UK.

Ramadan Start ? Sunday 23-August
India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, USA (some communities by actual local sighting)

Again, all the above sources (Libya, Bosnia, Egypt, Saudi, India, Pakistan, etc.) that are independent from you and me didn't conspire with me against you just to prove you wrong. The above is the reality of what happened. What you are saying (that there is no dispute) is only in your wishful imagination.

No dispute when I should start fasting; nor would it make a difference if I had to wear glasses or if it was too cloudy outside or if I was indoors or I forgot to go outside view the full moon like you suggest.

When did you start your fast by the way?

23 August 2009 and have 10 days to make up due to travel and a bad cold.

Again, you are biased and therefore looking at things from a biased point of view. Please post an independent source (like I did) showing that there was ever a dispute on when the full-moon occurs. If you can't then just be honest and admit it.

How can there be a dispute on a thing not used in history to time Ramadan. Post evidence.

More importantly, just like guest, Belal and a billion sectarians, I am not surprised that you evade answering the most important question

How your Ramadhan and your Hajj on the 8th to the 13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah and your restricted months (Muharam, Rajab, Dhu Al-Qi3da, Dhu Al-Hijjah, or whatever) are based purely on the god's words from the great reading and not on some unknown people or some guy named Umar arbitrarily deciding the order the months and the start of year 1 month 1 or on what the majority or Mullahs say or on Hadiths or any other such crap.

You clearly have ZERO answer.

Post my opinion of hajj other than the above about feasting and fasting which before I post prefer to look at the subject thoroughly; again your straw man opinion on my view. This thread is about timing of fast which I did look at and found ZERO evidence for the full moon. Open a thread on hajj, this one is all over the place.

Peace

guest

Peace Ayman,

When there is a switch from a Luni-solar calendar to a lunar calendar then the lunar calendar will depend on when the switch was made. This is due to the fact that the lunar calendar shifts by a month every three years. Therefore, had the switch been made three years earlier then what is now Ramadhan would have been Shaaban and had the switch been made three years later then Ramadhan would have been what is now Shawal. Only those who can't even count to 3 don't understand this.

In order to have an intelligent discussion with your opponent, you need to understand his view point clearly and then you can agree or disagree. You can provide rationale for the disagreement. Your response clearly indicates that you failed to understand my viewpoint which is so simple that even a baby can understand it. I gave one read to your theory and understood your view point. I think you have serious comprehension problem.

MY SYSTEM IS PURE. PURE, PURE,...... LUNAR SYSTEM. THEREFORE, I DON?T HAVE THE LUNI_SOLAR SWITCH OR THREE YEARS PROBLEM. I live in a pure lunar timing system. Why can't you get this simple, simple, simple,.......concept.

The switch problem and the three years problem arises with your nonsense Luni-solar calendar. That is not my timing system. Therefore, I do not have your problem. You have created that problem for yourself. You deal with your problematic system. PLEASE DO NOT EQUATE YOUR POLLUTED SYSTEM TO MY GOD GIVEN PURE LUNAR SYSTEM DESIGNED FOR RELIGIOUS RITES. Therefore, do not give me the nonsense talk like this ?Therefore, had the switch been made three years earlier then what is now Ramadhan would have been Shaaban and had the switch been made three years later then Ramadhan would have been what is now Shawal.?

For non-religious purpose one may look at the solar calendar but that will have nothing to do with the lunar religious calendar. The problem arises when a foolish person try to integrate to different closed loop timing systems into one synchronous system. Your system does not provide solution rather it creates problems.

This is mind boggling. Why would anyone listen to this guy. I guess I should say why would anyone with intelligence listen to this guy named Ayman.

I will provide answers to your other nonsense talk when I get to it.

ayman

Peace Eid,

No, that is your distortion (building straw man) to justify a meaningless nonsensical full moon fantasy.
shahr ramadan ? "time" between two successive lunar phases.
falyasumhu -- so he should fast it (the month/Ramadan).
Prefer context/cross-reference for best meaning not dictionaries written between 13th and 19th century CE.

What best meaning? You mean the meaning that you like and fits with your preconceived sectarian nonsense. You have imagined a baseless meaning. Your imaginary meaning that "shahr ramadan" means "time" between two successive lunar phases is pure nonsense. If you disagree then please stop using fuzzy logic and tell us the following

Which phases?
What "shahr" means?
What "ramadhan" means?
Put them together and tell us what they mean together according to your logic?

Unless you can truthfully and clearly answer then anyone with a little bit of logic who closely scrutinizes your statement will see that it is nothing but conveniently vague imaginary nonsense.

No, believers who witness including the blind, those in cloudy weather or indoors after the sunset are obligated.
353 Rabbana amanna bima anzalta waittabaAAna alrrasoola faoktubna maAAa alshshahideena
Our Lord, we believed with what You descended, and we followed the messenger, so write us with the witnessing.

This has nothing to do with the timing. This has to do with your lack of understanding the logic of saying "whoever amongst you witnessed". It would equally apply to whatever vague "phases" you choose.

Answering questions with rhetorical questions is not answering questions.
Clearly not global restriction (some animals give birth year round) nor hajj a feast to fast in...
2196 fasiyamu thalathati ayyamin fee alhajji -- so fasting three days in the hajj

I will take this as a surrender on your part that you have no logic behind your useless hunting restriciton on a bunch of pagans walking half-naked wearing nothing but towels only in the vicinity of Mecca and only on the arbitrary 8th to 13th of Dhu-Alhijja.

Then post where in Qur'an it says that the "restricted" months are consecutive.

See 95 showing that they are clearly consecutive. If you contest that this is what 95 is implying then you will expose yourself.

Then post evidence that full moons were used/skipped, etc. in Islamic or any times in history or as waiting devices with meanings other than those from dictionaries written between the 13th - 19th centuries which also have Ramadan defined as a month.

Most people through out history had known HARVEST full-moons where harvest feasts/"hagg" took place. It is not my problem that you are the only one in the world who is ignorant of the very well known HARVEST MOON.

No dispute when I should start fasting; nor would it make a difference if I had to wear glasses or if it was too cloudy outside or if I was indoors or I forgot to go outside view the full moon like you suggest.
23 August 2009 and have 10 days to make up due to travel and a bad cold.

You are still dreaming. Wake up to reality. Your start of the fast on 23 of August is different from the vast majority of Muslims. So there was a disupte as everyone except you knows. Your problem is not in your sight or glasses or clouds it is in your blind mind, which deludes you into escaping reality. According to calculations (independent of glasses or cloudy outside or whatever) the new moon crescent occured on August 20 and the fast should be August 21. So you are contradicting yourself. Why didn't you fast on 21 August and instead waited for the VISIBLE 2 days old crescent and didn't fast with the actual precisely calculated New Moon crescent?

How can there be a dispute on a thing not used in history to time Ramadan. Post evidence.

Typical fallacious nonsense asking for negative proof for a dispute that never existed. The full-moon was used for many things throughout history such as the harvest feasts. No one ever had a dispute on when the full-moon occurs. The burden of proof is on you to show that there was ever a dispute on when the full-moon occurs, not just between idiotic sectarians but amongst any people.

Post my opinion of hajj other than the above about feasting and fasting which before I post prefer to look at the subject thoroughly; again your straw man opinion on my view. This thread is about timing of fast which I did look at and found ZERO evidence for the full moon. Open a thread on hajj, this one is all over the place.

In your arbitrary nonsensical timing nothing is connected and nothing makes sense so it is not surprising that you don't see a connection and therefore evade answering the question. You are not alone, no other defender of the sectarian timing on this thread was able to answer. I was hoping that you might be more intelligent than Guest or Belal. Instead you evade thereby unwillingly submitting to the fact that you have no answer. When cornered on specifics "staying on topic" suddenly becomes so important to a guy who posted irrelevant images such as a pile of skulls of the American Buffalo that have nothing to do with the fast or an irrelevant boring story about some guy on the beach. Come on Eid, you can be more intelligent than this, just try to answer as best as you can. )

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Peace Guest,

In order to have an intelligent discussion with your opponent, you need to understand his view point clearly and then you can agree or disagree. You can provide rationale for the disagreement. Your response clearly indicates that you failed to understand my viewpoint which is so simple that even a baby can understand it. I gave one read to your theory and understood your view point. I think you have serious comprehension problem.
MY SYSTEM IS PURE. PURE, PURE,...... LUNAR SYSTEM. THEREFORE, I DON?T HAVE THE LUNI_SOLAR SWITCH OR THREE YEARS PROBLEM. I live in a pure lunar timing system. Why can't you get this simple, simple, simple,.......concept.

You are delusional. The Islamic Calendar new era starts with a year 1 month 1 in the year 622CE. Prior to that it didn't exist and this is indisputable. If you disagree then tell us prior to 622CE which year you think it started in and what was its first month and the names of the months and their order and if it did exist prior to 622CE why was there a need to abolish it and start a new calendar in 622CE.

The switch problem and the three years problem arises with your nonsense Luni-solar calendar. That is not my timing system. Therefore, I do not have your problem. You have created that problem for yourself. You deal with your problematic system. PLEASE DO NOT EQUATE YOUR POLLUTED SYSTEM TO MY GOD GIVEN PURE LUNAR SYSTEM DESIGNED FOR RELIGIOUS RITES. Therefore, do not give me the nonsense talk like this ?Therefore, had the switch been made three years earlier then what is now Ramadhan would have been Shaaban and had the switch been made three years later then Ramadhan would have been what is now Shawal.?

There is no three or two or one or any number of years problem with the timing system based on the great reading. It gets automatically reset every year by counting exactly 12 full-moons in every verse 1712 year. So each year is independent from the next and month 1 this year has nothing to do with month 1 last year or 1400 years ago. This is why the believers are able to follow the correct timing at any time regardless of what happened about 1400 years ago while you can't.

For non-religious purpose one may look at the solar calendar but that will have nothing to do with the lunar religious calendar. The problem arises when a foolish person try to integrate to different closed loop timing systems into one synchronous system. Your system does not provide solution rather it creates problems.
This is mind boggling. Why would anyone listen to this guy. I guess I should say why would anyone with intelligence listen to this guy named Ayman.
I will provide answers to your other nonsense talk when I get to it.

Ask Eid, belal and others mindlessly defending the sectarian arbitrary calendar to help you. I bet they can't answer either. You guys are so clueless that you can't even answer the simple quesiton about why your so-called Hajj happens on the 8th to the 13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah and have to make up lame excuses like "this thread is about timing of fast".

Peace,

Ayman

guest

Peace Ayman,

Quote from Ayman ?When there is a switch from a Luni-solar calendar to a lunar calendar then the lunar calendar will depend on when the switch was made. This is due to the fact that the lunar calendar shifts by a month every three years. Therefore, had the switch been made three years earlier then what is now Ramadhan would have been Shaaban and had the switch been made three years later then Ramadhan would have been what is now Shawal. Only those who can't even count to 3 don't understand this.?

I have already provided response to the above quote but I will reiterate the main points again.

Luni-solar calendar suffers from switch and a month shift every three year because it is designed by immature people like you.
Pure lunar calendar does not have the problem of Luni-Solar calendar. If you are in the lunar reference frame then you experience no shift at all. But adult people with immature brain will ignorantly try to evaluate lunar system while they are on the solar reference frame. This will earn you a BIG ZERO in physics class. And people wonder why Muslims are getting a bad rap.
Within lunar calendar days and nights are used for calculating lunar months (1-12). In addition, day and night is used to establish salat timing.
Only intelligent question that can be asked of lunar system is that it is not in synch with the seasons. The answer is so what, who cares (disbeliever will use this to divert ignorant people). The God connected religious rites to the moon cycle and day and night AND NOT THE SOLAR CALENDAR.
People who follow the solar calendar are doing the same thing as the people who do not worship God alone disregarding the fact that God commanded us to do so in the Quran.

Quote from Ayman ?Had month 1 been the actual supposed date of the Hijra then month 9 would be 3 months later and Guest would be fasting 3 months later. Guest is the only one not to know this indisputable fact.?

Again, some foolish person keeps evaluating the lunar system from the luni-solar reference frame. This is the sign of mega senselessness. Fixing an initial point does not impact the counting or calculating the lunar month. For example ( for babies), let start a lunar calendar from 10th and 8th month and see if that changes timing of our religious rites e.g. Ramadan.

Islamic months (9 month is Ramadan)

8---9---10---11---12---1---2---3---4---5---6---7---8---9---10---11---12---1---2---3---4---5

If I start count from the 10th month then my year looks like this

10---11---12---1---2---3---4---5---6---7---8---9
10---11---12---1---2---3---4---5---6---7---8---9

If I start count from the 8th month then my year looks like this

8---9---10---11---12---1---2---3---4---5---6---7
8---9---10---11---12---1---2---3---4---5---6---7

As you can see I am performing Ramadan at the same time within the lunar calendar even after shifting the initial month. Start of the year does not change the Ramadan time.

Quote from Ayman ??..Guest is a liar who has attributed the order of the months to the prophet without any authority from the god.?

Prophet Muhammad established God?s system on earth truthfully and firmly. He validated the order of the months while he was on earth for many years after he got job of Prophet. That is what we follow. You are trying very hard to destroy that system without any evidence.

Quote from Ayman ?On previous posts, he has admitted that he is not following the great reading but is following his "innermost thoughts" (another word for his "innermost desires&quot.?

My innermost thought tell me to accept Quran as the truth unlike your innermost thought which tell you to make fun of Quran and destroy it if possible

Quote from Ayman ?The question was about providing anything from the great reading to support the sectarian arbitrary timing of the restricted "months". The question was not about me. Obviously, Guest has nothing to support his falsehood that the arbitrary "Dhu al-Qi'dah, Dhu al-Hijjah, Muharram, and Rajab" are the "restricted months" and therefore as usual his satanic innermost thoughts tempt him to divert the issue with false idiotic babbling.?

Look how Ayman is running like zebras. When I told him that Hajj was not the subject of this topic, he violently reacted by saying that it had everything to do with the full moon Ramadan theory. Now, that I exposed the truth about his system which has an error of at least one year, he is acting like a cry baby and saying the question is not about me. Guest is unfair to me. The truth is Ayman's system produces a gap of more than a year between the restricted months and he is asking us to accept his satanic teaching.

Quote from Ayman ?Only people like Guest don't know that ALL days within any month are "within the phases of the moon" so it could be the xxth-xxth. So Guest has just called himself an ignorant because indeed he ignores 2189.?

I gave you a lesson on phases of moon. See the below post from me to you. Instead of thanking me for the lesson you are calling me ignorant. What an unappreciative person you are.

Re Hot/"ramadan" Answer
? Reply #928 on July 27, 2009, 015557 PM
2189 - They ask you about the phases of the moon! Say, ?They provide a timing device for the people, and determine the time of Hajj, it is ....

The moon?s phases are parts of 29.530 days. It provides finer counts within a month. It is the natural cycle of the moon that are to be used for counting time and not Ayman's deviated (man made) solar or lunar calendar.

Quote from Ayman ?Guest listens to 2189 saying that the crescents provide timing for the "hajj" but then his evil innermost thoughts change what he heard into "the new moon is the marker and the "hajj" is performed within any of the phases of the moon" (on the 8th there is no crescent but there is about half full and on the 13th there is no crescent either but the moons is about 95% full).?

Now that you agree 8th thru 13th is within the phases of the moon, you are in fact validating that the Hajj can be performed any time during the month of Dhu al-Hijjah. By the way your definition of crescent is 100% nonsense. Crescent does not happen on dying moon.

Quote from Ayman ?No one can use the day and night alone to calculate the lunar month. One cannot look at the day and night alone to know that the moon is 8 or any xx days old. This is an indisputable fact that only the dumbest don't know. Also, Guest's innermost thoughts are deluding him into changing 1712 to say that it talks about calculating the moon's age in the lunar month when it clearly talks about calculating the number of years. Guest is also further demonstrating that he is a pathological liar. I never have "forbidden" the calculation for knowing the number of years or anything.?

Only you (Ayman) cannot use day and night to calculate moon?s age. All sensible people are able to do the calculation. Yes, 1712 tells us to count and calculate number of lunar years.

As for your statement ?I never have "forbidden" the calculation for knowing the number of years or anything.??

Yes you did. Just that you don?t know what you are talking about. Here is a quote from your initial post ?2185 doesn't say "whoever was told by someone, who was told by a Mullah about "al-shahr"", it says "whoever witnessed "al-shahr"".? You are forcing to witness the al-shahr which means you are negating the calculation otherwise it will be a contradiction.

Quote from Ayman ?There is an inherent relation in the sectarian false calendar between month 1 and the present sectarian Ramadhan. Had month 1 been one month earlier then Ramadhan year 1 would have been 1 month earlier and so would be all the Ramadhans up to today. By merely recycling the anyway meaningless names of the months every 12 names, sectarians are not counting 12 but they have not stopped counting since month 1 and this is why present day so-called Ramadhan is 100% tied to month 1. Guest is either a liar or too dumb to understand this simple indisputable fact (most likely both).

This is your nonsense talk. Read the response under the second quote above. Opps, I forgot that you have serious comprehension problem. Ask a five year to read and explain it to you. He will even give you a balloon after the lesson.

siki

confused My dilema in your case is that , "On one side you have the intellect to question the authenticity of the footage recorded on a disk, but then you blindly follow the scholar's passed on practices in the name of Islam , in gross violation of Quran ???

'( I just cant understand above. hypno Will you help me out here , as to how you accomplish this?

wow So you are zipping through this life with the help of innermost thoughts tempt only, and Quran has nothing to do with guidance in your case hmm

siki

guest,

hail Me too, waiting for a response from your side. eat

siki

noble

Peace all
Is Allah more worthy of worship than the moon?
Why this fixation with the moon, guest?
If it were not for the reference of the pre-islamic (pagan and polytheistic of course) Moon-God, I would have some sympathy for you,
but there is too many blasphemous references attached to a pure lunar calendar.
Who is bigger the Sun or the Moon, who is more useful the Sun or the Moon, can you see the Moon without the Sun? but you can see the Sun without the Moon...
One revolution of the Sun gives you twelve Moons, this is basic indexing, mathematics, we learnt from it. A year is one revolution of the Sun. A Month is one revolution of the Moon. Neat, geometrically and mathematically symmetrical.
Within each Month you have phases of the Moon for the counting of smaller portions of the Month.
Within each Month too you have capability like shadows for counting smaller portions of the Days that each Month is divided too
using Sun Set and Sun Rise.
Both Sun and Moon are used, bun Sun is the super index, and Moon is the sub index.
And as the Quran said, you cannot mix the too, each index is independent of each other, the Sun revolves around the center of the Galaxy, and the Moon revolves around the center of the Earth, but you can build a Calendar for a relative observer on Earth, by first taking the bigger Object the Sun as the principal index, and then the Moon for the months as the second index, then the weeks as the fourth index and so on...
If you want to be dogmatic and pig headed stick to your pagan Moon God inspired lunar calendar...

Sorry I said will abandon this thread, but I saw these untruth being written, like since when did Allah said that there was to be a distinction between real life and Deen?, and all other nonsense, I could not resist posting...

guest

Peace,

confused My dilema in your case is that , "On one side you have the intellect to question the authenticity of the footage recorded on a disk, but then you blindly follow the scholar's passed on practices in the name of Islam , in gross violation of Quran ???

I am not blindly following the scholar's passed on practices, you are blindly following the religious practice instituted by Ayman in violation of Quranic law. I follow the Quran and the Quranic laws as implemented by Prophet Muhammad. Which practice of mine is gross violation of Quran? The God has given me the understanding to distinguish between truth and falsehood. Thank you Lord the Great.

wow So you are zipping through this life with the help of innermost thoughts tempt only, and Quran has nothing to do with guidance in your case hmm

siki

Yes, the innermost thought is the key. Just like my innermost thought tells me to reject Ayman?s nonsense theory and your innermost thought tells you to accept Ayman?s nonsense theory. It?s that simple.

Unlike many peoples innermost thought, my innermost thought tells me to accept Quran as the guidance. That doesn?t mean I have to accept nonsense interpretation of the Quran. If you accept the fact that Quran is easy to understand then you will find many theories published on this forum to be false.

ayman

Peace Guest,

This representative extract from your post demonstrates exactly what Siki, myself and others have been trying to tell you

If I start count from the 10th month then my year looks like this

10---11---12---1---2---3---4---5---6---7---8---9
10---11---12---1---2---3---4---5---6---7---8---9

If I start count from the 8th month then my year looks like this

8---9---10---11---12---1---2---3---4---5---6---7
8---9---10---11---12---1---2---3---4---5---6---7

As you can see I am performing Ramadan at the same time within the lunar calendar even after shifting the initial month. Start of the year does not change the Ramadan time.

?Start? the count means starting at 1 so in your two examples month 10 becomes month 1 and month 8 becomes month 1, respectively. So your example should look like this

Islamic 10---11---12---1---2---3---4---5---6---7---8---9
Guest 1----2----3----4---5---6---7---8---9---10--11--12

So anyone with a little bit of intelligence can see that your month 9 (your Ramadhan) becomes month 6 (Jumada Al-thani) in the so-called Islamic Calendar. Their month 9 (the present sectarian Ramadhan) would be your month 12 (your Dhu Al-Hijja).

For your second example, it would look like this

Islamic 8---9---10---11---12---1---2---3---4---5---6---7
Guest 1---2----3----4----5---6---7---8---9---10--11--12

So now your month 9 (your Ramadhan) becomes month 4 (Rabii Al-thani) in the so-called Islamic Calendar. Their month 9 (the present sectarian Ramadhan) would be your month 2 (your Safar).

This is all clear and easy for anyone to understand. There can be two explanations for why you can?t understand such basic facts and instead demonstrate such severe mental blockage

You are in reality a 13 year old kid hiding behind a cyber ID.
You are a mature adult who is a hopeless blind follower of traditions and Mullahs and who suffers from delusions in form of a little cukoo in your head that you call ?innermost thoughts? and who is mildly retarded (probably also a little bit anti-social based on the above and your self-centered writing style).

If you are #2 then you fit the profile of someone who can be easily manipulated by Mullahs and the cukoo in your head to do some pretty bad things in return for getting 70 virgins so I sincerely hope that you are a 13 year old kid. In this case, my fatherly advice to you is to study and learn and not waste your time in participating in a forum like this one without first gaining some knowledge. When you come back in a few years you will appreciate what I am saying and you will thank me for this advice but for now there is no point in discussing with you.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman

ayman

Peace everyone,

I think that the example that Guest brought illustrates a fairly simple and obvious issue with all manmade calendars

?Start? the count means starting at 1 so in your two examples month 10 becomes month 1 and month 8 becomes month 1, respectively. So your example should look like this
Islamic 10---11---12---1---2---3---4---5---6---7---8---9
Guest 1----2----3----4---5---6---7---8---9---10--11--12
So anyone with a little bit of intelligence can see that your month 9 (your Ramadhan) becomes month 6 (Jumada Al-thani) in the so-called Islamic Calendar. Their month 9 (the present sectarian Ramadhan) would be your month 12 (your Dhu Al-Hijja).
For your second example, it would look like this
Islamic 8---9---10---11---12---1---2---3---4---5---6---7
Guest 1---2----3----4----5---6---7---8---9---10--11--12
So now your month 9 (your Ramadhan) becomes month 4 (Rabii Al-thani) in the so-called Islamic Calendar. Their month 9 (the present sectarian Ramadhan) would be your month 2 (your Safar).

The above would apply not only to the sectarian manmade calendar but also to any manmade calendar. For example, in the Gregorian calendar when February occurs also depends on manmade arbitrary decision about which month 1 the calendar started from. So had the Gregorian calendar been made to start a month later then January would be the present day February and February would be March and so on

Gregorian 2---3----4----5----6---7---8---9---10--11--12--1
Alternate 1---2----3----4----5---6---7---8---9---10--11--12

The same also applies to the arbitrary order of the months. The arbitrary manmade order of the months determines when February occurs in the same exact way that the arbitrary manmade order of the months in the sectarian calendar determines when so-called Ramadan occurs. There is ZERO logic to the order of the months in the sectarian calendar in the same way that there is ZERO logic to the order of the months in the Gregorian calendar. This is why the god doesn?t use manmade calendars for timing but uses clear cosmic phenomena that are independent of arbitrary manmade decisions. This is the simple issue that some here such as Guest, Eid, Belal and perhaps others following this thread have been struggling to grasp. Once everyone grasps this simple reality then the rest is easy.

Peace,

Ayman

belH

Ask Eid, belal and others mindlessly defending the sectarian arbitrary calendar to help you. I bet they can't answer either. You guys are so clueless that you can't even answer the simple quesiton about why your so-called Hajj happens on the 8th to the 13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah and have to make up lame excuses like "this thread is about timing of fast".

Peace all,
Ayman, are you experiencing what 19ers experiencing? Rashad Kalifa (Egyptian Man) build his theory on the assumption that Usman added two verses in chapter 9.
Now you (Egyptian Man) are building your theory on the assumption that Omer invented the Lunar Calender...will, both assumptions are not only non-Quranic, but 100% hadith in type. yes Are you a hadith follower?
Will, Both theories equal ZERO because the two were based on a fabricated assumptions.

The answer to your Hajj Question, as per Quran, Hajj can be performed any time during the four restricted months...Are you happy now...does that would help in pulling you out of your misery.

ayman

Peace Belh,

Ayman, are you experiencing what 19ers experiencing? Rashad Kalifa (Egyptian Man) build his theory on the assumption that Usman added two verses in chapter 9.
Now you (Egyptian Man) are building your theory on the assumption that Omer invented the Lunar Calender...will, both assumptions are not only non-Quranic, but 100% hadith in type. yes Are you a hadith follower?
Will, Both theories equal ZERO because the two were based on a fabricated assumptions.

It doesn't matter who invented your useless nonsensical calendar. It is a 100% manmade fabrication like the sectarian 8th-13th of Dhu Alhijja crap unless you can quote passages from the great reading that say the following things, which your false manmade timing is based on

O believers, take the date of the Hijra to start the calendar.
O believers, sorry but forget about point #1 above and don't take the actual supposed date of the Hijra to start the calendar but instead start the calendar from 3 months prior to the Hijra.
O believers, the order of the months is Muharram, Safar, Rabi' al-awwal, Rabi' al-thani, Jumada al-awwal, Jumada al-thani, Rajab, Sha'aban, Ramadan, Shawwal, Dhu al-Qi'dah, Dhu al-Hijjah.
O believers take the restricted "months" as Dhu al-Qi'dah, Dhu al-Hijjah, Muharram, and Rajab or WHATEVER (<= insert names of months here).
O believers ignore 2189 and perform your Hajj from the 8th to the 13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah or "any time during the four restricted months".
O believers ignore 1712 and don?t use day and night to determine the number of years and instead use the moon alone, which is not mentioned at all in 1712.
O believers ignore the meaning of the word ?ramadhan? and take it as meaningless nonsense.
O believers ignore 936 and instead count ?months? forever and don?t stop at 12, thereby making every month in your calendar dependent on when month 1 started. However, trick people into thinking that you are counting 12 by recycling the anyway meaningless names of the months every 12 names.

Since of course you have ZERO answers, you just keep diverting the issue with ever more bankrupt arguments. First Farida brought up the secret agent argument and then you brought up the loser argument and now the Egyptian argument. So according to you guys, the reason the Islamic Calendar is correct is that I am a "Loser Egyptian Secret Agent". Obviously, you guys are a few chickpeas short of a Hummus.

The answer to your Hajj Question, as per Quran, Hajj can be performed any time during the four restricted months...Are you happy now...does that would help in pulling you out of your misery.

This "any time" violates 2189 which clearly says that the crescents time the "hajj". Also, this doesn't change the fact that your "restricted months" are 100% arbitrary and manmade and thus depend on when some guy decided to start month 1 year 1 and decided the arbitrary order of the months. Please don't dream like guest and claim that this guy was the prophet unless you can quote passages from the great reading saying the 8 points above.

Peace,

Ayman