What if you kill a non-believer?
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Simple. I'm sorry but your translation above doesn't seem to cohere with 91. 91 is God giving immunity to those from the mushrikeen with whom the believers have a covenant. So why is 92 is telling them to keep doing what they're doing? Mind you, the traditional understanding (which is giving them 4 months) doesn't make much sense either.
Perhaps you can tell us your understanding of 91-12, if you don't mind?
Sorry it takes too long to translate word for word.
Just to give you vague picture of what I think.
9, 1-2.
Freedom from Allah to those you made a treaty of the murderous thugs.
So go do what you will but now that Allah will catch you out and disgrace you.
9, 3-5.
A declaration from Allah to mankind, that for a peaceful outcome Allah is free from obligations to the murderous thugs but if they repent it is better for them and if they don?t there awaits them severe consequences .Except for those murderous thugs who keep to their part of the treaty.
When and if they ever go on a rampage sought them out till they come to the counsel table and undertake their part of the treaty.911
But (even so), if they repent, establish counsel, and abide by the decisions, - they are your brethren in Faith (thus) do We explain the Signs in detail, for those who understand.God Bless.
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Ok thank you Simple.
You mentioned that 92 reads 'so wander freely with your heavy-handed approach'. How did you translate 'arba'atun ashhuhur' here as 'heavy handed? Can you please explain ?
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peace,
I think the contexts of both passages are very similar. Recently but briefly discussed here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9765.msg223199#msg223199Peace W,
I agree the contexts are similar but I doubt they refer to the same event as you said in the thread above. My reasons are as follows
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To me, Anfal and Tauba are one single chapter since there?s no basmala between them. I refer to them as ?chapter 8/9? for convenience?s sake (otherwise I?ll have to refer to Yunus as chapter 9, hud as chapter 10 etc). Since it?s one chapter to me, I don?t think it refers to the same event since one chapter usually has one rendition of a single event.
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Again using the ?chapter 8/9 theory?, the overall theme of chapter 8/9 is what I believe to be systemic warfare, the war between the system truth and falsehood. I believe that the thematic content of chapter 8/9 is progressive. 8/1-69 shows a balanced conflict but from 8/70-9/129, the upper hand is clearly with the believers.
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8/29-44 shows , as I said above, as even handed conflict and it uses phrases like
a. Kafireen plot against believers to keep them in bonds, to kill them and to kidnap them (ayah 30)
b. They are still performing istighfar which are some acts which still afford them God?s protection (33)
c. They hinder people from masjid al-haram which is a place where the hurumaat of Allah are in place. So at this point, masjid al-haram does not yet exist (34)
d. God tells believers to fight them until there is no more fitnah , so there must still be fitnah at that point (39)-
9/1-22 on the other hand, is in a passage which starts from 8/70 onwards. You can see the following in 8/70-75 the following the elements
a. The nabiy has ?asraa? which I take to mean people in his bond (ayah 70)
b. It means emigration (72)
c. It mentions seeking the prophets aid in deen (72) -
9/1-22 contains elements which are distinctly absent from 8/1-69
a. Bara?ah or immunity can be given to mushriks (ayah 1)
b. It mentions ?yaum al-hajj al-akbar? which I interpret to mean a period where God?s system which is greater (akbar) than the system of falsehood is in place The mushrikeen are told to return to it, showing once again believers are in power (3)
c. Believers are told that once mushrikeen make tauba, establish salah and bring zakat, to open the way for them. Opening the way implies power (5)
d. The treaty between believers and mushrikeen can only be by masjidil-haraam which I take to mean that it can only happen once the believers have their own functional system with God?s hurumaat in place (7).
e. The implications the presence of masjd al-haraam is mentioned as the opposite of the state where mushrikeen are ?yazhiroo alaikum?/prominent over you.( 8 ) ?Zahiroo ala? is mentioned in ayaat like 9/33, 61/9 and 48/28 which not coincidentally, mushrikeen are mentioned too.
So Wakas, while I agree the context is similar (i.e. the conflict between believers and kafireen in a systemic sense), I don?t think they are the same scenario at all. Thanks for the discussion though, I saw a few things I hadn?t seen before when I wrote this post.
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Ok thank you Simple.
You mentioned that 92 reads 'so wander freely with your heavy-handed approach'. How did you translate 'arba'atun ashhuhur' here as 'heavy handed? Can you please explain ?
In order to embody a calendar system based on the moon which Hindus used they have in-avertedly re-invented meanings of the quran, there are no four holy months or anything - i think.
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume4/00000336.pdf
Shahr isn?t a month in the quran but the approach of people towards one another, how they interact.
Arba isn?t necessarily the number four but can mean heavy extreme weighty tangible apart from other things, there seem to be four pages in lanes as to what it can be at various time.
'arba'atun ashhuhur' confused
peace
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In order to embody a calendar system based on the moon which Hindus used they have in-avertedly re-invented meanings of the quran, there are no four holy months or anything - i think.
I agree that in the traditional reading, i.e. giving mushrikeen 4 months, it doesn?t make sense to me. Why would you give them 4 months? Why not make it an indefinite peace treaty? I?ve never been comfortable with that interpretation. Another that doesn't make sense to me is why 9/36 which talks about 12 months has to be said at all. Perhaps there is something in your interpretation but we must go through the proper procedure to confirm your findings. I think to say they were trying to copy the hindus isn?t a valid argument. Hinduism has many things which Quran also has, like the concept of karma. The only way for us to prove this new understanding is by checking language resources (which you have done, I think) and seeing if it fits.
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume4/00000336.pdf
Shahr isn?t a month in the quran but the approach of people towards one another, how they interact.
Approach of how people interact? Even this link you provided says ?something known, public? so I can?t see how you arrived at your conclusion.
Furthermore what about shahru ramadhan in which there?s an actually count of days to fulfil (2185)?
Arba isn?t necessarily the number four but can mean heavy extreme weighty tangible apart from other things, there seem to be four pages in lanes as to what it can be at various time.
What root did you look up for this ? Ra-ba-ain ?
How do you read 9/36-37 please?
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In order to embody a calendar system based on the moon which Hindus used they have in-avertedly re-invented meanings of the quran, there are no four holy months or anything - i think.
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume4/00000336.pdf
Shahr isn?t a month in the quran but the approach of people towards one another, how they interact.
Arba isn?t necessarily the number four but can mean heavy extreme weighty tangible apart from other things, there seem to be four pages in lanes as to what it can be at various time.
'arba'atun ashhuhur' confused
peaceTwo of the description of the meaning say;
Signifying the appearance or the publicity of a thing or its appearance as bad evil abominable or unseemly?..
2.
An evil thing that exposes its author to disgrace, any disgraceful or shameful thing a vice or a fault or the like.And looking at the other meanings you can conclude that it is the people?s actions that are displaying such acts.
If you look at the Ramadan ayah then look to what the root means (Ramadz) rather then just shahr.
Here is one trans someone did;
2185
of your parading cast/throw the evilness /niggerdilness /stinginess that was revealed in it the quran a guidance for mankind and clear proofs of the guidance and the criterion ,who whosoever witnesses amongst you such parading he should abstain(remove/ expunge) it??for Ruba?a
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume3/00000181.pdf
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume3/00000182.pdf
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume3/00000183.pdf
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume3/00000184.pdf
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume3/00000185.pdf
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume3/00000186.pdfpeace
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Two of the description of the meaning say;
Signifying the appearance or the publicity of a thing or its appearance as bad evil abominable or unseemly?..
2.
An evil thing that exposes its author to disgrace, any disgraceful or shameful thing a vice or a fault or the like.And looking at the other meanings you can conclude that it is the people?s actions that are displaying such acts.
If the meaning itself is ?publicity of an evil thing?, then its referring to the thing itself, not the cause of the thing. I?m afraid I can?t agree with how you conclude this.
If you look at the Ramadan ayah then look to what the root means (Ramadz) rather then just shahr.
Here is one trans someone did
2185
of your parading cast/throw the evilness /niggerdilness /stinginess that was revealed in it the quran a guidance for mankind and clear proofs of the guidance and the criterion ,who whosoever witnesses amongst you such parading he should abstain(remove/ expunge) it??I?m afraid I have a few issues here. Firstly, ?abstain it? doesn?t mean ?remove it?, there is a word for remove or expunge (ikhraj). Secondly he?s not taking into account the phrase in this ayah which reads He does not want to put to difficulties. (He wants you) to complete the count. What is this count, in your view?
What is your understanding of 9/36-37 please?
Thanks for the ruba?a reference. Will study it. But it?s also used in 9/36 as ?four? unless you translate it differently there. I?m very interested in your view.
I appreciate you find the usual translations illogical and so do I. However, we need to systematically find the right terms and make sure they fit the overall contexts.
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Hahaha... you are funny dude!
Anwar Azim
You like bon jovi? (the band)
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Yes I do...
"Shot through the heart, and your to blame
You give love a bad name"Anwar Azim
I love those hair bands of the 80s
"we gotta hold on to what we've got.
It doesn't even matter if we make it or not.
we've got each other and that a lot for love
we'll give it a shot
oh! we're half way there,
oh OH LIVING ON A PRAYER"I love their lyrics.
