JALABIB in the context of v33:59
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Happy to have helped.
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Separation is often only indicative of writing technique utilized in different script formats. If you look at the Gold Quran script from Johns Hopkins library of archives, recently posted by you, you will see extensive use of separating the letters. If we look at different scripts of the word in question, can the firsr root be Jiim Lam Lam, followed by another word starting with Ba? But we have to very carefully analyze the word and keep an eye on the whole context as well.
Peace brother,
Jiim Lam Lam is not part of the word, why add tashdeed when there isn't?
And Jiim Lam alone do not exist.I am looking into ETYMON to try to explain this word.
Etymon are bi-letters that originally made the word we know.
The so called ROOT in arabic derived/are inherited from the Etymons
I will give more examples later when I will have time, I created a post called Root Theory vs Etymon Theorie.Regards
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In my reseach for the word JALABIB I found out the following
root can be JLBB then if it is the case the class for these 4 letters type root is called in arabic
These 4 letter root words are based on 3-letters roots plus the last letter doubled e.g.
becomes JALABA become JALBABA
or insering between the radicals either a
e.gformed from
reference
http//books.google.com/books?id=uFwUAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA101&lpg=PA101&dq=racine+arabe+quadrilit%C3%A8res&source=bl&ots=rtiXrIzxt2&sig=9bPX4CN2NQVnuECzk1HBuFKZR3g&hl=en&ei=QA02SrGwN9ib-gak3snQCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8Peace
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In a ARAB-French dictionnary nammed Kazimirski we can find JILBAB that also means "slave"
JILBAB any living good (cheap, goat camels or slave) that can be brought to the market and soldreference ARAB-French dictionnary Kazimirski
please if anyone can find such dictionnary online, please share.
So my suspicion was correct to think JILBAB can be someone and not something
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Dear Herbman, I was not questioning your intergarity of research. You had French, book as attachment in your post above. It was just a question, to find out, if you have come across his books English translation. I have not seen so it far.
Badar
Dear Badar,
previous post was intended for all, it was not a specific reply for you )
I was looking for this french dictionnary to proof my saying, which now is done.
For your question I still have to look for it, but in any case I use google as everyone.regards
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Peace,
Here is an hypothesis I will try to develop if God wills, and I hope you can help to support or reject this idea
I seek refuge in God against Satan the banished.
In 3359 we read the following
O prophet! tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad) that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
Dal-Nun-Waw (Dal-Nun-Alif) = To be near, come near or low, let down, be akin to.
JALABIB root is JIM-LAM-BA
Also JALIB means the he helped, he assistedAlso PR-Online take the root Jiim-Lam-Ba-Ba = Woman's outer wrapping garment, that which envelopes the whole body, wide garment for a woman, dominion or sovereignty or rule
The whole idea of the verse is to protect the women which are the weakest to be protected from offenses from offenders.
How to protect them? They have to be known, by the offenders.
Once they are known they will be no more offended.
The question is does a piece of tissue protect you against the offenders? Knowing that everyone in these time, men and women were covering their heads and body against sun.The problem is to find the correct meaning of a word which has no other reference in Qur?an, the only occurance we can find is with the root JLB.
Jiim-Lam-Ba = To drive/bring/convey/transport, to draw/attract/procure a thing, gain or earn, seek after or seek to gain, to raise cries/shouts/noises, chide or urge on, to threaten, bring together/assemble/gather/collect, commit a crime or offence, to heal, to help/aid or assist, take or borrow, to seek or demand, to cover or clad oneself.
This occurrence can be found in 1764 and means to assemble/collect/put together
In Lane?s we find JLBB under JLB and means garnement.
SO let?s take the origine of the word to try to understand the context and meaning.
The first meaning is to drive, bring one thing from one country to another or from one town to another. That supports the idea of migrating from one town to another.
So back in the context
By 9100 to 9103 we know some believers moved to Medina, they were the first and therefore a minority in a new town.
Some people from Medina were hypocrites and were therefore offending the minority.
At that time and still now in some countries/town when you are a stranger you are an easy victim for thieves/ aggressors/ offenders etc and that is why GOD promised to the offenders to be killed if they continue in their behaviors.In conclusion
My idea here is that JALABIB does not mean a piece of tissue/ garnment to protect you from the offenders but a PERSON who can help you, defend you from offenders in a foreign town and who is well known by the citizen of that town so the immigrant are safe with him.
So the verse should look like
O prophet! tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should come near/ be near/get closer/ in group from the jilbab (assistant/helper/guide of the town) So these who offend know you and therefore will not offend you and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful
This is an hypothesis and I am looking forward for yours comment to support or reject this idea.
Peace
any thought on this issue?
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Salam Herbman,
Thank you for a thought-provoking analysis. I?d like to comment on a few points, if I may.
The whole idea of the verse is to protect the women which are the weakest to be protected from offenses from offenders.
How to protect them? They have to be known, by the offenders.
Once they are known they will be no more offended.
The question is does a piece of tissue protect you against the offenders? Knowing that everyone in these time, men and women were covering their heads and body against sun.I don?t think you?re asking the right question above when you said ?the question is does one piece of cloth?? The clothing (assuming jilbab is a cloth) isn?t meant to protect her directly but to give recognition and therefore not be hurt ( ن
In that capacity, a piece of clothing would be fine.
Jiim-Lam-Ba = To drive/bring/convey/transport, to draw/attract/procure a thing, gain or earn, seek after or seek to gain, to raise cries/shouts/noises, chide or urge on, to threaten, bring together/assemble/gather/collect, commit a crime or offence, to heal, to help/aid or assist, take or borrow, to seek or demand, to cover or clad oneself.
This occurrence can be found in 1764 and means to assemble/collect/put together
What if the ?ajlib? in17/64 meant ?to draw/attract?? 17/64 would then read
And beguile whomsoever of them you can with your voice, and draw attention on them your forces riding and on foot, and share with them in wealth and children, and hold out promises to them; and the Shaitan makes not promises to them but to deceiveThis would mean that jilbab in 33/59 would be any item which shows recognition that these women are protected. That would fit better with the context, as in 33/60 it says
Truly, if the Hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and those who stir up sedition in the City, desist not, We shall certainly stir thee up against them Then will they not be able to stay in it as thy neighbours for any length of time
If the believing women already had guides or protectors, then there won?t be any need for this statement.
I really like your study into etymons though. I hope you will keep us updated on that. I feel that modern grammar and morphological rules have stifled the natural flexibility of Quran?s own Arabic and stopped it from being explained better. A good example is this JLB and JLBB thing.Thanks.
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Salam, Peace,
First of all, thanks for your feedback.
Salam Herbman,
Thank you for a thought-provoking analysis. I?d like to comment on a few points, if I may.
I don?t think you?re asking the right question above when you said ?the question is does one piece of cloth?? The clothing (assuming jilbab is a cloth) isn?t meant to protect her directly but to give recognition and therefore not be hurt ( ن
In that capacity, a piece of clothing would be fine.
I think you are right this is to be informed and be recognized, better to inform and avoid any clash.
Also I know in some countries, the veil do not stop men shagging women. I even knew people looking only for girl wearing the veil. I would say "when you have disease in heart" nothing can stop you not even a veil, but maybe "someone stronger" can.I would like you to focus on the following term
, how would you translate this, I would translate it by "this nearness", or "closeness", or "vicinity". Can you say that about a garment?
please see http//dictionary.sakhr.com/SearchResults.aspx?Lang=A-E&TextBox1=
What if the ?ajlib? in17/64 meant ?to draw/attract?? 17/64 would then read
And beguile whomsoever of them you can with your voice, and draw attention on them your forces riding and on foot, and share with them in wealth and children, and hold out promises to them; and the Shaitan makes not promises to them but to deceiveThis would mean that jilbab in 33/59 would be any item which shows recognition that these women are protected. That would fit better with the context, as in 33/60 it says
Truly, if the Hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and those who stir up sedition in the City, desist not, We shall certainly stir thee up against them Then will they not be able to stay in it as thy neighbours for any length of time
where you get the attention from?
I agree with "to draw/attract" it is the same idea as assemble/gather/collect and are all translation of JLB
If the believing women already had guides or protectors, then there won?t be any need for this statement.
Thanks.
Yes you are right, the verse just advice "get closer" maybe after an incident that occured, who knows?
Also I would like to add this, in middle east at that time everybody was wearing the veil (men and women) to protect against the sun so why God will ask prophete's women to "get their jilbab closer", were they that "indecent"?
regards
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Salam, Peace,
First of all, thanks for your feedback.And thanks for your research. I appreciate it.
I think you are right this is to be informed and be recognized, better to inform and avoid any clash.
Yes, its like a warning for munafiqeen.
Also I know in some countries, the veil do not stop men shagging women. I even knew people looking only for girl wearing the veil. I would say "when you have disease in heart" nothing can stop you not even a veil, but maybe "someone stronger" can.
Lol, I don?t think you?re allowed to say ?shagging? in this forum. Maybe ?harassing? or ?molesting?? But anyway?
33/59 is directed for the Prophet to tell his spouses, daughters, and believing women so I would say these women are sincere women.
I would also ask, can someone stronger help if these women really meant to do fahisha ?
I would like you to focus on the following term
, how would you translate this, I would translate it by "this nearness", or "closeness", or "vicinity". Can you say that about a garment?
please see http//dictionary.sakhr.com/SearchResults.aspx?Lang=A-E&TextBox1=
But brother, this ayah doesn?t end there. It says ? . So it?s ?dhalika adna an yu?rafna fala yu?dzayna? which I translate to be ?that is nearer to being recognised and so not being hurt?. However, you may ask me why is it ?adna? and not ?aqraba? and I won?t be able to tell you why.
where you get the attention from?
I had to put it in there as a literal word-for-word wouldn?t make sense.
I agree with "to draw/attract" it is the same idea as assemble/gather/collect and are all translation of JLB
Could be, yes. But I would need to ask, why is it ?ajlibu? and not ?ajma?u??
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Woman has two areas, despite being dressed nicely, which attract the attention of men in the street; bosoms and the waist/hips. Inside the house they are advised to keep a shawl over the bosoms and while going in the street/out of house they should drop their unstitched bigger shawl downwards so that in addition to bosoms the lower attractive contour also not remains visible and provocative that some debauch/ill mannered person may sexually harrass or pass an embarrasing remark. Properly wrapped body blurring the contours would introduce the lady to the people in the street as a modest one and she will not have to feel embarrassed by the penetrating looks which many men can't avoid if the lady in the street is exposing her bosoms and waist contours.
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If the Jilbab is just to avoid "harassment", why then in the following verses 60,61,62 God says if they continue they will be killed! Do you think harassment punishment is death?
3360
Truly if the Hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and those who stir up sedition in the City, desist not, We shall certainly stir thee up against them then will they not be able to stay in it as thy neighbours for any length of time3361
They shall have a curse on them wherever they are found, they shall be seized and slain (without mercy).3362
(Such was) the practice (approved) of Allah among those who lived aforetime no change wilt thou find in the practice (approved) of AllahIf it such your understanding, there are a lot of people to condamn by death in streets of Cairo, Tunis, or Casablanca etc, very well known for sexual harassment!!!!!!!!
My understanding is this "harassment" was physical and to avoid that you need "physical" presence to be safe.
God bless